[00:00:00] Charlie Ocean: Well, hello there. I'm Charlie Ocean, and my pronouns are they/them. Welcome to Allyship is a Verb, a podcast for people practicing allyship for the LGBTQ+ community and beyond.

[00:00:26] Cielo Sunsarae: Hi, my name is Cielo Sunsarae, and my pronouns are they/he.

[00:00:30] Charlie Ocean: Today we are traveling to Florida to meet with my friend, who is the founder and executive director of Queer Trans Project. You've likely heard me talking about QTP before.

But before we go there, some thanks are in order. Thank you, Shannon! (voice echoes) Thank you for supporting the Indiegogo campaign; I appreciate you, friend. So so so so much. I'd also like to extend another thank you to Allie, Destiny, Julie, Katie, Danielle, Cody, Sarah, and Shindell, who all contribute monthly. I couldn't do this without you.

It also means a lot when y'all reach out and let me know how different episodes and guests resonate with you. So please, always feel free to reach out to me and tell me what you're thinking about the self-reflection questions, or anything else that's on your mind.

I am so proud of the guests that we have on today, because starting a non profit's no joke and they provide a lot of awesome services. And while we will hear that he does have awesome support by way of their partner, and also their wonderfully diverse board, it's still a lot. And especially if you're someone like us who has ADHD, and there are certain tasks that may be hard for us to do, or complete, even if we really want to do them, and we're really passionate about it. So, you'll get to hear some of that too.

I do want to take a moment to brag about QTP because they have a few resources, some of which you'll hear about later in the conversation. The first one is their Build-a-Queer Kits. I've talked about these before, they are awesome. They are free, and shipping is free across the United States, including Puerto Rico. BIPOC trans individuals get 30 minute early access, and it includes items that you can pick, like packers, binders, bras, makeup, and more.

There's also flight assistance for gender affirming care. There's also the newest program that we're gonna hear about today called the QTP Loveline, of which yours truly has submitted a clip, so you might hear me. And Gender Grip Tape. What the heck is that? Stay tuned to find out.

Let's dive in to the first three self-reflection questions, and be sure to stick around after the conversation for three more:

1. Can I find clothing in my size at stores near me without having to shop online or place a special order?

2. Do I have any sensory needs related to the clothing I wear?

3. Do I think fat is a bad word? Do I have any trouble saying it?

And now, our conversation.

You are Black, trans, non binary, and plus-sized. What do those intersections mean to you?

[00:03:34] Cielo Sunsarae: I think I never realized how intersectional everything was until I started to transition. I remember when I first started transitioning, I went into like, Target, because they have really nice quality clothes in there. And I went into the men's section to pick out an outfit and my chest size was like a 42 triple J before I got top surgery, and I was also wearing a men's size 50 pants.

But I couldn't find anything in there because Target only sells up to a size 38 in the store, which is ridiculous to me because that's not like the average size of a person. And they definitely didn't have any shirts my size. So that was one of the first main barriers and understanding of the intersectionality of my identity.

And I recognize that in all stores. And I brought up the clothing thing because clothing is a great way for you to express yourself and it's often one of the first ways that individuals socially transition. That happens to me at like every store I go to. So I guess that's like the intersectionality of me being plus size and transmasculine nonbinary.

I don't know, just in summary, everything is intersectional. Nothing is ever mutually exclusive. Like there's always a conglomerate of things going on at the same time. (laughs)

[00:04:56] Charlie Ocean: The clothing stuff - I think I've been calling myself "soft." I just really like that, and I like reclaiming something like that that's been thrown at me as some sort of negative thing. I mean that more as like an energy thing versus a weight thing, but certainly there's, you know, stigma with weight as well. But, yeah, it's really frustrating.

I used to be a 38. That has changed, and as you've mentioned, places like Target, a lot of the main, like, department stores you might see, a lot of them that is the highest they go.

And it's weird because, I'm already an awkward individual; people know this. However, I'm even more awkward with the clothing stuff, cause like, I can never quite find anything that like fits my body in a way that feels like it's flattering for me. Something's always off. If I try, (laughs) you're, you're nodding your head.

If I try to get a suit or something, I feel like I'm wearing my dad's clothing; it's way too big on me, or something. Or the arms are always too long, and -

[00:06:03] Cielo Sunsarae: Or the shoulders.

