Shaan Dasani
Work through your own trauma; try to find connection points with folks. This week, Shaan Dasani (he/they) talks about creating Agents of Change and what it means to have an all-queer and trans cast! In this episode, you will learn 1. How spy movies like D.E.B.S. and the James Bond series inspired him while writing Agents of Change. 2. Why having someone as a possibility model was helpful for their gender journey 3. What in the world a “nibling” is.
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🎙️ Connect with Shaan to learn more about + support their work:
Agents of Change Instagram | For updates on when and where you can watch it
💻 Sources and resources from this episode:
Shaan’s Google Commercial | Goals in Google Calendar
Resources about Max of The L Word (contains spoilers)
‘The L Word’ failed a trans TV pioneer. 17 years later, he’s back to repair the damage | Los Angeles Times
The L Word star Daniel Sea says it was ‘healing’ to return to the show as a happy trans elder | PinkNews
‘The L Word’ Star Daniel Sea on the ‘Reparative Gesture’ of Max’s Return | IndieWire
Full Transcript
[00:00:00] Chris Angel Murphy: Well, hello there. I'm Chris Angel, and my pronouns are they/them. Welcome to Allyship is a Verb, a podcast for people practicing allyship for the LGBTQ+ community and beyond!
[00:00:22] Shaan Dasani: Hi, my name is Shaan Desani. I use he/him or they/them pronouns.
[00:00:30] Chris Angel Murphy: Born and raised in North Carolina, Shaan is a Los Angeles based actor, producer, writer, and speaker who has written, produced and directed over 30 short films, commercials, and music videos. What a run-on sentence I've created.
(laughs) Anyway, we met in a library. And I think this sounds like the beginning of a rom-com, and I'm so sorry to spoil y'all, but there is no rom-com to be had. I'm disappointed too, but - and I can't recall who they came with, probably a friend, but they were both in the audience and -
Essentially a librarian had asked me to do this event at her library, he'd found out about it somehow since it was a public event, and we got to talking a bit after. And again, this was ages ago, truly, but it's been really cool to keep tabs on him and see what he's been up to all of these years. We're gonna be talking about at least two of their projects, including one called "Agents of Change."
Also, like most actors, they have clips of various projects they've done, but there's a Google commercial in particular that I think perfectly shows off his charm. So I will be linking to that in the show notes. Please check it out.
And now it's time for three self-reflection questions to ponder during our conversation. Be sure to stick around after for three.
1. Which of my identities do I lead with? Does it change in any situations?
2. At what age did I first start thinking about my gender or gender at all?
3. Has there been a time I forced myself to do something because it felt expected of me? How did I feel about that? Would I do anything differently now?
And now, our conversation.
You are an uncle, brother, and son. You're of South Asian diaspora, Indian-American, you're environmentally conscious, you're health conscious, you're a transgender man (laughs) there's a lot going on (Shaan laughs) there. What do those intersections mean to you?
[00:02:46] Shaan Dasani: Whoa. Well, so many things. First of all, thank you for having me on. I was just gonna say, I think you do such a great job as a podcast host.
[00:02:54] Chris Angel Murphy: Aww.
[00:02:55] Shaan Dasani: When you reached out to me, I listened to some of your previous podcasts, and of course my good friend Petey Gibson was on earlier this year. And for anyone who's listening now, please listen to Petey's episode with Chris Angel, it's brilliant. You just, you have such a really great natural flow, so I'm excited to be here and, and chat with you.
[00:03:12] Chris Angel Murphy: Well, thank you.
[00:03:13] Shaan Dasani: Yeah.
[00:03:13] Chris Angel Murphy: I did not pay them to say that. So (laughs) anyone who's saying (Shaan laughs) - I didn't ask them to do that or anything, so, thank you.
[00:03:21] Shaan Dasani: That was free. That one was free. Yeah.
[00:03:22] Chris Angel Murphy: Thank you. I'm, I am definitely blushing. Thank you. That means a lot. And yes, I agree: Petey is super smart, said so many wonderful things. So, yeah.
[00:03:32] Shaan Dasani: Smart, eloquent, handsome. He's, he is a good dude. He's a good dude. Yeah.
[00:03:36] Chris Angel Murphy: Mm-hmm.
[00:03:38] Shaan Dasani: Yeah, so, so for, for my intersectional identities: you know, I think when you asked me, I led with family identifications first - uncle, brother, son. I've had a strong sense of family ever since I was a kid.
I grew up in an extended family when I was - up until I was eight years old, it was my parents, my two sisters, my two of my aunts, one of my uncles, my grandparents - we were all in the same house together. My family had immigrated from India and settled in a small town called Fayetteville, North Carolina.
And so we always had family around and, and that sense of, you know, family has always been something really strong in my life. And of course now, you know, my sisters and I we're adults and they have kids, and so I have these four niblings in my life that I get to be an uncle too.
[00:04:34] Chris Angel Murphy: "Nibling," N-I-B-L-I-N-G, is a gender-neutral term to replace "nephew" and "niece."
It was coined by linguist Samuel Elmo Martin in 1951, which shocked the hell out of me because I thought it was even newer than that.
[00:04:53] Shaan Dasani: I'm the middle child (laughs) in between my siblings and I - and so I feel like I, I - the middle child is always different. (laughs) I don't know why we're just different. And somehow like it's this feeling of like, "Am I really an adult? Am I grown?" That I'm always kind of question mark - not sure of.
But then when I get a chance to interact with my nibling, especially who are like preteens, early teens and preteens, now there's this sense of elderness, I guess. I don't know what the, you know, maybe like a little bit of a, "Oh, I know things. I can impart some things to them." You know, that that comes out. That I feel like very grown (laughs) in some way.
[00:05:36] Chris Angel Murphy: Yeah.
[00:05:37] Shaan Dasani: Health and wellness became a big thing for me as I started medically transitioning. I did a lot of research, pre-medical transition, and this was 2012-2013, as I was kind of exploring what was gonna be the right step for me. And one thing that, at the time, really did scare me was the lack of research that was out there for someone who is going to be ,in my case, on testosterone for the rest of his life.
[00:06:04] Chris Angel Murphy: Mm-hmm.
[00:06:05] Shaan Dasani: I didn't know what that would mean for me and my body. And so I just started, you know, over the years I just started like changing the way that I ate. I was always vegetarian, my family and I, you know, we were always practicing a lacto-vegetarian diet.
