U-Hauling Flannel Hearts: Examining Lesbian Stereotypes feat. Jaffe

[00:00:17] Chris Angel Murphy: Hello there. My name is Chris Angel and my pronouns are they/them. Welcome to Allyship is a Verb, the LGBTQ+ podcast that explores and humanizes practicing allyship for the LGBTQ+ community and beyond.

[00:00:38] Jaffe: Hello, thanks for having me. My name is Jaffe and my pronouns are she and her.

[00:00:45] Chris Angel Murphy: This is another one of those episodes where we recorded it back in September of 2021 and it's only now being released. Jaffe is one of my longtime friends. So, we get very silly during the episode, which is very much on par with our friendship. We were part of a core group of friends who hung out a lot. We'd ride bicycles together, go clubbing, take photography classes, attend pride events, and watch shows like The L Word. We even sort of babysat together one time, which was really her doing all of the work. And I nearly broke my back on her aunt's trampoline. But dang, those were good photos and it was fun. Except for when we tried to play Candyland. Because, honestly, that game makes zero sense as an adult, and it was no longer fun. So I don't know what the appeal was when I was a kid.

[00:01:37] Chris Angel Murphy: But [Chris Angel laughs], she's a community organizer, event producer, and DJ. Her drag show, Them Fatale, gave me a chance to meet one of the previous guests on this podcast, Provvidenza. If you haven't listened to that episode yet, I highly recommend it. But anyway, on this episode, we end up talking about a hard time that came up in our friendship and tested our bond. Although it wasn't one of the things that we planned on talking about, I'm grateful it came up because it gave me some closure I didn't know I needed. So, thank you, Jaffe. Here's our chat.

[00:02:14] Chris Angel Murphy: You identify as a drag show producer and a lesbian queer woman. Can you share what it means for you to be both a "lesbian" and "queer woman"?

[00:02:27] Jaffe: Sure thing. Um, when I was coming out, the word lesbian wasn't very appealing to me. I was one of those teenagers that was like, "No labels! Everything sounds weird. I don't like it." And then when I came out, when I was 19, I just fully embraced the term. Something, something clicked and I was like, "Yes, lesbian, this works." And then when I took a queer studies class, the term "queer," I just really love that it's an umbrella term and gives you more flexibility in your identity. Really, really love identifying as queer as well.

[00:03:08] Chris Angel Murphy: That's awesome. What kind of flexibility do you feel like "queer" gives you? Is that in terms of like, who you're attracted to? Or can you share a little more about that?

[00:03:18] Jaffe: Yeah, I mean, definitely in terms of attraction, I identify as like a "gold star" lesbian, which we're not supposed to brag about. It's not a thing. There's no hierarchy. [Jaffe and Chris Angel laugh] But you know, I have had crushes on men. Don't like to tell a lot of people that, but it's real. And you can be queer and be attracted to anyone. So, I really like that. And I have many bisexual friends, and they identify as queer and bisexual, and I really like not feeling restricted by just "lesbian."

[00:03:56] Chris Angel Murphy: That's great. It's just like, an expansion pack.

[00:04:00] Jaffe: Yes. Yeah, the whole gay package. [Jaffe and Chris Angel laugh]

[00:04:03] Chris Angel Murphy: We're treating it like a game or something. Well, speaking of "gold star" lesbian. For those who aren't [Jaffe laughs] familiar with that term, what does that mean?

[00:04:13] Jaffe: Um, that means that I have only ever dated, slept with women? Only had a middle school boyfriend kiss me on the cheek, really innocent, very sweet.

[00:04:25] Chris Angel Murphy: [Chris Angel laughs] Middle school romance.

[00:04:27] Jaffe: Yes. Oh, Julio. [Jaffe and Chris Angel laugh]

[00:04:33] Chris Angel Murphy: What got you interested in producing drag shows and what makes yours unique or different from others that are out there?

[00:04:44] Jaffe: Um, so I got started back in 2018. My friend - so I, I worked for AIDS/LifeCycle for about five years, and my friend decided to do the ride. And she needed a fundraiser idea. So, we were brainstorming. And I, I've had this complaint about our community of like not seeing enough drag king shows. So we decided to just make our own drag king show as a fundraiser for her AIDS/LifeCycle ride. So that's kind of how Them Fatale started, um, back in 2018.

[00:05:22] Chris Angel Murphy: And I think some of the people who participate are also trans men.

[00:05:31] Jaffe: They are!

[00:05:32] Chris Angel Murphy: What is it like for them to also be drag kings? I mean, that's like an interesting -

[00:05:39] Jaffe: Oh, yeah.

[00:05:39] Chris Angel Murphy: - combination.

[00:05:41] Jaffe: It is. My friend, Petey Gibson, who's been with the show from the very beginning, is a trans man. And Petey just joined me as a co-producer recently. So I'm really excited to have that partnership. And just based on my conversations with Petey, it's, it's definitely interesting to figure out what routine you're going to do, because doing drag is completely different. Like if you're a trans man, dressing up as a man, it's like, what are we doing here? So sometimes Petey will just - so our show specifically is, even though it's titled as, uh, Them Fatale, drag kings. It's very genderfluid and we want to make it as inclusive as possible for drag queens, drag kings, just everyone in between. So Petey has done drag for our, our shows as a drag queen, and we'll mix it up. So there's that space, so it doesn't feel as like, you can only perform as a drag king.

