Christina Carlson

Written By Charlie Ocean
 
 
 

Do work on your own shame. This week, Christina Carlson (she/they) talks about how being ex-religious has impacted her life. In this episode, you will learn 1. How people are taught to distrust themselves, the harmful systems that upholds, and the additional layers for queer and trans people 2. The impacts of not seeing yourself reflected around you 3. Why we should celebrate ourselves every chance we get.

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Full Transcript

[00:00:00] Chris Angel Murphy: Well, hello there. I'm Chris Angel, and my pronouns are they/them. Welcome to Allyship is a Verb, a podcast for people practicing allyship for the LGBTQ+ community and beyond!

[00:00:25] Christina Carlson: Hello, my name is Christina Carlson, and my pronouns are she/they.

[00:00:29] Chris Angel Murphy: Christina is a Certified Life and Energy Coach specializing in self relationship. They have a podcast called "Bitches, Witches, and Queers," which features people who live outside of patriarchal and capitalistic norms. We met online through a podcast directory that helps guests and shows find each other. And I am so glad we got a chance to connect because we were able to talk about some things that I've had conversations with close friends about, but not so much publicly. Also, she's just really fucking cool.

And now it's time for self-reflection questions. Here are three for you to mull over while listening to our conversation and be sure to stick after for three more to take with you.

1. What's an identity I claim, that I define differently from others? What is my definition?

2. What kind of intelligence do I believe I have? And don't you dare say none! I say that lovingly. (laughs)

3. Do I carry any religious trauma?

And now our conversation.

You are queer, neurodiverse, and ex-religious. What do those intersections mean to you?

[00:02:00] Christina Carlson: I love this question because every word and every definition means something different to everyone. To me, queerness is a space of difference and a space of being undefined. And I really identify as queer, more specifically than bisexual or whatever other thing might actually technically define me, because queer feels like the openness of possibility. And most of my life, I've felt like who I am can't quite be defined. Not because you can't know me, but because I feel like an ever-evolving being; that there's always more to uncover.

Neurodiverse is a semi-new discovery for me. I got an official diagnosis in January of this year, but I've thought for a while just because I've had a lot of friends who have been getting a diagnosis or realizing that. I realized after getting a diagnosis, looking back at my entire childhood, how much more sense I make. (laughs) Compared to my brother and sister, my parents thought I was just not that smart, because my intelligence is that of inter- and intrapersonal because that's what interested me. And I really had no interest in math and, you know, it's whatever my brain decided was interesting was what was interesting.

So my intelligence looked different. And because of that, I thought naturally that I was just not a very smart person. And that really influenced a lot of how I saw myself and my confidence in doing things in life. I didn't pursue academics or things that I would've found important or valuable to me because I thought that I wouldn't succeed at them.

And looking back on my life, I have a lot more compassion for myself. Now knowing that I'm neurodiverse, I'm like, "Oh, I make a lot more sense." (both laugh)

[00:04:01] Chris Angel Murphy: Yeah.

[00:04:02] Christina Carlson: Ex-religious to me is, is an identifier that I feel like is phasing out, but is still a rather important part of my experience; because it helps to find me in a niche group of people that were raised in a very specific - with a very specific kind of shame.

There was a lot of explicit statements that within Western culture as a whole are more subversive; whereas like for us it was just like really on the nose. Like "your body is bad and sinful" and, like "you can go to hell" and like this very overt like, shame forced on us in a very unique way that had a lot of like doomsday ideology and a lot of fear-based - everything was fear-based and it had a very us-versus-them mentality.

Even though if you grew up in patriarchal culture of any kind, you're going to have similar, a similar worldview as far as like shame and as far as capitalism, like those things are kind of intertwined, or a lot of intertwined. The experience that I have as someone who's ex-religious is gonna have a niche form of trauma, religious trauma. (laughs)

[00:05:15] Chris Angel Murphy: Yeah, that's fair.

[00:05:17] Christina Carlson: Yeah.

[00:05:19] Chris Angel Murphy: You recently wrote a post on Instagram saying, and this is a direct quote, "You are not a thing to be fixed. You are a being meant to be experienced." How do you hope people experience you?

[00:05:33] Christina Carlson: Like art. Maybe because of how I was raised, or my parents or whatever, my instinct has always been to control things, right? I wanna control the narrative. I wanna control how I'm perceived. I wanna control my environment. You know, it's, it's this desire for safety that we think comes from a perceived experience of control.

But what I've realized, the biggest impact I have is when I say something and let it go, like art. I don't expect myself to be experienced in one way anymore, but rather I am a being that people will experience with their own beauty and bullshit. (both laugh)

They're just, they're just going to project and see and get whatever they want or need from being near me, and that will reflect mostly who they are, what they see in me. But I hope to be an experience that people feel mostly more seen and more, permission to be human.

[00:06:38] Chris Angel Murphy: The human in me is saying "Beauty and Bullshit" would make a really good podcast title.

[00:06:43] Christina Carlson: Oh my god, I'm writing that down.