Living in California, you know, having access to food that wasn't always fast food. You know, we have, we have really great vegetarian restaurants and everyone's super health conscious here. And, you know, call it, call it the "vanity of the entertainment industry" or whatever, for better or for worse, I think there's certain things that I learned that I really began to appreciate.
But I just, I, I try to be just a very health conscious person. I drink, really yummy green juice in the morning. That's just vegetables in the blender.
[00:06:45] Chris Angel Murphy: You are sounding very LA right now.
[00:06:48] Shaan Dasani: I know.
[00:06:48] Chris Angel Murphy: I can't deny that. (laughs)
[00:06:49] Shaan Dasani: I know, I know. I (laughs) forget about it. I think when I, when I would go back to North Carolina to go visit family, like every trip my brother-in-law would just like get a little nervous about what new thing I would introduce.
Like the year I told them about kale, they had never heard about it. They were like, "What is this tough, green leafy thing? We don't like it. We don't want it." But now they do eat kale. I feel very proud of that.
[00:07:15] Chris Angel Murphy: I don't, because like -
[00:07:17] Shaan Dasani: Yeah. (laughs)
[00:07:17] Chris Angel Murphy: I'm like, "I gotta massage this? Like, I wanna massage. Why the fuck am I massaging my food?"
[00:07:21] Shaan Dasani: Mm-hmm.
[00:07:22] Chris Angel Murphy: You know?
[00:07:22] Shaan Dasani: Mm-hmm. I hear you. I hear you. (laughs)
[00:07:25] Chris Angel Murphy: I don't like it on its own, but I can like it in like a really well done salad, for sure.
[00:07:31] Shaan Dasani: You know, it's like that with tofu. I mean, tofu has no taste whatsoever, but -
[00:07:35] Chris Angel Murphy: Yeah.
[00:07:35] Shaan Dasani: And I've had people say, "Oh, I can't stand it." But I'm like, I grew up with spices. Like Indian cooking is all about spices and there's a lot of variety too. And so I, I use a lot of spices in my cooking, and not necessarily like hot, spicy, but just like different flavors and I bring those together and that's something that I really enjoy, like just experimenting in the kitchen. I cannot follow a recipe at all. Like if you put it right in front of me, it feels restrictive for some reason.
So I always like, maybe it's that middle child rebellion, I always like go off the cuff and kind of just do my own thing.
[00:08:07] Chris Angel Murphy: Well, I mean, people get lazy with tofu. I mean, I think about how many restaurants I've been to - their tofu dishes are always so boring.
[00:08:15] Shaan Dasani: Very boring, yeah.
[00:08:17] Chris Angel Murphy: Y'all really don't know how to work with this. I mean, because there are different ways you have to mess with it, like draining the water or like, you know, there's certain ways you can pan fry it. So like if you know how to work with it, tofu doesn't have to be boring, but also, like not everyone's gonna want to have like just a tofu dish. (both laugh)
Like there's, it's, yeah, they're really limiting their options. Anytime they have like a, just like a vegetarian part of the menu, it's just like really boring, usually. Unless it's a place that's like vegan or something, you know, then -
[00:08:49] Shaan Dasani: Right.
[00:08:49] Chris Angel Murphy: No more boring tofu.
[00:08:51] Shaan Dasani: No more boring tofu!
[00:08:52] Chris Angel Murphy: I want bumper stickers. (laughs)
[00:08:53] Shaan Dasani: I know. I'm gonna - we should make t-shirts. I love that. (laughs)
[00:08:56] Chris Angel Murphy: Let's do it. Yeah, sorry. I really derailed us there, but it just felt important to be passionate about that. So kale; I'm happy that you found your way to kale and that you are inspiring others to give it a shot too.
[00:09:07] Shaan Dasani: Yeah. Not my only mission, but hey, you know.
[00:09:10] Chris Angel Murphy: Mm-hmm.
[00:09:11] Shaan Dasani: Health, I think for trans folks, you know, good healthcare is not always accessible and I do feel lucky to be like in a city like Los Angeles where there's the LA LGBT Center, and I know there are a few other clinics that offer healthcare for trans folks that's kind, t hat's empathetic, that's understanding. You know, we don't always have that, and I think that a lot of times we have to figure things out for ourselves, especially when you're in a smaller town or in a place where there's not a, a place to go and you're not sure where to go. Not just for hormones, but for someone who's gonna look at your body holistically.
[00:09:44] Chris Angel Murphy: Mm-hmm.
[00:09:44] Shaan Dasani: And listen to what you're experiencing and feeling. When I started testosterone, I think within eight months - I like working out, okay - but I started to experience this, kind of prickly feeling every time I would work out, like, like pins, you know, on my skin. And through my own research - cause I, I couldn't figure out what was going on - through my own research, what I came to understand, was when you start testosterone therapy as a trans man, at least my experience was the skin gets thicker.
[00:10:16] Chris Angel Murphy: Mm-hmm.
[00:10:16] Shaan Dasani: The sweat glands get thicker - my body basically wasn't releasing the sweat. So I would be say on the treadmill or whatever, you know, and, and working out and my, it's like my sweat was not releasing off my skin and I'd have to just rub my skin really vigorously in order to let the pores open up and release the sweat.
And this was going on for months and, you know, I stopped working out for a little while and, and all that. But I also understood that testosterone is heating. There's a heat element, internally, that happens inside, and so it made sense that my body was getting very hot, and so I started learning about Ayurveda, which is like an East Indian Science.
Kind of looks at the body holistically with the foods that are right for you with the temperature, with the seasons, and so I started making sure I was eating more cooling foods like mint, cucumber, watermelon, things like that, that I would bring into my diet that helped me stay balanced again.
That was something that I think, like knowing how many changes my body was going through, that I could understand and things that I wasn't sure about, I had to kind of dig and research and that's what kind of led me into a health and wellness journey.
It's not that I'm certified in anything, it's just kind of been self experimentation. Trying to figure out like what feels right and how my body feels the most calm and balanced. I love being able to live in my body in a healthy way. That's super important to me. It's, it might not add years to our life - our life is gonna be whatever it is - but the quality of life is what I'm looking for.
[00:11:52] Chris Angel Murphy: How did you come into your trans identity?
[00:11:56] Shaan Dasani: Man, that's so - that's a - (Chris Angel laughs) I'm, I'm thinking (laughs) such a journey, you know. So I knew from the time I was three, at three years old, you know, two, three is like our, our sense of gender identity starts to form.