[00:06:50] Chris Angel Murphy: So it's just like another expansion pack. Yeah, it's just [Chris Angel and Jaffe laugh] -

[00:06:53] Jaffe: Another expansion pack!

[00:06:54] Chris Angel Murphy: - just widening, yeah.

[00:06:55] Jaffe: We don't like limits, so, yeah.

[00:06:57] Chris Angel Murphy: Yeah, no limits. And what was the inspiration for the name? Was that like, off of like a song or a movie, or - I've never asked you and so I've been super curious about that.

[00:07:07] Jaffe: Mhm. Um, our very first show, we just called "Drag King Show," very basic. And then for our second show, we were like, brainstorming the name. And really, I just like, I came across someone online, who identified as a them fatale. And I was like, "What a cool identity!" Like it was just like in their bio name. And I was like, that would be a great name for our show. So that's where it came from.

[00:07:34] Chris Angel Murphy: Some of the most popular drag experiences folks may be familiar with would be like going to a drag bingo fundraiser, for example. What does it mean for you to produce the show? And what do you think will be different now that you have a co producer?

[00:07:51] Jaffe: Producing this show? For me, our show really started as a way to give back to the community. But that first fundraiser show, and what really inspired me was seeing shows like LA Law, which is LA women's arm wrestling. Really great show, and they always donate to different local charities. So I kind of took that example, and wanted to do that with our show. So being a part of Them Fatale has been a way to feel involved and creative and give back.

[00:08:27] Chris Angel Murphy: You were hosting these events indoors before the pandemic, and then you had to quickly pivot to going online. What was that like, and what did that involve?

[00:08:37] Jaffe: So our last show in March of 2020, it was literally March 7th. So that was our Latin lovers edition show. So everything was great that day. And then a week later, everything shut down. So it was this very strange time, as you know, but like I was watching other people's online shows, I figured out what Twitch was and how Twitch shows worked. So it was just a lot of like researching live streaming and what we could do.

[00:09:17] Jaffe: In April, we did our first virtual show on Twitch, and everyone submitted a performance video, like a music video, and Provvidenza, the host of our show, came over to my apartment. We did, we did the live shots of them, um, hosting the show, and then we throw it to a video. So very quickly, people taught themselves how to edit music videos of themselves. And we got it together and we raised money for Redline for our, for a few of our virtual shows. Redline is a bar in downtown LA, and we have a really great relationship with them. Our show has been there, um, since the beginning. So Oliver, the owner of Redline, has been very welcoming to our drag king community. It's mostly a, a gay male space. But Oliver makes it inclusive, and always welcomes us back and lets us just take over and raise money for charities, so that, keeping that partnership has been really meaningful. And it is so hard to get, especially like, a queer women's night on a Saturday in Los Angeles. So to have the privilege of like having a space on a Saturday night is so nice. And you don't have to be just like sleep deprived on a Wednesday or Thursday trying to go to queer events. So, yeah.

[00:10:46] Chris Angel Murphy: When you were doing the online shows, were you able to reach more people? And do you think you'll ever do online shows again?

[00:10:54] Jaffe: At most, we had, like 100 viewers, maybe a little bit more. Um, but we did reach people in other countries. We reached people who just are a little too far away to come. I think - you watched the show, which was great.

[00:11:11] Chris Angel Murphy: I sure did. [Chris Angel laughs]

[00:11:13] Jaffe: So that was exciting. Yeah, I love the idea of making it hybrid in the future, to make it more accessible for people and have an element of live streaming the show while people are attending. So I think that's our next step.

[00:11:31] Chris Angel Murphy: So I, I know that you're exploring a new outdoor space. And at the time this finally airs, you will have already had that experience. Do you think you're going to try to keep it outdoors for now throughout the pandemic, until things get sorted out? Or where are you at with that right now?

[00:11:53] Jaffe: For this month, we are moving to Oracle Tavern, which is a indoor-outdoor space, and their stage is like in their parking lot so it feels very, it feels a little bit more safe than being inside. And the, the reason for this is we had like a few of our drag performers express concern about indoor spaces. So I want to make sure our community feels safe when they're performing. So I think for at least for the next few months, we're gonna try to keep it outside and make sure we check vaccination cards at the door so people feel better about it. And I'm excited. This is a great space. They also host gay astrology, um. [Chris Angel laughs] So people, people are excited about it.

[00:12:39] Chris Angel Murphy: That's awesome. Speaking of accessibility, I follow your drag show account on Instagram. You were semi-recently called in by someone related to the show in your comments on one of your posts. Would you be open to sharing what happened and what you do differently now?

[00:12:57] Jaffe: Yes. So for our show in June, we posted pictures, and uh we got feedback from someone in the comments saying that they would have attended the show, but there was no interpreter provided. And they wrote that they felt like they weren't a part of the community. So with a comment like that, I felt I felt - I felt so bad. And like, I wrote them back and I said sorry for the oversight, we'll make sure to get an interpreter for the next show. And they were really sweet. Like, I think they went out of their way and they recommended an interpreter. So they didn't have to do that. But moments like that I, I'm really grateful that they let me know that I, I can be doing better and looking out for the deaf community.

