[00:17] Chris Angel Murphy
Well, hello there. My name is Chris Angel and my pronouns are they/them. Welcome to Allyship is a Verb, the LGBTQ+ podcast that explores and humanizes practicing allyship for the LGBTQ+ community and beyond!

[00:37] Jesse Freidin
Hey, my name is Jesse Freidin and my pronouns are he/him.

[00:40] Chris Angel Murphy
Britney Spears just released her first song in what, six years? And I'm trying really hard not to just burst into song right now. It's just, it's with Elton John. It's catchy as hell. It is looping in my head. Gay problems, am I right? Anyway, I want to thank Rebecca Minor, the gender specialist, I feel like I'm always named dropping her, whatever! We're friends; that's what's happening. So I want to thank Rebecca Minor for introducing me to Jesse and his work. Jesse was a leading Fine Art dog photographer for the past 15 years and now focuses his attention on elevating the experience of trans and transgender nonconforming community through portraiture and interviews. His photography is part of over 150 private collections and has been exhibited in galleries from coast to coast.

[01:42] Chris Angel Murphy
His current series entitled "Are You OK?" addresses the dangers of the current wave of anti-trans legislation sweeping the States in a passionate attempt to erase stigma and elevate the voices of those affected most. He is also the creator of three viral photography series: the Doggie Gaga Project; When Dogs Heal: Powerful Stories of People Living with HIV and the Dogs That Saved Them; and Finding Shelter: Portraits of Love, Healing, and Survival. His work is really impressive and touching. So I hope you'll take an opportunity to check it out, buy his books, and if you have the financial means, please consider helping to fund the "Are You OK?" series so that he can continue his work, meeting with trans youth all over the country.

[02:38] Chris Angel Murphy
And so I don't have to cut as much of the interview, we're gonna get right into it. So our first three self-reflection questions are:

1. Do I think the media is doing a good job of accurately reporting on Monkey Pox? Also known as MPOX or MPV.

2. If I take road trips or travel, do I have to think much about my safety?

3. Have I seen any LGBTQ+ related stickers on cars where I live? How often do I see them?

Remember to stick around at the end of our conversation for three more self-reflection questions before you go. And here's our conversation.

[03:31] Chris Angel Murphy
Perfect. Okay. Diving into the questions, you are a feminist, queer, male, Jewish, sober, and a storytelling artist. What do those intersections mean to you?

[03:46] Jesse Freidin
Yeah, I think those identities are byproducts of many things. One, you know, my family history, I think it's, they're part of my history as a young, queer person growing up. I grew up in New England. I think that's part of it. I think it's part of how I have been raised by other queer people. I think all those identities, yeah, they're sort of like cross sections of the spaces that I live in.

[04:15] Chris Angel Murphy
Being a storyteller, you've captured so many stories from various angles. So, you've captured the love between dogs and their human families. You've told the stories of animal shelters through the volunteers' perspectives and why they were volunteering. And now you're also focusing on trans and nonbinary youth across the States. How do you manage to hold space for so many stories when you go on these road trips, stop after stop?

[04:45] Jesse Freidin
Yeah, I think the thing that unites all of the portrait work that I do whether it's for a specific project or the commissions I used to do, as secret as I think it is or not, the theme that pulls all this together is me looking at unconditional love, and what that means, and how it exists, and where it exists. You know, I'm not a Type A person, I don't love to talk to strangers. I'm not, like, super chit-chatty [laughs] outside of my small group of friends.

[05:15] Jesse Freidin
But I have an endless capacity to listen to people's stories and hold space for them and be kind of a voyeur. I come from a family of therapists [laughs] and I was raised by many, many doctors and therapists and I always said I was- I had no interest in any of that kind of work. But I think my interest in the human experience and unconditional love comes from sort of setting up a situation where there are boundaries. Whether it's there's sort of guidelines to how to interact with- with my subjects. And that, for me, makes it feel safe to ask questions and listen. And take on only what I can take on. When that session is over, I do my best to let it go and I just keep moving. And I sort of try and flow with people's experiences. And it's incredibly, incredibly, fascinating.

[06:09] Chris Angel Murphy
Is there some sort of ritual you've developed for yourself, or like some sort of self-care steps that you've put in place after those to facilitate, like, releasing those stories?

[06:23] Jesse Freidin
I am not a self-care guru. [Both laugh] Probably like the last on that list of those people. I believe in self-care, I do what I can. Certainly, as a queer person in this world, I think everyone needs to take care of themselves. When I'm especially telling these stories of trans youth because it's so personal to me, but even when I was doing my project with people living with HIV, and when I was doing my project with animal shelter volunteers and listening to people for 15 years talk about their dogs; it's really emotional. Like, what I'm addicted to: listening to people's emotions. I don't necessarily want to tell them my emotions, or my deepest, darkest thoughts, although I'm getting better at that. I really love being able to connect with someone and have them open up to me and tell their story.

[07:11] Jesse Freidin
So, when I'm doing this kind of work, from the very beginning of this project, "Are You OK?" I have always had the same approach and this sort of ritual started. I was like, on my way to Albuquerque, from Santa Fe, which is only an hour drive, to do my very first test series. I had two kids I was going to photograph; this is like a year and a half or more ago. I knew what I wanted the images to look like, but I knew there was a piece missing about how to get the kid in the right mental space in a short period of time. And it's a really easy drive, you drive in one direction through the desert, and it's very kind of meditative. And within that hour drive, I had this idea of, "what if I did a meditation exercise with the kids to hold space?" And that's what I've done ever since.

[07:58] Jesse Freidin
And so to, sort of, come together with my subjects for this project so that we're coming- we're both coming from honest, authentic spaces, and we're meeting each other in the same space. No one has more power, no one has more importance. Doing a breathing exercise with them, I do it every single time, so I'm doing this over and over and over and over again. It does help me. And at the end of the sessions, I am grateful and thankful. And I do my best to tell a true story of their experience and the rest, it's not up to me, you know, so.

