[00:00:00] Charlie Ocean: Well, hello there. I'm Charlie Ocean and my pronouns are they/them. Welcome to Allyship is a Verb, a podcast for people practicing allyship for the LGBTQ+ community and beyond!

[00:00:25] Zoa Glows: Hey, my name is Zoa Glows and I use they/them she/her pronouns.

[00:00:29] Charlie Ocean: Of course I had to have Zoa back. I hope their updates give you permission to check in with yourself about living in alignment and adjusting as necessary. If you are new here, please, please, please, please, I'm serious, go back to the first season, listen to our first episode together, it will help set a lot of necessary context for this update.

That said, here are three self-reflection questions, stick around after the conversation for three more.

1. Do I meditate or any other similar practices? If not, do I want to start?

2. If I've been misgendered over the phone, how did that feel for me?

3. Are there any relationships where we've both grown over the course of knowing each other? Do we ever talk about those changes?

And now, the conversation.

[00:01:40] Zoa Glows: I would like to invite everybody to take a breath with us, because sometimes we just go, go, go. And, so we are going to lift our hands and breathe in through our nose, and lower our hands and push down and breathe out through our mouth.

One more time. Breathe in.

And breathe out.

And if you feel so inclined, you can give yourself a hug.

And take one more breath in . . . and out.

Cut. Print. Wrap. 1, 2, 3. (laughs)

[00:02:41] Charlie Ocean: That was great.

It's so wild to be like back here with you considering you were like early on in my podcast journey. We've talked a lot since because we've developed a really strong friendship, which doesn't even feel like the right word for what we have now, but yeah, it's been a really long time.

[00:03:02] Zoa Glows: It has. And in a funny way, that, yeah, I think we were just getting to know each other back in the first podcast. Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

[00:03:11] Charlie Ocean: A lot has shifted for both of us. Last time you said that you're Black, nonbinary, trans, and questioning. Has anything changed?

Zoa Glows: I am Black, nonbinary, trans, and pansexual. There's more things that are developing, but we're still working on it.

And, I just love that, some things have stayed the same, but I've also been able to figure out more of who I am, you know?

[00:03:39] Charlie Ocean: Absolutely. One of the first things that may be a little bit more obvious for folks, especially for those who remember you from the first episode, is that your pronouns have changed.

Historically, you were using they/she/he; you have since dropped "he". There was a whole reason as to why. So, what inspired that change?

[00:04:01] Zoa Glows: It just stopped feeling good because everybody would always just still use he pronouns, and still to this day they do, but it never feels good, and I always notice when they do, even when I tell them, "Hey, I use they/she pronouns."

I just cut it off and was like, "Nope, (laughs) this doesn't feel right." You know, like sometimes it's like, it's not even like I'm trying to change anything, but like, you just listen to what feels right and what feels good. And when it doesn't feel good, that's like how I know, (laughs) " No, this is not me. This doesn't feel good."

And the people that love me and will be there for me and want to affirm me - they'll be amazing. And then they have - and those people are still here (laughs) - and then there's some people in my life who are still not doing that great. (laughs) But I don't think it would change for a while, like I know sometimes people's pronouns change, but "they" and "she" feels really great right now.

And so I'm glad when I do experience those changes, because when I do, it's like, "Ooh, growth; ooh, yes, I know more of me, and here I am."

[00:05:00] Charlie Ocean: You've personally asked me to use they/them pronouns for you a bit more. Why has that been important to you, and what does that give you, like, asking that of some people you feel close to, for example?

[00:05:18] Zoa Glows: Even in my, like if you look on my Instagram bio, it says "they/she;" and "they" just feel so much better. It's like a lot of times people think that your pronouns are literally just telling you, "Hey, this is my gender fully." And they/them feel so great because I have stopped trying to explain to people who I am.

I know me, (laughs) and I know me better than anybody else; and so they/them feels really, really good. She/her also feels great and radical, and (laughs) I will say that sometimes people only use she/her because they're not familiar with they/them. And so, that's a little frustrating at times.

I've also learned that the way that other people refer to me, does it make me any more or less of me? Though it doesn't feel great all the time, it's also been peaceful and like, just really a journey of "Yes, so you're going to be alright in this world." (laughs) Because it can constantly feel like when people aren't getting your pronouns right, it's like little tiny bee stings of (vocalizations of struggling with jabs) you know? And what feels great is just being at peace.

Sometimes, honestly, letting it fly off and being like, "This person is not going to get it." Just doing that for me and my sanity and my peace. And then other times it is taking the time to say, "Hey, this is what I need. If you're going to be here in my life." And that feels great too. And (laughs) it's tricky.

"Everyone's different," is what I love to say. And so how you respond to how people refer to you is up to you. You can pop off if you want to pop off. I've popped off a few times, but also the popping off doesn't always feel great.

Yeah. In order for me to go home and rest my head on my pillow without thinking about this person who, isn't really that important in my life.

Charlie Ocean: Yeah.

Zoa Glows: In order for me to go home and rest my head on my pillow (laughs) without thinking about this person who, isn't really that important in my life. Yeah, it's just nice to take that moment, breathe, and be like, "Zoa, you're you. Let that person just brush off."

Also, I talk to customers every day on the phone, (laughs) and it's also really, really powerful to be like, "Hey, this person doesn't know me, and this is what they're calling me. And also I'm still me." And then it's also, "Oh my gosh, I love to tell this story and I haven't told it yet." (laughs)

There's been customers that don't know with me, on the phone, and that feels really great. They're like, "Miss - or Mr. Ritchie, Ritchie." And I'm like, (laughs) yeah, I don't even tell them. I'm just like, "Yeah." (both laugh) You'd be confused, because that actually feels pretty good for them not to know. I always say, "Hey, thank you for calling. ("bloop") my name is Zoa." And they're like, "Oh, Zoa, that's an interesting name."

It's just nice to be at peace with who I am and not have to give other people that power to make me feel a certain type of way.

[00:07:53] Charlie Ocean: You had been working as a teacher. You had left teaching to pursue performing full time for quite a while; you had shows lined up back to back. You even had a brief stint in, what, it was Northern California singing carols, I think? Is that right?

[00:08:10] Zoa Glows: Yes, that's exactly right; on the Holly Jolly Trolley. (both laugh)

[00:08:17] Charlie Ocean: What did you discover about yourself during that time pursuing this passion of performing full-time?

