[00:00:18] Chris Angel Murphy

Good morning, good afternoon, or good evening. You are listening to the Allyship is a Verb podcast where we explore and humanize LGBTQ+ allyship. I'm your host, Chris Angel, my pronouns are they/them.

[00:00:38] Tasha Colin

Hi, my name is Tasha Colin and my pronouns are they/them or she/her.

[00:00:42] Chris Angel Murphy

Before we started our interview, Tasha shared that they are fine with folks mixing their pronouns around and has no preference of one set over another. As a reminder, we recently learned on the podcast that mixing around someone's pronoun sets is called rolling pronouns. So, I'll be doing just that for her.

[00:01:03] Chris Angel Murphy

We met back when I lived in Los Angeles and was involved in the LGBTQ+ community organizing scene. She is an LGBTQ affirmative therapist and co-founder of Expanding Identities Development. Expanding Identities Development is an LGBTQ-focused consulting and training company. Basically, we do a lot of the same work. Tasha has been involved with organizations such as More Than Sex-Ed, Peace Over Violence, and the Los Angeles LGBT Center. They've also got a Master's in Clinical Psychology from Antioch University. And now, here's our conversation.

[00:01:42] Chris Angel Murphy

You shared with me that you are a lesbian, demisexual, agender, and an abolitionist. I'm wondering, what do those identities mean to you?

[00:01:54] Tasha Colin

I feel like they all mean very different things and it has also been a journey. Each one has kind of come after the other as I've been on my journey towards figuring out my identity. So, lesbian was the first identity I ever kind of chose for myself. I don't think I chose my sexuality, but I definitely chose the word I use for it. Because there's so much language out there, everyone's gonna have, um, different experiences, regardless of, um, I guess, like the one identity they choose or the one label they choose to use. So, yeah, lesbian is definitely one that I think I use most. And it was like my first queer identity, it's definitely the one I've identified with the longest. It also helped me find my community. So, that was also really cool. And then I think that demisexual piece has definitely come in a little later in my life.

[00:02:49] Chris Angel Murphy

Demisexual is a term used to describe an individual who experiences sexual attraction, only after forming an emotional connection. And it's not guaranteed that the person will experience sexual attraction. It's considered to be within the Asexual Spectrum, sometimes shortened to Ace Spectrum, which is a broad range of specific identities, each with their own flags, used within the asexual classification.

[00:03:20] Tasha Colin

That's one that I think is the toughest for people to understand when I explain it. That one is more of like, letting people in instead of like a coming out about it. I think I'm very intentional when I talk about my demisexuality, because it feels more personal. I also feel like I tend to get more judgment around it.

[00:03:40] Tasha Colin

Um, I would say agender is just the way I've understood my gender. And so that one feels a little trickier because we live in such a gendered society and agender is kind of the understanding that I don't identify with gender at all. It's not that I feel like both genders or neither. It's just like, I don't even acknowledge that gender is a thing. Like, I know that it is a thing that many people do identify with it in different ways. But for me, that's been kind of my own personal journey. And so understanding that this is the way I understand myself, and I can claim it in a label. But at the same time, sometimes the labels feel more political than they feel anything else. So, sometimes it feels more like it's a way for me to understand myself versus it being an identity that I would share with the world.

[00:04:36] Tasha Colin

And then the abolitionist piece is my ultimate goal. Breaking down these kind of hierarchical systems that we have in our society and really taking a systems approach to things, because everything's so intersectional. Even with the queer community, there's been so much harm done to the queer community historically, and so from an abolitionist kind-of-mindset/approach, way of moving through the world, I really want to be intentional about the ways in which I maybe perpetuate systems of harm and then kind of like challenging that. And then kind of just, everyone around me just, you know, understanding the ways in which the systems work together. And yeah, the ways in which we've just our society has perpetuated violence against all different types of minoritized populations. So yeah, that's kind of how I understand my- my abolitionist identity in myself.

[00:05:37] Chris Angel Murphy

Awesome. One myth and misconception I've heard about demisexuality is that the label isn't necessary because it's already the norm or that it's already the default. So why are we giving it a name and definition? Can you help to break down why this isn't true?