[08:33] Chris Angel Murphy
You somehow, I think, got my questions because you answered one just now [Both laugh]. I was gonna ask you how you came to do those meditations- is meditation something you do in your personal life, as well? Or is it only for this project?

[08:46] Jesse Freidin
No, I do not meditate. I am not good at sitting still, [laughs] which is obvious. [Chris Angel laughs] Sitting still, I don't like to sit with my thoughts in silence and stillness. I do like to process my thoughts through movement. I like hiking, and walking, and being, and driving is actually very meditative for me. I need to have motion, like, kinetic energy, while I'm processing my feelings. I've learned that over the years, it's been very helpful for me. And again, I don't know where that idea came from to do that breathing exercise, but it didn't come from me, it came from the universe, I think, and I haven't changed it one bit. You know, I've used the same approach from the very first portrait that I did, and, of course, I've thought about this idea for a long time and it made sense because I put myself in that in that kid's position: what would I want to hear from a photographer? So it's working, so I'm not gonna change it. [laugh]

[09:40] Chris Angel Murphy
Oh, that's beautiful. You've told me that this is the only public trans and queer project that you've done to date, and I'm curious, what have you learned so far while photographing and talking with the youth during your travels?

[09:56] Jesse Freidin
Yeah, you know, I did actually start out only photographing kids, when I photograph kids up to 24, so I don't know if that's kids, or youth, or what?

[10:05] Chris Angel Murphy
Yes, youth.

[10:06] Jesse Freidin
Okay, young humans, thank you. I did start out photographing only in states that had legislation. But now I'm expanding that a bit; I'm really going anywhere because obviously, these laws are affecting every queer, trans person in the country, in the world. So, you know, geographical boundaries are, are made up, and so I'm really going wherever. You know, I've learned that what, maybe I'm not sure if I've learned this, or I've just, it's just been sort of reinforced to me- but [that] overused trope of trans young person: sad, unloved, no agency, no ability to change the world- is just, it's overused, it is harmful, and young trans people want to speak out. And they have incredible strength, they know what they want to say, they want to create change, they want to be heard, and they're powerful, and they're full of joy, and love, and kindness.

[11:04] Jesse Freidin
That's what I assumed I would find, I mean, and I'm finding that. So I like when my theories are proven. You know, I didn't know that everyone's story would be the same. And everyone's experienced as a trans, nonbinary, young person are very different. But I ask the same questions every single time. And the last thing that I always ask is: "what is your message to other young, trans people?" And everyone has the same message. And it's, it's not cause, I don't think they're like reading the few stories on my website, I think they're just saying the same thing, like, "we have you, you'll be okay, you'll find your people, I believe in you." And these are, you know, kids speaking to total strangers. I think that maybe has been one thing that's been surprising. It's just the incredible, cohesive message that I'm finding.

[11:51] Chris Angel Murphy
How do you keep knowing what I'm going to ask you next? [Jesse laughs] Cause I was just going to ask you, if anything has surprised you so far.

[11:58] Jesse Freidin
People have asked me that before. And I guess, you know, it's hard to know what's surprising because I feel so- I'm trying to hold space for these kids and parents, and they're doing the same thing for me. I don't feel like anything is very surprising because I've been where these kids have been. But yeah, I think the resiliency and joy that can come from a young, trans person's mouth after speaking about the hardships of their experience- yes, that has surprised me. And it happens with every single kid. I mean, you know, you asked, "How do I deal with and hold space for all these stories?" And I think it's because I intentionally tried to steer us towards a positive note at the very end. It's like a palate cleanser, brings us back to empowerment. So that's helpful.

[12:44] Chris Angel Murphy
Families can be very protective of their own, right? People within their family, chosen or otherwise. What kinds of conversations do you have to have with the families to gain their trust and that of the youth as well?

[13:00] Jesse Freidin
Yeah, there's an incredible amount of trust building, sort of on the front end of what happens. I usually spend six to eight weeks planning each of these trips, doing outreach to queer centers, PFLAGs, parents, kids, individuals. But I need to make sure that the kids that I'm photographing and their families, or chosen family, trust me and know that I'm not an outsider. They know that I am a professional that has a proven track record, which I feel like I can be proud of at this point. That I've published other books, that I am a sensitive human that have their best interests in mind. It's- it's so, so, so crucial for me to do that work, and I think the way that I've been doing that is sending really clear pitches to any of these organizations, you know, trying to have that same strong messaging in the social media that I'm using to do outreach.

[13:51] Jesse Freidin
I just got back from this big East Coast trip. I spent two months or six weeks at least, every day in front of my computer, answering emails, doing Zooms with parents and organizers, answering the phone, anything that I could do to answer questions. I want kids and families and organizers and queer centers to vet me. I don't think it's responsible to meet anyone without vetting me. And so many kids and parents, when they show up for our session, are like, "Oh, I saw you did this and this and this," or like, "I know about your background," or "I Googled you." I want them to do that. I'm proud that I have a clean track record and that I've done other projects, you know, where I'm doing my best to, you know, strip away harmful stigmatization around a marginalized community. And I think that that's- all those things are helping build trust.

[14:38] Chris Angel Murphy
You're a fairly private person yourself, so, and I think you answered this a little bit just now, but is there anything, in particular, you say to the youth about who you are to make that connection with them?

[14:51] Jesse Freidin
I always say during speaking about the project, ahead of time, that I identify as a queer, trans, photographer, human. I don't like the word "trans," I don't think it fits me. I don't ever change my gender, and my medical history is no one's business. That being said, every single time a kid and family shows up before I even pick up my camera, we spend a few minutes chatting and I tell them that I'm part of the community. I tell them a bit about my experience, my sort of medical experience. I tell them, that I've been where they have been- that I was a kid like them, and that I'm an adult, and that you can be a adult like us, and you can have lives. And that I want them to really understand that I am not an outsider.