[00:08:25] Zoa Glows: Well, being a professional performer, it has always been a part of me and it is me. But also, getting paid to do what you love and also doing other people's shows; it doesn't always feel that great when you're a creative person and it's your art and expression.

So instead of creating stuff, you are just producing a product that somebody else made. Performing felt great for a year. It's what I quit my job of teaching to do. I was following my dreams and I'm constantly following my dreams. (laughs) After that dream, my dream was financial security. (laughs)

And so I think performing was amazing and I got to connect with so many amazing people. What I discovered about myself (laughs) is that I would say that the performing world felt so, in some ways, so much safer - safer is the term that I'll use - of a space than other job fields and career paths. It felt easier for me to express myself and say, "Hey, this is who I am."

It was great, but I want to put out my own art into the world. I want to create my own stuff, and it's been nice getting paid for the stuff that I make personally. Yeah, that's what I'll say. (both laugh)

[00:09:28] Charlie Ocean: So now you're working a nine-to-five type of job. I know that's not exactly your hours, but for the purposes of our conversation, (laughs) you're working that nine to five: que Dolly, I guess.

[00:09:40] Zoa Glows: "Working 9 to 5, what a way to make a living." (Singing in tune to Dolly Parton song) Do you hear the nails? (laughs)

[00:09:44] Charlie Ocean: Yeah, I feel like I haven't heard you do the nail thing in a while. That's amazing, (Zoa laughs) thank you for that. Going from the inconsistent life of, you know, being a performer - because you can have like really odd hours, usually they're like later at night, depending, sometimes they can be afternoons and stuff for matinees, etc. - and then going to something that's more structured. How has that adjustment been for you?

[00:10:09] Zoa Glows: Honestly, it's been tough, but I've been a trooper. (laughs) I felt like I had opened up to the world and put myself out there and said, "Hey, this is Zoa." And then I had to do it all over again in this professional setting of a training classroom.

And so there's people that aren't constantly surrounded by queer people like we are with the musical theater world, you know. And so (laughs) even just me saying, "Hey, I'm Zoa. I use they/them, she/her pronouns." Was so new to some people. And they were like, "What?" And I was like, "Yup." (laughs) Some people were great, but it took them a while.

I do want to mention, we spoke about this earlier, but I want to mention Miss V. There's somebody at my job named Miss V. She could be my auntie, she was just such a maternal figure. And it was so cool to see somebody where she is in life, show up for me, and she learned how to use they/them pronouns. In class she was constantly studying and being the best, and she was the only one that took the time to go and learn how to use they/them pronouns.

Everybody else would use she/her pronouns, and some people wouldn't even try, and that was tough. But to see other people stand up for me and correct people for me with my pronouns - it felt amazing.

I will also say that the piece that I was talking about earlier of like letting them just stay over there in their bubble and me being me, that feels amazing too.

[00:11:27] Charlie Ocean: There are like situations where you and I have to navigate that because it's not easy. Like you said, it's, you got to protect your peace and you have to decide what is going to best serve you in that moment. So that's why sometimes people may wonder why I don't correct a barista who I'm buying like an overpriced coffee from, you know, because at the end of the day, am I really going to see this person again?

If I feel like I'm going to have a meaningful connection with somebody and I'm going to see them on a regular basis, right. Like in your case, that was like specific to a training class and you're being onboarded with different people, but you probably don't interact with some of those same people, right?

Like in your case, that was like. Specific to a training class and you're being onboarded with different people, but you probably don't interact with some of those same people, right?

[00:12:05] Zoa Glows: Exactly, I don't, and some of those people that were doing pretty great in the past, now when I run into them, it reverts back to before.

Just with job settings, or with anywhere in general, when we are forced to change settings and stuff too, we're introduced to all new people, and what I wish for the job field (laughs) is that when I go in there and I say, "Hey, I'm trans and I'm nonbinary. I use they/them and she/her pronouns." It would be amazing if I don't have to do it in every single space.

Like, okay, then this is for me, this is what I would like - some people might not want everybody to know - but I would love it if, okay, (voicing leadership at a new job) we're moving Zoa over here. Let's go ahead and let everybody know, "Hey, this is Zoa. This is what Zoa needs." So I can feel safe and so I don't have to feel awkward around these introductions, because I don't even have time to introduce myself to the people; we're just in passing and we're instantly going to work. It could be facilitated in a better way for us by the jobs.

And there was one moment where they were like, "What do you want us to do?" There's restrooms at the job and they're just single stall - it's a single restroom, right. On the door, it has like a picture of what looks like a man and a woman or whatever. And so I use that bathroom only, and I would only like to use that bathroom, but the frustrating thing is it's always taken because there's only one.

And I brought that up to the company, and then they said, "Well, is there anything else that - we can't do anything about that right now, but is there anything else that we can do for you to make this feel better for you?"

And I was like, "Yeah." Just - I mentioned making the spaces feel like me not have to go in a place and be like, "Hey, this is who I am." You know? And getting them caught up to speed, because it's a lot of people. That's what I was thinking, yeah.

[00:13:44] Charlie Ocean: Folks need accommodations at work because we thrive in different environments and what may work for one person won't necessarily work for other people. And so I wish that we could be more honest in saying like, "These are some accommodations I need." And just normalizing that.

But, because our society is so ableist, a lot of folks who are disabled, as an example, there's a lot of fear in sharing their accommodations or sharing any diagnoses they may have. Like, should I go back to the 9 to 5 world for any reason, I don't know that I want to tell them I'm ADHD and autistic because I think they could just use that as a way to rule me out as a possibility for filling that role.

And I'm not saying it's exactly the same thing but I think it's similar to like the pronoun situation where yeah, I don't want to have to sit here and educate everybody. I don't want to have to have all these one-off conversations. I don't even want to be the person who's doing the training anymore because I don't get like any extra pay for it or anything like that; it's just more like emotional labor and everything that I'm providing.

But I do need people to be on top of it and so yeah - I just - if we could just - (laughs) there's a lot of systems we have to, like, throw a wrench in.

Zoa Glows: Yeah.

Charlie Ocean: But if we weren't so ableist and all that, I feel like it'd be easier to be able to ask for a request and, like, share that we need these things. But because we've also got things like ableism in play, it just, yeah, it makes it really hard to navigate these situations; and then we're made to feel like we're "asking for too much" or that "we should understand," and that, you know, "this isn't, like, 'the norm'."

And it's like, well, because we've made it that way; (laughs ) we haven't made it so that people feel safer to have these conversations. And if you're not going to follow up with people who are protesting using, like, someone's pronouns and how they want them to be used; then yeah, you're creating an environment that's just not good for anybody.

