The allyship tips

Always be willing to reinvent yourself and learn from other people in areas that you may not have experience.

Think globally and act locally. Nothing in your immediate environment is too small for you to address. City council is not too small. It doesn't have to be grand. Even your next-door neighbor, or something on your street, still matters. So acting locally and doing something right in your community does have ripple effects and it does impact the world. While also thinking about global issues is really important, and knowing that you can do both, you can do something for both. And watching the impact that you get to make in your own sphere, your own local area is wonderful. So that's, that's my allyship tip.

Giving yourself an opportunity to tap into that childlike wonder and assume less. I've actually been having this conversation a lot recently, because we talked about like having discernment. So like, there are certain assumptions that I have based off of safety reasons, and those assumptions, again, keep me safe. But then there's other opportunities that I have where it's just like, regardless of me being aware of where this could go, I will continue asking questions because I just want to know. Like, I could be wrong, and I want to be proven wrong, and I want to learn and give myself every opportunity to learn, despite that being a very overwhelming, all-day ADHD thing - like, I have too much knowledge sometimes. It's just like, I need to stop asking questions and just be fine with not knowing. But I want to like know, I want to know who you are, I want to know more about you, I want to know what brought you here. That could also be like a therapist in me, but that's a whole other type thing. But I just really enjoy learning about people. Like I really want to know as much as I can about you. And I think me doing that has allowed me to also have less and less biases and understand where people are coming from: where they're at, how I can be supportive, if I should be supportive, if they need support, how can I show up for this specific person or this community if they choose to accept me in or have me as a part of their life? And if my assumptions end up leading me to a place that could have room for, like, a long-lasting friendship, then oh my gosh, amazing. If those conversations and questions lead me to more frustration, then okay, I just learned something, and I have another tool in my toolbox in case something else goes awry in that capacity. Like, it's just like -

I would say when somebody does share a piece of their identity with you, that is different from what you've previously known, to really pause and be mindful of the fact that this person has trusted you with that information, before you react in any way. Just that acknowledgement of like, "Wow, this person telling me this -" it may be shocking, it may be surprising, but "Wow, this person really trusted me with this information." And having that mindset, hopefully can inform how you do react, because I think that's something a lot of people miss.

I think there are themes throughout this conversation that I brought it up, and definitely one of my things that I'm trying to work on, but: continue to be curious and continue to want to learn. Because the moment you stop seeking knowledge is the moment you start becoming, I'm not going to say "complicit," but borderline. It's a great way to continue to pass on the actual truth and knowledge of what's happening. And what has happened, what is happening, and what will happen, right. So the biggest point that I have to offer is be curious and never stop learning.

Creating change comes from the roots, and it doesn't come from small pockets of organizers working against each other. Community truly makes a difference, and it's why we've gotten here today. Allyship is a Verb is a community, and it's a great example. We really need to come together the way that our ancestors used to, like Malcolm X and Martin Luther King, the way they created change, was because they had one representative coming together and that word spread like wildfire. And we need a leader like that to step up today to help create change. So let's band together y'all.

This is both for people in the LGBTQ community and for the cis, straight, people. You have to remember that everyone you meet has their own story, which you don't know. And that they got to where they are through a complex process, starting in places that you might not be able easily to imagine. And that in order to reach them, you have to respect their whole story. And that's, I think, very hard for people to do. Obviously, we think of it more as, like, straight people looking at LGBTQ people, but it's somewhat true also for LGBTQ people. You have to, looking at people on the outside, imagine that they had a whole different life that may be hard for you to put together to get where they are in order to converse with them, in any way.

I would like everyone listening to consider more carefully how to handle when you've done harm to someone. Harm can be big, harm can be little, and we all do it. We all make mistakes. I think as a good ally, you have to really be able to address when you've caused someone harm and be accepting of whatever their response is, because it's not about you and you can continue to be an ally and learn from the mistake, from whatever happened, but the person that was harmed doesn't owe you anything, including forgiveness. You have to forgive yourself, but that person doesn't have to forgive you.