[15:37] Jesse Freidin
I say the same thing pretty much every time and I think I can see the moment when kids are like, "Oh, you really are that person, like, there are adults that exist." You know, and I can see families, like, I can see their faces just change. You know, for me, that's very healing to sort of show myself in a way and for them just to sort of respond to that. So they know that like, I think it helps parents know, their kids might be okay, their kids could have lives and live to age 41. Like, so, yeah, it's really important for me to say that to them.

[16:07] Chris Angel Murphy
Because you mentioned it: I know that you've shared with me before that you don't align with calling yourself "trans," it's just, it doesn't resonate for you. Do you still spend any intentional time within the trans community or spend time with other trans people, even though again, that's not an identity you necessarily carry?

[16:29] Jesse Freidin
For the past 20 years, I really haven't. I'm very grateful to always have a very small group of other guys that I somehow find in every- wherever I live: and that's been my community. I've not participated a ton outwardly in like, public, queer and trans stuff. That being said, over the past couple years, I've been craving community because I've lived in much smaller cities. That, in combination with the Trump presidency, and the insurrection, and this onslaught of laws, has really lit a fire in me to return to community in ways that feel comfortable with me.

[17:03] Jesse Freidin
I've been able to find a lot of community online over the past couple of years, join a couple communities that already exist, create one or two spaces of my own that feel good. I think what I've learned mostly is that, if I feel like I don't fit into a specific group that already exists, I can always make my own. And I think that's a big part of what I like to hear in terms of the queer and trans community: is everyone's an individual. And to try and lump us into one experience or one or two narratives- and that doesn't work for me.

[17:34] Chris Angel Murphy
And I know that you're very intentional about calling yourself a queer human. What does that give you that you see yourself in that?

[17:41] Jesse Freidin
Hmm. I say it a little bit tongue in cheek, to be honest, just because obviously, the binary does not work for everybody. I feel really good in the binary as a man, that's always how I've been, and it fits me, but I don't think the binary is important. So if someone were to really ask me how I identify, I identify as a queer man. But I am aware that not everyone can fit into a binary box, nor should they obviously. So, deep down, I'm just a queer human. I think it's nice that our lexicon of queer identities is growing. It's so powerful that we can have like, these fine-tuned labels.

[18:20] Jesse Freidin
I don't really believe in the concept of "out" or "in" or "being in the closet" or" being out of the closet," or... I think the concept of "the closet" must have been created by cisgendered, straight people who want to make us feel like we're different. So I do not believe in that kind of garbage. I don't think people need to be out or in; just live your life. And if you want to share information about your personal life with anyone, you choose when and how, and where to do that. That being said, I feel as though I'm at a point where I know who I am, and I know how to articulate who I am as a man, as a queer man in this world.

[18:56] Jesse Freidin
I still believe I don't owe anyone any kind of information about my medical history, nor does anybody. You wouldn't go up and ask someone, "do you have HIV? Or do you have Parkinson's disease? Or are you dyslexic or what?" Because that's just inappropriate. That being said, I feel much more empowered to stand up for my own community because I have done enough therapy and enough sort of self-work to know that it doesn't matter what people think of me; it doesn't matter how they may understand or misunderstand who I am or what I'm about. I used to be very, very, very afraid of being misunderstood and really get angry about being misunderstood. Somehow that's shifted. I can't really explain it.

[19:37] Jesse Freidin
But I will say that if there were a time for a marginalized community to speak out- which I think any marginalized community is at risk right now in our political climate- now is the time. And I do feel strong enough to do this work and know that I can do this kind of advocacy work, and I can still remain exactly who I am. And I can still keep a lot of information private, and I don't need to perform any sort of identity for anybody. And that feels freeing, to be honest.

[20:10] Chris Angel Murphy
It sounds like it. How has being more vocal and sharing more about your identities, especially with the trans and nonbinary youth and their families, impacted you?

[20:23] Jesse Freidin
Hmm. If you'd asked me like, two years ago, or three years ago, would I ever speak about my own identity, or do any work, even close to my identity, I would be like, "nope, not interested. Next idea, please." You know, I can't explain why, necessarily, this is where I'm at other than a strong reaction to my own queer and trans survival and the political climate.

[20:47] Jesse Freidin
That being said, the surprising sort of byproduct of working on this project is that I feel so much more free to create work that I want to create, I feel more free to not care what anyone thinks about me or who I am. And I feel free to stand up for myself. I'm not a pacifist queer. I am, whatever the opposite of that is, [laughs] without igniting too much of a, like, fight between how we should be. But yeah, I feel much freer to stand up for myself and defend myself in this moment. Because for me, that is the only way to be, that's the only way that I can survive this moment of extreme violence towards our community.

[21:26] Jesse Freidin
So, all those things together have made me just feel a lot more free. And it's helped my mental health for sure. Because I'm not carrying as much need for privacy. I used to really believe in the beginning of my career, when I was doing private commissions, I used to really believe that if anyone found out anything about my personal life- that my career would be over. There was a few things that happened in the beginning of my career where I got a bunch of attention, which was nice, but I couldn't enjoy it because I was so concerned that I would be misunderstood and wouldn't be allowed to have my career. So I just kept things very private, and that was a bit of a burden.

[21:59] Chris Angel Murphy
When you did your work with the people living with HIV, called "When Dogs Heal," or now as you're working on this project, you've had quite a few people follow your career because you have a lot of repeat clients. If they find out about these projects, has there ever been any pushback, backlash? Anything like that? Or has there generally been support?

[22:27] Jesse Freidin
Yeah, it's a great question. That was my concern, of course, in the beginning because I, for 15 years, did this really high-end, very dialed-in approach to photographing dogs. And my clients, majority of them were- were wonderful art collectors and had, you know, a lot of money, and were very kind and well-to-do people. And I was- yeah, I was scared that if I shifted gears or if I told them about how I was shifting gears that they would, I don't know [laughs] feel betrayed or judge me. I think, really, I was just afraid of being judged, which is a human thing.