[00:06:04] Charlie Ocean: Yes, the shoulders are like a hot mess. Things just don't quite fit right, and part of that is the issue of fast fashion. It's also really expensive to have to get everything tailored, and it doesn't mean that they can do it perfectly to your body.

So, and I know it's not just like a unique issue for us, but I even know cis het people, that they have some of the same issues. Because, especially for men, you know, if they have larger thighs or something, it's harder for them to find pants that fit flattering on them and aren't too tight or something.

And so it's a major issue and I think what frustrates me is that it becomes this cumbersome thing because and I'm gonna use heavy air quotes here (laughs) the "normal sized" stores - I'm too big for them - but then I'm too small for like the bigger - yeah, you're like yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So I'm like, what am I supposed to do?

And then you try to talk to the salespeople about it. And they're like, "Well, you should shop online because, you know, we have more sizes." I don't have time to sit here and buy three different sizes, have it shipped to me - meanwhile, that's a fortune - have to try them, have an existential crisis about it.

[00:07:10] Cielo Sunsarae: Oh, gosh.

[00:07:11] Charlie Ocean: Get a refund, send it back. Also, my ADHD, you're asking too much of me. (laughs)

[00:07:15] Cielo Sunsarae: (laughs) Yeah, right.

[00:07:15] Charlie Ocean: So like, I - it's just, clothing is so frustrating. Once I finally find something that fits me in some sort of way that's flattering, I'm buying it in 12 different colors. (Cielo laughs) You know, there used to be this thing that I grew up with where, whether it's pants or a shirt, you know, you get at least two of them if you like them.

[00:07:34] Cielo Sunsarae: Mm-hmm.

[00:07:34] Charlie Ocean: Um, no, I do like 12 because I'm just like, I don't know when this is going to happen again. (laughs)

[00:07:39] Cielo Sunsarae: (laughs) Same. Oh my goodness. I can't believe you experienced that as well, especially with being too small for the plus size stores and being too big for the, the normal stores. I experienced that when I went to go get a suit for one of our recent galas last year. And it was just, it was, it was crazy.

[00:07:59] Charlie Ocean: And a lot of it is also a sensory experience. And so - yeah, yeah, yeah, right. I'd had someone tailor some of my favorite shirts. I told her, I was like, "These, are my favorite shirts. So basically, don't fuck this up." (laughs) Right, like, they cost me $60 each. I love them. Please don't fuck this up.

And she did. Oh my god, I was so pissed. By the third time I went up there, I don't know what she did - and I've never had this problem before, because I'll go to those places that sometimes do dry cleaning plus tailoring or whatever, right, and so I'll get tailoring there.

And I've never had an issue with those places, but this person, I don't know what was up with her. I think she chose violence that day or something, because like, I don't know what she did to the arms, but the way she took it in, and I really don't even need a lot taken off the end. The way she did it, she completely reconfigured it so that it was just, I don't know, clinging to my arms. It was a sensory nightmare.

And she was like, "I don't know what to tell you, this is what we do, this is how it's done." I'm like, "Okay, but then explain to me why you're the first person ever I'm having this issue with. I've had shirts like this tailored before and I haven't had this issue."

[00:09:06] Cielo Sunsarae: Oh my god. No, I completely relate to that; I don't know. It's just, it's another neurodivergent thing.

[00:09:13] Charlie Ocean: Yes.

[00:09:13] Cielo Sunsarae: I completely resonate with that. I mean, I deal with this every single day. I mean, sometimes I'll have clothes that I love it today and then next week, it's out, it's - I'm not wearing that again because of the texture or something.

I've been looking for gym clothes and I hate just going to the gym with sleeveless stuff. So I've recently been looking for tank tops, but again, there's the problem, they don't have things that are necessarily like your size, and that's something I dealt with a lot before I had top surgery.

Now I can fit the sizes from the store, thankfully, but now I had to deal with the texture, so I still can't shop online because even though, "Hey, that Nike tank top on the website looks amazing." I don't know what it feels like. It can say it's cotton. What kind? What mix? I need to feel it to understand it. So it's just, it's really hard.

[00:10:02] Charlie Ocean: That's so interesting that all of a sudden it's like, there's like a switch and you don't like the clothing anymore. Like, okay, so there's this thing in the neurodivergent community where we talk about - especially with folks who are autistic - safety foods.

[00:10:16] Cielo Sunsarae: Ahh.