So in my mind, I was a boy. That was just who I was. I remember like, a teenager - eighth grade or so - I, I was at that point I think at puberty where it's like, oh, this, you know, like the reality that my body was not just gonna suddenly and magically be, you know, in line with a cis boy's body, you know, that reality started set in.
And I was allowed to when I was a kid, you know, when I was like five, 10, you know, to wear pants, to keep my hair short. Keeping my hair short felt like happiness (laughs) to me. So that awareness of being different was there from a very young age. It's just that it didn't hit me or scare me until puberty.
And then at that point, like from like seventh or eighth grade through high school, there was this feeling that I had to conform, that I had to just shove this down. I have to work through it. I have to come out on the other side, feeling like my older sister, who is cis, who, you know, had crushes on boys and liked wearing dresses and makeup and curling her hair and all this stuff, and I, I was like, "Okay, you've got a few years. You've gotta learn to like all of these things." that felt very unnatural to me.
I still, I remember going to bed every night praying, and I grew up spiritual, you know, spiritual, strong spiritual foundation. Not exactly Hindu, spiritually or religiously, but like you could say, you know, it's a, it's an Eastern philosophy out of Punjab, which is the northern part of India.
So I grew up with a strong sense of faith, and I remember praying every night in the morning when I wake up, I want my body to be different. I want my body to be like a boy's body. Every morning, waking up and just wanting to cry. It was heartbreaking. It's not just about the body, it's about like looking at your, your life and your future and trying to understand what options you have and what possibilities you have.
You know, at 15, 16, 17, you know, watching my sister and my friends and you know, people thinking about college and what they wanted to be when they grew up. I actually did wanna be an actor at, you know, at that age. I just, I, I remember thinking, "How are you going to be an actor?"
And, you know, my - for some reason soap operas were always on my family's house, so I'd be watching "Young and the Restless" and all of a sudden its like, "You're gonna have to play that role. If you're an actor, you're gonna be the girl's role." And that felt like very - it's just not something that I wanted, it's not something I connected to, you know. And so the sense of possibility of what my life would be, I saw nothingness. I had no idea what it would be.
And my, my older sister, you know, wanted to get in the medical profession and very smart and very academic and I, I wasn't super academic A's and B's, you know, which is great. She was a straight A student. She was very much like, knew what she wanted and I was like, I don't know what this is gonna look. But I liked creativity.
Coming from a big family, as I did, it was always someone's birthday, it was always an anniversary or something, or someone was getting married. And so I was the one who was tasked with, you know, organizing the entertainment program. You know, my cousins and I, we would do dances and my role was to write the skit, the little play.
So if it was someone getting married, it would be the story of when so-and-so met so-and-so, you know, and I would organize that and write it and kind of make it funny. And, and I would always play the groom. Because at a wedding, you know, I'd be usually dressed up in like an Indian dress or, you know, outfit or a sari, or, and if I wrote a skit in which I got to play the groom or the boy, then I could change outta that outfit and I could wear the, the suit or the jeans or the whatever, you know. And no one would ever question it because it's just quote unquote " 'She's' just playing."
[00:16:22] Chris Angel Murphy: Mm-hmm.
[00:16:22] Shaan Dasani: But for me it was therapy. It was escapism. It was a way to actually feel connected to myself to actually enjoy the event. So that's, you know, just a glimpse into what that looked like, you know, in teenage years.
[00:16:36] Chris Angel Murphy: Yeah. I mean, you were like rewriting your life in real time.
[00:16:40] Shaan Dasani: Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I was, I was definitely trying, trying to figure out how to, how to make it work. I wanted to live. I didn't know what my possibilities or options were, but I wanted to live. I liked being alive. I liked having fun and dancing and celebrating, and not thinking so much about my gender, my gender identity. I wanted to just feel free and light.
Freshman year of college - I grew up in North Carolina, I went to NC State for my first year of college. My older sister was there. It was about an hour's drive from where my family's house was. And I thought, "Okay, look, if everyone expects you to change to be more feminine, it's really gonna be hard for you to do that when everyone's around." I didn't want people commenting, I didn't want my family commenting about, you know, you know anything, like any change that I was going through.
So I was like, "I'm gonna convince my family that I need to go away for school if they want me to be more how they want me to be." So I transferred out. I moved to Virginia so I didn't get super far. (both laugh) I went to this really small school called Old Dominion University, which is medium size.
I don't know what it was about Old Dominion. I just, when I went for a campus tour, I liked it and I knew like that instinct was there; "Okay, you're gonna be here for the next few years." Something inside was telling me that. So I moved away, I went to Old Dominion. The international student population was pretty big at the school, so my friend circle was people from all over the world; people from Denmark and Malaysia and Germany.
And so like, it was a really beautiful, multicultural experience. It was other-possibility. It was like looking at - getting a chance to look at life from this experience of peers and friends who had come from overseas to get an education here. And they were dreamers, you know, they were just like, they saw life in a, in a different way.
And even though we didn't talk about gender and sexuality, we talked about big things, you know what I mean? Like things that are bigger than that. And so there was a lightness there, you know, and, and I realized, even going through that experience - I was actually, over those few years that I was away, I was getting closer to feeling free in who I was as opposed to feeling like I had to conform.
Because you're gonna have to go back, right, after college. I'm like, "I have to go back home." But instead of feeling like, "I'm gonna go back home and I'm gonna be the the girl they want me to be" I was actually becoming more just connected to something that felt like more joyful.
So, yeah, I, I think I was starting to, to date by senior year of college I was starting to allow myself to date and, you know, I had my first girlfriend at the time and didn't say anything to anybody. And, and anyway, sure enough, like after college I ended up moving back home, I went back to North Carolina.
I was there for about a year and a half, and I quickly realized "You need to be somewhere else if you're going to continue to expand as a human being." I loved my family, but I couldn't see possibility for myself there; either creatively or whoever I was - which I still didn't have the word for trans yet.
[00:19:56] Chris Angel Murphy: Mm-hmm.
[00:19:57] Shaan Dasani: I minored in film studies when I was at Old Dominion. I, I majored in marketing and I minored in film studies and I was starting to get into filmmaking and I thought, "This is really cool." Because stories are a way for people to see another person's experience, even if it's not their own, and connect to it. I really like.