[00:06:45] Chris Angel Murphy: (laughs) I think that's one of the scary things, cause I know you're a podcaster too, is just sometimes you'll hear something and I feel like formerly I would've said, "Oh, that's a great band name." And now I'm like, "No, that's a great name for a podcast." (both laugh)

[00:06:57] Christina Carlson: Oh my god.

[00:06:58] Chris Angel Murphy: Those are easier to start.

[00:06:59] Christina Carlson: The two are the same.

[00:07:00] Chris Angel Murphy: Yeah. (laughs)

[00:07:01] Christina Carlson: It's the same thing.

[00:07:03] Chris Angel Murphy: Mm-hmm.

[00:07:03] Christina Carlson: We never grew up. (laughs)

[00:07:04] Chris Angel Murphy: No. Speaking of safety on another post you wrote, and another direct quote is, "You were born trusting yourself, and were taught to distrust yourself as a way to find safety. So there is a part of you, at your core, that knows how to trust yourself and that will always be there."

What do you think are some ways queer people in particular are taught to distrust themselves?

[00:07:31] Christina Carlson: My instinct is just to say every way. From the moment that we're born, we're put - I mean from the moment before we're born, if we're gonna talk gender reveal - there's like this, this concept of who we are "supposed to be," how we're spoken to, that can either validate or completely invalidate our experience with ourselves.

And if we have caregivers or a culture or - and a culture, one or the other - that isn't able to mirror our goodness to us and our trustworthiness to us, isn't willing to trust that we know ourselves, it breeds distrust because the people that feed us and clothe us and support us and keep us safe are telling us that we can't be trusted.

[00:08:23] Chris Angel Murphy: Hmm.

[00:08:24] Christina Carlson: And I think that's a huge, that's a huge part of it. Representation is something, obviously, that impacts that. If we don't see ourselves reflected in media or in stories, we tend to write ourselves out of narratives or we don't see those things as possible for us, and that's true of any marginalized community.

Honestly, it's painful to think about when you go back and think of how you weren't given the option. Like most of the time we're not given the option. It's like, In some ways it's like, it's even more subtle; like, I was just told I was pretty a lot and I was told I was sweet. And when I was quiet I was praised for being polite and sweet. It's like that "positive affirmation," quote unquote, but only for the things that other people approved of.

And because I'm smart I picked up on that. And I think that's a lot of us ,we're just like, "Oh, like I'm safer. I get more affection and attention if I do the things that they want me to do. Whereas when I'm being myself and being loud and laughing at fart jokes, it's a problem for them." (laughs)

[00:09:38] Chris Angel Murphy: Mm-hmm.

[00:09:38] Christina Carlson: You know, and it's like, it can be so simple. And then there's the conversations of like, you're gonna grow up and marry a "nice man," quote unquote. Like there's just one path that's shown you. I don't think people realize how damaging that can be. When it's just told to you instead of you being asked, like kids are so often not asked questions.

I'm always asking my daughter, "Do you feel like a boy or a girl or nonbinary or both or either?" (laughs) she's always said, "I'm a girl" and I'm like, "okay." But like the choice, the choice other people choosing for you who you are is extremely damaging. And I think that disconnects us from trusting ourselves.

[00:10:29] Chris Angel Murphy: I think of kids. One narrative I've seen and experienced myself is that, yeah, kids are to be seen and not heard. And then another thread of that is that you don't know anything cause you're young, you'll find out when you're older. And it's like we overlook the wisdom of children so often, especially parents and caregivers. They'll assume like, "Oh, they don't know what's going on in the household. And you know, I'm staying here to keep the marriage together for the kids." But like the kids hear and see things, absolutely, and then they can internalize it too if they don't have anyone to connect with about that.

[00:11:09] Christina Carlson: Yeah.

[00:11:09] Chris Angel Murphy: And then I just see that snowballing into life, like just later on.

[00:11:15] Christina Carlson: Yeah. We tend to base our relationships in life; out of our examples of the early relationships that we have. So those are the patterns that we learned of how to operate. So if we have parents who like hate each other and stay together, we're more likely to stay in a dissatisfying relationship just because - it's so subconscious. It's just like, "This is what people do." Right, like "This is what real love is." Or whatever it is, like we have these stories because that's what we were shown in our earliest stages of life.

[00:11:51] Chris Angel Murphy: Yeah. It's something that was normalized for us. So then we see that as something that's comforting because we already know how that goes.

[00:11:58] Christina Carlson: Also, like if you were the parent in that scenario and you've - I know of a friend whose dad is Bi, but he doesn't validate his sexuality; it's closeted and he condemns it. The impact of that, then, is that he's more oppressive of people who validate their own sexuality because he's oppressing his, and so he's more overt in being oppressive.

When you lose something for the sake of something else, it's like every time you do that, every time you "sacrifice yourself" for a cause that feels in dissonance with who you are, you're building a wall; it gets harder and harder to break down.

[00:12:47] Chris Angel Murphy: How do we recognize what that messaging looks like, as far as when we're taught to just trust ourselves? In particular, when it's like sneaky or more subtle.