This is a tip, and it's a mantra of mine: let your authenticity be the fabric of your life. Be you, uniquely you, and always you. I've started saying that about four years ago to some of my mentees, just talking about the beauty of you. Be your authentic self. Don't change you or just you for anyone else.

Actively listen and educate oneself about the experiences and the challenges that we LGBTQ+ face. I think being open to learning, asking questions, and also respecting individual identities and the pronouns, even me, I struggle, but I still do it, you know, I still, I think it's important for us to, to acknowledge this. And it's a powerful way to show our support and solidarity. Listening to podcasts like yours and mine, Charlie, I think is definitely important. And that's what we are here for, to share all our stories. We also invite prominent guests from our community and discuss everything about our community, our struggles, our successes. Our normal day to day life experiences. I think if people doesn't know how we go through with our lives, I think they will not understand us and understanding is a must before acceptance.

My good friend and a mentor in many ways because she teaches me all the time, is Waheeda Shabazzel. And she is a Black woman who has been around for a while and is so good at leading a meeting. And she has an acronym called WAIT - WAIT. And it means "why am I talking?" I love it because I've asked myself that question sometimes mid sentence during a meeting where I think that I just need to throw in my two cents, even though I'm really just regurgitating what the person before me said. Who could have been a woman or a person of color, but me and my grand sense of just kind of, you know, living in a state of privilege thinks that I need to say it too, or I need to say it in my own way. Why am I talking? Especially when you're in a room filled with people who maybe are more reticent about taking their moment about saying what they want to say - shut up, Mark. Just shut up, be quiet. It's okay. They'll live on without benefit of your remark, whatever it is, especially when it's redundant. Why am I talking?

Don't use moralistic language when you're talking about food and your body. There is no good and bad food. It's food. You might be applying that to yourself, but if you say that about yourself, like, Oh, I'm being so bad. I'm having cake. Everyone around you now knows that you associate eating cake as a negative and it's such an avoidable. thing. I know there's a lot to undo with what has been shoved down our throats from capitalism around food and our bodies and whatnot, but the more you can reduce using that moralistic language. It's softer and kinder to yourself and to those around you who it might be really triggering to hear and, and then emotional labor for them to correct and educate you. So just don't do it.

Remind yourself of your own humanity. In a lot of ways, we try to be this ideal, perfect version of ourselves, right. Like, "I have to do this, I have to say this." That's when, like, performativity can come in, right, of like, "Oh, I'm doing this because I've been told to do this. I've been said to do this. I've heard that this is the right thing to do." But, to me, if you really take the time to acknowledge that we are all human, including yourself, that we are flawed, we will never know everything. We can try to work towards our own fulfillment. We can try to work towards living our own life in a way that's loving, kind to ourselves. That's when it becomes almost like a no brainer or second nature to be kind to other people, because you recognize your own humanity in them.

I would like people to consider the relevance of someone's identity when they're being an ally. And what I mean by that is I don't go to the trans dentist to get my trans teeth trans cleaned. Sometimes me being trans is super duper relevant if I'm at the doctor talking about my hormone levels. Sometimes it's maybe relevant. When I had my gallbladder out, I told them that when they do an abdominal scan, I don't have ovaries or a uterus because my body wasn't built that way; they didn't come pre-installed at the factory. (Chris Angel laughs) Sometimes being trans might be relevant. So these days I would say unfortunately, some travel within the United States and certainly some international travel may feel more or less safe for someone who's trans; that's a maybe relevant. And then sometimes being trans is not at all relevant. If, if the question is whether we wanna order pizza or Thai food, me being trans has nothing to do with that. And so I would encourage people to think about when they're an ally, is that part of someone's identity relevant right now? And if it's not, that's okay. And if you're unsure, that might be a thing to ask, "Hey, I'm thinking about this issue and I'm not sure if it's really connected to you being trans or not - or any other part of your identity - how should I be thinking about this?" So again, thinking about relevance.

Do you work on your own shame. I really think that change can only take place when we are able to move through our own experience of shame and be present with harm that we've caused, without spiraling and shame, because then we can do something different about it. And not having capacity is a fucking real experience, especially if you were raised with a model of shame and you did something wrong, you were ashamed. It can feel really nervous system-overwhelming. You can stop hearing, you can stop thinking when you find out you've done something wrong or harmful. And being able to calm and regulate your nervous system, if and when you make a mistake can be incredibly powerful and supportive for both you and the person that you've potentially harmed, and that can actually create a relationship that's stronger.