[23:06] Jesse Freidin
But to my surprise, as I've begun sharing things online, I think when I started this project, I was raising money, so I did one big email blast to my big client roster. And I, you know, I got a lot of really, really kind emails, and I continue to get kind messages from my old clients. And these are people that I've photographed multiple times over the past 15 years, who have become, I would certainly consider them friends, if not family. That's how they treat me, and I'm very lucky to have that. So, yes, I had one or two little inappropriate, infuriating comments from total strangers online; sure, that's just the cost of doing this kind of work. But I continue to get amazing messages from my old clients from the dog photography world and that's just- I shouldn't be surprised because those people are so kind. But it does feel surprising.

[23:55] Chris Angel Murphy
How does it feel to be an older, queer man going out and photographing the trans and nonbinary youth with their families?

[24:05] Jesse Freidin
I didn't have queer, trans, older role models when I was younger, and that's something I talk to the kids about a lot and the families. And I talk to people in my community about it a lot, you know, it's a hot topic. I want to be able to provide that in a way for these younger kids. I also do a lot of mentoring through a couple of really cool national programs that mostly they're all virtual. So when I tell the kids and parents about that, they want to take advantage of it. But it's, yeah, I think, for me, a real form of exposure therapy because I get to be around trans kids who are being affirmed from a young age, which I did not experience. And in a way, it's also exposure therapy because I get to present myself as an adult to these kids.

[24:48] Jesse Freidin
And for some reason, I thought that maybe we wouldn't understand each other because we're from different generations. And yeah, like, I don't know all the words that they might say about, like, the internet or whatever. [Both laugh] But we understand each other very intrinsically. And, yeah, it's-it's kind of like talking to my younger self. I mean it very much is. I think, you know, there's always for me, like, a much deeper message for why I'm doing the work that I'm doing that maybe isn't read on the outside. But yes, this is me talking to my younger self, in a way. And, yeah, it's very healing.

[25:22] Chris Angel Murphy
Something that you mentioned previously, it was talking about, like this concept of being out and how we don't owe people our stories, and there is no closet, etc. You know, and I'm also not trying to take that language away from people maybe where it resonates more.

[25:37] Jesse Freidin
Of course.

[25:37] Chris Angel Murphy
Right. So I don't want to take that away. However, like, I'm in alignment with you on that, that shouldn't be that straight, for example, is the default. That being said, I'm going to be 35 this year, and I don't fucking feel like an adult. And so what I mean by that is, in conversation with other folks from broadly, the LGBTQ+ community, like friends in my life. Like time is a bit wibbly wobbly because, you know, some of us haven't figured this out until later in life. Some of us knew pretty early on, but maybe like, struggled to find the language- things like that. So time is really relative. "At the age of 18. I'm going to be an adult. Nope, maybe 21? Nope. Maybe 25? Maybe 30?" No, I still don't feel like a freaking adult. I just don't. I feel like it's one of the biggest lies I was told as a kid.

[26:24] Chris Angel Murphy
And I'm curious if you do feel like an adult and what you think the difference is for you? Because a lot of my friends are like, "yeah, no, this is a lie. I still don't feel like I'm an adult; I have no idea what I'm doing. You know, I'm looking for adultier adults to see if they know what they're doing. They don't either." Like so, yeah, I guess I'm just curious how you feel about all of that and where you land.

[26:46] Jesse Freidin
Yeah, I mean, I think we are stunted. I think trans people are stunted in many ways. At least some of them, because we don't get to have a- a sort of typical, linear growing up. So yeah, for sure, I didn't think I would live past 25. So anything is a bonus, really. [laughs] But our society is raised on narratives that get repeated and repeated. And you know, a very loud narrative is like, "be straight, get married, buy a house, have kids, and have a typical job." And I don't believe in any of those things. [laughs] But I didn't feel like an adult for a very long time. Maybe I'm feeling like an adult little bit now because I've hit an age where I kind of am an adult, technically. I don't know.

[27:33] Jesse Freidin
I think I'm still learning a lot about how, yeah, how just sort of, being an adult while also like honoring a child, my own sort of childhood that was not- it didn't let me exist in ways that it could have. So yeah, it's complicated. And I think one thing that I've learned, I guess, is that I can honor sort of my own desire to redo my childhood or pieces of it at least. I've always been the same version of myself. Like when I was young, I just loved like trucks and like shooting squirt guns and running around in the mud, and like, I'm still that person. [Chris Angel laughs] And I don't have to judge that. I think maybe I used to be more judgmental. But this is the best that I could do. And I feel like I'm existing in a fairly well way and moving towards being a healed human. So I don't have to have any shame about the fact that, like, I still love trucks, and camo, and running in the mud and stuff. Yeah.

[28:27] Chris Angel Murphy
Something I really appreciate you brought up that I meant to bring up and forgot to in all of my rambling was [laughs] that another shared experience amongst myself and my friends- some of my friends are that- we also didn't think we'd make it to a certain age. And so sometimes I describe it as I feel like I'm living on borrowed time. And what is it about that, that we've felt that way at some point that it's like, "oh, we're not gonna make it." So I guess I'm curious if there's anything else you could share around that?

[29:00] Jesse Freidin
Yeah, you know, I think, I guess for some reason, again, all these things are sort of shifting for me over the past couple of years. But, [laughs] you know, I don't have an enormous group of other guys like me at this age, I have a very small group, and I'm really, really grateful for that. But I used to want to just fit in. I may still have a desire to fit in because I'm a human being. But I used to really want to fit in a lot more. I come from a family of doctors and lawyers. I'm the only artist, so I really tried hard and worked hard to have, like, a pretty cut-and-dry, successful career. And that gave me some self-worth. But I can't tie my self-worth up in my job. That's not healthy.