[00:13:47] Chris Angel Murphy: Absolutely. So now moving forward, it sounds like you'll have an ASL interpreter.

[00:13:53] Jaffe: Yes. And we had one at our, at our show uh last month - not last month, but the month before the person who left the comment attended the show. And the interpreter's great and she's going to be with us for the next shows in the future. So I'm really excited to incorporate an interpreter on stage.

[00:14:12] Chris Angel Murphy: That's really awesome. And accessibility, so interesting, because like you mentioned some of the performers not feeling comfortable being indoors right now. I would consider that to be an accessibility issue, right, so like there's - or, or rather that you're making accommodations based on people's feedback, which I think is really cool. Are there other considerations that you've been mulling over or other things that you're thinking about doing differently in the future to continue being accessible?

[00:14:44] Jaffe: I think the - I think the element of live-streaming is just the, the next step for us that I can think of in terms of accessibility. In terms of like diversity for our show, I'm, I'm always trying to make our show more like body-diverse, get more kings of color. So that's, that's like an always thing that I'm thinking of. So yeah, especially as a white producer, gotta make sure, represent.

[00:15:17] Chris Angel Murphy: Was it fun for y'all to do something different? When you did the online format and have those music videos? I mean, certainly I can understand why a good chunk of that was pre-recorded, because it just makes it easier for you to not worry about people glitching out or something or, you know, just wifi iss- everything. I mean, there's so many things that could go wrong with a show like that. But like, did the performers give you feedback that they actually enjoyed doing something different like that, um, like doing that music video style? Or what was that like?

[00:15:50] Jaffe: I think they really enjoyed it. And a lot - the, the thing about like performers in Los Angeles is everyone has like 50 jobs. And some of them are already part-time editors in the industry. So they have the connections, they have the tools to make these incredible videos like beyond what I thought they would turn in, like, just so creative. So I think it was a really great outlet for people, especially during such a, a hard time. And we tried to keep our live show as interactive as possible. Because that was like our one time to gather as a drag community. So as much as we could, yeah, just like talking back to the, the comments, and having Enza engage was really fun.

[00:15:52] Jaffe: You have quite the experience with producing or being involved in other kinds of LGBTQ+ events, too. Can you share what some of those have been, and what it's like to be so involved in the community in those ways?

[00:16:50] Jaffe: Yeah, sure. I worked at the LGBT Center for eight years.

[00:16:55] Chris Angel Murphy: Oof!

[00:16:55] Jaffe: So really, just like, you see my face, it's a gay face. It's from the LGBT Center. That's how people know me, they're like, "Do I know you?" No, I just worked at the LGBT Center for a very long time. But yeah, so I worked as a production coordinator for AIDS/LifeCycle. And I've also done the ride from San Francisco to LA. So I feel like that experience really made me like want to give back and organize fundraisers, specifically for AIDS/LifeCycle, and get more uh women riders, just representing on the ride. So that really has been a big part of like, why I've been like organizing, and trying to give back even though I'm not at the, the Center anymore.

[00:17:46] Chris Angel Murphy: Yeah, and you've had a lot of different roles with that, too, because you've been a "roadie," which, if I'm remembering correctly, is like when you're part of like the pitstops, and taking care of folks and making sure they're able to complete the ride as best as possible and as safely as possible. And you've also ridden it yourself. What were those experiences like for you?

[00:18:06] Jaffe: Yeah, I mean, the first time I saw the ride was as a, as a roadie. And it's a different - it's definitely a different experience than being a cyclist. You see all the behind the scenes like setting up the grid for where people put their, their tents. It was a really cool experience. And I made - I made really close friends when I did the ride as a cyclist that I'm still friends with today. So much fun working on the ride.

[00:18:34] Chris Angel Murphy: We've been friends for a long time, now.

[00:18:38] Jaffe: Very long. [Jaffe laughs]

[00:18:41] Chris Angel Murphy: I can have you vouch that I've had basically the same haircut for like, at least 15 years now.

[00:18:46] Jaffe: Have I not parted my hair like this forever? [Chris Angel laughs] Okay. [Jaffe laughs]

[00:18:50] Chris Angel Murphy: We both have the same hair. [Chris Angel and Jaffe laugh] Something that we've done is we've gone to clubs, you know, in, in West Hollywood, mostly because at that time, that's what was available to us. Long Beach would have been a heck of a commute if we were trying to go [Chris Angel laughs] to different clubs. But we've also been to places like Los Angeles Pride together, which is hosted in West Hollywood, which is where a lot of gay male bars and, and clubs are. I think at the time you and I were, you know, especially early on in our friendship, we were able to go to lesbian bars that have since closed down and that's been something that's been happening across the nation. But it's been really interesting to see gay male bars do well and have multiple - and like have all of these different themes and everything. And I, I know there's like documentaries or something and just, you know, projects and things being done around that kind of stuff. So I'm just wondering, you know, especially now that you are a - and have been a drag show producer for a while, when you think about places like Pride, or these clubs or these bars, what have you enjoyed about them? And what do you hope to see done differently in the future?