[00:06:02] Tasha Colin

Mmmm. Yeah, that's a great question. I think the only way for me to kind of explain that is to explain my own personal experience with it. Where growing up coming into my sexuality, and not just my lesbian identity, but all different parts of my sexuality. And also understanding more about the different types of attraction has really opened my eyes to how I navigate through, like, who I'm attracted to how I'm attracted to people. I guess, the one like- the easiest way to explain is kind of through examples where there was always this kind of, like, assumption that if I went out to say, a bar, like a queer bar, or lesbian bar or something where, you know, my friends would always ask me being like, "Oh, hey, that girl is cute. You should like hit on that person." Or like, "uh, what about that person?" And for me, it's like, my friends were always comfortable, kind of like, "oh, they're cute. I'll go up and talk to them, and maybe something will happen." And like one night stands and all that kind of stuff in this kind of like, sexualized kind of like mindset where it was- there was something in me that was like, that feels really uncomfortable. Like, I really don't feel comfortable doing that. And then there was there just felt like all this pressure to, like, be sexual with people, when it really takes me a long time to feel that sexual attraction to someone. And it never, like- I've never felt sexual attraction to someone I just met before. Um, it needs- it truly needs that emotional connection. I wouldn't- I don't identify as asexual because I do still experience sexual attraction, but it definitely needs that deep emotional piece first. Yeah, there's just like, there's always been kind of this pressure to like, be more sexual than I actually am. And I thought there was just something wrong with me. And I kind of just, like, pretended that- I don't know, I kind of just like go along with it. If like friends said something, I would kind of go along with it. But, knowing that's definitely that's not- totally in alignment with like, how I truly feel. Um, yeah, it's kind of even the idea of like going to bars or like, anything where there needs to be this kind of like instant attraction, um, it just reminds me that I'm not like everyone else or I don't think like everyone else.

[00:08:24] Tasha Colin

It's interesting because you mentioned that it's, "Why have this identity, when it feels like the norm?" But, I think when you really get into understanding the different types of attraction, yeah, it just feels like when you really get down to it- there does feel like this differentiation between the way my friends are able to engage with folks where it can just be sex, and there's no emotional feeling. That just feels so foreign to me. I can't even fathom kind of what that would be like. So, I came to understand demisexuality is like, "Oh, I'm not like that. So then who am I" kind-of-thing? So I've kind of defined my sexuality by what I'm not in that sense, which has been interesting for me, so.

[00:09:09] Chris Angel Murphy

Hmm.

[00:09:10] Tasha Colin

I guess, and this is maybe where the allyship part comes in, where it's like, this is how I would appreciate people going about this identity for me in terms of like, I would love people for just to like, stay curious around it versus like, you know, being like, "Oh, that's weird," or like, it doesn't- or for people to just to kind of dismiss it because I feel like it's very dismissed because it's like, it feels very nuanced. And I think that's where people get stuck is like, there's this like idea of like, okay, with, you know, other types of identities like lesbian, or gay, or nonbinary, or trans, or, you know, other identities that are technically more well-known in our society. I think people can understand them more because there's more examples. They're more- they feel more tangible. Whereas, like, demisexuality feels less tangible because attraction is very nuanced. And it's kind of like another layer of the identity. So, it's like, people think, "oh, lesbian." And that's it. And it's like, no, because then, so many different people identify as lesbian are going to experience their actual sexuality in different ways. So, I would love for people just to like, stay curious and just, you know, ask me questions about it. And also understand that, you know, if I'm out in a space with someone where there is this, like, if it's like a sexualized space, or you know, if it's a bar or spaces where there is this like expectation of some sort of like sexual connection, um, to just like, be mindful that I'm not going to experience it the way they might experience it. So, that's kind of the long answer for that.

[00:10:56] Chris Angel Murphy

You had said early on that claiming the identity of being a lesbian was-was pretty early for you. It was like one of the first identities you latched onto and later came to understand yourself as also being agender. Now, for folks who are especially newer to the LGBTQ+ community, trying to wrap their heads around those two identities and how those can coexist can be a lot. I'm wondering, did you experience any trouble reconciling those? And how do you explain that you are both a lesbian and agender to folks knowing that, you know, typically, the general explanation of lesbian might be like a woman who loves other women or something like that. So how have you reconciled that for yourself? And how do you explain it to people?