[00:12:59] Christina Carlson: There's a concept called the "persona" from Prof. G's work "You Are a Dream." It's called the dreaming method, I believe, but he talks about the ego described as a persona, and it's slightly different than the ego, but it's a very similar concept.

It pops up anytime we set a goal that we haven't done before. It will pop up and it'll sound a lot like us, but you know, it's the ego because it prevents you from getting towards your goal. You notice it because it, it uses your logic, but it keeps you in the same place. I feel like that could apply here as well. And it's not always negative either. It'll just say, "Oh, you don't wanna risk that you, you already have a good thing going. You feel safe here." You know, you don't know what's out there and you haven't experienced that, but it's gonna keep you from trusting yourself.

So if your desire is to deeply trust yourself, you're gonna notice those subtle things pop up as ways to look out for you, as ways to keep you safe, as ways to serve a different cause that you actually care about, but rooted in that distrust, because it's gonna keep you where you're at.

[00:14:08] Chris Angel Murphy: When you're working with your clients, especially on the trust piece, is part of that asking them where they feel that signal in their body of, "Oh, maybe I shouldn't trust this person." Because like, I know for me, I tend to feel that in my stomach. I've heard some other people experience that in their stomach, but you know, we're all different. So I'd be curious to know if like, yeah, if that's a conversation you've had and where it can show up for people in their bodies?

[00:14:39] Christina Carlson: Yeah, it is different for everyone, and I'd say two different things, depending on where you're at with trusting yourself. I think bringing your attention back to your bodily sensations in general is important. So recognizing when you need to go pee. Practicing noticing earlier and earlier, as soon as you notice that doing something about it.

Recognizing your thirst, drinking water, doing those very simple things and noticing how you feel when you do them, is a way of establishing that your body can trust you.

[00:15:08] Chris Angel Murphy: I thought it was really interesting that Christina brought up these specific cues because for folks who are ADHDers, those can be some cues that we ignore. Not necessarily intentionally though, like maybe we're hyper focusing through a project; we're in a really good flow and we don't wanna stop. We experienced something then called "Time Blindness," and we can forget to use the restroom to eat, to even drink water when it's right in front of us. And this is a real thing. Literally, my friends and I will send each other memes at different times to remind each other to stay hydrated.

[00:15:52] Christina Carlson: So in doing that, you're creating this relationship of safety like this has needs, my body has needs, and when I get the signals, I can do something. And so your body's like, "Oh, we're kind of safe here." And so it starts to signal you a little bit more because it knows that something is going to be done about that if that's already established.

It can be helpful to notice where in your life you feel a real "fuck yes." So is there a space in your life where you're just like, "I love this." Like you love doing drag, you love dancing, you love roller skating. Like how do you feel when you do that? Like what is that sensation like? Go ahead and try it again. And notice those sensations, like while you're doing it and afterwards, what is the feeling? Do it many times, anchor into that feeling. Because anchoring into the feeling of the good there, that joy of that experience, it gets easier and easier to recognize anything that's not like that. That's like your "fuck yes."

And from there there's this layer of like, these things are are good and okay, and then you get to this point and you're like, "I hate this." The bad gets less and less tolerable because what you're doing is you are integrating the positive into your body. It's like there is a form of safety and as you notice those things, you just start to notice all of it.

[00:17:16] Chris Angel Murphy: Sounds like a really great exercise.

[00:17:19] Christina Carlson: It's fun. (both laugh)

[00:17:21] Chris Angel Murphy: Except for when it's not, but yes.

[00:17:23] Christina Carlson: Except for when it's not. (both laugh)

[00:17:26] Chris Angel Murphy: Scrolling through queer and trans Instagram accounts, I see a number of folks struggling to have a positive relationship with their bodies for a multitude of reasons. What do you think is special about working with clients at those intersections? Are there things you see that are similar, like larger themes that come out of it?

[00:17:49] Christina Carlson: Well, one thing you'll notice that's a privilege for people who are quote unquote "supported fully" by society, like white, straight, het people, is that even when they have body issues, they have reflections outside of themselves that can support them growing into a form of safety and support in their body.

For a lot of trans folks and queer folks, there's not as many examples of what that can look like. So you don't have support externally as often reflecting to you that you are good and your body is safe and okay. So you're dealing with a lot more levels of oppression and therefore you have to, you have to work harder to create a space of internal safety and build a network of support around you to remind you that what is reflected to you is not accurate.

It's really shitty to be in a space where your identity is not validated cause you feel that, you feel that in your bones; and just because it's being expressed and reflected to you doesn't mean it's true. It takes, I feel like a significant amount of work to be able to be with that and then come back to yourself. And call in people that you need to in front of you to remind you of who you are and that your identity is valid. Like, have those people that you can call and say like, "Just been invalidated again, I need you to reflect my goodness to me right now because this is fucking hard."

Because it is like, it's not - there's just extra layers when you don't get to see yourself reflected around you and supported. It's just so natural - it's something that some people just have so fluid as breathing, they don't realize how devastating it is when it's not there. I think there is extra support and extra work needed and attention to creating a network and a, a plan even, for when this stuff happens, so that you know how to come back to yourself and find that support in community and within your own body.