As part of the film studies minor, I got a chance to make a film. I think we did a lot of like more theoretical work, but then we also had to make a film as a part of our, the degree requirements. A lot of people who came to that first screening - the movie was about growing up, first generation Indian-American here. And I interviewed myself and two of my friends, how we connected to our culture, how would we connect with our families and, and how we related to being Americans.
When that first screening happened, I think there, there weren't too many Indian-Americans there, you know, it was very n- I guess non, non-Asian crowd, you know. And I was like, "Oh, are people gonna get this? Are people gonna connect to it?" And there were a lot of people that came up afterwards that felt like they connected to it because it was about growing up, it was about figuring out who you are, different from maybe your parents, and how you kind of come into your own. And so that's a universal message.
And I understood that, you know, with storytelling, with film, you can, you can focus on the universal that everyone can connect to. That's what I did. I moved out to California. I went to film school out here, and I got into filmmaking. I also knew getting out of North Carolina was gonna give me possibility, from a personal perspective, even though I didn't know quite yet what that would look like.
So I moved out here for film school; I went to Chapman. And I learned kind of filmmaking from everything behind the camera and, and kind of forgot that I wanted to act, to be honest with you - I just, I forgot about it. I was like, well, filmmaking felt really fun and, and creatively energizing. And so that's what I did through school.
And then for a number of years I was focusing on, on everything behind the scenes as an indie filmmaker and learning. And then I met someone through a South Asian arts organization who was trans, who was a trans guy. And he had not medically transitioned yet. It blew my mind and I didn't know what the word "transgender" was.
I had watched "The L Word", (Chris Angel laughs) I had seen the Max story. (laughs) I didn't connect with the the Max story, the story that they wrote on screen, even though there's a part of me that connected with Max.
[00:22:23] Chris Angel Murphy: Yeah, same. I, I - watching it, I was just like, this is painful.
[00:22:27] Shaan Dasani: Yeah.
[00:22:27] Chris Angel Murphy: Like poor Max.
[00:22:29] Shaan Dasani: Poor Max. And when you see something like that and you're like, that is painful and kind of humiliating. For the way that they, you know, that story was, was written, it's, it felt like, "Whoa, that's not what I want."
[00:22:41] Chris Angel Murphy: Max was a character on the original "L Word" show, which was a group of mostly lesbian friends in LA talking, laughing, loving, breathing, fighting. Well, (laughs) fans know how the rest of that goes. We watched Max transition, which got really messy and not in a real human, kind of messy, like the medical pieces were exaggerated, and he became a transphobic trope, a stereotype based in mostly lies.
I applaud the fact that "L Word" tried to give the trans community representation, and I've long wondered if it would've been better to not try at all. He came back on Generation Q and the actor who played Max was quoted in December of 2022 as saying it was healing to return to the show as a happy trans elder.
I'll have more linked under the resources if you wanna read up on it.
Yeah. Honestly, I think the kindest thing would've been to have not written that character at all. Yeah.
[00:23:35] Shaan Dasani: I think you're right. Or - (laughs)
[00:23:38] Chris Angel Murphy: But it also did help some of us, like, learn more about who we are. It's just also there was a cost there with that. cause again, poor Max, is all I'll say.
[00:23:49] Shaan Dasani: Well that's the thing. And then today, what I'm really grateful for, is today you can't, you, you can't get a - I think people do things like that nowadays, we, we do see things like that sometimes in entertainment, but I think we're moving further away from it. Like, the representation and the authenticity of who's writing the stories has become a huge part of the conversation that folks are getting more and more aware of.
[00:24:11] Chris Angel Murphy: Yes.
[00:24:12] Shaan Dasani: So I'm really grateful for that. Anyway, I had met my first like South Asian friend who was also a trans man, and I think I was like, "Dude, I gotta talk to you. I have to talk to you." And I remember we got to be, we got to be friends and we, you know, sat down and we talked. And it blew my mind because I did not know that you could say out loud to people that I feel like a different gender or gender identity, and that people could actually respect you and and respect what you're saying and respect your pronouns, and I just didn't know that was a thing.
And so I think as, as I thought about him in his journey, and then I actually, I think sometime after that, I looked up the definition of what transgender means on Wikipedia, (both laugh) and I was like, "Oh, so the reason you can't say you're a lesbian-" which I never identified as, I just, I never used the word. I just always, you know, if I was coming out to someone, I always said, "I like girls. I have feelings for girls." But I just, the word "lesbian", just for whatever reason, didn't feel right.
[00:25:24] Chris Angel Murphy: Mm-hmm.
[00:25:24] Shaan Dasani: Well, not for whatever reason, it's because I was a trans man who had feelings for women. And so when that light bulb went off, it terrified me because it meant if I decided to medically transition, I could not hide that the way I could hide who I was dating or the way I could hide under this kind of tomboyish thing that I was doing.
And not only could I not hide, but that would mean that my parents would have to talk about having a son and my sisters would have to talk about having a brother and you know, and what that meant and what that looked like, you know, really did scare me.
I sat with it for about a year, to year and a half, of like kind of doing my own research and really thinking it through and kind of understanding. You know, and then going to therapy and, and just understanding if this was the thing for me. And I thought, "If you weren't afraid of all of those things, would you wanna do it?" And there was no doubt in my mind a hundred percent. The idea of like, "Could you do this and the people in your life who you love will still love you; they will still be there. People around you will love and accept you for who you are." It felt so liberating and it felt so, so beautiful and exciting, and I thought, "Yeah, that's what I wanna do."
And I thought, I'm living this life for me. I'm not living it for anybody else. Everyone's life is finite. How do you wanna live it? And so, so I moved forward with medical transition, which was the right step for me. I know that's not the right step for everybody.
[00:27:04] Chris Angel Murphy: Mm-hmm.
[00:27:04] Shaan Dasani: Or accessible to everybody. Luckily, it's not that it was an easy journey, it was still a journey and a process to help my family understand what I was going through, but they are very loving and supportive and I think it's a, it's a best case scenario. I will say that. I know that's not everyone's experience, but I was very lucky and feel very lucky to have that kind of support.
That's a nutshell of how I came into my trans identity.
[00:27:32] Chris Angel Murphy: There's so much to say there. I mean, first off, you're such a wonderful storyteller, so thank you for that. One of the things that I latched on to was that you just told people that you like girls. I really love that, that that was part of your journey. If only because we're at a place right now where there's so many labels, it's overwhelming.