[00:11:50] Tasha Colin

Mmmm. We hang on too tightly to these like, very finite definitions of words. And I think that ultimately does us a disservice. Because then it- yeah, then people tend to struggle with, like, understanding how two can coexist at the same time. Whereas like, I have many other I identities within myself that like, I also am femme-presenting. There's just all these identities and I don't think they'll ever be able to like match up to one another for people's standards or people's expectations. I think the way I-I understand my gender identity, just feels so different from the way I experience my sexuality. I guess, clear-cut definition of what lesbian is, is like a woman-identified person who loves other women-identified people, but then it's like, that's also not taking into account like sexual attraction versus romantic attraction. And so it's like it's- one label can't, you know, explain everything. So I think that I just haven't- I guess I haven't found another word for it that would explain exactly my experience, because my experience feels so nuanced. Um, that I think that at the end of the day, it's more just about stay- I think staying curious. If other people can't understand it, it's more about what resonates with me, what aligns with me, and what feels good for me. I can explain it until the cows come home to people. [Chris Angel laughs] Um, but ultimately, it's just those are just the identities that I have truly felt aligned with me and who I am in the most positive way.

[00:13:39] Chris Angel Murphy

I love how you're talking about how you carry all these identities, and they may not all get along, but that doesn't take away from how those resonate with you. And I don't know, it's almost like I'm, I'm experiencing you right now as this like, puzzle, right? Where you're kind of borrowing pieces from maybe different puzzles sets and stuff, but it doesn't take away from like this. [Both laugh] This is really cheesy, this finished masterpiece that you're putting together. And I love what you said around asking other people to stay curious and ask you what your identities mean to you and have a conversation with you versus making assumptions and having stories in their own head. And I think what I'm also hearing, if I'm getting this right for you, but also the duality of you're staying curious about yourself. It's possible that you may, I don't want to say abandon some of these identities, but maybe like, release them and pick up other ones along the way as you go.

[00:14:36] Tasha Colin

Yeah, absolutely. I am always open to myself changing and identity just being fluid and staying very present in that and continually checking in with myself where it's like, "okay, do I still feel like my pronouns are they/them, she/her? Do they feel different?" Yeah, it's just yeah, again, like you said, like still being curious about myself as well. Um, we are so fluid and changing all the time. Like, I think I would do a disservice to myself if I felt very like, chained to these identities, because then that doesn't allow me to grow and evolve as needed. So.

[00:15:16] Chris Angel Murphy

Mhm. At times when people come out within the LGBTQ+ community, they can field a lot of invasive questions from well-intentioned people. And with that in mind, I know you said that you'd rather have conversations with folks and have them ask you questions. And I'm wondering, are there questions, or at least one question in particular, that you wish people would stop asking you?

[00:15:47] Tasha Colin

[Tasha laughs] Um, [Tasha laughs] yes, um, it's a little like crass. I don't know if that's, like appropriate. [Chris Angel laughs] I mean, it's not that bad, actually, um, I tend to have longer nails. And so that's one of like, the main questions that people ask me, is how I'm a lesbian and I also have long nails. [Tasha laughs] It's like, it's very, like, I get that a lot. [Chris Angel sucks in air audibly, both laugh] And I don't know, it's like, out of everything else. Yeah, for whatever reason, I've just gotten that multiple times. Um.

[00:16:17] Chris Angel Murphy

Well we-we could have a whole episode about that, [Tasha laughs] because I mean, there's also people who are very particular about which nails you clip for, you know, sexual activities.

[00:16:29] Tasha Colin

Right. [Tasha laughs]

[00:16:29] Chris Angel Murphy

There's a lot of debate, there's like, [Chris Angel laughs] there really is as far as like, which, usually two, it is.

[00:16:37] Tasha Colin

Mhm, mhm, right [Tasha laughs].

[00:16:38] Chris Angel Murphy

Right, and so it's just like fascinating that people are like, "pointer finger and middle finger," or "middle finger and ring finger," and it's... [Tasha laughs] Anyway, I'm not gonna ask you that. [Tasha laughs] So, I do appreciate that. And yeah, you know, people are curious. And it's, I don't know, I think it highlights this larger issue of, we can have a very limited understanding of sexuality.

[00:16:59] Tasha Colin

Mmmm, mhm.

[00:16:59] Chris Angel Murphy

And how to express that and engage with others. And so I guess, what's something you wish people asked you more of instead?

[00:17:10] Tasha Colin

I wonder, actually, why people don't ask me this more. But I- but I use both they/them and she/her pronouns. And no one really asked me about it. I personally feel like I definitely identify with both pretty equally, because I don't think I could compare and contrast being like, "Oh, I feel like 'they' feels like 60% and 'she' feels like 40%" is kind of like- I can't really- they just they both serve very important purposes to me. I don't think a lot of people ask why I use them. But also, not a lot of people ask if I prefer one over the other either. So, I think that's really interesting, too.