[00:20:07] Chris Angel Murphy: That's definitely something that resonates with me, because understanding my queer and nonbinary identities I've gotten used to, in some cases, like just constantly not being seen, cause most people think I look like a, a guy, and a white guy at that may be gay. And that, you know, can be good or bad depending who's picking up on that or thinking they're picking up on that. But then because of the pandemic, it offered me this really unique opportunity to grow a lot outside of the eyes of people watching me.

[00:20:40] Christina Carlson: Mm-hmm.

[00:20:40] Chris Angel Murphy: So just like spending a lot of time at home and being self-reflective. But I've noticed as I'm trying, more and more to integrate into society again, especially as someone who's also immunocompromised - so there's that piece as well - I find that I almost kind of just hate leaving my home now. I feel like there's just too much like, prep work I have to do to prepare myself for all of these ways I'm going to be invalidated and it's become a huge problem.

And I've noticed if I have an anchor buddy, that helps a lot. Because I can't even go on a walk and enjoy myself and be present because I'm just, I'm thinking about too many things and I'm too worried about how people are perceiving me and if I'm a threat to people or if there's a threat near me or what - and it, yeah, it just gets to be like too much. Yeah, I really need an anchor buddy. I let the anchor buddy know, especially if it's like a big event or something like that to be like, "Hey, can you show up for me in this way?" That helps a lot, but that's not always an option.

[00:21:38] Christina Carlson: I think people underestimate the capacity it takes to exist differently in a society that is terrified of difference.

What you're describing, like bringing someone along with you is fucking brilliant because that energy of another person who validates you can literally be the world. It's like having a parent when you're a little kid and you're going somewhere and you're like, "Well, they'll keep me safe" or "They believe me." that's huge and can be everything. And I understand like, you know, can't always have someone who's with you, but it does make a significant difference.

[00:22:17] Chris Angel Murphy: You know, some folks could be listening to us right now and be like, "Well, that's codependent."

[00:22:21] Christina Carlson: No.

[00:22:21] Chris Angel Murphy: Is it codependence or is it healing through community because I'm having a positive experience with this person and they're showing up for me in this way. And especially again, if it's like a big event or something, I'm like, "Hey, I need you to be my anchor buddy." Cause I want them to consent to that, but -

[00:22:37] Christina Carlson: Right.

[00:22:38] Chris Angel Murphy: I don't need a lot from them other than just, even just to physically be there. And that's so grounding for me because, yeah then I'm not having to compartmentalize who I am as much.

[00:22:47] Christina Carlson: Yeah. You mentioning co-dependence I think is really interesting; because if you view what you're describing as co-dependence, I would say you're leaning into hyper-individualism, which is rooted in capitalism and white supremacy.

[00:23:02] Chris Angel Murphy: Yep.

[00:23:02] Christina Carlson: Because we are meant to be in community. We are meant to be reliant on one another. We're meant to live that way. If, if we don't need people, there's a fucking problem. It's just that we're in denial. (laughs)

[00:23:16] Chris Angel Murphy: Yeah.

[00:23:17] Christina Carlson: It's a beautiful thing to depend on people, and most people depend on people. If you don't, you're isolated. Yeah, I guess it's also ableist culture to assume that people should be completely independent.

[00:23:29] Chris Angel Murphy: Yeah.

[00:23:30] Christina Carlson: It's not reasonable for anyone to do their life entirely independently and not have needs of other humans. It's actually very interdependent to ask for your needs to be met with consent by another person; that's so healthy. That's incredibly healthy communication.

[00:23:51] Chris Angel Murphy: You know, you'll hear stories about how people feel so good that they were able to help someone, but when they need the help, they're not always likely to ask cause they feel like they have to do it themselves. And it's like, well, what if you gave people around you the gift of helping you out so that they can also feel good?

[00:24:08] Christina Carlson: Yeah, it's rooted in white saviorism and white supremacy, of course, that we'll help people cause we wanna feel good about helping people, but in that process we are looking down on the people that we're helping as people who have needs. And we're in denial of our own needs, so we think that we're better than - it's, yeah, it's fucked. (laughs)

[00:24:27] Chris Angel Murphy: Well, I mean - and so my bachelor's and masters is in social work, but I've really deviated from what I've learned to be social work because it's rooted in all those same things. It took me a while to come to that conclusion, selfishly - which I don't think is a bad thing - selfishly, I was looking for my own healing and my own way of working myself out of my own situations that I was either born into or grew up with, et cetera, or was self-imposed. So I, I wanted concrete tools for how to work my way out of that and a more macro, so bigger picture, community-based and focused but -

[00:25:06] Christina Carlson: Yeah.

[00:25:06] Chris Angel Murphy: What I found was almost any nonprofit I would work at, it just felt like I was perpetuating the same harm to clients without realizing it, because it's like, "Well, you know, we'll help you, but you have to meet certain criteria and you have to do it this way."