[00:15:49] Zoa Glows: Yeah, I hear ya. And it makes us feel like an inconvenience when we have to speak up and then also just like - I love the word "accommodations" that you mentioned. Like, even in the learning setting for the classroom, there was ways that I knew that I can learn better, and there's ways that other people can learn better, but a lot of times we don't voice it because this is a job where we're getting paid, and if we are "too much" or whatever, will they want us there? Will they think we're causing like a ruckus or stirring up problems?

And Even just with like pronouns and stuff, like me speak up and say, "Hey, this is what I need." Sometimes it's scary. Or even me wearing the clothes that I want to wear and wearing makeup and having long nails. It feels like what if one day they're just like, "Oh, yeah, we don't want to have you here. We don't want to see you. "Like, I don't know, it's just scary being trans and nonbinary in the workplace.

And even putting yourself out there for job opportunities, because you never know what the people are going to come back with. And hopefully good jobs come, and hopefully there's jobs that are affirming, but we just never know, (laughs) and yeah.

[00:16:49] Charlie Ocean: As your friend, I've known landing this job has been a big deal in particular, because you've done like different job fairs and things like that and it wasn't easy. You've had to make decisions around whether or not to put your pronouns on your resume because that can be a way that we get ruled out for positions as well. Like, we don't even get a chance, people see that and it's just like automatic like trash pile or discard pile, whatever you want to say.

Zoa Glows: Mm-hmm.

Charlie Ocean: I'm curious about what decisions have you had to make in this process? How have you protected not only your peace but how have you also been able to find ways to bring parts of yourself to work?

[00:17:29] Zoa Glows: A big part of me being me is my hair and my nails. Also the makeup I wear, it's like routine, even if I'm running late (laughs) - which I somehow magically make it to work on time every day - but this face takes a while. (laughs) Like, longer than it should. Or, I have so much time in the morning and I'm awake early. It's what's like, "Okay Zoa, I know you're not wearing fully what you like, but even your clothes still have a little hint of Zoa."

When I'm there, I still feel like me, but I definitely feel like a dimmed down version of me. I want to have fun at work every day, and I do, and I make people smile. But also, if I was really, truly free, I know I would be wearing something different. And I know I would be a little more free, you know? And so, I'm proud of myself for how I have shown up. And still, (laughs) even with that dimness, it is still very bright for some people. And I love it and I'm proud of myself.

When I was going for the job interviews, I did put they/them pronouns on my resume. I didn't put she/her pronouns; I guess I was scared. I was scared that by putting that, they would be like, "Wait a minute, what?"

I just needed a job. (laughs) I had to be able to have a job to survive and so I think it's okay (laughs) if you need to do that to get in the door and then be like, "Hey, this is who I am." And even if you get in the door - someone, a person who's close to me, they were like, they weren't telling me to do this - but "them" in the workplace: you don't always have to tell everybody everything. You don't always have to be open about everything.

Even if I went fully, fully incognito (laughs) and wasn't myself just to make money and just to feel like I have security, I feel like that's valid and that's okay to survive. A lot of people do it when they go out and then they're performing on stage at nighttime or something and they have to go into a workplace.

And we call out all the things that don't feel right. Not saying that it's the way the world should be, but, shoot, (laughs) we need mutti and we need to survive. So, I'm proud of myself, and I'm proud of the people that are showing up in the workforce, whether or not they do fully express themselves.

[00:19:30] Charlie Ocean: Yeah, cause something that's changed for me since you and I have spoken, is that I've been more intentional about unmasking around my ADHD and autism; and sometimes that means I come out really messy. I mean, I was telling you, right before you and I started chatting today, I had come right out of a session with an organization, and it got messy. (laughs)

Like, I don't know, I'll like stutter sometimes, or say a word, like I'm thinking of it now and I'm like already stumbling through the word, just thinking about it, but like I was trying to say a particular word and I kept saying it wrong and I finally got to like the word I needed to say. (laughs)

And I've worried, in some ways, people would think less of me for that - and I hope that's not the case, because I actually think it's really great that I can make those mistakes, but there's still value. Just because I'm like, stumbling on my words and I'm still waking up a bit, doesn't mean that I don't still have value, doesn't mean I don't know what I'm talking about, right, like we all have those moments where we're not always coming across how we'd like, or maybe as strongly as we'd like, though -

Yeah, so I know that when I've seen that in others, When they've allowed that vulnerability, the messiness, it's not this like perfect polish thing, it just feels a lot better. And so that's what I've been trying to adopt a lot more and yeah, it feels good.

Now I may read the (laughs) I may read the survey results later and hear feedback otherwise that they didn't appreciate it. But then, you know, then my message and all of that is not for them. But yeah, I'm wondering if that like resonates at all for you.

[00:21:12] Zoa Glows: It does. I honestly know that I'm a gift (laughs) to this world and to the people that I encounter; they do get to feel my glow. I have a new supervisor, and she's really learned how to - she asked me what kind of coaching I need, and that's been amazing. I know that I can show up and I can just be me. I can be goofy. (laughs) I don't have to be perfect all the time, and I can have these conversations with the people that I'm talking to on the phone and not be perfect, and that's okay.

Yeah, it's, (laughs) it's hard when you like, I always feel like people are seeing me and judging me, and sometimes I don't want to be seen. But I know, for the most part, (laughs) and even when I get like the shady stuff from people, I know it's just me glowing, you know. And whatever way that means. I can talk the way that I want to talk. I can be free.

And the best parts about us are not always pretty, especially when we have both sides of us. I mean, I'm pretty freakin' pretty obviously, (Charlie laughs) but - and that type of thing that I just said right there is the type of thing that people would constantly be like "Zoa, don't talk about yourself that way" or "don't have that kind of confidence or that kind of, like, self love." You know? (laughs)

You know how long it takes people to get to a place where they can say that? Like, because the world is constantly telling you not to? Oh my goodness, if I am showing up at all, I am proud of myself because- for everybody, it's, it's hard and so many people don't, don't get to glow and they're just constantly being small.

And that small is beautiful too, (laughs) because it's hard to show up in the world, but I want to glow and shine.

[00:22:47] Charlie Ocean: When you and I are interacting with the public, like those phone calls that you're taking during the day, they're likely making snap judgments about us, including assuming pronouns and labels, and this amplifies again - when we're in a role for a job that requires us to interact with the general public daily.