[00:17:47] Chris Angel Murphy

That's something that I asked you before

[00:17:50] Tasha Colin

Mhm, mhm. Absolutely.

[00:17:51] Chris Angel Murphy

-we started recording was, you know, I did want to acknowledge that you use both sets. And to your point, sometimes when people put one set, first, it can be the one that they may prefer the most. However, then there's folks such as yourself, where like you're saying, you identify with both equally. When you identify with both equally, I wanted to make sure I was also capturing that in this episode.

[00:18:18] Tasha Colin

Mhm.

[00:18:18] Chris Angel Murphy

And so, you know, you just let me know to sort of mix them around. And that was great, I can do that. I've noticed that folks can get a little awkward and not sure if they can ask about something like pronouns. But, then they ask you about your nails and so that

[00:18:32] Tasha Colin

Right [Tasha laughs]

[00:18:32] Chris Angel Murphy

-that's when it comes back to us being very complex human beings, [Tasha laughs] because the motivations are different there, right? I'm asking you about the sex act, because I'm just trying to understand it for my own purposes, really, it doesn't do anything for you. Whereas this would be something that would honor you better, right? To ask you more of like- about your pronouns and having a check-in and saying, "Hey, you know, it's been three months or so. I just want to make sure these still both are the pronoun sets you want me to use. You still want me to mix them up, right?" Like

[00:18:34] Tasha Colin

Mhm

[00:18:36] Chris Angel Murphy

that- that's more serving for you. And so, people may not ask you that as much, right?

[00:19:05] Tasha Colin

Right.

[00:19:05] Chris Angel Murphy

I'm wondering, I mean, do you feel the same way about that as to kind of- I'm just thinking out loud based on you know, in the moment.

[00:19:13] Tasha Colin

Yeah, no, definitely. Um, yeah, I really appreciate you asking at the beginning. And I think only one other person who I've had a conversation with like, since I've started using they/she has asked me maybe like a few of my friends too, but like, for the most part whenever I use my pronouns, because I usually introduce myself with my pronouns whenever I'm in like a public space or like a group or something like that. I've just made it so normalized for myself so that hopefully other people start doing it. [Tasha laughs]

[00:19:41] Chris Angel Murphy

Mhm.

[00:19:41] Tasha Colin

Um, yeah, like to make it something that you don't just assume. But yeah, every like, like you said, just do a check-in again, would be.. like, it's also allowing me to check in with myself as well. It kind of gives me the, I don't know if the permission is the right word, but it kind of like it sparks this thing for me being like, "Oh, wait, are my pronouns still this?" And like, it allows me to check in with myself as well. And to do that, so it's kind of like, that's kind of cool as well. So.

[00:20:11] Chris Angel Murphy

Yeah, and it's this whole thing around consent and just wanting to honor what other people are needing.

[00:20:18] Tasha Colin

Absolutely, yeah.

[00:20:19] Chris Angel Murphy

So, you know, for us, and because I use they/them pronouns, it may seem to some folks that it would make more sense for us to check-in with each other. But I don't know, I think there's opportunity for everyone to just be able to check-in and say, "Hey, is this still working for me?" Maybe not and no harm there. And just checking and just being like, "no, feel pretty firm, you know, in the pronouns I'm still using here." And, you know, yeah, it's interesting.

[00:20:47] Chris Angel Murphy

At times, people in the LGBTQ+ community may come across a book, a movie, song, or something like that that shifts their life and can even give them permission to be or embrace who they are. Was there a similar moment that inspired you to be who you are today?

[00:21:09] Tasha Colin

Hmm. There was this one book when I was a sophomore in high school that I randomly came across in a bookstore one day in, like, the young adult section. I don't know how I found it. But, I saw the front cover and it had these two girls on it. And I was like, something just like, like, lit up in me, like I just like was like, "Oh, what is this?" Like, it just I had never, [Chris Angel laughs] I don't know, it was just you know, and I was like, what, 15? And I remember buying it and just like reading it secretly at nighttime, like under my covers. Umm, I felt like someone was writing my story, like, I felt so seen. It was such a simple, like, very, like cheesy, you know, like, [Chris Angel laughs] teenage love story between these two girls at high school. And I feel like, it wasn't even that long ago that I was in high school. But nowadays, there's- I feel like there's so much representation. It was like, whoa, like, I didn't feel alone anymore. I realized that there were other options that- it was such an interesting experience to feel seen in that way. It was such a small gesture, but it was like, it made such a huge impact that like, I just felt happier. You know, like, I had felt like I had been in the dark for so long. And it's like, you don't know something until you know it. And so that kind of opened my eyes. Like, I didn't realize I felt so isolated until I didn't feel isolated anymore. And I felt like, there were other people out there who felt the way I did. So, that was really cool.