I've recently been connecting with people who are just newer to the LGBTQ+ community broadly.
[00:27:59] Shaan Dasani: Mm-hmm.
[00:27:59] Chris Angel Murphy: And I think they feel stuck. Well, I know they feel stuck cause we talk about it. There's just all this emphasis on finding the right label and knowing the language and at - I think it's way different entering the community now versus like, I think when like you and I did, you know, even though our stories are a little bit different, there's also a lot of similarities there.
I love that you could just say that and people just got it. You just didn't need to have a label for it. I know that didn't fully explain your experience because then you know, you'd come to discover more about yourself, but I love that that was something you were able to do. Cause it can be that simple for folks.
[00:28:38] Shaan Dasani: Yeah, it did feel like simpler times. You know, I mean, labels, it's so interesting that you say that cause I feel. At every point, you know, language keeps changing and shifting, and sometimes finding "the label" is the thing.
[00:28:50] Chris Angel Murphy: Yes.
[00:28:51] Shaan Dasani: And it was important for me to know that there was a word for how I was feeling. And also, I don't know, I think sometimes the way that we - the way that people perceive, people from outside the community perceive labels and our different identities, can feel like they're separating us. I think there's still a way that as a society, we're, we're still young, you know, we're still learning how to connect with each other beyond labels.
I think there's an importance to labels, but I think there's something now that we, about going beyond trans, isn't that what trans means? Going beyond, (laughs) right. Going beyond the label in order to connect with each other as people. That's why storytelling feels so important to me, because it is about overarching human themes that everybody is going through, whether you're cis or trans or you know, what, what, whatever a person's identity is - is there are things that we go through as people that connect us that I think we've kind of moved farther and farther away from.
That I'm excited to, I'm excited for moving through this phase and hopefully getting on the other side, which I, we desperately need to do.
[00:30:02] Chris Angel Murphy: Mm-hmm.
[00:30:03] Shaan Dasani: At this point.
[00:30:04] Chris Angel Murphy: Yeah, so that's why, like in hearing your story, some of what I took away was just how empowering it was for you to hear about the term "trans," but it also seemed like to an extent, there was some comfort around just saying, "I like girls." So I mean.
[00:30:19] Shaan Dasani: Mm-hmm.
[00:30:19] Chris Angel Murphy: Yeah. Sometimes language is really important for us to be able to find community cause like, yeah, meeting that person, it sounds like that was really powerful for you. And -
[00:30:28] Shaan Dasani: Huge.
[00:30:29] Chris Angel Murphy: Like for me, I was, like, the first person in my friend group, and so people were watching me and would later come out. My version of that was reading "Stone Butch Blues."
[00:30:41] Shaan Dasani: Mm-hmm.
[00:30:41] Chris Angel Murphy: And coming across Leslie Feinberg's work. And so I feel like everyone, (laughsz) I feel like one of the best ways to enter the community is to have that person that you're just like, "Ah, that's my experience" or "Oh, things are starting to click for me." And yeah, getting to a place of wanting to like sit there and pick their brain and ask them all the questions, cause it's like, "I feel like everything's finally clicking for me and I'm connecting all these different dots." So I'm just glad you're able to have that.
[00:31:07] Shaan Dasani: Well, yeah, and I think about too, from your positioning, how to access resources to be able to help us along the way of - through our journey. For a lot of people, there, that option of having like an actual physical friend group or community of people that get it isn't always there.
So even, even for me, like I had this person, you know, and we were friends, we were - we weren't, we weren't around each other all the time or anything like that, but like even watching YouTube videos and blogs and-
[00:31:33] Chris Angel Murphy: Mm-hmm.
[00:31:34] Shaan Dasani: Tumblr, (laughs) Tumblr was a thing. You know-
[00:31:36] Chris Angel Murphy: It still is.
[00:31:37] Shaan Dasani: Even going to the library. Is it? I don't know.
[00:31:39] Chris Angel Murphy: Yeah.
[00:31:40] Shaan Dasani: I'm the worst. (Chris Angel laughs) I'm the worst with like what - yeah.
[00:31:44] Chris Angel Murphy: Says the marketing person. I'm just teasing. (laughs)
[00:31:47] Shaan Dasani: I know, you're right. It's, that's the one thing that I tell, like even my, my reps, my managers, is like, "I have a marketing background." And yet figuring out like marketing for yourself as an actor is such a, it's such a challenge, I tell you. For me.
[00:32:01] Chris Angel Murphy: Yeah.
[00:32:01] Shaan Dasani: But yeah.
[00:32:03] Chris Angel Murphy: Thinking about our trans elders and also understanding we're trans elders too, which is weird cause age and all that - it's come up before on the podcast, but -
[00:32:15] Shaan Dasani: Mm-hmm.
[00:32:15] Chris Angel Murphy: You actually direct a play called "Tales of the Trancestors" and I really love that as a term. So y'all are doing another run this year and I'm just wondering if you can tell us more about it and why it's actually very timely.
[00:32:29] Shaan Dasani: Yeah, maybe a little over a year ago I got a chance to collaborate with this wonderful theater company called Celebration Theater based here in Southern California. They asked if I wanted to do some sort of show, and so we came across this kind of idea of bringing stories to life from trans people who had lived in the past.
I like the idea of, you know, having it feel like a storybook vibe to it and, and, and so the play was called "Tales of the Trancestors," and we brought six stories to life from people who had existed throughout history, across time, across culture. We went as far back as the, like late, mid to late 1800's to actually present day.
And I just thought we - even though this person is, hasn't passed, they are an elder in the community and her story isn't going to be necessarily captured in a history book. And it's still a beautiful story and a valid story, and an important story for, for people to know about. We brought that person's story and her, her name is Claudia Hermosa.
So "Tales of the Trancestors," you know, became this fringe show. Fringe is kind of, you know, it's not a trans-centric audience per se; they're theatergoers and they're actors and they're, you know. We weren't doing the show for a queer audience, necessarily, and I loved that aspect that people who were gonna come had a sense of what they were stepping into, but were getting this kind of exposure for the first time.
Transness is, right now, like we talk about gender identity in a way where I think for some people, feels like a newthing, but this- trans people have been here since the beginning of time, throughout every culture.
I felt like that was not only kind of a gift to, to give the audience, to have some perspective, but also for our own community, because how often do we have access to these stories or get a chance to see them, you know, especially in this setting, like let alone read about them in a book? Find a link online or whatever, but like getting a chance to kind of like sit in a theater and have these stories like come to life right in front of us was such a beautiful experience.