I'm wondering about like how, I mean, cause you've mentioned that you don't let what people are saying like, impact you in a negative way as much as possible, and you realize it's more about them and less about you and all of that but, is there anything else that's been especially helpful, especially over the phone? Interacting with people who don't know you, as well?

[00:23:32] Zoa Glows: Actually, over the phone, it feels fine. In person, when they know me, know me. And they see me, not even just seeing me. But it's the constant, like, did you ever see that meme with the person that's doing the slow blink, and it's like, I don't know how to explain it, but it's just like, "Did this person really just say this to me?"

Charlie Ocean: Mm-hmm.

Zoa Glows: Type slow-blink person with blonde hair in the meme. (laughs) And that's how I feel every time someone does it in person, or somebody just says something that doesn't feel great. And that's my way of getting, (laughs) getting past it, is just having a little judgy moment of, "Did you just really? To me?

And sometimes they notice, and I've seen people correct themselves, like, "Oh, I mean, what were your pronouns?" That kind of stuff, like with people I'm just meeting. But over the phone, I'll be honest, because they don't know me, and because they can't see me, and not even just about the visual of me, but I'm still Zoa. I'm giving them the Zoa. (laughs)

But also I'm not, fazed by it at all. I can connect with people over the phone and it's nice. It's kind of like an escape from what I experience on a daily basis, walking out into the world as trans and nonbinary. It's not taking it away when I do go into that customer space of, "Hey, I'm talking to a person and they I don't really know how to be there for me."

It just feels free and peaceful to just be and let it be, you know?

[00:24:51] Charlie Ocean: Yeah, I don't always have a poker face - and I'm not saying everyone should have to have one - but I don't always have a poker face, so. And I feel like that has been more and more true as I get older. (laughs)

And so, when I was that barista slinging those overpriced coffees to people, I remember this couple came in and they were fighting over my gender right in front of me. And I'm just like, "I have the answer, but I don't think y'all are really interested in that. (both laugh) You're just like doubling down on who's right." Like, "Clearly that's a woman!" Or, "Clearly that's a man." and I'm like -

Zoa Glows: Woah.

Charlie Ocean: Both of y'all are wrong. Now what?" You know, but I didn't say that because I didn't have that kind of confidence and all of that when I was of that age. I was in my early 20s and awkwardly stumbling through things, but like you said, I - there are times that I can just like really let it slide and not let it bother me. It still hurts.

Zoa Glows: Mm-hmm.

Charlie Ocean: It still hurts. I still feel it. I hear it every time. And I hear it when someone's hesitating, right. There's like different ways it'll come through. But, yeah, there's just a lot of times that - in certain situations, it's easier to let go and not worry about it.

Like, for example, I was - yesterday, I went to an organization I'm going to be working with, and we had an in-person meeting to help build that rapport. So I introduced myself, was like, "Here's what we're talking about over the next couple of months. You know, this is what it might look like, etc." And, you know, "We'll adjust and all that is necessary."

And the person who introduced me first didn't know me and didn't know my pronouns. And I don't know if that had been communicated to this person before we met, but, that said, "use he/him pronouns," for me, and was like, "We're gonna hear from Charlie today."

And I, I just, I looked at the one person who like knew my pronouns for sure and like was trying not to like, I don't know, give her a face. Like, you know, that moment, like when you're at like something and something happens. And that like, slow blink you're talking about, but you try to give it to your friend.

Zoa Glows: Mm-hmm.

Charlie Ocean: Because it's that knowing look of like, "Oh, no, they did not just do that." (laughs) Like, "Are you going to do something about this?" kind of thing.

Zoa Glows: Yeah.

Charlie Ocean: But I tried not to do that. But I just, you know, without like making that person feel badly or anything, when I ended up introducing myself like, I just shared my pronouns and all of that, and like, it's fine. It doesn't have to be this big thing. And they didn't like, apologize or anything after, and I don't think I needed that, but I hope they heard me, so like, moving forward, they don't default to he/him again.

And I, I kind of don't blame them for doing that, because that's like, what we're taught to do. We're taught to like, look for these clues in gender expression, and it's to like, you know, figure out what pronouns and stuff to use for someone, but it - yeah, it never feels great, and there's no reason I needed to like, pop off, like you say, (laughs) on them or anything, cause the person just didn't know, and I was able to like, share it with everyone, like, almost immediately after that, so.

Zoa Glows: Yeah.

Charlie Ocean: Yeah, it's like, sometimes hard to shake those off.

[00:27:37] Zoa Glows: Yeah, it is, and I love what you're saying, because I just always picture, like, younger people, and it's, or anybody just popping off, because somebody didn't get it right, you know. And it's possible too, and it's valid too, but I just remember doing it, and it never felt great for me (laughs) and it felt even more draining.

And so, I think it's really cool, and also a gift to say to people, "Hey, you don't have to take what they're doing to you, or saying and not getting right. You don't have to take that on and carry that burden. It can be for them, and them figuring it out too."

Like the, (laughs) you know, like when people are like, "Uh, he. . . Uh, she . . .Uh, um." Like the little stumbling and I'm just doing the slow blink or smiling. (both laugh)

It's really cool to just be and let it be. And I always picture like us all like congregating somewhere - I picture like the Sims with the green thing over the head, lets you know, like pronouns and what feels good, but also maybe actually lets you know the essence of the person, which we don't get from people's pronouns or who they are.

I feel like if we were in a different, brought up in a different world at a different time, like in a, if it was all of us just raised in a space, people who explore their gender identity or people who use different pronouns, it would be so interesting to see what the vibes will be like. (laughs) And then when people don't know how to be there for us - and I'm not saying that we're perfect because sometimes we mess up too because we were also raised in this society. It'll be interesting to see and how much, hopefully, less (laughs) less harm is caused from being in a space that's for us, you know.

[00:29:15] Charlie Ocean: Yeah, you're describing this need for a tool to help us more easily get a better sense of somebody so that we can know how to best honor them and interact with them, which is going to be an ongoing process that will continue to shift and change.

And what it also reminds me of is - I had just recently made a reel on Instagram about how people just keep labeling me and throwing labels on me without checking in with me to make sure it really honors me. So I didn't mention this part in the reel, but, you know, that first term was "tomboy," and it was harmless, and I sort of, like, latched onto it, because there was something about it that was appealing to me, and I'm still trying to figure out my relationship to it.