I think it's really important that we each have our own accountability system. That can look different for every person; but accountability, including myself and anyone with any identity accountability in a way where it's not virtue signaling or not performative.

So two come to mind actually, two allyship tips. One is kind of personal, like an individual thing. And then the other is, you know, kind of like one is like an inward thing and the other one's an outward thing. So I think number one: work through your own trauma. If we wanna be able to show up for other people, then we have to heal, we have to be able to come through our difficult points, you know, the things that that have been hard for us; to find strength on the other side. I think everybody has wounds and that healing looks different for everybody, whether it's therapy or journaling or working out, you know, or all of the above or something else. Do what you need to do to be your strongest self, emotionally and mentally so that you can show up for others. Two is: try to find connection points with folks. I don't know how I wanna phrase this, to be honest with you. I'm not saying like go out of your way to talk to people that are really uncomfortable for you. I'm just saying when we're in conversation with folks that we feel are different from us, let's try and find connection points. And I think I'm saying that to cis folks. I'm actually saying that to cis folks who are trying to understand the trans community. I try to challenge myself to do that back, and it's not easy, but I will say it's maybe worth the effort.

I don't like rules, I'm a middle child. Remember?

Put yourself in the other person's shoes; the empathy piece. You know the guy that just cut you off in traffic, you're driving, he just cut you off in traffic. He didn't cut you off. He could have been getting to his mother's appointment that he's missed or his mother's in the hospital. The whole understanding the perspective of the other person. So put yourself in their shoes. Empathy.

Listen to listen, not to respond. Sometimes when I am either - I don't wanna wanna say explaining, but sometimes I am explaining my identity - people will do the thing where like, they're like, "Oh, well let me play devil's advocate and ask you this." And I was like, "But what if you didn't? What if you just listen to who I'm telling you I am? And then you just like figured it out on your own and you didn't ask me any other questions that might make me uncomfortable or -" You know. I think also like just - I've had this thing that's been happening at work a lot where like I'll write something and then I have people like rewriting it and it's like, "Well, why are you doing that though?" And it's not like there's spelling errors, cause that's fine, like fix it. But it's like they literally are just rewriting and it's like" You're not listening to me and you're not listening to the way that I want to present this." I once had somebody delete, I wrote "believe black people" and they deleted it. And I was like, what are you doing ? Like what are you doing? But like, to really, like when people are talking, when people are telling you about things you don't know; our natural thing is like, "Okay, we're listening and we're, we're gonna respond." Right? And then sometimes we start thinking about the response and we're not even thinking about what was just said. My tip is to just, just listen and sometimes like sit with it; just sit with what you're being told. It's okay. You don't have to respond right away or at all.

You need to learn when it's appropriate to stand in front of, next to, or behind the person and support them in that position as they see fit. The best way to do it is just be straight up and blunt, "What do you need? How can I support you? What you want in this moment?" And on top of that, if you take a stance, and they correct you, accept it, move on, don't be offended, just, "You're right." Take the step in the in another position as is needed.

Get really clear on what you're willing to lose. To really fully show up in your allyship, you have to know what you're willing to walk away from or put at risk. Will you stand up for your coworker if it means you could potentially lose your job? Will you speak up to a relative if it means there could be some kind of estranged or strained relationship? What are you willing to lose?

The biggest allyship tip comes back down to, like, how we apologize to people. Like, apologizing isn't easy. For me, it's all about a report on a change of behavior and then to watch that behavior change. I don't need to hear people over and over again saying, “Oh, I'm sorry I misgendered you.” I just don't want to be misgendered. I just want to watch people's behavior shift and change. So when I think about apologies, I think about, like, saying sorry, report on the change of the behavior, and then I want to watch that behavior change. And I think that’s the biggest way that allyship can continue to make me feel good and also can help all trans folks out there.