[29:41] Jesse Freidin
In a way, now I feel like I have- I'm just embracing the freedom of living sort of an other's life. I don't have to- I mean, I'm 41, and I'm not married. I don't have kids. I don't want those things, really, but yeah, I don't need to achieve these goals because those goals aren't for me. I can make do with what I have, I can do work that I'm inspired by, I can spend time with my friends. I can, you know, have healthy boundaries with my family. I can have healthy boundaries with other people. I just, you know, I feel like I don't owe anyone anything at this point in my life; however, that has taken 41 years to conceptualize, and I'm not letting that go.

[30:17] Jesse Freidin
There's a freedom in not having an ascribed trans or queer experience that we must really fit into. And it's also a loneliness and sadness, I think in ways. Because when we get old, there's no retirement homes for us. Our existence is constantly a battle zone. There's no safety really anywhere we turn other than turning inwards and finding your own people. So, but I come from a family of survivors, and it doesn't, it doesn't seem weird to me. I'm just embracing it.

[30:46] Chris Angel Murphy
Oh yeah, time to whip out the data. According to SAGE USA, which is a nonprofit that advocates and provides services for LGBTQ+ elders, they estimate that there are 3 million LGBTQ+ adults over the age of 50. That number is expected to grow to around 7 million by 2030. This is a group that can face financial and discrimination barriers. While there are actually LGBTQ+ retirement communities and cities, a lot of folks may not know that they even exist. The retirement communities can also have wait lists and special requirements in addition to one's LGBTQ+ status. I found a website that lists a bunch of them, but for some reason, Palm Springs, California, isn't listed as a retirement city on there, with the exception of an assisted living facility. So that's the only other one I would like to add to the list.

[31:42] Chris Angel Murphy
However, if we aren't building more retirement communities and housing now, we're never going to be able to fill that need. And there's a few reasons why this is really important. Number one, we're not great about saving money for retirement. Number two, we are less likely to have children, AKA someone to help take care of us and potentially offer more resources as we age. Number three, we are more likely to be single. There are also a number of folks who go back in the closet if they were ever out of it due to fear of discrimination.

[32:18] Chris Angel Murphy
And what the housing data from the Movement Advancement Project tells us is that 18 states and five territories in the United States have no protections for discrimination based on sexual orientation or gender identity in the state law. And you would probably not be surprised to learn that most of them are states in the South. As always, I'm going to include all of the research on the episode page.

[32:45] Chris Angel Murphy
However, I also wanted to add that the US Department of Housing and Urban Development, HUD, currently interprets the Fair Housing Act's ban on sex-based discrimination to include discrimination based on sexual orientation or gender identity. So it's possible folks in states with less or no protection can do something through that. If that's something you or someone you know is dealing with, you can use Lambda Legal's Help Desk to find out more. Again, this is information I'll have on the episode page.

[33:20] Chris Angel Murphy
If you're inspired to do more, May 16 is National Honor our LGBT Elders Day. Although you definitely shouldn't wait until then to get involved, just wanted to throw it out there as an option.

[33:33] Chris Angel Murphy
Since you're not seeing these, you know, traditional things that we try to force on people, like, you don't feel like you have to get married- that you have to, you know, have kids and all these other milestones, if you will... are there any milestones that you have set for yourself that you're looking forward to in your lifetime?

[33:51] Jesse Freidin
I feel like I'm in a new moment of life, a new era if you will. And I don't think that I have picked my head up enough to really understand what those goals are. I do love having goals for myself and working hard to achieve them. And if I fail, then I fail. It doesn't upset me as much as it might. But what used to be important to me was to prove myself for better or for worse in this career that I made for myself. And I think I did that in some ways that whether there are petty [laughs] goals or more vast goals- and I could never appreciate that until I was sort of done with that 15-year chapter. And yeah, you know, now I guess, to be honest, like, I don't want to define myself through my career, but I do really, really love what I do.

[34:37] Jesse Freidin
My goal was to spend a year working on this project and see what happens. And I've done it for more than a year, and it's going really well; it didn't fall flat, and that's nice. I have a goal of sort of filtering my work possibly into the more fine art world, which I used to be in the commission's and commercial world, which is so different. You know, I just got like my first little recognition for this work, and I'm starting to pursue showing it, and that would be a- that's a goal that I have right now. Whether anyone wants to show this in a gallery or not, you know, who knows? But I'm working towards that. A goal that I have right now is just sticking with and building my queer and trans community. If I can achieve or work towards achieving those things, then I think I'm on the right path.

[35:18] Chris Angel Murphy
Because you're a little bit older than me, this is something I think about sometimes but is there anything, in particular, you've seen in your 41 years so far that you never thought you'd see in your own lifetime?

[35:29] Jesse Freidin
I never thought about that. You know, I guess I would say like, the vast amount of connection- queer and trans connection that were offered online, I never would have [laughs] thought. You know, I didn't grow up with the internet until, you know, I was like, guess what, high school or something? But, yeah, I never thought they would be at your fingertips, like, you can have a little device in your pocket as a trans kid, and you can talk to your other trans friends or like plan a hangout in a safe space. God, that's the farthest thing from the experience I had growing up.

[35:58] Jesse Freidin
You know, I also never thought that I would see- although like, I was raised to know, inherently that fascism would return- I never thought that it would be so blatantly here and so blatantly, loud and incredibly dangerous. And that's what we're- that's the era we're in, we're never going to be able to go back, we're not gonna be able to erase what's happened. Maybe we could fight it, obviously, we're trying, but I don't know. I guess I also just never thought that I would be doing work sort of so closely attuned to my own experience as a young person. But that's where I'm at, and I'm just in acceptance.

[36:31] Chris Angel Murphy
You're going to have a long, fulfilling life, whatever that looks like to you. I'm manifesting that right now.

[36:36] Jesse Freidin
Yes, thank you.

[36:36] Chris Angel Murphy
Absolutely. What do you hope you'll see before your time here has come to a close?