So I talked about how, yeah, so it started with [00:30:00] "tomboy," and then when people from the community were like forcing me into the box of like "butch lesbian", or like "stone butch" in some cases, like, I didn't like that either, because it didn't resonate, but that's what language was that people kept giving me and placing on me.

And then even worse, they kept measuring me up to like how much I lived up to that or not. I'm like, "You put this label on me. I didn't ask for this. I'm not a - " like, so, I adopted it by force, it felt, and so that's how I'd call myself, but yeah, it was never enough for people, or whatever.

Then, now, present day, it's manifested into people calling me transmasculine, or saying that I'm masculine and stuff, and I'm like, "I'm not though." (laughs) They're like, "But your beard?" I'm like, "Stop. That's not - you're not getting me." If all you see is my beard, and that's how you're like, molding your thoughts and like around me as a human, like this isn't gonna work out. I need you to see beyond that. It is just like a stim toy as far as I'm concerned. Number one, I feel like it looks good on me. And number [00:31:00] two, it's just a stim. I just like playing with it and how it looks.

And, you know, some folks - I mean, my, my reels don't always go blip like yours do. (both laugh) I'm just using your language. So I wasn't prepared for like over 6, 000 views or wherever it's at now and all of the likes and stuff, but it's really resonated with people because I think It just highlighted that we don't want to be put in a box and that rather we'd like to be able to describe our own experiences in the language that we feel best reflects that right now.

And so someone in particular had commented, and I'm so grateful that they had, that something to the effect of, you know, we're 4D or 5D people and people are only seeing us in 2 or 3D. So like that's what this is reinforcing for me is like, that's why you're talking about like that Sims diamond or whatever it is that like would float above us.

It's just that, yeah, we have a limited understanding of some of the language and [00:32:00] nuance with our identities because like there are macro and micro labels we use to describe our experiences. More often than not, depending on my like relationship to someone, I will talk about some of the macro labels, but I won't always get into the nitty gritty of like, well, yeah, "I'm ace in a few different ways too, and this and that and the other."

And like, you had so beautifully given us a lot of examples of galaxies and marble and stuff like that, and I really latched on to that. So I'd come across a tool about explaining your gender in terms of like a gender galaxy and like a sexuality galaxy. And then I'd made my own, which I'd also thrown up on my Instagram, and now I need to do like the revised version.

But it just felt like a better, more freeing way to put on something what is most important to me. So I put, like, that I'm agender on there, which is something I don't usually share with folks, and that my autism is, like, heavily interlocked with that. Like, there's a big intersection there in terms of, like, again, like, my beard and [00:33:00] stuff. It's not me trying to be masculine, it's more of, like, a sensory thing.

Or I put, like, my values on there. I have, like, my they/them pronouns orbiting really close to me as Charlie in the center because yeah, those feel really important to me. But the other stuff feels a little bit less so. It's like more of a way to like, yeah, okay, I'm queer in a bunch of different ways, but like, I just don't always want to have to get into it with people and like help them, I don't know, like evolve like Pokemon or something. (laughs)

I know that's part of what I sign up to do, but it's different when I'm being paid for it-

Zoa Glows: Yes.

Charlie Ocean: Versus like someone is trying to connect with me - if it's coming from a place of curiosity and stuff and I have the energy and all for it, yes, sure, let's have that conversation. But yeah, I'm finding it's just hard sometimes when people don't have some of the same tools as me. To like have those conversations.

[00:33:42] Zoa Glows: Mm-hmm, I can relate. I love that picture that you painted with the galaxy. And I do just feel like people always assume and they try to make us very simple. Like, they try to just be like, "Oh, you're gay or you're straight. Or if you're trans, this means that it's this, like it's literally just this or that."

[00:34:00] And that's not it for everybody, literally everybody in the world is not as simple (laughs) as people try to make them out to be, I feel like. Maybe some people feel okay with, like, us just saying this for them, but it's so much more beautiful and deeper to really dive into who you are and be able to say it to the world.

And it's funny how only some of us, (laughs) it seems like only some of us do fully, like, try to get deeper and feel like "Hey, this is me -" and say it to the world. I feel like sometimes people are still just looking at me and saying, "Hey, (laugsh) you're just a gay man that has long hair and nails." And, and that is like the furthest from me at all and, it's hard when people can't see that.

I have found so much freedom in actually being me, and people can't see it. But then it's also like, you know what, I am me, and to everybody that is struggling with that, I feel like it's beautiful to, to sit in that and be like, (laughs) "Ha! Look what I've done in a world that told me this is who I am, [00:35:00] and then I've actually found me." You know?

[00:35:02] Charlie Ocean: Because I can anticipate someone seeing you, maybe even reading you as like, a trans femme, or -

Zoa Glows: Mm-hmm.

Charlie Ocean: Or something like that.

Zoa Glows: Yeah.

Charlie Ocean: And they're getting closer to seeing you, but it's not the full picture, but I could see themselves like patting themselves on the back, like, "Look at me, (Zoa laughs) like I talked to this person, I'm so smart and evolved." Like, "Okay, well, that's not the point of this."

We really need to mirror the language that people are using to describe themselves.

Zoa Glows: Yeah.

Charlie Ocean: And not put them in any sort of box or yeah - and then when we are corrected, just take it as gracefully as possible, because we're not always just gonna get people, especially by just looking at them and interacting with them for like five seconds.

[00:35:43] Zoa Glows: Definitely. I will say though, (laughs) there's been a select few times where it felt like people could see me and get me like instantly. And those have been magical moments.

Like with my friend who I'm always acting a fool with online (laughs) , you know, I'm talking about. His house mother, like when she met me it was amazing. She was like, "Oh my goodness, you are my new nonbinary child." And like also "daughter" felt great when she said it too, and it just -

For some people, it's like, "Okay, you see me, you don't have to put on all these labels on me, and you let -" (claps hands together) It just feels free and like, wow. And also when people are confused, (laughs) that feels great sometimes too.

[00:36:20] Charlie Ocean: Yeah.

Zoa Glows: Yeah, it does. (laughs)

Charlie Ocean: Well, yeah, you're being seen in a way that they can't like quite articulate, but you can tell that they're kind of getting you because.

Zoa Glows: Yeah.

Charlie Ocean: The wheels are spinning. (laughs) They may not have the language. (both laugh) Yeah, "bleep-bloop." (imitating malfunctioning robot) Yeah. Yeah.

[00:36:38] Zoa Glows: We short-circuit people and I like it. (laughs)

[00:36:41] Charlie Ocean: Yeah. Brain glitching. My brain glitches all the time. (both laugh) for better or worse. Thank you, Neurodivergence. I appreciate it; I actually do. Sometimes it is really fun.