Be proud of the mistakes because they can become teachable moments. Not be proud in the sense of embrace them and become more of that. Whenever someone tells you that something that you said, something that you did, was queer phobic in any way: it takes a lot of effort for that person to share that. And sometimes it may come out as aggressive, because the experience can be very aggressive to receive that queerphobia towards oneself. It can be very scary and it can be very triggering. If there is a moment that you identify, or that someone shares with you that you are being homophobic, transphobic, biphobic, queerphobic; in any way, misogynist, racist, ableist, anything - it's a beautiful opportunity to work through that and not to confirm yourself as that part that is coming out, but to give yourself the chance to transform it. To interrupt that thought, interrupt that action, and allow for the alternative, and maybe have questions, how would that be different? This is what's going on for me, how can you help me transform that? If you want to help me beyond letting me know that it was this. And I think that's something that, at least for me, working on myself, it was very important to look back and, and see those moments. And having conversations with significant people whenever we've been able to embrace how an interaction, or how a comment, how an action is feeling in whatever way queerphobic, it's been incredibly useful afterwards.

Prepare yourself to stand up for others when they are not around. Cause this is like the most important part: when we are not here to like speak for ourselves, to fight for ourselves. When you are in a room with people who think "we are like the in-group and we can talk shit about others," that's the moment where you have to step in and say, "Well actually that's not cool because of this and this and this."

And the thing is, I know it's hard. Like I've been in a situation, or like in several situations, where I'm like, "Okay, I need to say something now. This is going to be awkward, but I have to." And my tip will be that maybe if you, if you think you won't be able to do that, like if you think that you won't find the right words in that situation, then you can practice it beforehand by, for example, role-playing with a friend. Like role play situations, think about what you're going to say, and then when the time comes, do it. Stand up for people when they're not around. This is the most important thing.

It's nothing about us without us. Every cis person needs to- every white person, every male person, everybody in a position of leadership or- or privilege needs to understand this sentence: nothing about us without us. But please start that with the humility of like, “this is not my experience, I'm channeling somebody else. Please ask a trans woman.” Find trans women who will answer your questions. Find trans women who are willing to speak to this. If you're a cis person, start your sentences with, “I don’t know if I'm fully qualified to say this, because I'm a cis person and I don't live that experience, but this is what I can tell you.” I think that would be a point of humility. And, unfortunately, I have to add this nuance, which is if you're going to ask us, also realize that we might not want to be the ambassador, or we might not want to be the teacher. We might just want to be… Robin Tran is a wonderful comedian out of LA and she has a funny thing that she says, like, “one of the worst things about being a trans woman is that everybody expects me to be the exemplary trans woman. The advocate, the activist.” She says, “I just want to be a shitty trans woman.” So account for the fact that you might catch us on a tired day. The fact that we, we might have answered this a thousand times, so we might not take you up on it. Give us the opportunity. Look for the opportunity. Have a Black person speak about race, to have a trans man or trans woman, or nonbinary person speak about trans experience, to have a migrant speak about immigration experience. Nothing about us, without us.

Approach things with curiosity and not just when someone introduces their identity to you, but all the time. In learning about what it means for them to live in their identity; for what it means for that identity to exist in the world. Whatever someone shares with you about that: approach that with curiosity, respond with curiosity. It not only allows you space to learn, but it is affirming, and allows that person to share more of their light and their self with you. And that's a lovely exchange.

This was a lovely conversation. You got me at the end though. Those last two you- mmm, yeah.

Yeah, that was good.

Good. Good, good.