[36:44] Jesse Freidin
Yeah, I really hope to see actual, enforceable protections- legal protections for queer and trans youth and adults. I hope to see that in terms of how we walk through the world and the rights that affect us as they walk the world, in terms of healthcare. Yeah, I really, really hope to see that and soon. You know, I do hope to see a world where this seems like it might not happen in my existence, but where the old guard of sort of cisgendered, white, gay, and lesbian community, lets go, in whatever way I'm- I infer [laughs] that to be. So that this vast, much larger, much more intricate, diverse, queer community can rise up. Because I think that the old guard is holding us down. I don't think I'm the only person that thinks that. It's incredibly harmful, and new voices need to get amplified, and old voices need to be turned off. I hope to see that.

[37:42] Chris Angel Murphy
Sometimes it's hard to say exactly because we can't go and change the past; however, what would seeing a project like this- the "Are You OK?" project in your youth, have done for you?

[37:56] Jesse Freidin
Oh, wow. Um, I'm never thought that either. [both laugh] It's a great question. I think that it would, it would have given me permission to know that I get to exist, and I get to take up space, and no one gets to fuck with me. I've always had that for reasons that I can't necessarily understand or explain. Other than like genetic trauma being passed down. I've always had this "get out of my way, because I will exist, whether you like it or not" kind of attitude, to the chagrin of my family. But I can imagine seeing this kind of project and seeing families not like mine publicly loving their children and saying, "if you want your kid to live, you need to help them with this medical issue." I think it would have, yeah, just let me know that I- I could make it somehow.

[38:41] Jesse Freidin
I guess the only thing that I would add is that this is an ongoing project. And my goal, you know, I am working to create a book and traditional exhibit out of this content, although that takes time. And books and exhibits can cost money, not only to produce but people to actually interact with. I want this to be very accessible. So what I'm working on currently, in the immediate term, is turning this content into an educational presentation to bring to conferences. You know, schools, libraries, healthcare spaces, so that we can use this to create change. And yeah, I want people to know that this is not just going to be printed in a book and put on a shelf.

[39:22] Chris Angel Murphy
On another podcast, you talked about how you love road trips, and I know you shared earlier that you- it's like kind of meditative for you.

[39:32] Jesse Freidin
Yeah.

[39:32] Chris Angel Murphy
I'm thinking about friends who've had to move to different states, or they're also road-tripping or something like that. For many folks within the LGBTQ+ community, it can be scary to road trip. Because there are some spaces folks won't stop in at all due to fear of, you know, for their safety. I'm wondering if you've had to put anything in place for yourself to make sure that you're safe or if that's generally not been a concern for you?

[40:01] Jesse Freidin
Yeah, you know, I remember that very first time I drove across the country, which was like, right after college. I looked a lot different. I looked very young when I was traveling with somebody else. And, you know, I was really concerned, I was concerned for my safety. I was, you know, as a concern for stopping at the gas station restaurant. And also, at the same time, surprised at how I was being seen as just a young man traveling. As much as it does feel so good to be on the road and to travel the country by car for me, I'm always concerned for my safety. And I know now before every time I go on these big trips for this project, I have a will; I make sure my will is updated and on my desk because I don't know what's going to happen. Will I get into an accident? Will someone hate crime me? I have no idea. And I accept those things radically. I will say, you know, I have a truck. [laughs] It's all black. I love it. It makes me feel very empowered. And it's- and part of the reason why it makes me feel empowered is because I know that I can sort of slip under the radar. And that is a very complicated, nuanced thing to be aware of in terms of "passing," which is such a fucked up concept, excuse my language.

[41:08] Chris Angel Murphy
Whenever I'm doing a training, and people come across terms that are new to them, especially from within the LGBTQ+ community, I always recommend PFLAG national's glossary, which can be found at pflag.org/glossary. Now what they say for passing, and I love it because they have a lot of nuance here. But in relation to gender, they say, "with gender, the act of presenting as cisgender, or gender typical, which is generally accomplished through conforming to gender roles. People may try to pass in anti-LGBTQ+ environments to ensure their safety. People who pass as straight, or cis, have the choice to either talk about their LGBTQ+ experience or to quote-unquote, "fit in" to a cis and heteronormative world. Passing is not required for LGBTQ people to deserve respect and love."

[42:05] Chris Angel Murphy
And what I'll say just, based on again, things that I see on the internet, being in conversation with folks, passing isn't always the goal for us, because a lot of the queer community is about fighting the "norms." And instead of doing what has always been done thinking about, "does that even work for me? Is that even what I want to uphold? Is there something better for me? Is there something that would honor me more?" And that's across the board. So again, I will just say that there's a lot of folks that passing is not what they want to do. And it can also be very loaded and complicated. There are some folks who would like to pass more, and for any number of reasons don't have access to that kind of privilege, either, because there are certain medical interventions that they're not eligible for or... anything. That's why it's such a complicated and charged concept within our community.

[42:06] Chris Angel Murphy
But I do carry that privilege, for better or for worse. I enjoy living within a binary gender. And that also gives me complicated privilege. I'm a white person, you know, all these things give me privilege that I'm- I work to be very aware of it hold delicately. At the same time, it allows me to travel through all these red states that literally want us to die. I can do that in a safe way. I also- [laughs] one of my friends before I started this trip, this project, you know, whenever a year and a half ago- had this great idea for me, because I was like, "I should put an American flag sticker on my truck." But I was like, not willing to do that. And she was like, "you should get a magnet." So I got an American flag magnet that goes on my truck. I don't believe in America necessarily, but I believe in being safe and doing whatever I have to do to be safe.

[43:28] Jesse Freidin
Also, when I travel, my camera case now is, like, covered in queer and trans stickers. It's a good conversation starter for kids. And sometimes people bring them to me and whatever. But other than that, when I show up in a hotel, like, I just keep a very "don't talk to me" vibe. And I just get what I need to get done, and I move on, and I don't talk to anybody. And yeah, that's how I stay safe. And again, there's no guarantee that I'll be safe.