Yeah. And that's the other thing is like, okay, you're nonbinary and - amongst all these other identities - and so, yeah. I'm sure - and this may have happened also in the episode with MJ that just came out as well - MJ was describing how they sometimes use gendered terms to describe themselves and their experience because it also helps to highlight the fact that they're queer because they want to be seen as queer in certain circumstances.

But like, they were talking about how they are their partner's wife, or they are their wife's wife, and not the partner, intentionally, but like, they're not their parents daughter. And I don't know that everyone can fully comprehend the difference between those and why we may choose to use, like you said, "daughter" felt affirming in the way with that particular house mother. It's just sometimes it's like connection based.

[00:37:38] Zoa Glows: Yeah, for sure. And also it feels really great when people say Happy Mother's Day to me, (laughs) even if it's for my pets, or even if it's for, like, children that I have taken on in the world of us just existing in this world, that feels amazing too.

And so I think people don't always have to understand; they really don't. (laughs) They just, like - we're all going to be us, and I don't know. It's really annoying, actually, when people try to understand me. (laughs) They're like, "Oh, so how does this work? And how do you mean?" I'm like, "Can you go away and leave me alone?" And just, you can look at me if you want, but also, (laughs) I'm just trying to be here.

Like, somebody came up into my DMs and said all this stuff about their opinions and religion and all this stuff and gender. And I'm like, "Yeah, I don't want to talk to you. (laughs) Go away, and I'm gonna still be here. And I don't have time."

I know what we put out can be seen as educational and stuff, but to be honest, it just flows out of me when I post something online. Like you said, (laughs) if I'm not getting paid for it, sometimes I just want to exist.

[00:38:39] Charlie Ocean: And I think there are folks who feel entitled or that they have a right to our stories and how we've landed on certain things. And it's like, I don't know, it just makes me think of Steven Universe and "I'm an experiencer," whatever, you know, just like get to know me in other ways. We don't need to go on this, like, I don't know, archaeological dig or something. It doesn't really have to be that serious.

And it's not like I don't have times where I like going into that with people. It just feels a lot better with other people who are at some of my same intersections.

[00:39:15] Zoa Glows: For sure, I agree, and it's so nice. Recently, I've been connecting with a lot of people who feel great. And I believe I told you that you're one of the first people to start feeling great for me, since I've been being more of me, (laughs) and the connections that I've been making. It's just nice when I know I wouldn't have said this to somebody else, but that person can say things that they want to say with me, and it's just there, and it's like, "Yes."

But I would never say it to somebody else (laughs) because they haven't opened up that part to where I feel safe to talk to them about the procedures that I want or talk to them about whether or not I want to take hormones or anything like that. And the other people that try to pry for it, (laughs) it feels awful talking to it about it.

Like, "Have you changed your name legally?" And all this kind of stuff. And I'm just like, "I don't know you. And you are not in my same sphere of me existing. So please just stay in your bubble and let me connect with the people that feel great."

[00:40:09] Charlie Ocean: There's been times you've been lucky, as far as, and this shouldn't be this way, I shouldn't have to phrase it this way, but it does feel that way - there's been times that you've released reels out into the world and you'll end up on like the not as great side of Instagram and then like hate comments start coming and everything. (sighs)

When that's happening, because everyone wants something different, how do you wish people would show up on your page? I know that lately you've been really great about asking for what you need and saying, "Can you show this video more love?" Or whatever, but like, yeah, how would you like people to show up for you when things like that are happening on your page?

[00:40:51] Zoa Glows: Oh my goodness, there's been times where those hate comments, (laughs) like they were all coming from Germany one time. You were amazing and you always have been. Like, I remember one time you shared it and you were like, "Hey, please go show Zoa some love. They're getting a lot of hate on this video." And so, I love drowning out the comments, flooding the comments with, like, hearts, or, like, just positive - it doesn't always have to be positive.

But to be honest, I don't like when people go at those people who are throwing, like, the shade and the hate and, like, the awful stuff, but I do like it when the message of, "Hey, Zoa, thank you for being visible and existing," or "I needed to see that type thing," is louder than someone saying that, "You're a man and you-" whatever they say. Like it, it's, (laughs) it's been pretty awful sometimes and just reading it is like a jolt of somebody like - would they say this to me in person? And, would they hurt me in person? To be honest, I think most of the time it's a "no," but it's still scary.

And that just makes me think like, from what I get on social media, sometimes it's why I don't go on TikTok as much because it's just constantly funneled out to the wrong people and I don't know. It also feels like sometimes when I share online or social media that I do have a message, but because I'm getting hate comments, it's not spread as far and wide, because when we report it, it just feels like Instagram's like, or TikTok's like, "Oh, let's stop this before it goes any further with people saying awful things." I don't know, it hurts.

And I want to put myself out there because I feel like I do need to be seen, for the younger me who needs to be seen, but also people who need to see me. But it hurts that people say stuff about me when they don't know me, like bad stuff about me, because the truth is I would never say something about them.

I know how bad it feels to hurt (laughs) and be targeted online. I don't even like the word "targeted." It just hurts. And it's nice to, (laugh) I don't know, I'm just kind of emotional. Like, I like social media, I like putting myself out there, but it's nice to take a step back and also to just be like, "No, fuck this. I'm going to just live for real."

But also, I will say that this social media has got me my best connections, like, I know you, I know other friends that I wouldn't have met before that helped me feel like I'm not alone, you know?

[00:43:13] Charlie Ocean: It can come with a lot of good. It's also just like learning when to not doomscroll and to not look at the comments. And why it felt important to ask you that question too is because I recently came across a hate account on Instagram.

Zoa Glows: Mm-hmm.

Charlie Ocean: I noticed a lot of people I know on there, either literally friends, or just people I follow, and that you likely follow as well. And I was horrified. I didn't, like, go and watch the videos to see what all hot garbage I knew that they were gonna be spewing or anything like that. I barely went into the comments, (laughs) because there were like hundreds of comments and they were not good, like the first couple I saw. So I didn't do that to myself. I know some people can't like help but, because it comes from a place of wanting to be I guess "educated" and not realizing that like it's causing more damage than good. Like, we know that people can be nasty, I don't think we need to see the specifics of it.