I tend to insist on adding grace in any situation that I can. No community experience is a monolith. Which means you have to abandon your assumptions about queer people and queer Black and brown people because each of their experiences; it warrants your attention. And they might be bridged by commonalities, but there's something different that you can learn from each one and they each deserve your respect. So if you can respect the path that each of us has, and then learn to be graceful with that. Whether that's- don't ask 20 questions about something just because you don't understand it. Sometimes that person is just trying to have a day. The situation where you maybe know something or see something or suspect something that's none of your business is maybe the time for you to continue to be quiet. And this comes from knowing a lot of people who are very sweet-spirited people who are trying to be helpful and trying to be supportive. And they go on these tangents asking questions, and then another question, and then a follow-up question. And they get to a space where they're asking you things that are really personal or they are speaking very loudly so that other people who aren't part of the conversation can hear you and maybe you're not comfortable giving that information that- you know, things like that. I think that it's just being aware of your surroundings and aware of that person. Add some grace, give people a moment, give them some patience. Just a little bit extra can really mean so much more to them. You don't have to know anything about them to do that. You don't get to know everything about them, you know? So I think that that's another part of it, is just mind your business, be nice to people, be kind to people cuz it doesn't cost you anything, and they'll let you in when they let you in. When you're dealing with a person who is queer or part of any of these different intersectionalities we've been talking about. Just let people be sometimes, you know? I think that's, that's really the, the point of all of that , when you can, let people be.

It's a very specific allyship tip: If somebody tells you their new name, or their new pronouns, put them in your phone immediately. And, so that every time they call or text, you see it and it's a reminder to you before you interact with that person, that something has changed.

Our arms are in the air.

Like we did sports.

Allyship is an active process. I think allyship does not work well enough when we do armchair allyship. So my tip is that allies can be angry; allies can be angry about the mistreatment of other communities that they don't belong in necessarily. That anger and fury can be turned into action that can create change. I don't believe in pacifist allyship, I think we're past that. So I encourage allies to care about things enough to be angry and to turn that anger into action.

If you engage a minority person, insert minority, listen, and thank them. And that's it. Please do not push back. Please do not ask condescending questions that you pose as trying to be curious. If you ask someone a question of their experience, listen, and thank them. If you ask a academic minority person, a professional question, listen and thank them. That's the tip. Listen and thank them. That's it.

Thank you. And thank you for asking the question that way. And I've really enjoyed this interview, by the way. Don't forget to be queer, which comes out of being gay, which comes out of gaiety, which comes out of the French "joie de vivre," the joy of life. Don't forget to live our abundant lives, our lives that are full and rich, and laugh in their face, and go on with it. And that's so, so important to me. So be happy, be happy. Enjoy it, life is way too short to sit around feeling how awful it is. Okay?

Action is the most important. That, I think that action in our current society and state looks very different for people. I can't emphasize enough that action is so important because you know, people have this sentiment that, "Oh, I'm just a good person. I treat everyone well." And that- that's great, and I'm so happy for you. Thank you for being a good person. But that's not what kind of energy is being given from the other side.

That, you may not be able to go to a protest, but you can sign a petition. You may not be able to teach LGBTQ+ history, but you can correct your bigoted uncle [laughs] at the next family holiday. It is about the action, the steps that we take in our actions really dictate who we are as people. And we see that. I was looking at the numbers, and it's like 330, anti-LGBTQ+ bills have been moved in motion and is being a nice person, the same kind of energy as 330 bills? It's not. And in order to get things done, that we have to come together. It's not ever pointing your finger at somebody and saying that, "Oh, you're doing something wrong, or you're not doing enough".

It's that you know, I need all of us to come together as a community and to really move towards true allyship and go into action and so that we can see changes.

Be open to others' paths that might not, like, align to your own. That's the best way I can put it, you know? Like, everyone has to transition in the way that's best for them, and that might not be the norm for maybe what people are seeing in the media or anything, but that doesn't make it wrong or, you know, it's still valid at the end of the day, like, people have to do what's best for them. So, that would be my tip. Be open to others' paths.

My allyship tip is, is we love queer people supporting queer people, but we also love allies supporting queer folks. So I would love to start to see more allies following Everywhere is Queer. A lot of the folks that have followed Everywhere is Queer are queer, which is great, I welcome every single follower, but would love for some allies to start following and spreading the word of Everywhere is Queer as well, because this is not just for queer people. This is for everyone.

Do the work. I know people say that in so many different forms, like, on so many different platforms, but just like I talked about earlier, my dear friend put in the work to create resources for other people to be allies for this community, without asking a member of the community. So before you go out of your way to ask me, like, "oh, why don't your pronouns that?" Or "oh, blah-" look it the fuck up, like, simply go to Google and type in, like, "they/she pronouns." I promise you, there is a resource out there. I promise you, somebody else has done that work for you, and you just fucking have to read it before coming to me and asking me, as a person in the community.