Especially when you look into things like people experiencing homelessness. Gosh, not everyone was eligible to get services at one place I was working at as an intern because we had to believe that they were likely to have some sort of income so that they could go into more stable housing, cause we were like a middle ground of sorts just to get them started there. But that meant that, you know, federally, the government was like, "Well you have to have like this percentage of people that fit that criteria and move on." So it was like 70 something percent or whatever at the time, I think, and that just felt really gross to me.

So it's like people need a bed, we have them whether or not they can move on to more stable housing because they're able to get an income or not, you know, through general relief or whatever the program is like, it just feels really gross. We have a bed and there's a person who needs it, and so, yeah. Then you know, as I've been looking back and just like - or like when we're mandatory reporters and have to do wellness checks on people and stuff like that. Like I just, I don't, I don't agree with it anymore, cause if they didn't consent to that, I don't wanna do it.

So why do I get in trouble for not following some supposed rule, when that person doesn't want the police to show up? Cause, let's be honest, it's not gonna be social workers, it's probably gonna be police. So yeah, these systems that are meant to help people, I think can hurt them more than help them. Especially if we're not trusting that person to know what they need and helping them to get that fulfilled, versus "Oh, but we want you to focus on this because data, because whatever." You know, like if that's not what that person wants. So yeah, I don't know if I made any sense.

[00:27:08] Christina Carlson: You did.

[00:27:08] Chris Angel Murphy: But I have a lot of issues with social work now as a profession because I think it can do so much better. But it's, yeah, it's perpetuating the same systems like police, et cetera, that are harming the people we're trying to serve. And that I just, that doesn't feel good to me.

[00:27:23] Christina Carlson: I have so many thoughts. (both laugh)

[00:27:27] Chris Angel Murphy: Yeah.

[00:27:28] Christina Carlson: Yes. Okay. So, so many things in there. I love that you have a background in this. I am fascinated by it because there is a lot of philosophies within the teachings of social work that I 1000% agree with.

[00:27:41] Chris Angel Murphy: Yeah.

[00:27:41] Christina Carlson: But when you get into the systems and the actual NGOs and the people doing the work, like those systems are just as fucked as the ones they're trying to fix. But, What you're talking about with homelessness, it's like they're basically asking, "Can you prove your worth -"

[00:27:58] Chris Angel Murphy: Yeah.

[00:27:58] Christina Carlson: "So that you can have a bed?" Like there's not trust in there. The way that poverty is looked at in our country is that you did something wrong.

[00:28:06] Chris Angel Murphy: Mm-hmm.

[00:28:07] Christina Carlson: You did something wrong to be there and they're not taking, like the government, our country, is not taking the responsibility that they need to be taking for the fact that they put them there.

[00:28:17] Chris Angel Murphy: Yeah.

[00:28:18] Christina Carlson: Like the systems that weren't strong enough to support and hold them are the reason that they're there. They came back from, you know, the war and they had no mental health support, so they couldn't get what they needed and then you're blaming them for "choices that they made." But it's like, if - hmmm. (laughs)

[00:28:38] Chris Angel Murphy: Well, and it's such a hot button issue too, because even if you take something as like the "deserving poor," which feels gross coming outta my mouth, right. I remember, and I was kind of raised to believe this myself for a while, but that, "Well, if this person has an iPhone, they can't really be homeless." Right?

And it's like, okay, well first off, maybe they already had that. Secondly, it's almost a necessity at this point, because if you're trying to get jobs because you have to prove you're worthy of getting help and support or whatever, right, then you're gonna need it cause you need to make phone calls. You need to be available, you need to be able to send emails, and you also have to have an address for a lot of services. And so, like, if you can't get an address, not everyone can just afford to get a PO box at, you know, USPS or any of those, FedEx wherever.

So it's just when we're vilifying people (laughs) for these things, like it's a huge problem. A lot of it just comes back to not having the awareness of, like you said, that there are different ways of living, there's different ways people can show up, and all of it's valid.

[00:29:48] Christina Carlson: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

[00:29:50] Chris Angel Murphy: People don't have to be "worthy" in order to participate in society, to have housing, to have food, to have these like very basic needs, healthcare, any of it.

[00:30:01] Christina Carlson: Yeah. Our culture, going back to what I was saying earlier, our culture vilifies difference.

[00:30:06] Chris Angel Murphy: Mm-hmm.

[00:30:07] Christina Carlson: And that includes any kind of difference. So if you have health needs, if you have sexuality difference, gender difference, if you have neuro difference, like anything that is different; it's vilified. People are just terrified. So they don't wanna "end up" like us because they see it as a problem.

[00:30:32] Chris Angel Murphy: Yeah.

[00:30:33] Christina Carlson: And because the system as a whole rejects it. So it's in this space of like, "We don't wanna become like that. So there must be a way that they became like that. And it must be their fault." Because it's too scary for them to admit that like, that might be in them, and it might be a possibility - "That won't happen to me because I'm not like that."

it's like this connection that they like put into place based on the systems of repression that are already there, in order to try and stay in the range of acceptable normalcy so they can stay safe and avoid harm.