So I think the, we had Lou Sullivan - when was Lou Sullivan born? I think in the 40s and 50s through the early 90s, you know - who was an AIDS rights activist and, and a trans man. And Don Langley Simmons, who was a writer, wrote all these like biographies and was a, a trans woman who lived in South Carolina and ,actually, was just fine until she was also apparently the first interracial marriage in South Carolina at that time, and so faced a lot of backlash from people, you know, after she married a black man.
And, you know, so we get into these stories of, you know, these people who we would just never know about. And so what happened was we did that last summer and we're getting a chance to - now Celebration Theater has a partnership with a wonderful theater company called Greenway Alliance and we're gonna be doing it again this summer. Not through Fringe Festival, but just like its own thing, in the summertime.
[00:35:36] Chris Angel Murphy: Well, it's so rad and it's just like really comforting to know there's been other folks because so many, I imagine, we don't know of because our history gets erased or they've had to hide who they are. Sometimes we don't find out about who they were until after they're long gone, and I have mixed feelings about that, and I'll save that for another day, but -
[00:35:59] Shaan Dasani: Mm-hmm.
[00:35:59] Chris Angel Murphy: I'm curious, especially thinking about the term "Trancestors", but I've been thinking about if they'd actually be proud of us. Because I think, before, it was really easy to believe that where we're at medically, community-wise, language, et cetera, but, yeah, do you think where we are now is beyond our trancestor's wildest dreams? Or yeah, how do you feel about that? Because I'm not sure.
[00:36:28] Shaan Dasani: There was a time, in certain cultures, where trans people were really ingrained as a part of society, were revered as a part of society, seen as wisdom keepers.
[00:36:40] Chris Angel Murphy: Mm-hmm.
[00:36:41] Shaan Dasani: And I think the disappointment would be with society.
[00:36:45] Chris Angel Murphy: Yeah.
[00:36:46] Shaan Dasani: We've lost the ability to see magic in diversity, and I think there's such a fear out there, right now, that continues to dampen that magic. There's a beauty to having different experiences across humanity that I think we could actually be learning a lot from; because there's so much divisiveness. I think for folks that feel like they're different, I think the majority is diversity.
[00:37:18] Chris Angel Murphy: Mm-hmm.
[00:37:19] Shaan Dasani: But I think there's a, there's a fear right now that's not helping us grow as humanity should be. I hope with the storytelling of modern times that we can bring it back because it's the stories that I think are really gonna reach across, say "the aisles," so to speak, and kind of help people understand what this experience is.
[00:37:39] Chris Angel Murphy: Well, you've shared that your career has taken some really interesting twist and turns, we've heard some of that, and as a creative, how do you keep from putting yourself in a box or just limiting what you're able to do?
[00:37:53] Shaan Dasani: That's a relatively new journey for me, like to, to give myself permission to, to have all these - when we're talking about labels (both laugh) - but to like have all these like labels. Because like I started out in film production, so I learned kind of everything behind the camera; like whether it was art direction or, or being a sound, you know, boom operator or you know, a gaffer grip.
Like I learned all of that stuff behind the scenes first and then, as I began to present male, I started acting. I've been in the acting lean for a little under 10 years now. It, it coincides with my, my medical transition journey.
I just went back to - I've been writing this story for about five or six years now about a secret agent who fights environmental crime, and last year we shot it. So it is just, by the time you air this, it will have had its first world premiere.
So what happened was, I, I wrote it, co-produced it and acted in it. And I think over this last year, getting a chance to go through that navigating, you know, managing our post-production workflow and you know, also going on auditions as an actor. I think it's just finally clicked for me: you don't have to necessarily put yourself in one of these boxes, you just have to kind of know that you have skills in all of these areas and kind of learn how to organize your life in a way that's going allow you that freedom, as a creative.
So yeah, that's been just like really in this last year, what's felt like a really empowering journey and it's made me excited about producing projects again. It's a, it's made me excited about like kind of tapping into, you know, my directing roots again, which I'm - for on-screen stuff I haven't directed now in, in a few years.
So, yeah, it's been a really beautiful creative process and I'm, I'm still learning and growing and I still wanna continue to get better. I think training is important in looking at other people who are - like learning from other people that are doing the work is also really important to me.
My good friend, Jett Garrison, directed "Agents of Change" and you know, getting a chance to work with him and kind of see his process and also know everyone is learning, you know, everyone is growing as creatives and as artists. And we have to, especially as queer and trans creatives, knowing that we don't always get the same opportunities as cis folks, especially cis men, giving ourselves room to grow as artists. And I really do appreciate that I got a chance to learn that in this last year.
[00:40:21] Chris Angel Murphy: I just, I think that's really cool and I think it just speaks to like the power of not putting yourself in a box because I got to see "Agents of Change."
[00:40:29] Shaan Dasani: You got a sneak peek, yeah.
[00:40:31] Chris Angel Murphy: Yeah, I did. And I have to say I love it and I - part of why - when I was part of the lesbian community, I really, really enjoyed a film called "D.E.B.S."
[00:40:43] Shaan Dasani: Oh yeah.
[00:40:43] Chris Angel Murphy: And it had started as a short.
[00:40:45] Shaan Dasani: Yes.
[00:40:45] Chris Angel Murphy: And then it turned into a feature film and I actually recently made a friend watch it with me, because I was just like, "Listen, I just love this movie. I don't know why it's very campy, but-" I was wondering if that was any inspiration for "Agents of Change?"
Because you've got these secret agents, they're trying to fight the bad guys and everything, and they're similar, yeah, just like campiness and even your graphics. But like everything was amazing. Like I loved, you know, the opening, I love like the first song that comes in, you've cast like really great folks. I, I'm just, so, I guess basically I'm saying I'm obsessed with it.
[00:41:25] Shaan Dasani: (laughs) I think I got, whew, really lucky because when you talk about a cast in the early versions of the script, I didn't know Rain Valdez, I'd never worked with her. I didn't know Gretchen Wylder, never worked with her. I didn't know Dalila Ali Rajah. I didn't know Michael D. Cohen, you know, never, never worked with them.
And so I think I - part of the reason why it was taking me so long, I feel ,to write it, is because I didn't know these people and so I couldn't shape the characters and it was hard to like find the story. But the other reason was that it's about the environment and you know, climate justice and that felt like a huge responsibility to write about.