[00:10:16] Charlie Ocean: We'll love something, have it all the time. I don't know, let's say it's oatmeal every morning. And then all of a sudden, one day it's just like -

[00:10:22] Cielo Sunsarae: I had oatmeal this morning. (both laugh)

[00:10:24] Charlie Ocean: I like apple cinnamon. And it's just, all of a sudden there's like a flip of the switch. And then all of a sudden it's like, "I can't even look at oatmeal right now" and like I can't have it for a long time.

So do you think that happens with clothing too, or do you think it's something where maybe you're just more present in your body at some point and then you have this awareness of, "Oh, actually this this doesn't feel good?"

[00:10:46] Cielo Sunsarae: I think for me personally, it's the latter where like I'm more present. Because a lot of clothes I'll be like, "This looks so good" and I know I'm gonna kill it. And I usually shop for like occasions instead of every day. I can stand wearing a, a nice ass outfit for like 30 minutes or an hour. But then in my closet that's all I have is occasion outfits. And then I have to force myself to wear it at around, at home and I'm like, "No, I'm not going to do this."

So it's just being honest with myself, with the textures. And then I ended up just walking around naked most of the time. (both laugh)

[00:11:20] Charlie Ocean: Hey, that's liberating. I'm here for it.

[00:11:23] Cielo Sunsarae: Yeah. I have a question. So - I don't know if this is too personal - but do you ever wear a packer sometimes?

[00:11:30] Charlie Ocean: I did initially just to see if it was something that felt authentic to me and then (laughs) something horribly embarrassing happened and then I just never fucked with it again.

You already know. You already know.

[00:11:44] Cielo Sunsarae: Did it fall out in the bathroom or something?

[00:11:46] Charlie Ocean: Okay, that was my worst fear. I, so, when I was first storytelling earlier in my speaking career and just sharing a lot more of my personal story versus, here's LGBTQ+ 101, right. I would bring in things like a used binder, a packer, and it's original packaging and stuff (laughs) so they didn't think I was - yeah.

So I'd like have that stuff being passed around or whatever; I'd have other little things too. In those days, I was trying it because, yeah, I thought this could be interesting. I mean, number one, I didn't have the right underwear for it because I was usually wearing boxer briefs that had a slit or whatever - but that doesn't mean they're meant to be holding packers.

Yeah, there was this one day, I, oh my gosh, I was in my bachelor's program - so going back to the speaking thing, I used to tell the students in the classes I'd talk to, like, my worst fear is that, I'm wearing my packer, and then all of a sudden when I'm peeing in the men's room, it's gonna flop out of my pants and roll over into the stall next to me. And I'm gonna have to be like, "Excuse me, can, can you hand me my penis back?" (laughs)

Like, that is not, like - first off, that breaks, like, all of the codes of the men's room. So, I - it's gone at that point, and I, I need to get the fuck out of there as quickly as I can. (laughs) So luckily, that didn't happen, but the second worst thing happened. I was walking from my car and I, oh my god - no warning - it just flops the fuck out, outside of the bottom of my shorts.

And I'm telling you, friend, I - never so quickly in my life have I grabbed a packer from the ground. I mean, it was the concrete, right, that was, yeah. And I - and there was like a trash can, like, six feet away from me. You bet your sweet ass, I just threw it away so quickly. No one saw anything; this didn't happen just now. (Cielo laughs)

And like, I never thought about it again, cause I was like, "No." So I don't even know if anyone saw, honestly. I hope not. No one yelled after me and was like, "What the hell was that pink thing that just fell out of you? Like - (both laugh)

[00:13:41] Cielo Sunsarae: Yeah. But I asked about that because in relation to the clothes, it's another texture, sensory thing, because some pants: the package just does not feel right in there. No matter how good your packing underwear is, because of the inseam, it just, it doesn't feel well. And I'm like, do guys just like, do they - like cis guys - do they just ignore it and get used to it and just stop feeling it at a point or are we - it's just it just feels weird.

[00:14:09] Charlie Ocean: So I've revisited, I've revisited this whole thing a few years ago, because I was like, "All right, it's covid everyone's home, maybe this is when I can get like an S to P, a stand to pee device." I still have it, but I haven't touched it in a long time, (Cielo laughs) cause like, basically ages ago, I just, I don't know if I read it on the internet, I don't know if someone's told me - cause you know, we always got to do all this research on this stuff - someone basically said, "You know, just chug a bunch of water or something and just practice in the shower."