So I started reporting the account, I started reporting the videos, but because I saw some people I knew on there, I had to like take a moment and think critically and ask myself, okay, "If someone If someone found this about me - which, it's only a matter of time, right - but if someone found this about me online, how would I want them to approach me about this?"

And I chose love, and so I decided that I couldn't act like I hadn't seen it, so I reached out to two people in particular, and I said, "Hey, I want to let you know that I came across something, one of your videos is in it, I want to give you the freedom of choice, like if you want to see this or not - and what you want to do about it." And I let them know, like, I would be reporting the account and the video and everything, but like, I wanted to give them the freedom of choice of how they wanted to protect their peace moving forward.

In both instances, they wanted it to be shared, but they had told me that - especially one in particular - told me, like, other people didn't offer that same kindness. They just, like, sent it to them, or whatever. But, like, we have to think about this: like, how is this gonna impact somebody? It's like, we think we're doing someone like a solid or something in that, but, like, really think about it for a minute. Like, how would you want someone, who cares about you, to tell you something that can be really charged and hurtful and, you know?

So, that felt like the move, but I just, like you said, I don't know that people are always thinking that way, and then sometimes they feel that interacting with those people, and then like using some of the same tools and tactics will help and things, and it's like, it doesn't though, because at the end of the day, we're not making any progress.

Zoa Glows: Yeah.

Charlie Ocean: So. It's, it's tricky and challenging and I don't want to always act like I have the answers or something because I don't, but I just know that like - yeah, if people are interacting on my page and that's what I feel like. It just feels really important, the same way that we might every now and then reintroduce ourselves on social media and be like, "Hey, by the way, I'm Charlie Ocean, my pronouns are they/them, this is who I am, da da da. You know, there's been a lot of new followers, so -" kind of thing.

I feel like I want to start adding to that, like, this is how I hope people will show up on my page. Because it is my page, yes, it's also on the internet, (laughs) and you're opening yourself to certain things. But it's my page, so yeah, like, I am gonna block people without warning if I feel like that's gonna protect my peace, or I am gonna delete certain comments. Like, for myself, and this is why everyone, I feel like, needs to take the time to sit with themselves and think about what works best for them, but for me, that means not letting those comments continue to exist on my page.

Like, I'm gonna delete them because I'm thinking about, like, younger Christina, or when I was Riley, (laughs) or Chris Angel, or any of the other, like, versions of myself. Like, I'm also protecting them and loving them too, and yeah, I think not only does it harm me, but it's also gonna harm people coming to my page. I don't need them to see all of that mess, so.

But again, it's just, it's such a personal, individualized thing that I have to communicate, this is like, the vibe I want for my page and how I would like for people to show up and then people can leave if they don't think they can honor that, but yeah, everyone has to decide for themselves, like, what those lines and boundaries are.

So there's like a person that you and I both follow that will share photos of themselves in like bikinis and stuff, or whatever you want to call it. But what I've loved that they've done is, and they're probably listening so hi, (laughs) I love what they've done, yeah, is that every time they do that, and it's a very vulnerable thing, they always like, let it be known what their boundaries are, for the most part.

They almost always say, like, "I'm only looking for, like, comments and, like, uplifting ones from, like, folks also in the LGBTQ+ community and allies, you can just, like, share hearts or something." Or whatever, you know? Because, like, sometimes when we're seeking feedback, we really only want it from certain people of, like, certain experiences, etc., because, like, they're more likely to get it and honor us in a way that we feel more seen.

You know, the tenderness of not having the space to hold for people who may not get it exactly right. So, I've loved that. It's made me really happy, and then I show up for them, you know, any time I can in that way, and yeah, I think it's great, because we're normalizing the accommodations, the boundaries, whatever you want to bucket it as, label it as, whatever, because, you know.

[00:48:18] Zoa Glows: Asking for what you need. You taught me that, like, back, back when I first met you, and I started sharing some stories, what I needed from people or what I - what felt good. And yeah, for me, (laughs) I did want to share about one comment.

Charlie Ocean: Yeah.

Zoa Glows: The person specifically said," Oh my gosh, nothing's real about you. Not even your nails." And these are real nails. (laughs) And so it was just laughable to me too. And people don't that they're trying to invalidate my existence by saying that I'm not real or whatever, but like, I'm right here and these are real. (laughs) And it's funny how they think that their words are going to somehow, (laughs) I don't, I don't know what they think they're going to do, but, I'm proud of us. (laughs) And yeah, even if they weren't not real, who cares? (laughs) You know, it's me.

[00:49:10] Charlie Ocean: You and I had talked about some discoveries you've been making about yourself since we last spoke. And you and I both know Maze. Maze was on semi-recently. Maze and I were talking about like T4T, or trans4trans, relationships and how they hit differently.

You and I also talked a little bit about like, polyamory. Your language is like super cute about it too, because you, what did you call it? I'm trying to find it in my - oh, poly exploratory? Polyam exploratory?

[00:49:39] Zoa Glows: Yeah, like I was making up my own terms. (laughs)

Charlie Ocean: Yeah.

Zoa Glows: Because I don't know what to call me right now.

Kinda, I'm like witnessing amazing people that are, who practice polyamory and it's amazing and I love it. And I'm like, whoa, mind blown because we don't just have to only be with one person and it's beautiful to see love in this way.

What I am loving (laughs) is connecting with these people and just knowing that maybe what I thought I had to have for love because of what we were told, doesn't have to be that way, especially when I'm finding so much else about myself out.

It's like, wait a minute, (laughs) when I'm connecting with people, whether it's for a relationship or for romantic, like, you know, it can be in whatever way that I want, and I can make the rules and I can decide, "Hey, this is what feels good." And it's just been nice to connect with people.

I have one person that's a friend, and that feels great, and then another person that's been like kind of a romantic interest right now, (laughs) and there is another person I will say was a big part of the awakening before, before I met this last person. And you know it was like, "Wait a minute, this feels really good."

I'll say, Maze, I love you, and I loved your podcast, and listening to it with Charlie felt amazing because (laughs) when we connect and we can show love to each other and T4T relationships, it just feels so good. It's like, it's another wall that's broken down, and it's also just, I feel safer.

One, sexually, yes, and then also two, just sharing things that I don't know, I've had a really bad experience recently where someone was like, "if you ever do this, to your body. I - uh-uh." And (laughs) that was somebody that I thought I was falling for, somebody that I thought I was loving.

And so, yeah, it's just been nice to be free and just be like, hey, I don't just have to be like these Hallmark movies - that I would love to watch - where it's just a couple that is falling in love and that's it. And they're with each other forever. Blah, blah, blah.