"Ally" is turning into a very weird word at this point, but for me, it means somebody who does not belong to the community and is advocating for that community. So if you are somebody who falls under the umbrella of not belonging to this community, but wants to support this community, please do some work on your end. Look into your own sexuality, look into your own gender, look into the biases that you're carrying with you, then come to me and maybe we can have a conversation. While this is new for y'all, allies, it is also new for us! Like, I didn't have all these words. I told you I was, I was gay for like, a really long time. That was the only word that was available to me. So, yeah, just really understanding that, that while y'all are growing in your allyship, our community is growing as well.

I just read this in the book You Are Your Best Thing, edited by Tarana Burke and Brené Brown, and that's having a learner mindset, acknowledging and owning your privileges, and really bravery. Having a learner mindset means engage with people with the goal of growing and improving your relationships with groups that are different than your own. That's active listening. It's also embracing humility, and inviting accountability, which means that when somebody does call you in or call you out, depending on the context, you're inviting that possibility that you did do that thing because you're learning. And as learners, we're going to make mistakes. Um, acknowledging your privileges, about understanding and owning your personal privileges and how they contribute to inequities, um, and that allows you to increase your self awareness and show up differently. So trying to exercise power with instead of power over, and recognizing that impact matters more than intent.

And then bravery is about taking action and using your voice to challenge inequities. So it's dealing with behaviors, policies and actions that you encounter quickly, with grace and humility. Right? So sometimes I will say, sometimes I encounter white people who, who, uh, especially white people who get to points where anytime somebody does something racist, they're the angriest in the room, they're the most forceful in the room, and they're the most harmful in the room, right? Because they, they know about all these things, they know what these structures are, and then they just rail on somebody, right, to prove that they're one of the good ones. And I think bravery asks us to do something different, asks us to take a step back, to recognize the humanity of the person in front of us, that they might be a learner, and then try and address these situations.

Check in all the time. Not all the time, not too much. But I do this as a white person, you know, attempting to be the, like, most badass ally and accomplice to people of color. Like, if I'm partnering with a person of color on a project, every - at the end of every meeting, maybe every-other meeting, I will reserve some time as sacred at the very end, and I will put it on the agenda for us to check in about allyship and power dynamics. And I will just say, you know, I'm a white person, you're a black person or you're API, or whatever their identities are - you're Indigenous, uh, you're First Nations. And I'll say, naming that dynamic, how am I doing? Is there anything that you feel like I have done or said, any actions I've taken, any - even just a vibe you got at any point that you feel was rooted in white supremacy, white dominance, racism.

A good ally is always there to stand up and show up when you need them to, but does not take up the space for the representatives of a marginalized community. Knowing that it is not your space to talk over or voice opinions about the experiences of a community that you're trying to support, it's really important because allyship is not a badge. You can't just say "I'm an ally, and therefore I have that right." You don't. Allyship is the things you do, but they have to really serve the community you're trying to work with, representatives of their community, and making sure that you do not overstep that, and you know, take that that space up. And that you put them to the front is really, really important.

To ask me questions and to be interested in learning about my experiences. And I think that where that comes from, is that sometimes in the conversations that I have - because maybe the, the LGBTQ community looks differently from when, you know, 30 years ago, 40 years ago - that sometimes it's easy to, to say that certain things don't exist anymore. And so sometimes when I share challenges, or like the conversations that we've been having, I have had in the past some people be really quick to kind of, "Well, you know, there's so much great," you know. And, and that's true - and that feels very invalidating. Be open to hearing about someone's experience and, and, and to validate that.