And I was like, that makes sense. Because then my biggest fear there was, it's just going to trinkle down my leg, I'm going to be in a situation where I can't do anything about that, and then I'm not gonna be happy. But because of - this is getting raunchy now - because of how my, let's say bottom, is.

[00:14:57] Cielo Sunsarae: Uh huh.

[00:14:58] Charlie Ocean: And because of my plus-sizedness, it is hard - yeah, yeah, yeah - it is hard to find one that fits there, comfortably, and that yeah, I'm not having like a spilling issue or something. So I kept trying - but then the other part was that, biologically, I'm so used to sitting.

[00:15:18] Cielo Sunsarae: Mm-hmm.

[00:15:18] Charlie Ocean: I had a hard time peeing standing up.

[00:15:21] Cielo Sunsarae: Uh-huh. Just wouldn't come out.

[00:15:23] Charlie Ocean: Yeah, but I want to because I like hiking and stuff. I have so much fear and anxiety around bathrooms. I even will psych myself out, because when I had to start going to the men's room, because I knew that's how people are perceiving me, I don't want to be there. It's fucking gross. I don't feel comfortable.

[00:15:40] Cielo Sunsarae: Mm-hmm.

[00:15:41] Charlie Ocean: No thank you. I didn't have anyone else going with me. And most of my friends, especially at that time, were women.

[00:15:47] Cielo Sunsarae: Yeah.

[00:15:47] Charlie Ocean: And you know, women usually like to go to the bathroom with other women. So like, I used to have that camaraderie, but I don't have that anymore. I just want to get in and out. Oh my God. So then I have to wait for a stall, right. And so then in the meantime, there's a line forming behind me, but then there's these urinals available. And then there's usually someone that's like, "Oh, you know, like, there's urinals open." I'm like, "I know I need a stall." All of a sudden I become the unofficial usher and I'm just like -

[00:16:13] Cielo Sunsarae: Uh-huh.

[00:16:13] Charlie Ocean: Please go ahead. I don't need a urinal I need a stall and then like you can't have your phone out, right, because like you can't have people thinking you're trying to get like -

[00:16:22] Cielo Sunsarae: Yes.

[00:16:22] Charlie Ocean: A pic of their dick or something. And then like -

[00:16:24] Cielo Sunsarae: Oh, gosh.

[00:16:24] Charlie Ocean: Then you can't you don't know where the fuck to look cause to your left there's the mirrors, which means that you can see the asses of the people that are just like the urinal - it, and then the cracks.

[00:16:32] Cielo Sunsarae: Wait, do people actually keep their bare asses out when they pee sometimes? (Charlie laughs)

[00:16:36] Charlie Ocean: No. I mean, maybe in their homes. No, but you know what I mean? I don't want them thinking I'm like trying to check out their ass or be sneaky about looking through the mirror. And then, because here in the States, I don't know why the fuck we do this, the cracks in the stalls are so fucking wide.

So I don't even know where to look. And so I'm - I just end up looking silly as fuck, cause I don't know, I stare at the ground. I don't, I don't know what (Cielo laughs) - I don't, I don't know what to do with myself. (laughs) It's awful.

So if there's like another restroom somewhere else that I know I can walk to, I don't even care how far it is, I, anyway - obviously I have a lot of anxiety around the bathroom. (laughs) I don't have that in my own home, right. Like I don't have those issues in my home, but when I'm out, I still plan my days around where I'm going to be and how I'm going to pee safely, because yeah, it's just, it's a constant issue. I just don't feel comfortable.

I wish I could just not care and just do my thing, but -

[00:17:32] Cielo Sunsarae: I have things to say. So (Charlie laughs) one, I need to put you on, on how to pee without an STP, but I'll put it in that. (both laugh)

The first thing I was going to say, it goes back to the intersectionality issue. You know, as a fat trans person, there's nothing out there for us.

I think I've researched all the SCPs out there, and there is nothing for us plus-sized folks whose urethra sits further back. The cups are so shallow or they're narrow. There needs to be one that kind of looks like a pad, but then that would be uncomfortable. It does not work.

And then talk about the intersectionality as a Black trans person. There aren't colors out there for us.

[00:18:12] Charlie Ocean: Yeah.