[00:22:48] Chris Angel Murphy

Sounds really powerful. I'm wondering two questions. One of these might be a little odd. So naturally, I'm wondering if you can remember the name of it. And my second question is: I'm a very visual person, Tasha. And so, as you were talking about reading this under your covers, I'm just like, imagining you with like, your flashlight, [Tasha laughs] that's like battery powered. Was that basically like the vibe that was going on during this?

[00:23:09] Tasha Colin

Kind of, yeah. I remember exactly the bed I was in, like, [Chris Angel laughs] where I was living at the time. And to answer your first question, the book is called Keeping You a Secret. Where I was like, kind of buying it at this bookstore, like hoping no one would see it, and like having that secret. And so it was- it felt like I went with the whole theme and vibe of it.

[00:23:29] Chris Angel Murphy

Being a young person, were you nervous about buying that and what they would say when you got to the counter or like, were you kind of like hiding it from folks? So they couldn't like, you know, with like your hand or anything like that, like the cover and..?

[00:23:41] Tasha Colin

I definitely remember being, like, nervous, like, hesitating, like, wondering if I should buy it or not. But I think- it wasn't too- the cover wasn't too explicit. So, I felt like it was like, still pretty safe. So, yeah. [Tasha laughs]

[00:23:53] Chris Angel Murphy

Mmm. Yeah. Part of allyship is recognizing that we can make mistakes, which can be quite humbling. Is there a time you wished you had done a better job of practicing allyship? And if so, what would you do differently now?

[00:24:13] Tasha Colin

Hmm. I think in the past have assumed things that I probably shouldn't have, whether those were conscious or unconscious. I could have and I'm trying to do a better job of not assuming. I've been in the queer field and like doing queer work or, you know, studying queer things, or you know, anything queer-related for a good number of years now -about eight or nine years and I still have those blind spots that are kind of unconscious where I accidentally assume things and so I just want to be more mindful of that and constantly aware of it. So, yeah.

[00:24:56] Chris Angel Murphy

When you mention making assumptions, does that mean, like, maybe how people might identify, or could you share a little more about that?

[00:25:04] Tasha Colin

Yeah, absolutely. I think how people identify. This is a random example of, um, I have a friend who's- she was seeing, you know, this couple, and she didn't say anything about them except she was just seeing a couple. Then she had mentioned them like a week or two later being like, "Oh, yeah, I saw this couple again." I just unconsciously assumed it was a man and a woman. And this wasn't that long ago. But it was such an unconscious assumption that when she did mention that it was two men, I was just like, I was kind of blown away. I was like, "Oh, my God, how did I just automatically assume that without even thinking about it?" Like, it was so unconscious. And I just kind of like, took myself by surprise. I was like, "Oh, I really need to acknowledge how deeply ingrained our heteronormative society is in us and is still in me." And I'm still unlearning that and unpacking that. It keeps me humble as well and like practicing that humility. So, yeah.

[00:25:05] Chris Angel Murphy

I love that. I'm wondering, for those who are listening right now, did you fall into that same trap? Like, did you also make that assumption? And I'm thinking out loud right now, did I just do that, too? And I think I would normally make that assumption.

[00:26:19] Chris Angel Murphy

So we've been talking a lot about invasive questions, things that you want to be asked about more of instead, and just we've been going on this whole journey together. I'm wondering, what's one allyship tip that you'd like for everyone listening to consider?

[00:26:39] Tasha Colin

Honestly, I would love if people wouldn't assume or- I would love for people to ask me what my identities mean for me in order to know how to support me better. Versus maybe hearing how I identify and then assuming certain things. Yet, just asking me how they can support me [Tasha laughs] is supportive. [Tasha laughs]

[00:27:10] Chris Angel Murphy

Yeah, like, what I'm taking away from that is, if you've just shared with me that you have XYZ identities, that rather than me making my own assumptions about what that means, like first, maybe I can thank you for sharing that with me. But also, if I want to have that bid to connect with you, I can also ask like, "Hey, is it is it okay, if I ask you what those mean to you?" Does that kind of sound like what- how you would want folks to react in that situation, or?