When I had a sexual experience with somebody recently, and even just the cuddling, and even the conversations, it felt so much safer; us both being trans. It just, it feels freer and it feels safer and it feels better. Just figuring it out there. That's why I say "poly exploratory" because I'm still figuring me out and it feels good to be open and free to finding me more.

[00:52:04] Charlie Ocean: I'd say that I'm just like really failing with words lately as far as like relationships go of all kinds because there's people like you, my friend Ed, my friend, Dulce, there's like different people in my life that I feel very close to, and I don't want to say that "friend" can't be intimate, or that friendships can't be intimate, but there are times it feels like there isn't a word strong enough to describe the bond I have with the people I care about.

Like calling them, you know, I don't want to say, like, my "best friend," because we're getting closer, but it still doesn't feel right. But yeah, when I'm talking about, like, people I, like, love and care for so much, like, another person - just gonna name drop slowly everyone I love, (both laugh) you know, like, Tonya, like, I just, I wish I had better language that felt like it encapsulated our intimacy with each other.

Zoa Glows: Yeah.

Charlie Ocean: In terms of, like, what we share with each other, how we hang out, how comfortable we are with each other, like, it just feels like, sometimes friend or best friend or closer, whatever isn't enough.

[00:53:08] Zoa Glows: Yeah. I relate to that and I hear what you're saying. I remember I said "friendsamily" for us, (laughs) but -

Charlie Ocean: Yes!

Zoa Glows: That still sounds cheesy and not as like lovey dovey, but it's kind of cute anyways, but I know what you mean. And then also what you were saying too, about just what we need in relationships. Like I look back and I'm like, "What if I actually said what I needed while I was in that relationship and asked her what I needed?" and that's why polyamory seems so beautiful.

In a way, it's because hopefully there's more open communication and freedom, but also, I just love connecting with people, and so when I'm limited to who I can connect to, that's kind of scary sometimes. It's like, "Wait a minute, I can only connect with you and feel the same way with you?"

Like, I have a friend and people always think we're in a relationship because of how we act around each other; and we're not. And we've always acted that way, even when I wasn't in a relationship. And it's us, and it's a beautiful connection, you know?

[00:54:00] Charlie Ocean: And that's, it comes back to the full circle of like, people needing to put us in a box.

Zoa Glows: Mm-hmm.

Charlie Ocean: Ourselves, our relationships. Like, again, it feels important to find a word, a term, a phrase, or something to help describe my relationships in like, a better nutshell. To even like, start to like, you know, scratch beneath the surface there a little bit more, but. I don't want people to try to, like, put a box up for, like, you and I, or anything like that.

There's this, like, cute thing that someone said online somewhere, that when you're trying to put people in a box, it's kind of like when you try to put a cat in a box. They're not always happy about that. (Zoa laughs) They have to want to be in that box. And I feel like the same thing applies for us. Like, our labels, macro, micro, our relationship, like, all of it.

We have to want to go in that box, so don't put us in that box. (laughs)

[00:54:49] Zoa Glows: I don't want to be in that box, Charlie. I don't like that box. (laughs) And I've been hiding that box my whole life. Anytime somebody tells me, one, tells me what to do or tells me, like, who I am, I'm like, [00:55:00] "Wait a minute, I know me and I'm learning me, but you don't get to tell me that and you don't get to tell me what to do."

And also, I'm gonna do me either way, so get back, and I am an angry cat, I am gonna break out this box and rip it up, tear it up, and I'm also gonna shit on it, too. Yes.

[00:55:16] Charlie Ocean: Oh, that got intense. (both laugh) It was funny too, cause like, I had that song like, "Get back, get back, you don't know me like that -" and I can't even remember where that comes from.

Zoa Glows: I remember that.

Charlie Ocean: Is that maybe a movie even? Do you know what I'm talking about?

Zoa Glows: Is it Bad Boys? (laughs) I don't know.

[00:55:30] Zoa Glows: I don't know.

[00:55:31] Charlie Ocean: Charlie Ocean: Oh, is that it?

Zoa Glows: I don't think so.

Charlie Ocean: Maybe.

[00:55:33] Zoa Glows: Don't quote us, y'all. If you know, write us. (both laugh)

[00:55:37] Charlie Ocean: Yeah, I, ah, I don't know. This is how I work, because I think in song lyrics and stuff, or like movie quotes or TV quotes.

Zoa Glows: Maybe it was Ludacris, I don't know.

Charlie Ocean: Yeah! Yes, Luda. Thank you.

Zoa Glows: Luda!

Charlie Ocean: Thank you. (both laugh) Yes.

Zoa, I love you. Thank you for doing life with me in our own weird, unique, beautiful, glittery, unicorn, galaxy way. It was such an honor to have you back.

Well folks, thanks for your patience with some of the tech blips throughout the episode. I don't know what was going on, but I tried to smooth it out as much as possible.

Speaking of big updates, just kinda casually dropped that I'm going by Charlie. So I'm going by Charlie Ocean now, so instead of being called Chris Angel, I'm asking folks to call me Charlie.

That's, yeah, my, my new full name. I am in the process of still switching everything everywhere, so it may be confusing for a bit. If you'd like to read more about why and how I got here, I wrote a long Substack post about it, which is a new account I just started up. I'm just feeling really constrained by algorithms and character limits and all of that. I can't do it, like, long-form is the best form for me and it allows me to complete my thoughts in a way that feels really good.

So if you want to know more about my personal journey and also some things I'm thinking about in terms of my career as someone who's an LGBTQ+ speaker, trainer, consultant, podcaster, and all these other things, (laughs) that's where that kind of content is going to go.

And I'm still going to be posting on LinkedIn and Instagram and likely a lot of that content is going to come from my Substack, because I think that's just starting to feel like the best place for me.

I also want to send a massive thank you to everyone who helped to support the Indiegogo campaign. Your support to help keep Allyship as a Verb going means the world to me. This is one of my favorite projects I've ever worked on, so thank you, thank you, thank you. I wish I could reach out and fist bump, high five, or hug, or (laughs) whatever would feel best to y'all. Like, each and every one of you, because it really does mean that much to me. So, thank you.

And now, we're going to get to the final three self-reflection questions.

4. If I work or go to school, what's an accommodation I wish I could have?
5. Who was the last person to uplift me? How did that feel?
6. What do I do to protect my own peace?

Visit AllyshipIsAVerb.Com for any resources and a full transcript of the episode.

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