[00:20:10] Jaffe: Uh, yeah, it was definitely a different time in, like, 2009 when we were going to our first like, Pride festivals. We had - remember Truckstop? Like -

[00:20:10] Chris Angel Murphy: Mhm.

[00:20:10] Jaffe: Things, things for - we had a few spaces. And now there aren't really, I don't think there are any, like women-owned spaces or bars in West Hollywood, specifically, or just all of Los Angeles. There's a new bar called Hot Donna's, and they've been fundraising doing a few events this summer. We did one of our - one of our drag shows as a fundraiser for them. Their goal is to open a bar in West Hollywood that is for women, and also inclusive to the trans community. So, very excited for that to happen. I would say for, for the scene right now, spaces like Oliver's bar, like him letting us share the space and put on our events and have, have like, Saturdays and Sundays for women events, is very important. So I would love to see like, more, more like gay male bars have days that are women parties, and just, just giving us a little bit more space would be nice. So - until we own the spaces.

[00:21:37] Chris Angel Murphy: Yeah, cuz we, I think even as early as potentially around like 2007 was when we started going clubbing. And yeah, we were just little baby queers.

[00:21:50] Jaffe: Oh, we were at Rage -

[00:21:51] Chris Angel Murphy: We were at Rage.

[00:21:52] Jaffe: We were at Rage. [Jaffe laughs]

[00:21:53] Chris Angel Murphy: But you know, and - and that one in particular, because that was the only one where you could be under the age of 21.

[00:22:00] Jaffe: Oh, got it.

[00:22:02] Chris Angel Murphy: Yeah. So that, that was also an important space. And I do remember we had at least one or two. I knew of like Oil Can Harry's in like Studio City, and I never got to go there. I think then there was another one in like, North Hollywood or -

[00:22:18] Jaffe: Oh, that just closed. Oxwood Inn.

[00:22:21] Chris Angel Murphy: Yeah. And I don't know -

[00:22:23] Jaffe: Yeah, I'd never been there.

[00:22:24] Chris Angel Murphy: I've only been once.

[00:22:24] Jaffe: But I heard that it was a lesbian bar. Okay. Got it.

[00:22:27] Chris Angel Murphy: I was there once. And so I, I guess the other elephant in the room that I just wanted to address for everyone listening is like, there was a period of time I did identify as a lesbian. And I mean, a really interesting thing happened throughout our friendship, because you got to, like, experience me a bit as I came out as, at that time, genderqueer, and wanted people to call me, again at that time, Chris. And I was using they/them pronouns, and I, I was talking about, um, you know, just different things that I saw for myself. And so, yeah, I mean, this is a whole different journey we could take, but yeah, you, you got to see some of my, like, transitional phases, you know, of trying to find spaces and community. So.

[00:23:16] Jaffe: Yeah.

[00:23:16] Chris Angel Murphy: I think I'll just quickly say like, it was hard for me to lose those spaces. Because as people started perceiving me to be a man, uh, especially in like, what was supposed to be a safer space for women. I mean, especially back then we didn't really, I don't think we really knew about terms like "nonbinary" yet. Or - you, talking about things like being gender non-conforming, it was pretty binary. And so, yeah, it was really hard for me to continue to try to exist in those spaces, and continue to go out with all my friends who did identify as lesbians, because I definitely felt the shift of when I like, wasn't welcome anymore. So I think I, I bring that up, because I love what you're sharing about how spaces are being more inclusive today. And it's not going to be perfect, right? And there is -

[00:24:02] Jaffe: They're asking for feedback. They're trying. Yeah, they're trying to get it right.

[00:24:07] Chris Angel Murphy: I don't know. I guess, was there anything -

[00:24:08] Jaffe: I -

[00:24:08] Chris Angel Murphy: - else you wanted to say to that? I'm sorry. [Chris Angel laughs]

[00:24:08] Jaffe: Yeah, yeah no!

[00:24:08] Chris Angel Murphy: I was about to go to another question.

[00:24:12] Jaffe: No, no, it's good. I want to - I just wanted to mention that you're my first friend that has come out as genderqueer and used they/them pronouns. So I feel like with you, there was like a learning curve of "this language is new to me." So I definitely messed it up. And I mean, yeah, you're, you're my, you're my they/them pioneer. So.

[00:24:39] Chris Angel Murphy: [Chris Angel laughs] Yeah, and it - I couldn't tell you what changed that now I identify as like, nonbinary, trans and queer. But, I do remember having a lot of problems with our friend group. And I, I was -

[00:24:56] Jaffe: Oh, yeah.

[00:24:56] Chris Angel Murphy: - very public because I was the president of the Gay-Straight Alliance at the community college where a lot of us had met. And that - yeah, that was how our group sort of connected. So yeah, I don't know, if you don't mind going there a little bit like I think it was interesting for me. Something I - so there's a few thoughts I have going on. I mean, number one, I felt like you were a lot more graceful than most of the, the friends when I was dealing with that. And I say that because I also felt this tension, like, I just couldn't go back to that whole group, and that I had to just cut everyone out. [Jaffe hums in acknowledgment] And then a series of very unfortunate events followed after that. [Chris Angel laughs] Which we could talk about, if we wanted to - ahh! [Both laughing] But - yay crunchy things!