[00:27:45] Tasha Colin

Yeah, yeah, I think that's definitely pretty- pretty accurate. What I really want people to think about in terms of allyship is the internal versus external motivation of why they are an ally. I think that's just something I'm trying to, like figure out more, as well is like, I'm an ally to like other identities in the community as well. I think we can all be allies or like active allies, and we can also be better allies to ourselves, I think, in our own identities.

[00:28:24] Chris Angel Murphy

What do you mean by being a better ally toward ourselves or internally? What might that look like?

[00:28:32] Tasha Colin

Um, I run in very queer circles and one of the common threads amongst all of us, I feel like, is this internal monologue of like, "I'm not queer enough, or I'm not this enough." And I think, obviously, that comes from like this internalized, like heteronormativity and cisnormativity. We could do a better job of not being so hard on ourselves. Knowing that, like, we are queer enough, or wherein- we are just enough, basically. Um, I definitely have that in myself, where I'm like, "Oh, I'm not this identity enough or this enough." Really, you know, trying to stop those thought processes and like, take a step back and be like, "I am enough."

[00:29:20] Chris Angel Murphy

Totally. And I think what set this next question up perfectly is, I'd love to ask you now, what does allyship mean to you?

[00:29:31] Tasha Colin

Mmmm. I think allyship is reactionary because we essentially wouldn't need allyship if we had better systems of care in place or like more understanding, or just like, more openness around all different kinds of identities and experiences. Yeah, I think allyship is a great tool for getting us towards our liberation idea. Allyship is, like you said, is a verb and just a constant journey. A constant, in every sense of the word. Constant education, constant checking with ourselves, constant, like, consent with everyone around you. Like, I feel like it's just this, yeah, this journey, and it's not performative. A deeply-rooted thing of I want to see this world be better, like, I want this to be a better place for everyone around me.

[00:30:34] Chris Angel Murphy

How does it differ for you, compared to like someone calling themselves an ally? Or if someone's an advocate? Or is there any difference for you? Do they resonate with you? Do you like them? Do you dislike any of them for any reason? Do you think they're all kind of jumbled together?

[00:30:53] Tasha Colin

I think advocate feels a little more watered-down than ally, even though I feel like both sit weird with me as identities themselves. I don't really like either one as an identity. Um, I'm not really sure, but it's a good question. I haven't really thought too much about it.

[00:31:13] Chris Angel Murphy

Sure. So it sounds like maybe there's this, you have like a preference for like allyship as an action and this ongoing thing versus like someone calling themselves an ally or an advocate. Like, there's just more weight to just the practicing of allyship. I don't want to put words in your mouth, I'm just wondering.

[00:31:31] Tasha Colin

Yeah, because like allyship, is... It's kind of- it should be the baseline, if that makes sense? Like, is what people should be doing versus like, "Oh, I'm an ally." Like, I'm not trying to be like really hard on people who are allies. Um, I was having a conversation with like, a person- a friend of mine, who is both cisgender and straight. And they were explaining to me that, you know, their boyfriend is not homophobic. Like, she was very, like, surprised that like, he didn't have any homophobia in him. I was like, "Okay, great." You know, but then in my mind, I was like, you know, that's the bare minimum.

[00:32:15] Chris Angel Murphy

Mmm.

[00:32:15] Tasha Colin

Not being homophobic, not being queerphobic is like the bare minimum. Yeah, it should just be something everyone should be doing versus like, a label or like something that other people aren't doing and this differentiates me from other people, if that makes sense.

[00:32:20] Chris Angel Murphy

Yeah. And you were also talking about, I think it was liberation, was that the word you used?

[00:32:39] Tasha Colin

Mhm.

[00:32:39] Chris Angel Murphy

Yeah, you're talking about this as a frame of, you know, in utopia, right? [Both laugh] Which is fun to think about sometimes.

[00:32:48] Tasha Colin

Yeah.

[00:32:48] Chris Angel Murphy

That we just have liberation. What does- what would liberation look like for you?

[00:32:54] Tasha Colin

Hoo! That's a loaded question. [Tasha laughs]

[00:32:56] Chris Angel Murphy

[Chris Angel laughs] It's a big question.