[00:42:02] Chris Angel Murphy: Yeah.
[00:42:03] Shaan Dasani: I could watch the secret agent films. I could watch, you know - Mitch del Monico, who I started this journey with of like the writing and the creating - you know, we would get together and watch the old Bond films and we would just kind of tap into kinda like, "Okay, what'd they do story-wise, and what are things that we like and good-"
Like, you know, especially from a masculinity perspective, of his interactions with women were, like the, like the Bond girls and the set - things that we were like, "You know, we're moving, we're moving into a different era of what masculinity looks like."
But for him and I, that's what the example was consistently in a spy genre film.
[00:42:40] Chris Angel Murphy: Yep.
[00:42:40] Shaan Dasani: Okay, he was the hero. He always knew. He was always cool. He always got the girl. He could always say kind of the, almost the sleaziest things or whatever, and like get the girl.
[00:42:51] Chris Angel Murphy: Well, when we saw that in "D.E.B.S." too. I'm not trying to give away any of the movie if folks are gonna end up watching it - which please do, I don't know why it brings me so much joy, like I literally squeal during it. (laughs)
[00:43:01] Shaan Dasani: Yeah, yeah.
[00:43:02] Chris Angel Murphy: But like we see toxic masculinity in "D.E.B.S." too. Cause this one guy gets very possessive over -
[00:43:08] Shaan Dasani: Yeah.
[00:43:09] Chris Angel Murphy: One of the, one of the women in the movie, so - it was just, it was really gross.
[00:43:14] Shaan Dasani: "D.E.B.S." was an inspiration also for me in the sense of, I was looking for other - I think after the Bond stuff - I was looking for other, well, are there any queer stories? Are there any, you know, and I found the short, I never got a chance to see the feature. I didn't, you know, maybe it's somewhere that I can easily watch now, but when I was doing the research, I was like-
[00:43:32] Chris Angel Murphy: Yes.
[00:43:33] Shaan Dasani: When you don't have very many examples of how to do it differently, I think there, there can be a tendency to default into, "Oh, this is what, this is how it is. This is how the hero's gonna be cause this is what works." And we wanted do something that wasn't that.
[00:43:47] Chris Angel Murphy: Yeah.
[00:43:48] Shaan Dasani: With our main secret agent guy, his name is Guy who I get to play. And so there was that bit of kind of looking at the spy films, like the Bond films, the Mission Impossibles, and even "D.E.B.S." You know, looking at that and seeing, "Okay, what can we do that's gonna be a little bit different." now I'll say that from like a storytelling perspective, I looked at as many spy genre films and shows as I could.
From a professional perspective, you know, the work that Rain Valdez does, the work that Gretchen Wylder does, you know those actually - because they're indie, they are creatives, queer creatives, who wrote their own pieces, vehicles for themselves as actors, because they weren't seeing the projects that they wanted to see for themselves. And so they just took it in their own hands and they're like, "We're gonna create it."
And so I have a filmmaking background. I wanna feel inspired by that and I think I've, I've felt very lucky that I've gotten a chance to meet these, you know, wonderful storytellers and creatives that are constantly leveling up and inspiring, not just me, but I, you know, I know there's a lot of like queer creatives that also look at them as like role models, in a sense.
Getting a chance to - as I was writing, I was like, "Why am I not writing Rain Valdez into this story to play?" My co-secret agent, the character was there, there was already a character of the co-secret agent, but as soon as I locked her in, in my mind to play that character, she came alive.
So that's, I think - it's super exciting to me to get a chance to do something that I feel really, really proud of.
[00:45:25] Chris Angel Murphy: I have to say, I'm so fucking proud of you. I'm just gonna throw the F-bomb in there because like, seriously, it is so well done. Like, the lighting, the people you cast, you yourself in it; just seeing different like queer and trans representation like that, it's just so well done. I'm so excited for people to see it.
And when it ended I was like, "No." (laughs) Like I want-
[00:45:45] Shaan Dasani: Yeah.
[00:45:46] Chris Angel Murphy: I want to cont- like, I wanna like see more of this story. I wanna see more of like, Guy's background. I, you know, like I got really invested. I'm so excited for you and I'm really excited for people to see it.
And you just did a screening, like a small screening, I think, for folks.
[00:46:03] Shaan Dasani: Mm-hmm.
[00:46:04] Chris Angel Murphy: And yeah. Do you want to talk about that a little bit?
[00:46:07] Shaan Dasani: I did a private, I'm gonna call it a "producer screening," and, I - it was in my mind, just to invite 15 to 30 folks and I wanna get a first look. But I think, like, over the last year I've gotten to meet more folks that are involved in the climate movement and I wanted to invite those storytellers in to come see like, "Do we - how do you feel about this narrative?"
Like, I always wanted to make impact with the film, not just tell a cool spy genre thing, but like, get - allow people to feel empowered in their ability to make a difference. Especially when it comes to something that feels so huge as the climate movement.
[00:46:46] Chris Angel Murphy: Well that's why I'm so grateful you shared about your college experiences because now I know like this is something that's been like brewing in you for a while because you said that you weren't shy with those friends about talking about big things that were happening in the world.
[00:46:59] Shaan Dasani: Yeah, a hundred percent. You know, thanks for making the link cause I think it was always there, thinking about things that are, are bigger. "Agents of Change" is not about identity in terms of queer and trans identity, even though our, our cast is almost a fully queer and trans cast.
[00:47:15] Chris Angel Murphy: Mm-hmm.
[00:47:15] Shaan Dasani: But we don't really talk about identity because there is something bigger going on that they are tapped into, you know. Probably in a bigger version in, in the TV show or in the film or where - wherever this, however, this, you know, turns out in the long run - of course identity is gonna come into it. Of course.
It's just in the span of a 15 minute short, there was no kind of natural fit that I could find and that was okay because I feel like I'm someone also more than this identity. We go beyond that. And I think sometimes when like this, the culture that we're in right now, when people latch into, when like cis folks, especially like more kind of folks that aren't as exposed, latch onto transgender or or gender nonconforming, they get really scared.
Part of the thing for me is there's also, yes, there's also more than that, that you would probably connect to if you put your guard down just a bit. And so I wanted to explore this film from that lens of connecting on something that's also beyond gender identity.
The climate movement is something that I think it's gonna impact communities of color first. It's gonna impact, like, folks that are disenfranchised first.