[00:25:46] Jaffe: So crunchy.

[00:25:47] Chris Angel Murphy: So crunchy. And so - but like, and you're one of the people I was afraid that I would have to cut too. I didn't feel like I could go non-contact with certain people, but then keep certain other people in my life because it was basically - it's not like I was going to be breaking up the group. But it was going to create a weird tension for everyone. And so I felt like I had to wander off by myself and do my own thing. And, and I know, it's kind of sad saying that, but that's true. That's how I felt. But I felt like you were very graceful about it. Because when I felt like I had to go no-contact and cut people out, we had a good conversation around it. And I can't remember everything we had said, but our friendship was able to survive that. And it's definitely changed. I mean, we're definitely not as close as we were like, at that time. And I'm still grateful that we were able to have the times that we did, because you know, it is part of my history. I don't want to deny it. I think it's important.

[00:26:42] Chris Angel Murphy: I mean, so like if I get invited to a lesbian-only space now, like I was this - even just this year, someone tried to invite me to a lesbian speed-dating event. I was just like, "Okay." [Chris Angel and Jaffe laugh] "You really, you really don't get me. You really don't get me." So yeah, cuz it, it wasn't meant to be inclusive, like it really was supposed to be for just, you know, women -

[00:27:07] Jaffe: Yeah.

[00:27:07] Chris Angel Murphy: - who are lesbians. It wasn't meant to be like, also inclusive and expansive of trans identities and nonbinary people and stuff, such as myself. So, yeah, for, for whatever that's worth, I can say, like I, I do, I do feel that you were very graceful. But yeah, that, that was like one of my worst times, because so many events happened right after that, that I was just reeling and not sure. [Chris Angel laughs] Like, about anything - that I'd have friends who would love me for me, that I would have family. I mean, there were just so many things that happened. So I think it was a learning curve for both of us.

[00:27:44] Jaffe: Yeah, lot - lots of learning. And I, I remember like having, like you were talking about potential surgeries. And I remember that being an issue for us, like me having concerns about like, just the, like, the physical impact on your body, and like, even if we are supposed to have those conversations. And like, to me, it makes sense now that it's, it's your body. And people - like, we were really close, though, I felt like we could talk about stuff like that.

[00:28:18] Chris Angel Murphy: Yeah.

[00:28:19] Jaffe: But I think I would approach the - our conversations differently if we had them now.

[00:28:26] Chris Angel Murphy: Absolutely. And - and same, same. Like, now I feel a lot better about being able to pick and choose who I go no-contact with.

[00:28:34] Chris Angel Murphy: "Going no-contact" is a term that is not specific to our community. However, it's something that we may have to practice if people in our lives are not affirming of who we are. This can be a challenging and personal decision. So the best way you can support someone is trusting that they need to do this for themself. Going no-contact means that we may cut someone out of our lives for a period of time, or for the rest of time. If the person being cut is also in your life, be sure to clear up any boundaries with the person needing to go no-contact, so you can best honor them and their wishes. This can come up in friend groups or families, for example.

[00:29:13] Chris Angel Murphy: Like, we had fun, and we were always like hanging out, like we always had plans every week, sometimes multiple times a week. And I remember one of our friends got - it was really big at that time that we played the fake guitar and drums and stuff. What was that called? Like, I wanna call it -

[00:29:30] Jaffe: Guitar Hero? [Jaffe laughs]

[00:29:31] Chris Angel Murphy: Guitar Hero and stuff! Yeah, those. We were playing those, but it was always like "lez rock" and stuff - you know, some play on like lesbian identity, and I was just like feeling salty about that -

[00:29:40] Jaffe: Yeah.

[00:29:40] Chris Angel Murphy: - because then it was like, "and Chris." And so it never - yeah, that, that like quickly - it was not feeling good.

[00:29:45] Jaffe: And then the bad, uh, trans representation on The L Word.

[00:29:49] Chris Angel Murphy: Oh, gosh. Poor Max.

[00:29:50] Jaffe: So. That wasn't very helpful. Poor Max. What a storyline.

[00:29:52] Chris Angel Murphy: Poor Max. And, and that's, that too is like, I didn't even have the language to articulate because I was in early - I think, yeah, late late high school, I remember watching that with a family, like my friend and, and her family. And then I think we eventually also would watch it sometimes, too. But I, I didn't have the language for why the character didn't feel great. And some of the situations they'd put his character in. And now I can have the language for that, but. And I, it probably helped to some degree, but there were also very harmful tropes and, and myths and misconceptions that they perpetuated with his character. So it's also interesting seeing the new L Word.

[00:29:54] Jaffe: Mmhm.

[00:29:54] Chris Angel Murphy: Right, this next generation one.

[00:29:56] Jaffe: Oof. [Jaffe laughs]

[00:30:01] Chris Angel Murphy: I can't watch it, because to me, it hasn't evolved nearly as much as I think it should have for being like, what, over 10 years now?

[00:30:47] Jaffe: For being the next generation.

[00:30:49] Chris Angel Murphy: For being the next generation. And I, I, I don't want to take away from those who are acting on that show and, and, and doing the work, you know, and there's just, just so many people involved. I'm sure there's good people doing good work on there. And, I mean, goodness, they just also I think, broke a record with having a sex scene with a disabled person, which is great, because we don't - you know, talking about representation, we don't really see that.