[00:18:12] Cielo Sunsarae: Whether it's binders, prosthetics - it's either one brown color and then an immediately black color that's like black, black. And I'm just like, "No, you know, that's not realistic." There needs to be a diverse range of colors, which is -

[00:18:27] Charlie Ocean: Yes.

[00:18:28] Cielo Sunsarae: Shameless plug what we do with our gender grip tape.

[00:18:30] Charlie Ocean: Gender Grip, or gender affirming tape, is for tucking, packing, and binding.

[00:18:37] Cielo Sunsarae: We have like five, we're actually introducing a new color now. So we're gonna have six shade ranges that are gradual and not so drastic. Because we need more people thinking about intersectionality when they make products. So that was my most viewed.

[00:18:53] Charlie Ocean: Yeah, even band aids!

[00:18:54] Cielo Sunsarae: Yes!

[00:18:56] Charlie Ocean: I was talking with someone about it. He was saying that, yeah, when black band aids and other skin tone band aids started coming out, it was such a simple thing, but it was really touching to him, because it's just something he hadn't seen. And I know it's like, of all the things to fight for, but yes, that kind of stuff does make a difference, because it's just always whiteness. Whiteness is always pushed.

[00:19:20] Cielo Sunsarae: Mm-hmm.

[00:19:21] Charlie Ocean: But the other issue too is that I think people get stuck about the sizing. So if we're going back to the packers part, even the naming of how the sizes are. When I was doing the speaking stuff, I, Intentionally got the biggest size available just to be like, listen, I don't know if anyone naturally is this long when you're soft, (Cielo laughs) but like, how the fuck do you walk with this third leg in your pants? Because I will never put this in.

A lot of, let's say, cis men or people who have penises, they look smaller when they're soft, and that's not a bad thing.

[00:19:55] Cielo Sunsarae: Mm-hmm.

[00:19:56] Charlie Ocean: Then there just becomes this whole thing about how masculine you are based on like your size and all. So even just how we name the sizes of the packers and stuff to differentiate can cause, I want to say harm, because at a certain point, it's like, unless you're doing some like super exaggerated drag performance or whatever.

[00:20:13] Cielo Sunsarae: Yeah.

[00:20:14] Charlie Ocean: Why would you naturally want to walk around with that thing in your pants?

[00:20:17] Cielo Sunsarae: Oh my gosh. I'm on like a Reddit thread, it's called r/TransMascDicks. So it's just, (Charlie laughs) you should check, like, it's so funny. It's great. So like every time I open Reddit, it's just different types of like dicks out there, like different colors and shit. Some of them look real good, like the color matching. Like, I would think I'm in, like, a not safe for work thread, and I'm like, how did I get here?

[00:20:38] Charlie Ocean: Wait, so these aren't packers?

[00:20:40] Cielo Sunsarae: No, they're, they're packers. They're actually, like, they're packers. There's also another thread for, like, transmasc to show off their bottom growth, which is really cool.

I will always see, like, the skinniest, smallest, shortest person get like, the largest packer, and I'm like, "Y'all, stop lying in the comments, like, this, (Charlie laughs) babe, we have to be realistic here.'

[00:21:03] Charlie Ocean: Yeah. (Cielo laughs) It's exaggerated through porn.

[00:21:07] Cielo Sunsarae: Mm-hmm.

[00:21:08] Charlie Ocean: Which is also unfortunately how a lot of us here in the States are learning about sex, and that means we're not learning about things right. I don't know. I feel like I could go on about this forever, but I just really appreciate this conversation, because I love the stand to pee device I have, I just know that I would have to be a thinner person in order to use it cause my thighs are just too big. And so there isn't enough of a gap where I would need it to be for that device. And it's a shame.

But I will say I'm so proud, like it's come a long way over the years. And I'm really proud of all the like trans owned businesses that have been making their own and like the intentionality that goes into it. This is one of those situations where it kind of needs to be for us, by us, because when places and companies like Target and they don't always get things right. But I will say, I feel like they try very hard to show up with their allyship, so it was a big fucking deal when they started carrying binders and stuff like that to make it more accessible to people.

Because not everyone's also able to, you know, buy stuff off the internet, especially if they're younger, and I know that you've created whole guides around that, especially because of your Build-a-Queer Kits.