[00:31:08] Chris Angel Murphy: Something that we touched on for a little bit, and I know you mentioned that this is something you don't - I don't know, I, I don't wanna put words in your mouth - but how I took it is it's just not something you really need to claim anymore, you know, being ex-religious is just sort of like fading away for you. I'm wondering, you know, if I was leaving a religion, I imagined that I would feel a loss of community. I imagine I'd feel a loss of like how to know how to like do things anymore, since there's usually certain ways of doing things.

I mean, there's like reprogramming that has to happen. I mean there's just so much and a lot of fear, right, of like, "I've lived this way my whole life so far, how am I gonna make it on the other side of this?" If there is like another side, so to speak. If you feel comfortable, I'd be curious to know what you felt like you lost and what you felt you gained when you left the religion that you were practicing.

[00:32:09] Christina Carlson: Such a good question. Everyone's story who's been through this is different obviously, so I can only speak from my experience. I was very lucky to be taking apart this framework with some of my best friends, so I did not leave community entirely; my community left with me, which is extremely rare.

That being said, I did have to relearn everything. So, so much of that underneath is still being taken apart, but I found the things that I'm taking apart more now I find related to patriarchy and white supremacy. Whereas in the beginning it was just like: what do I? How do I structure my day? What do I do when I feel scared? What do I do when I feel things? What, what does it mean now to be in relationship without a third party that was supposedly always there? What is sexuality? What is a healthy relationship?

All of that is, is something you just kind of take one day at a time. And for me, I've had many different seasons and then I'll take a break and just binge watch Breaking Bad or something. But like, I'll go through seasons where it's like a couple months and every night I'll just go sit in the hammock outside and just like journal and just write and write and reveal things to myself about myself for like whatever's coming through for me. Because it's, it'll just be this intense time of like processing one of those things that I hadn't yet had the time to think about or to realize that I had choice or agency over.

And it can be really beautiful because for me, I felt like a lot of possibility in it since there was a part of me that really never fit. I found a lot of freedom in being like, "Oh, that doesn't hold me back anymore." (laughs) Like the first thing was like, "I can wear what I want!" (both laugh)

[00:34:13] Chris Angel Murphy: Mm-hmm.

[00:34:15] Christina Carlson: And it was just like, "Oh, I can, I can feel things; like I can, like who I want, I can wear what I want, I can, I can dance." Dancing was huge for me and it was like, "Oh, it's my body. Like, masturbation is okay, like sex is okay." Like all of these things that were just like, I was told I needed to be a certain way. Society still tells you you need to be a certain way, but like I was like deconstructing that in, in the midst of it, I'm just like, "All of this is fucked and I could be me." (laughs)

[00:34:47] Chris Angel Murphy: Mm-hmm.

[00:34:48] Christina Carlson: To me, it felt and still feels extremely liberatory that I can feel at peace in my own mind now. That is a gift that I could not fathom before.

[00:35:03] Chris Angel Murphy: When you were leaving with those people that you had mentioned, was there like a mantra or a line or a story you told yourself to root in this new path for yourself? Like, "I am worthy of love and support unconditionally," or, yeah, I'm just wondering if there was like something you kept telling yourself to remind you why you were like to almost like ground you and why you were making this major change in your life.

[00:35:32] Christina Carlson: Mm. One anchoring belief was, "I am good" cause it was something that I had never allowed in before. I am good. And that was something that I came back to a lot. Another was a quote by Lupita Nyong'o . I read an article by her in In Style magazine and she was describing a movie that she was in and she said, "I like what I'm doing I find it worthy of my heart." And I wrote that and had it above my desk because although she was talking about work, which I still apply that to my work, I felt like that was true of my life. I like what I'm doing. I find it worthy of my heart.

[00:36:13] Chris Angel Murphy: Something else that you have on your website - you talk about the concept of being a black sheep of the family. Something I noticed is that you said it's someone's superpower. So for folks who feel like the black sheep of the family, how is that a superpower?

[00:36:32] Christina Carlson: You can see something that other people can't. When you're fully in or on the bandwagon, you are fully in autopilot in many ways because things fit around you.

It just keeps going easily. It's just like a machine: it just keeps going. When you feel like you don't fit, you notice why. You notice things differently, and that is a superpower because what's being done in the world, how it's being run, is not working. We need people who see things differently. We need people who are not fitting to tell us what needs to change. That is absolutely necessary for us as, as a planet, (laughs) to survive.

And also like, you're fucking cool. You know? (both laugh) Like, I was like, is it just me or are queer people the coolest?

[00:37:30] Chris Angel Murphy: Honestly, like sometimes when I find out someone's straight or cis or something, I'm like, "Ah, how boring." (Christina laughs) Or if they're like, not neurodivergent. I'm just like, "What do you bring to the table?" (both laugh) And that's not inherently how I wanna feel about people, but sometimes that's like what my brain thinks. And I, I feel bad; so I'm working through that or something. (laughs) Yeah.

[00:37:53] Christina Carlson: I think for me, what I think I've realized is the reason that I assume the most queer people are cool, is because we've had to do a lot of self-reflecting and self-work to just be. And although there are a lot of straight people who have done that work as well, it's like a given, if you're queer, you've had to deal with yourself in a way that a lot of people haven't actually had to.