[00:31:15] Jaffe: Yeah, no.

[00:31:15] Chris Angel Murphy: So I think there's been great things that they've done. And also, I just can't watch your show, because I don't think it's like the quality I would expect in a show in 2021.

[00:31:26] Jaffe: Yeah, I - I am a dedicated viewer. Um. [Jaffe laughs] But I, I definitely have critiques too. So, there - it just seems very predictable. And also I just want, I just want Alice to be more chill. I'm like, we love Alice, come on.

[00:31:43] Chris Angel Murphy: [Strained tone] Yeah...

[00:31:44] Jaffe: But her - but her - [Chris Angel laughs] I don't know. We'll see where it goes.

[00:31:51] Chris Angel Murphy: You will cuz I won't. [Chris Angel laughs]

[00:31:53] Jaffe: Oh, I'll - I'm gonna keep watching.

[00:31:56] Chris Angel Murphy: Yeah, I - and I'm so happy for you. Um. [Jaffe laughs] Yeah, I guess just to quickly finish the thread of the conversation from before like, just so folks are aware, like, yeah, I willingly told you and, and certain close friends about surgeries I was considering and stuff. And I did that because I knew that my family wasn't going to be supportive. Y'all were my closest friends, especially at that time of my life. You were my people, you were my inner-circle group. And so, um, it did feel important to have like your approval and your support. I, I, I know that I was looking for support and excitement, and I think I was met with a lot of mixed reactions. And a lot of people saying like - well, not a lot of people saying, but certain folks in our friend group saying, "Well, I won't find you attractive anymore." Or like I remember, I remember, like hearing certain things like that. And it's sort of stuck with me over the years.

[00:32:46] Chris Angel Murphy: And I, I think some of it, if I'm being super honest, has impacted how I even see myself today. Like, I'm always wondering if I'm trans enough, or if I'm like, [Chris Angel laughs] I don't know, attractive enough, or whatever. Yeah, I, I guess - I don't know. All that to say, I'm just super grateful that we're able to be friends today. And we're able to have these kinds of conversations and talk about that, even though, again, that was a very crunchy time. [Chris Angel laughs]

[00:33:09] Jaffe: It was a crunchy time. [Jaffe laughs]

[00:33:11] Chris Angel Murphy: It was a crunchy time. Yeah, so thanks for that.

[00:33:14] Jaffe: Yeah!

[00:33:15] Chris Angel Murphy: There's a lot of myths and misconceptions about like, lesbians, or, or queer women in general. And so we're just gonna kind of [Jaffe laughs] talk about them. [Chris Angel laughs]

[00:33:26] Jaffe: Let's do it.

[00:33:26] Chris Angel Murphy: Let's do this. So, one of them that's written in this Teen Vogue article is saying all lesbians fit into the "butch" or "femme" dichotomy.

[00:33:35] Jaffe: I would strongly disagree. Especially in Los Angeles, there are lots of very "fashion lesbians" that are also sporty, that also have long nails. So I don't think anyone wants to be put in a box and reinforce the binary of "butch-femme." Some people, I, I get that they want to, like, cling to like a term, and it works for certain people. But I feel like the new uh TikTok queers are not having it, and will be more expansive in their identities.

[00:34:12] Chris Angel Murphy: Yeah, cuz I mean, I remember, again, all in that - in the crunchy time, from the crunchy timeline.

[00:34:17] Jaffe: Yes. [Jaffe laughs]

[00:34:17] Chris Angel Murphy: I'm talking about it like it's MC or something. Um. I do remember, especially even early in high school, people always trying to just say that, "Oh, well, you're just like a, a soft butch, or a baby butch lesbian," and denying when I thought there was more to me than that, that I thought I was at least bisexual, and - the gender stuff I hadn't figured out yet because I just didn't have that language. But, you know, even when I've looked at you over the course of our friendship, I don't know that I ever put you in a box. I didn't feel like I could ever put you in a box.

[00:34:49] Jaffe: Thank you. [Chris Angel laughs] I did - I did cut my hair like shoulder-length. And I was like, "I'm just cutting my hair!" But it really was just like an adorable pixie cut like it wasn't like - it was never short enough to be like, "that girl's gay" from a distance. [Chris Angel laughs] Um. It was just a shoulder-length hair cut. So that was my rebellious act.

[00:35:12] Chris Angel Murphy: But I do remember us wanting to be seen. I mean, we have that brief stint of wanting to get involved in like rugby. And then I was like, "No, I'm gonna probably die."

[00:35:21] Jaffe: I got popped in the face the first day.

[00:35:23] Chris Angel Murphy: Oof.

[00:35:23] Jaffe: [Jaffe laughs] Yeah.

[00:35:24] Chris Angel Murphy: But yeah, I do remember it being important for us to be like read or seen as queer and like visibly queer, whatever that means. But yeah, I don't know. Like, for whatever it's worth, I've just never tried putting you in a box because I've just known you as Kathleen. And I don't - I think I knew how harmful it was to have someone try to force another into a box or, or a label that doesn't fit. And so I was just always looking for you to be you. And I don't know, be happy with that. So I'm - are, are there other labels that you've used or thought about using, or?