[44:20] Chris Angel Murphy
Yeah, I'm kind of the reverse right now. I've historically been terrified of putting anything on my car because I'm poor. [laughs] I come from poverty; I have not worked my way out of it. And I don't have the money that if someone wanted to mess with my car- that I would have to deal with it, you know. And, you know, it could be keying it, it could be even, you know, bigger damage beyond that; I just can't afford it. They bust the windows, whatever that looks like. So I've only recently, within the past year, finally put a bumper sticker I made that says "say gay" and "say trans" on it, with the most current flag that we have in the community. I've put that on my car, and I also put a magnet, and the magnet felt good because, it's like you said, you can just remove it.

[45:08] Chris Angel Murphy
So if I'm driving, like, you know, like- especially because I'm in Denver these days- when you drive outside of Denver, it's very much Trump's America still. You see his name, you see his- whatever signage with his name on it- I don't feel safe.

[45:21] Jesse Freidin
Yeah.

[45:22] Chris Angel Murphy
There's only been a few times I've driven far enough outside of Denver that I start white-knuckling my steering wheel, like, "I hope I don't have problems." So far, like, I've noticed, there's been people who've been a little bit more hostile with me on the street, like, they'll ride the back of my bumper pretty closely, or they'll aggressively get around me or something. And it's been a very noticeable change since I've done that. But I'm trying to do it because I keep thinking about all of the other people who put that on their cars, and I want to be as confident as they are to do something like that. But it's still really, really uncomfortable for me.

[46:00] Jesse Freidin
Yeah, yeah, it's helped me. I used to have a bumper sticker on the back of my truck that said, "nuke the homophobes." It was like, [laughs] an illustration of a bomb and it said "nuke the homophobes," and I would have even Santa Fe people saying things to me, like, "Wow, that's aggressive." And I'd be like, "I don't care what you think, get out of my way." Which is just my own survival mechanism, and behind closed doors, I'm a very nice person. But that fell off during the winter, which I think was the universe being like, "Don't travel with that." You know, I always have like, weapons stashed in my car- I always have a pocket knife. But, yes, there's so much white-knuckling for me, God forbid I get flat, or I don't know if something happens. 99% of the travel I do for these projects are, you know, getting from like, Iowa to Wyoming. It's literally one road, and there's no cell service. So I, yes, I really, I have a lot of fear about it, and I accept that. I also have- I feel empowered that I can sort of slip under the radar and reveal the darkness within most of the country without sort of being seen. And again, it's complicated, but...

[47:09] Chris Angel Murphy
I'm not going to get into all of the resources right now during the episode, but I just wanted to offer: if you travel, and you're part of the LGBTQ+ community, and you worry about your safety, I'm going to include some really great resources that can help you to plan trips. I've talked about some of them in former episodes, like how to find LGBTQ+ owned businesses or to find safer restrooms and things like that. So again, check out the episode page for resources regarding that if you need those.

[47:45] Chris Angel Murphy
And youth you've met so far, how many have you met so far to date?

[47:49] Jesse Freidin
Yeah, about 125 kids in over half the states in the country.

[47:54] Chris Angel Murphy
Have any of them offered you anything or given you any gifts?

[47:58] Jesse Freidin
Yeah, it's a great question. Yeah, the first time that happened, I literally wanted to, like, punch somebody because I felt so uncomfortable. I-I-I am uncomfortable with people being very kind to me. I can hear a lot of dark stories and hold space for that, but when parents especially are nice, I'm just like, "I gotta go." But I was in Alabama last year for the earlier part of this project, and one of the moms worked at, like, a bakery. And I was like- saying goodbye to them- that was my last session, so I was packing up. And she like ran down the hill [laughs] and she brought me this, like, box of warm cookies. She was like, "Oh, it's for the road; you got to eat." And I was like, "What? What?!"

[49:34] Chris Angel Murphy
I'm gonna say that I see a lot of myself in your story because I'm- I'm pretty private usually and try to keep to myself, yet all of the work that I do- I'm very public and in front of people and speaking- but I hate having attention on me. [both laugh] So I feel like an enigma of a human [Jesse laughs] and the same like I can praise other people up-and-down, get so excited, hype them up, be like the best hype-person, and then someone gives me that- no [laughs]. Why- why? I can't, I can't handle it. So, I resonate with that.

[50:08] Chris Angel Murphy
You know, we've talked a little bit about privilege. There is a privilege in these youth being able to be photographed because some of them can't, right? Especially if they're under the age of 18. They're not in a place where they can sign for themselves- to get permission to do such a project. I know that you've said and acknowledge that somewhere; I think maybe it was on the project website that you talked about that. What do you wish you could say to those youth, in particular, to let them know that it's okay that they can't participate in this kind of project and that just existing in itself is enough? Like, something like that I guess. I'm not sure [laughs]. I literally just gave an answer to you [laughs]. I'm answering the question now. But yeah, I guess what would you want to say to them?

[50:53] Jesse Freidin
This project is really geared towards young people and their families or support systems that are already doing public activism- so they're already public, so they can just kind of be more public if they're comfortable- or young people who want to start to be more public. It's not for people who want to be private because that's not the nature of the project. That being said, yes, there are certainly- this is, it's like a minuscule fraction of our community that sort of fits a criteria for showing up for this project. My hope has always been from the beginning, the kids I do photograph who are able to speak out publicly, who have- if they are minors- who have parents that will show up. Or if they're over 18, just have the capacity to be public.

[51:43] Jesse Freidin
My hope is that those stories will speak for a larger audience of young, trans kids who, yeah, whose parents won't sign their paperwork- which certainly happens- I get a bunch of inquiries, and kids say, "Yeah, I can't show up because I don't have anyone to sign the paperwork." And so I very kindly just say "thank you," and that I understand. I have a page on my website for resources that I like, for some of the mentoring projects that I do, and some of the, you know, queer centers that I've worked with, to just try to make people not feel discarded. I think every story is really important. And at the same time, I think any social movement, which this is a social movement- there's always gonna be people who are like, "I accept the risks, I accept and may get harmed, I accept I may get- my reputation may get smeared, my life may become harder, but I will show up anyway." So there's always those- that group of people in a social movement, and that's who I'm working with.