[00:38:18] Chris Angel Murphy: Something I've been mulling over a lot on a personal level is that just because you're queer, trans, nonbinary, et cetera, doesn't mean that you have to be out or disclose. That's not like the goal of queerness. And then I put myself through an existential crisis that I'm still dealing with of like, then what does that mean? Like what is the point of queerness? And I feel like we've talked about that, today.

[00:38:45] Christina Carlson: Tell me more. I wanna hear another thought. (Chris Angel laughs) You, you, you have more in there that you didn't finish saying. (laughs)

[00:38:50] Chris Angel Murphy: Because you're the guest. (both laugh) I was trying to see if that resonated with you at all.

[00:38:55] Christina Carlson: It does. I'm just, I, I feel like it spurred more questions in me because I - what does it mean? I feel like this goes back to the very beginning; it's like every definition is going to be unique to you.

[00:39:10] Chris Angel Murphy: Yeah.

[00:39:11] Christina Carlson: And to like one person in the sixties who's queer, it's gonna mean that they have a secret lover and they're happy with that because that's what works for them. And for someone else, it's gonna be marching in a parade or doing drag. Like it doesn't, it doesn't have to look a certain way, and I think that's really important to express because it's not always safe. And whether it's like externally safe or not, it might not be emotionally safe for you. And that might change based on the environment and that doesn't mean anything is wrong with you.

[00:39:48] Chris Angel Murphy: Mm-hmm.

[00:39:48] Christina Carlson: There's nothing wrong with you. Our environment is fucked and like we're like little camouflage sometimes, we have to fly under the radar to be safe and that's also okay. Like it's - I think for me being queer is like an internal experience that, when it gets to be expressed or resonated with feels like music. And when it's by myself, it feels like I'm a part of and connected to all things.

[00:40:27] Chris Angel Murphy: I dig that I just like wish I had a better way to articulate what I think it means. Like what is the point of being queer, and not in a way of like through a capitalist lens, but yeah, if the point isn't sharing who we are - cause we don't, again, we don't owe that to anyone, et cetera. Because I feel like there's a lot of emphasis that gets placed on like that piece of queerness.

[00:40:50] Christina Carlson: Mm.

[00:40:51] Chris Angel Murphy: But yeah, then what does it mean? Does it mean just like the point of it is just like that we're liberating ourselves and each other, or -

[00:40:59] Christina Carlson: What's the point of being straight.

[00:41:03] Chris Angel Murphy: I don't even wanna think about that. (both laugh) I didn't like, I feel bad. I'm sorry, straight people. There's no offense. I just like, I don't even wanna think that way cause I think I'm, I'm in a place now, and I'm recognizing in this moment, I'm just so fucking proud of being queer and whatever that means for me that like, I don't even wanna think about in that way a different experience cause I've already done that self-reflection and I don't need to revisit it right now.

[00:41:28] Christina Carlson: Yeah, I ask because I don't think there needs to be a point.

[00:41:32] Chris Angel Murphy: Well, my brain has decided this is something I need to solve for, so when I finally get over myself - (both laugh)

[00:41:37] Christina Carlson: Let me know.

[00:41:38] Chris Angel Murphy: And my brain releases it with love. Yeah. I guess I wanted to have something that feels like a counter-argument, but that in a way is like really concise and just like to the point of that like: there is no point, I guess, but in a jazzier way. (both laugh) I just want a jazzier way of saying that.

[00:41:57] Christina Carlson: (singing) There is no point. (laughs)

[00:42:00] Chris Angel Murphy: Exactly. (laughs) Musical theater comes out.

[00:42:02] Christina Carlson: Musical. Personally, like I think everything has meaning and nothing has meaning. Like everything is meaningful and meaningless simultaneously. And that's like the paradox of existence.

Like I think it's important for, you know, Queer activists right now because we don't have equal rights. That's, you know, that's why Black Lives Matter is a big fucking deal.

[00:42:26] Chris Angel Murphy: Mm-hmm.

[00:42:26] Christina Carlson: And that's why All Lives Matter is bullshit, because there needs to be a reflection and that isn't there yet. When there is, if that happens, maybe how we define and feel queer will look different.

[00:42:43] Chris Angel Murphy: Speaking of reprogramming, what's important, I think to name, is that you were brought up or part of a more fundamentalist religion that really focused on sexual repression. I'm curious how you think we fight that, period. And like what do you think would be a good milestone to see that shows we're making progress toward not, I don't know, yeah, just not being sexually repressed?

[00:43:22] Christina Carlson: Mm. Yeah, no. Celebrate yourself at every fucking chance you get. Like every time you notice anything you do or feel that you couldn't do or feel before, like fucking celebrate the shit out of it. Bake yourself a damn cake. Like it's not easy to move away from shame, it takes a lot of attention and intention to move away from a shame cycle that you were taught from infancy. Like, you know, your hand was slapped away from your genitals, from your earliest memories, right? Like it starts so early.