If you're attending a drag show and you're a straight - you're a straight person, to show up with, uh, just a sense of humor and like, just like not taking up too much space in a gay space. Uh, for example, one of my friends, Janelle, she attends so many of my drag king shows. And for every show our host, Provvidenza, likes to greet the audience by saying, "Hey, what's going on? Where are all my gays? Where are my lesbians? Where are my straights?" And then Provvidenza will say, "Boooo!" or "Go home, straights." So - [Chris Angel laughs] some people can take that the wrong way. Um. But Janelle never does. Janelle always thinks it's hilarious, and is such a great ally. So I really appreciate her sense of humor, and ability to take a joke, because Provvidenza likes to create a very homonormative space. So, yeah. [Jaffe and Chris Angel laugh]

That active deep listening, I think is something that we forget to do. And it's such, like a, like, my grandfather said this to me years ago, but like, "Leah, you only have one mouth and two ears, like there's a reason, you know?" Like something like that. I think I was a little chatterbox little kid like, "Murh murh murh" and grandpa, really who was trying to have a moment of peace and quiet. However, I think that is a valuable thing to think about. If we are listening and considering twice as much as we are offering our own opinions on the world, think about how much more you are taking in that is beyond your own existence and perspective?

If we're able to show up for people, and by showing up, that also means shutting up and just like, and just listening, because you don't know what you don't know. And I, even as, you know, like you and I've had this conversation before, like privately, like as friends, chatting about how there's so much of your own, like, bias that can like come up in those conversations. And just because you've talked to one person who is trans, one person who is bisexual, doesn't mean that now, you know, you know trans people. You know, the bi people. Like you, you are a queer ally, because you've met one queer friend. That's not really how it works. So, I think just being really okay with that active listening. I think we're so taught to center our own positionality and experiences in the world, and the more that we can decenter that and think about the space that we hold and the space that we take up, that we're just going to be better human beings.

You have to have a stake in what you're doing. Really identify who you are in the story of this experience. What I add on top of that, is that I think there's this tendency that when you start discovering and learning about oppression, is that you're, like, "I need to fix everything! I need to like change everything RIGHT NOW!" You don't actually. What you need to do is you need to discover your stake in what it is to change the world and- and get rid of this thing. And find a really tangible way to work at it. Do things locally, do things that are immediate to you, that are connected to your close community, because that is where you will genuinely learn about connection, community, what people really need. You won't make them just this opportunity for education. You won't individualize the experience, like I talked about, and center yourself in an instance in which you are trying to, like, not perpetuate more harm, right?

Realize that you have skill sets within you that are who you are as a person. Find the thing that you feel is the thing that you offer or the things that you offer and that is your best way to do great work and connect with others. Of course, all of these fights are intertwined. Once you find out what is, like, where is your stake? What is the thing that you feel hot in the heart about and what kind of world can you make while participating in this in your community, you will feel so much more connected to like the world, to the struggle, and to the love that can exist, and the connection that can exist when we commit to each other. So, I feel like all those things sort of work together to create a actionable ally, which is what we want to be.

Can it be a two-part tip?

My tip is really, you've not arrived in knowing everything there is to know. There's something to learn every single day. And so I think that it's really important to stay hungry for information and humble, right? That especially around gender and sexuality, this is an ever-evolving journey. And we have to stay open to learning and evolving. Read the articles, right? Listen to the podcasts. If you hear a word you don't know, look it up. Try to change it in your vocabulary. I think that that's really critical to be this like, in continuing education, right? And be a lifelong learner when it comes to this. But my caveat to that is, I just want people to be so hungry for knowledge, but not zap, right? The- the- the community of like," teach me, I want to know, so it's your job to teach me." Like, before you send me a really long message, can you just read my book? Or could you know, can you borrow it from the library? Can you go and listen to some podcasts? Like, that is something that I just want more people to know of- we're so happy that you're excited about learning about this. You've got to do some self-directed educating and by all means, if you feel like you've done it all, and you've got a lingering question, please, you know, please ask. But you've got to keep learning and you can't expect marginalized communities to be your professor. Read, go- go scroll through their Instagram. Scroll through their Twitter. Click on the links they're posting, you know? Read the books they're suggesting, because we're so tired.

We're so happy you're here. Yeah, and totally! Like, and pay them. Tip them, right? Like, the unpaid labor of this community is criminal.