[52:38] Chris Angel Murphy
Something that we're hearing a lot about right now is Monkeypox- which I believe is set to be renamed soon- and it's been wrongly advertised by media as this "gay STI" and the like. So it's not an STI and it's not specific to the LGBTQ+ community. We've seen this before, though, especially with HIV/AIDS. So to date, there are still people who think HIV is a "gay disease," even though it impacts so many people. And we've alluded to this previously, but another project you've spent time on was "When Dogs Heal." I'm curious about just anything that you'd like to share about that project, now that there's also been a little bit of time and space since you've worked on it.

[53:25] Jesse Freidin
I worked on "When Dogs Heal" for about eight years with a friend and colleague- who was also a client of mine that I photographed him and his puppy- Dr. Garoppolo, in Chicago, part of the Lurie Children's Hospital, a very well respected doctor in HIV and trans healthcare spaces. The goal of that project for me, when we first started that, was to tell a story- a humanizing story about a misunderstood, stigmatized community. And that's, that's certainly what it turned out to be. We worked very hard to pull in different sorts of experiences with HIV and AIDS, which is hard to do. Just like this project, "Are You OK?" it takes a lot of self-knowledge, privilege, empowerment, to be able to speak out, to be sort of public about an HIV diagnosis.

[54:16] Jesse Freidin
But the people who showed up for that project all around the country, we traveled to cities all over. Again, similarly, were angry enough to speak out and share their story- have these incredibly compelling stories about challenges and overcoming those challenges and, like, thriving by loving themselves and finding love. And it's really, like, that's the thread that unites all of my work. And it was a wonderful project, and it was an interesting experience because it was the first time, really, that I was photographing a community that I wasn't necessarily a part of. I would speak about being queer and- but most people that I photographed knew that I was not HIV positive, but I wanted to make sure that I could hold space for them and create trust, and it was amazing- it was an amazing project.

[55:01] Chris Angel Murphy
We focus a lot, sometimes, on gender dysphoria, right? And not diving too much into the medical aspects of transition that people may or may not want to pursue- but there can be a lot of medical gatekeeping. And a lot of it is rating people or ranking them on "how dysphoric are you?" As, again, just being this gatekeeping model. So on the flip side, I'm curious, what gives you the most gender euphoria?

[55:27] Jesse Freidin
I find gender euphoria in sort of, you know, embarrassingly "dudely" masculine things- like I love driving a truck. I love like, I- [laughs] my friends make fun of me because I like own many camo hats, you know. I really feel gender euphoria when I can be in spaces where my masculinity is acknowledged in a way that feels appropriate to me. And that doesn't mean being seen as, like, a right-wing, sexist, chauvinistic, but where I can be seen as a queer man. And that gives me real gender euphoria; where I can exist in spaces, queer, safe, queer spaces with other queer men, that gives- or queer people- like gives me gender euphoria. And, when my body is working, and I can move through space in a comfortable way, that gives me gender euphoria for sure.

[56:19] Chris Angel Murphy
What's one allyship tip you'd like for everyone listening to consider?

[56:24] Jesse Freidin
Allyship is an active process. I think allyship does not work well enough when we do armchair allyship. So my tip is that allies can be angry; allies can be angry about the mistreatment of other communities that they don't belong in necessarily. That anger and fury can be turned into action that can create change. I don't believe in pacifist allyship, I think we're past that. So I encourage allies to care about things enough to be angry and to turn that anger into action.

[56:58] Chris Angel Murphy
I lied; there is one last question I want to ask you. But I've been like, "No, Chris Angel, don't ask. Don't ask that question." You're gonna see what I mean and you could totally skip it.

[57:07] Jesse Freidin
Yeah.

[57:11] Chris Angel Murphy
Are you OK? [both laugh]

[57:18] Jesse Freidin
It's a very good question. You know, I- people have, I think some of the families, some of the parents that I've interviewed, maybe two or three times have asked me that, like, "oh, how are you doing?" Like, [laughs] like, kind loving parents. Or asked me about my own family experience, and I'm always caught off guard, which is really embarrassing to admit, but I'm like, "Why would you ask me that?" But, and then I'm like, "Oh, I'm asking you that. So let's meet in the middle."

[57:45] Jesse Freidin
But, you know, I actually I am OK. I've learned, as much as I can be, I think I'm learning to take my own discomfort and anger at the world and anger at being a mistreated, marginalized person and turn it into action. I get to defend myself and speak up for myself in whatever ways feel appropriate in the moment. And that is giving me a sense of strength. At the same time, I am deeply affected by what's happening in our world and happening with these anti-trans laws, and there are times where I am too tired to do anything because I feel very burdened by my own worry and fear for myself and others. I just try and do my best to show up every day and sort of give myself strength for taking action, which right now that is about this project. So. Ask me tomorrow, but [laughs] right now I'm OK.

[58:37] Chris Angel Murphy
Jessie, especially after listening to other interviews that you've done, I want to thank you so much for your time and vulnerability. I can't wait to see what happens with the "Are You OK?" series. I know we dived into some pretty crunchy topics, so thank you for going there with me and giving me your honest answers.

[58:58] Chris Angel Murphy
We are quickly running out of time here, so let's get into the last three self-reflection questions:

4. Would I ever consider being a mentor to youth if I don't do that currently?

5. Do I have a retirement plan if I am not already in retirement?

6. And you probably saw this coming, folks: Am I OK?

[59:31] Chris Angel Murphy
Visit AllyshipIsAVerb.com for any resources and a full transcript of the episode. And remember, sometimes allyship means getting angry and turning that anger into action.