So anytime that you can do something that, or like that, you notice that you had sex and you weren't immediately panicked afterwards, maybe it took five minutes for a panic to set in. Celebrate the fucking five minutes. Like you had a moment where you were in it, right? Like that's a victory. If you weren't able to orgasm with someone, and now you can, there's a time that that happens; celebrate it. Like any chance you get to mark those things as significant and really revel in the significance of what that means for you, validate that for yourself.

I feel like you're gonna create a lot more peace within your own experience, and you'll see more growth in that because you're celebrating it as you go. I don't think there's one specific marker of like, "I'm doing it!" (laughs) You know? I feel like it looks different for everyone depending on what your experience of that repression is like.

Because if you were socialized as a man, you were allowed to have a sexuality, but it had a very specific look to it, so it was talked about differently in that community. If you were socialized as a girl, you've got like this, you weren't allowed to have a sexuality. It was supposed to be like for straight men, right? Like it was just this different framework that was pushed. So there's gonna be different shame that you're working through.

And for me a lot of that liberation came from actually just being sexual and allowing myself to feel sensual and sexual, like allowing that to just be an actual part of my experience has been something that I celebrate myself for and say "I'm doing it."

[00:45:47] Chris Angel Murphy: When thinking about purity culture, I guess I just wanted to check in and see, is there anything in particular you want to share out as a, a message about that?

[00:46:00] Christina Carlson: Hmm.

If you were raised in it, I'm really sorry. You deserve so much better than the rigid boxes that were defined for you and your body is designed for pleasure, because you deserve it. And yeah, it's a lot. Follow Erica "Sex-Ed" Smith on Instagram. She's an incredible sex educator, specifically for those who've been in purity culture. She has group programs, all kinds of shit. She's fabulous and a great resource for this.

[00:46:34] Chris Angel Murphy: Is there anything else you would want to say to folks who are queer and and or neurodivergent?

[00:46:43] Christina Carlson: You're really fucking cool. (both laugh)

I, I just want you to know that your experience of life is completely valid, and even though you are incredibly unique, look around and find the similarities between you and the other queer, neurodiverse people; because the more you can see yourself reflected in those around you, the easier it becomes to validate your own identity and the safer you'll feel in your own experience.

[00:47:14] Chris Angel Murphy: What's one allyship tip you'd like everyone listening to consider?

[00:47:19] Christina Carlson: Do you work on your own shame. I really think that change can only take place when we are able to move through our own experience of shame and be present with harm that we've caused, without spiraling and shame, because then we can do something different about it.

And not having capacity is a fucking real experience, especially if you were raised with a model of shame and you did something wrong, you were ashamed. It can feel really nervous system-overwhelming. You can stop hearing, you can stop thinking when you find out you've done something wrong or harmful.

And being able to calm and regulate your nervous system, if and when you make a mistake can be incredibly powerful and supportive for both you and the person that you've potentially harmed, and that can actually create a relationship that's stronger.

[00:48:13] Chris Angel Murphy: Christina, thank you for sharing so much of yourself with us in for your incredible insight. I found myself really aligning with a lot of what you had to say and resonated with a great deal too. Felt like we really got to be in community with each other, which was special to me.

On a more personal note, interviewing someone named Christina was kind of weird for me because that's my birth name and admittedly, I just don't see it often. I don't really have friends in my life who go by that name anymore.

And then when I also realized that this episode was dropping on May 9th, I thought that was fascinating because it's my foster care anniversary. Foster care launched me into an entirely different life path that I couldn't possibly have prepared for; including working through tough things like sexual assault and my sexuality. Bullying was ramping up, gender would show up a little bit later, but that was a really fucking hard year. It was one of the worst years of my life, and it was just so incredibly challenging that I'm in awe I ever made it through.

So May 9th, 2001 is a date I won't ever forget because I also met one of my best friends for life. Bridget; she was a teacher at the high school I went to. Not my teacher though, and she helped me deal with, yeah, one of the worst nights of my life. And she stayed with me until 3:00 AM even though she'd have to get up in just a few hours to get ready for another school day. And for that, I'm forever grateful.

I don't know why I'm sharing all of this or why I feel moved to, other than I guess that what I want to say is if you're in a position in your life where you've been thinking about fostering youth, please do it. They need you, especially the teens.

I mean, I had to sleep on a super thin mattress, if you could even call it that, in the middle of a hallway, with only one wall to keep me safe because the emergency center I was first taken to was just overflowing with youth. I was not the only young person sleeping in the hallways, and that was just our wing; who knows what it was like for the other wings.

But we also know that LGBTQ+ youth are disproportionately represented in the foster care system. And so many of the youth while I was there were just interviewing over and over again to try to get placed in a foster home or a group home with no luck. They just needed someone to take a chance on them. There's just such a stigma with teens that people just don't want them. They want the babies or the itty bitty ones.

Well, we've reached our final three self-reflection questions.

4. In what ways do I not trust myself? Why?

5. What in my life makes me say, "fuck yes!"?

6. Who is someone that can remind me of who I am when I need an anchor?

Visit AllyshipIsAVerb.com for any resources and a full transcript of the episode.

And remember, sometimes allyship means doing work on your own shame.

 
Charlie Ocean https://www.chrisangelmurphy.com
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