[00:32:57] Tasha Colin

Yeah, but it's a very good question.

[00:32:59] Chris Angel Murphy

Yeah, what are some elements? Like what-how are we, I guess, treating each other? How are we showing up? What would sort of help you to know that we're on our way towards that liberation?

[00:33:09] Tasha Colin

Hmm. Like, I think for liberation, we focus so much on like, people individually needing to do things to liberate each other. But I think that, however this can come about, there needs to be this, like, system change as well. Like, it needs to be just as equally a system change as it does people doing individual actions to help us get towards liberation. I think that I have this like, ideal of what liberation could look like. But, I also have this like, realistic pragmatic approach of I probably won't see it in my lifetime, if it'll ever exist. Um, I think we can make strides towards it. But there's defunding, you know, the police. Investing more into, like, social services and education, and we're really shifting how our society is set up. And that takes both, you know, individual and system change, and then everything in between. Once those systems become more balanced because they're the wealth disparity and racial disparities, and just everything in those contexts. Um, yeah, if we can move towards kind of balancing more and allowing people to live better lives. And there's not this, like, huge gap in these. Yeah, all of these conflicts and everything that society is kind of going through right now and has always kind of gone through is there's always conflict. No one can ever agree on anything. And I'm talking about I guess, America specifically. There's no liberation because people are just fighting all the time. So how can we ever really even make strides towards that when we can't even agree on anything?

[00:34:59] Chris Angel Murphy

Yeah and then I think what's challenging too is, is like, as you're sharing these systems that we're dealing with and challenges we're facing it's, it kind of almost can feel like liberation isn't attainable. Because to your point, like you just mentioned about how we can't all agree on everything. And surely that definitely even shows up within the LGBTQ+ community. [Chris Angel laughs]

[00:35:23] Tasha Colin

Yeah, mhm. Yup.

[00:35:24] Chris Angel Murphy

And so it's like, at what point? How do we get to decide what gets to be like the one truth for everyone? If that's not how everyone's feeling. And does that mean, then we're in this giant echo chamber? And I won't let us explore that rabbit hole today. [Both laugh] I think it's just it's interesting to think about, and I, you know, I guess we've covered a lot today, Tasha. And the last question, I want to ask you, and I know this is a big one for you. And so I'm wondering, can you share about one time that you felt truly supported by someone and what they did to show up for you, especially if it was related to any of your LGBTQ+ identities?

[00:36:09] Tasha Colin

The first thing that comes to mind is it actually- [Tasha laughs] it actually relates [Chris Angel laughs] to a different identity that I don't identify with anymore. But like, even before I read the Keeping You a Secret book, I knew there was something in me- um, I had some attraction to the same gender/same sex because I started to get this huge crush on my- one of my best friends in middle school. And I tried to deny it for a really long time. My stepsister at the time, we were becoming good friends. And I don't know what prompted me to tell her, but I told her that I thought I was bisexual. And that was the first time I ever kind of like, expressed some part of me that felt different than, you know, what I was told to be in society. I had no idea how she would react. Yeah, I don't know what prompted me to tell her specifically, but I just remember her sitting there and being like, "Okay! that's awesome." And literally, those three words were like, "Cool!" I felt like this huge weight, like this relief of like, "Oh, I'm trying to figure myself out. And it's, that's okay. Like, just even exploring things is okay." Even though like, I phrased it, like, "I think I'm this," she was like, "Okay," and she just sat with me. And it just like- it was like this container of just like, it just felt so safe, in that certain moment. Actually thinking about it now, I haven't really reflected on that moment for a really long time. Because I remember it was actually in Disney World. [Both laugh] We were on this trip and we're like having lunch at this one place and I just felt so compelled to tell her. I don't know why. And yeah, and we just like sat and it just felt so safe. And I think like, that was maybe one of the foundational or like pivotal points, which allowed me to continue to open up on my journey of figuring out my queer identity. Yeah, that was probably maybe one of the biggest things that has helped me in my journey. So, yeah.

[00:38:32] Chris Angel Murphy

What a beautiful moment and how great that you're able to tap into that years later.

[00:38:38] Tasha Colin

Mhm, mhm.

[00:38:41] Chris Angel Murphy

Visit AllyshipIsAVerb.com for any resources and a full transcript of the episode. And remember, sometimes allyship means asking people what their identities mean to them.