[00:35:58] Jaffe: I mean, when I was little, I always considered myself a, a tomboy. And I had a little backwards cap. [Chris Angel laughs] And I thought that was, that was fun. I liked - I really liked the term when I first came out, like, "chapstick lesbian." I was like this - "I will not - I will wear comfortable clothes. But I, I will not forget my chapstick. So, you know, little femme, sort of?"

[00:36:22] Chris Angel Murphy: Right.

[00:36:23] Jaffe: I don't know. And my hair has been very long. I've never done like a really short, like, "gay haircut." [Chris Angel laughs] So.

[00:36:31] Chris Angel Murphy: We're using air quotes here.

[00:36:33] Jaffe: Air quotes.

[00:36:34] Chris Angel Murphy: Another one is, you can identify a lesbian by their flannel. So I think this ties into what we were just talking about. I mean, I definitely felt like there was a part I had to play. And I had to kind of like, butch it up as much as possible. Did you ever feel trapped or stuck feeling like, you had to look at your outfit and be like, I don't know, "I must fetch my finest flannel." [Jaffe and Chris Angel laugh] Like, what was that like for you?

[00:37:03] Jaffe: When I came out, and then like every like holiday, like for years after my mom would just get me like really like "gay" apparel. So she would get me - she got me like flannel-lined jeans. Like, we - I live in Los Angeles, like [Chris Angel laughs] I don't understand, but I really appreciate her making an effort and getting me like, flannel jackets and button ups and I thought that was really sweet. So yeah, I, I think you can do like performative, like, gay attire and like you're making fun of, of the stereotype of gay clothing. Um, at least like I, I definitely have a flannel button-up when - for when I need to perform the butch identity. So that's fun.

[00:37:54] Chris Angel Murphy: I think there was even one point we passed around a mullet wig at a store.

[00:37:59] Jaffe: Oh my god.

[00:38:01] Chris Angel Murphy: And I felt it was like channeling our ancestors or something. [Chris Angel and Jaffe laugh] It was like a big mullet, and I, to this day, I don't - and I've actually had variations of mullet, so I'm one to talk. It's not been my favorite hairstyle. But yeah, it's just - yep.

[00:38:18] Jaffe: I am not gonna even try to pretend I can pull off a mullet, so. [Chris Angel laughs]

[00:38:24] Chris Angel Murphy: Well, I, I think I can jump to "all lesbians love The L Word." I think we've just said that there's either a love-hate relationship, or a hate relationship, or - I don't know.

[00:38:33] Jaffe: Yes.

[00:38:34] Chris Angel Murphy: Was there anything else that you wanted to share on that one?

[00:38:36] Jaffe: I feel like the community has a love-hate relationship, and it does feel like a requirement to watch if you're a new queer, and you haven't seen The L Word. It's, it feels like required viewing, at least to be able to talk about the show at like L Word themed parties, and just - yeah.

[00:38:56] Chris Angel Murphy: Yeah, when we were so lucky to be growing up in LA in certain respects, because we had access to events like Outfest, which is an LGBTQ+ film festival. And they even have branches off of that for people of color and, and things like that. So we were stuck with a lot of TV and movies from like the 90s where queer characters were still killed off or there had to be something super wrong with them. They just couldn't be healthy, functioning human beings. There was just always some like dark, secret dark side of them, something that gave them a very undesirable character flaw. So unless we watch things like But I'm a Cheerleader, which was definitely poking at stereotypes of gender roles and things like that, like just a lot of the movies and TV shows we had access to were harmful.

[00:39:49] Jaffe: Yeah, I really enjoyed watching bad lesbian movies, [Chris Angel laughs] but I would get very angry at the screen. Lots, lots of yelling. There were a few like Kissing Jessica Stein. I think - I think she's bisexual and then ends up with a man at the end. There's - there were very few happy gay endings -

[00:40:09] Chris Angel Murphy: Yeah.

[00:40:09] Jaffe: - that I recall. So.

[00:40:11] Chris Angel Murphy: I felt at least that I had to watch this stuff because it's like, I needed to prove that like there are viewers in hopes that it would get better. The writing in terms of like, the happy gay endings - [Chris Angel laughs]

[00:40:24] Jaffe: Mhm.

[00:40:25] Chris Angel Murphy: - that you're speaking of. And so, yeah, it was like really complicated. Fast forward to today, I think there are a lot of better shows out there, which is why I come back to being so disappointed with this current iteration of The L Word. I'm like, ehh...

[00:40:38] Jaffe: There's so many other gay shows to watch. We don't - we don't have to be dedicated fans like me. So.

[00:40:44] Chris Angel Murphy: No. [Jaffe laughs] I think you and I have had this joke before as friends, and because it was just like an in-community thing between us, but how do you feel about the "U-Haul joke" today? Do you believe it's an in-community joke only? And - I mean, basically, the whole thing of "What does a lesbian bring on a second date? A U-Haul." So I've just been curious about your thoughts about this joke for some reason.