[00:48:27] Chris Angel Murphy: It already is.
[00:48:28] Shaan Dasani: Yeah, exactly. And so I wanted to center like queer and trans people of color at the forefront of that movement that are making a difference. So some people may look at and they say, "Oh, it's not a queer film." But I'm like, "No, it is a queer film. It, it's gonna impact our communities first." So I do see it as a queer film, and also all of us are out queer and trans actors. If anyone chooses to Google us, then they'll know.
[00:48:51] Chris Angel Murphy: Just having that casual representation's nice. And not making it about your transness, not making it about your queerness. And so if anything, yeah, I love it for that alone. Like I said, I'm just so proud of you. It's so great and clearly, you've worked with like super, ridiculously talented people on it; it really shows.
[00:49:09] Shaan Dasani: Thank you. I think one of the things that I do think about too is, you know, there's, there's a conversation of representation in the entertainment industry and what I want is for queer and trans folks and Black folks and South Asian folks and you know, folks of all identities to get a chance to come into writer's rooms and positions, to direct projects that aren't just about those identities.
[00:49:32] Chris Angel Murphy: Mm-hmm.
[00:49:32] Shaan Dasani: In the same way that cis, white men have always had just kind of, it hasn't even been a question, "Oh, this is a story about a cis, white man. Why don't I get a cis, white man to direct it?"
[00:49:42] Chris Angel Murphy: Yeah.
[00:49:43] Shaan Dasani: It hasn't been a thing. It's just, "Oh, this is a, this is a film about blah, blah, blah. I'm gonna get this person to direct it. Not because it's about identity, but because they're an awesome director."
[00:49:53] Chris Angel Murphy: Yeah.
[00:49:53] Shaan Dasani: You know, or "They're, they're an awesome writer." And I think that's what I wanna see us moving into.
[00:49:58] Chris Angel Murphy: Yeah. And no one's like tokenized because-
[00:50:01] Shaan Dasani: Exactly.
[00:50:02] Chris Angel Murphy: You wrote it. (laughs)
[00:50:03] Shaan Dasani: Yeah.
[00:50:04] Chris Angel Murphy: You know, like, yeah. So it really just felt natural and amazing. I think that's why I've, like, been gravitating toward it so much.
[00:50:11] Shaan Dasani: Thank you.
[00:50:12] Chris Angel Murphy: You're so welcome. You're so, so welcome. It's just funny to think about: we met in that library a million years ago, it feels like, and then like, just looking at where we're at now, it's just really cool to see you doing your thing.
[00:50:25] Shaan Dasani: Well, I'm, I'm inspired by your, you know, going on the journey of hosting the podcast, cause I know too, as a creative, that's a lot of work. Like setting up the interviews and figuring out who the guests are gonna be and then, you know, the recording and editing, it's, it's a lot of, it's a lot of work and I really hope you - it sounds like you found a lot of fulfillment in this creative process too.
[00:50:44] Chris Angel Murphy: Yes, thank you. I think that's what's been helpful to keep the work - it being sustainable. Because sometimes it can just feel like really treacherous, especially thinking about everything we're going through right now on a larger scale and yeah. So to have some sort of creative outlets: nice.
But then you get like a taste for it and now I'm like, there's already like three other podcast ideas I have. And I'm like, "No. (laughs) I, I don't have time for those right now." I'm gonna - that's gonna have to come later.
But what's one allyship tip you'd like everyone listening to consider?
[00:51:19] Shaan Dasani: So two come to mind actually, two allyship tips. One is kind of personal, like an individual thing. And then the other is, you know, kind of like one is like an inward thing and the other one's an outward thing.
So I think number one: work through your own trauma. If we wanna be able to show up for other people, then we have to heal, we have to be able to come through our difficult points, you know, the things that that have been hard for us; to find strength on the other side.
I think everybody has wounds and that healing looks different for everybody, whether it's therapy or journaling or working out, you know, or all of the above or something else. Do what you need to do to be your strongest self, emotionally and mentally so that you can show up for others.
Two is: try to find connection points with folks. I don't know how I wanna phrase this, to be honest with you. I'm not saying like go out of your way to talk to people that are really uncomfortable for you. I'm just saying when we're in conversation with folks that we feel are different from us, let's try and find connection points.
And I think I'm saying that to cis folks. I'm actually saying that to cis folks who are trying to understand the trans community. I try to challenge myself to do that back, and it's not easy, but I will say it's maybe worth the effort.
[00:52:44] Chris Angel Murphy: Of course, you found a way to sneak two in. Gosh.
[00:52:48] Shaan Dasani: (laughs) I don't like rules, I'm a middle child. Remember?
[00:52:52] Chris Angel Murphy: I know us, like queer and trans folks, we love like a good explanation for things like, "Well, I'm a Virgo and my whatever, moon rising." (both laugh) And yeah, we're always finding excuses for shit. Like, "I feel so seen. Yes, I'm the middle child."
[00:53:04] Shaan Dasani: (laughs) I didn't even talk about my signs. Oh my God.
[00:53:08] Chris Angel Murphy: (laughs) Oh no. We can shove those in somewhere.
[00:53:11] Shaan Dasani: Or the next one. We'll talk about it next time.
[00:53:13] Chris Angel Murphy: Shaan, thank you, for your incredibly kind words. I will work on taking compliments better in the future.
It makes my heart happy to know that you're a possibility model for others on so many levels. I am thrilled to continue to watch your career and see what you do. I am wishing you all of the great success with "Agents of Change." And folks, I hope you stay on the lookout to see if it comes to a festival near you. You can follow updates at @AgentsofChangeMovie on Instagram.
I also wanna briefly take a moment to just thank everyone who attended the slew of events I held at the end of March. I got such great feedback from folks and I'm humbled. My co-hosts for two of the events were also brilliant. Thank you Travers and Rebecca for being the superstars you both are.
Rebecca and I also had such a great turnout and so much interest in our trans allyship event that we'll be hosting another one May 18th. Save the date and stay tuned for more details.
And now the final three, self-reflection questions.
4. What kinds of options and possibilities did I see for myself as a child?
5. Is there something I want to wear, but I think I can't for some reason. Why?
6. Do I have an experience that I don't have a word or label for, but I wish I did? What would that do for me?
Visit AllyshipIsAVerb.com for any resources and a full transcript of the episode. And remember, sometimes allyship means working through your own trauma.