Hmm, I think, just to listen more. And when I say more, I think I'm talking about like, the quantity of people that you're listening to. For example, if any of my friends are listening to this right now, and I'm the only transmasculine person that they follow or listen to, maybe- maybe it's time to change that, you know what I mean? I'm not thinking of anyone in particular, I'm just, I've actually noticed more so that in a lot of cases, I'll be like, my friend's only Black friend. And I'm like, "Mmm, that's probably not great." You know, and because I'm also myself still learning so much about this. You know, and like I said earlier in the interview, like there's just so much out there. Like on social media, there's different communities that I'm not a part of, that I've started just following a lot of different people from different experiences, different walks of life.

Particularly like the Indigenous communities, I'm really trying to follow and just listen and pay attention. Because there's just so much to be learned from that. And I think that the fallacy of just like following like one person is that they're still human. And they're still figuring it out themselves. So, just having that myriad of experiences. And it could just be as simple as like following a bunch of different people on this one social media platform, or reading books, or just whatever that looks like for the individual person. Just making sure that they're getting that insight and experience from different people.

In order to be a better ally, you have to be willing to accept feedback, accept critique, right? And that, a lot of the time, is going to be uncomfortable. And sometimes our first response might be to get defensive, because we don't- we don't want to be a bad ally, right? We want to do our best. So, our response might be to get defensive and be like, "Well, no, I'm-- I'm a good ally. How dare you say something like that?" My advice is lean into the discomfort instead of trying to pull back from it or push it away. Let yourself be uncomfortable. Allow yourself to be an imperfect human being who makes mistakes, because that's the only way we learn and grow, right? Is by being told, "Hey, you made a mistake," and then taking that and learning from it.

Just trust that people know who they are best. They know themselves best and just believe that they can tell you who they are and that is the truth, right? Like, let people tell you who they are. And just believe, accept, celebrate, find out what works for them, and not try to define for them or tell them who they should be, what they are. How they're doing this wrong, you know, just instead just say, "Hey, I'm going to trust in you and I'm going to learn who you are by you telling me and that's how I will support you, and figure out how we all can navigate this world a little bit better."

Honestly, I would love if people wouldn't assume or- I would love for people to ask me what my identities mean for me in order to know how to support me better. Versus maybe hearing how I identify and then assuming certain things. Yet, just asking me how they can support me is supportive.

We really need to expand our views in terms of how sexuality shows up for folks, how their sexual orientation shows up. We need to really think outside of this, like, binary of people are gay or straight. And that's like, you know, the very much the predominant narrative and that harms so many people for so many different reasons. And not just, again, not just bi folks, but really folks of various sexual orientations.

I would encourage people to- to get really curious about the assumptions that they make, even when they're, for example, like watching a TV show, right? And there's a couple that they might assume is like, a queer couple or lesbian couple, right? And be like, "Oh, wait a minute. I know nothing about these people's genders. I know nothing about their sexual orientation. I'm 100% assuming based on like, previous narratives that I've absorbed." So, that would be one- one thing that I would encourage folks to do is actively seek out opportunities to, like, question their assumptions that they make.

My ally tip is to pause and ask yourself, "Will my compliments, questions, and language uplift this individual? Or could they possibly cause them discomfort or harm?" Because each of those things- compliments, questions, a lot of questions have called- caused me harm and discomfort and a lot of language has caused me harm and discomfort. But on the flip side, a lot of it has uplifted me. So if you are willing, and you're wanting to uplift me, that's what I would love. Uplift me and make me feel like you see me and so: pause. Before you say something and think about those things and I think that people could possibly feel a little safer in approaching if they pause to think about whether they're gonna hurt me or not.

What's important is the story. And so I would encourage that part of allyship be don't always judge a person on what they are presenting, but listen to their story. Because the story is where it's rich and the story is where you're going to connect with that person. The person that might appear so different from you, might actually be your greatest ally. So I think that for me, was the biggest lesson in creating Coco.

For me, recovery is the most important thing.

I think being a good ally, is the willingness to be uncomfortable. If you make a mistake, I'm a big believer that I would love for someone- I've been trying to start a hashtag. Yeah, 60-year-old people can start hashtags.

That's right. #AcknowledgeandApologize and then ask if there's anything needed for repair and then do better. Right. And so for me, we're always going to make mistakes. We're always going to make mistakes. But, what we do once we do them is again, for me, is where our greatest learning happens and it's where our greatest healing happens.