[00:41:11] Jaffe: Oh, sure. Yes. Okay. So this U-Haul stereotype has definitely, like, informed the way I approach relationships, because I do not want to be this stereotype. Because sometimes, it feels like it can be real, because, you know, I-I've just heard stories of other people. And maybe I have also rushed into relationships, like immersive weekend of one date that's just gone on a few days. [Chris Angel laughs] So people like to share their traumas up front, share their food allergies, just a lot of sharing. So I've been trying to like, take it slow. But I would say it's definitely an, an in-community joke. I feel like it would be strange if a straight person was like, "Tell me about that U-Haul." [Chris Angel laughs] Unless they're like, unless they're like working at the LGBT Center and they're like an, um, an ally. I think it just depends on the person and their connection to the community.

[00:42:17] Chris Angel Murphy: Right. So yeah.

[00:42:18] Jaffe: Yeah.

[00:42:18] Chris Angel Murphy: Some jokes are meant for like the community only.

[00:42:21] Jaffe: But yeah, I think - I think it is, maybe, it is a stereotype we should be aware of. [Jaffe laughs]

[00:42:29] Chris Angel Murphy: Yeah.

[00:42:29] Jaffe: Because straight people can rush into things too. Let's - but, yeah.

[00:42:33] Chris Angel Murphy: Mhm. Can you share about a time you felt truly supported by someone, and what they did to show up for you?

[00:42:42] Jaffe: My gay aunt Sam was very supportive when I came out, like they were my first, like, gay person that I met. And I was very lucky that they joined our family. So I just remember, like, every holiday they would ask me, "So, are you dating anyone?" And I'd just be like, "No." [Jaffe and Chris Angel laugh] Every year it was like the same conversation, and I was very thankful that she at least asked, because no one else would ask me so I, I felt like I was getting away with like, being weird and in the closet. Um, and then when I finally came out, she - when I was 19 - she wrote me a like, "congratulations on coming out", a coming out card. And it was really sweet. And she, she burned me like Margaret Cho DVDs, [Chris Angel laughs] and like rom-com lesbian movies. I was just like, she didn't have to do all that. So it was like a welcome to - "here's your toaster, welcome to the community" [Chris Angel laughs] welcome packet. So she - I felt very supported from Sam.

[00:43:47] Chris Angel Murphy: Okay. What's this about lesbians and toasters? Back when I was self-identifying as a lesbian, it was another one of those in-community jokes you'd hear, much like the U-Haul one, and repeat to your friends. It felt like a tradition that had been passed down to us and we had to keep it alive. But I never stopped to question where it came from, or why we said it. Basically, we'd joke that if you quote-unquote "recruited someone," you'd get a free toaster oven. [Chris Angel laughs] This was very exciting to us for some reason. And sometimes we would say that we were owed several, and they must be backordered. Spoiler alert: this is not how the LGBTQ+ community works. But I digress. I did some research, and it turns out it's from the Ellen sitcom, the one where she publicly came out in the early 90s. Now, I don't want to spoil it and who's all in this clip, but there's a clip of it online, and I'll be linking to it under Resources on the episode page. Please check it out.

[00:44:49] Chris Angel Murphy: What's one allyship tip you'd like for everyone listening to consider?

[00:44:54] Jaffe: If you're attending a drag show and you're a straight - you're a straight person, to show up with, uh, just a sense of humor and like, just like not taking up too much space in a gay space. Uh, for example, one of my friends, Janelle, she attends so many of my drag king shows. And for every show our host, Provvidenza, likes to greet the audience by saying, "Hey, what's going on? Where are all my gays? Where are my lesbians? Where are my straights?" And then Provvidenza will say, "Boooo!" or "Go home, straights." So - [Chris Angel laughs] some people can take that the wrong way. Um.

[00:45:42] Chris Angel Murphy: Right.

[00:45:42] Jaffe: But Janelle never does. Janelle always thinks it's hilarious, and is such a great ally. So I really appreciate her sense of humor, and ability to take a joke, because Provvidenza likes to create a very homonormative space. So, yeah. [Jaffe and Chris Angel laugh]

[00:46:03] Chris Angel Murphy: Well, our conversation went a bunch of places this episode, but I hope you were able to get something out of it. What I'm hearing from Jaffe's tip is to be mindful of when you're taking up space in a community that isn't yours. It's common that straight women, for example, may go to gay clubs and bars because they feel safer, and it can be really fun, though the community isn't always happy about that. Our community can be pretty divided on this, some folks believing we deserve spaces that can be ours and ours alone. Though there are plenty of events that are more open, such as drag shows. Just something to think about and be mindful of.

[00:46:45] Chris Angel Murphy: Here are some self-reflection questions based on what we discussed this time. Number one, do I have any transgender people in my life who I've asked invasive questions, especially about their body? Number two, have I ever made any in-community jokes from a community I didn't belong to? Number three, have I ever had a hard time with someone coming out to me or inviting me in to who they are? Number four, have I ever apologized for any mistakes I may have made? Do I know what to do differently moving forward?

[00:47:28] Chris Angel Murphy: Number five, would I ever go to and support a drag show if I haven't already? Number six, do I know how drag performers are different from people who are transgender?

[00:47:42] Chris Angel Murphy: As a gentle reminder, please rate the podcast on Spotify or Apple if you listen there. Visit allyshipisaverb.com for any resources and a full transcript of the episode. And remember, sometimes allyship means being mindful of the space that you take up.