[00:22:21] Cielo Sunsarae: Yeah, I completely resonate with that as well. And I just also think about those who are not out yet, and who could have went to Target to just regularly shop and put a binder in their cart - or a Gap - and now that's not available because of people who are so offended by it.

Yeah, but we are working on that with our organization trying to make things more accessible and I believe there's always a way to make things accessible especially with the price. Like, especially with the gender grip tape, we could have easily charged an arm and a leg, but for $11 for like the same size roll you'll get anywhere else.

I mean, you can't beat it. And then we give it out for free as well. And then our community is already hella marginalized and we don't need other things to like make us feel even shittier about our situation.

[00:23:11] Charlie Ocean: Taking the Queer Trans Project from its beginnings in your closet to where it is now, how have community and faith played a crucial role in your journey, especially during challenging decisions?

[00:23:23] Cielo Sunsarae: I'll start off by saying, you know, we would literally not be where we are today. I mean, even just like being in community with my partner and my friends, them like supporting me always from the beginning, especially my partner.

I just want to like highlight just how important she is to like the process of the Queer Trans Project because there's been many, many, many nights and days where I just wanted to say, "Fuck it. QTP is done. That's it." And she's like, "Um, no, you're angry, go eat some like Cheez-Its and some shit, and, and then go lay down and we'll talk about it in two hours."

But from the beginning, she's always been there as a support system. She is really like the mastermind behind organizing everything, reaching out to people, so - like, she doesn't have to.

It's just like, being in community with one another, like, you believe in someone, you want the best for someone, and it's coming from, like, the purest of intentions.

Also, like, my faith community has also been there as a support system. I had just recently came out, and I was wearing, like, a Pride bracelet, and I was afraid to go there with my Pride bracelet, because, again, it's a religious group - that religious trauma - but I went. Nothing bad happened. It was a really amazing experience. I've been going to like that club since I think 2018 now and the pastor there is actually part of the community. That I didn't even know, which is like the craziest thing and she helps our organization get connections as well. So that's just another example of community.

And just, I don't know, like, there's so many examples. With the hotline, the amount of people who just reached out and recorded a quick message for the hotline to help our other members who are struggling, the amount of people who donated to our Build-a-Queer Kits, it's, it's just so fascinating. It's just amazing what community can do, and you don't need money; you just need to believe in somebody and support them.

[00:25:24] Charlie Ocean: So, as you just said, the newest program is the QTP Love Line. Can you share more about what that is and how it came to be?

[00:25:32] Cielo Sunsarae: It's a hotline with pre recorded messages of affirmation. So you can just call in when you're feeling down, you need to pick me up, or you just want to hear some love, and you can hear messages from people in our community, and allies, give motivational messages, messages of affirmation. And there's even an option to hear from spiritual leaders because, you know, that's an intersectional thing that's important to individuals.

It came to be because - there's two ways that it came to be. I had, a few years ago, heard about this hotline regarding something similar, it was called Pep Talk. I'm not sure if you've heard of it.

[00:26:12] Charlie Ocean: Is it the one with the kids?

[00:26:14] Cielo Sunsarae: Yeah. With the kindergarten teacher recorded messages with her kindergartners. That was so cute. And I'm like, "Oh my gosh, like, what if we had something similar?" Well, on top of that, I know not even just LGBTQ hotlines, but all like crisis hotlines, there's so much more need than there is capacity.

And I also have, like, first hand experience with this because my mom worked at 211. I've seen it in action. I've tried to call as well with friends, and I've been put on hold and stuff. And I'm just like, "Okay, but, like, what if I was trying to off myself, like, right now? Am I supposed to wait?" But it's just a combination of those both things.

So, like, you know, sometimes when you're in a crisis, you don't need a resolution in that moment. All you need to hear is that you're loved and you're cared for. And that's what these crisis counselors also do. So let's create a 24/7 hotline that people can call into whenever and have revolving messages. So those messages will change all the time. They won't just be repetitive. So people can just get what they need without having to wait in the queue.

I want it to be accessible to everyone as much as people know about 211 or the Trevor Project's hotline.

[00:27:29] Charlie Ocean: So your partner is deputy director.

[00:27:32] Cielo Sunsarae: Yeeah.

[00:27:33] Charlie Ocean: Now, we've just - (laughs) that was so fucking cute, (Cielo laughs) so what I'm thinking - and I think you've already started to paint this picture for us - but what is it like being in a dual relationship of being both a couple and then also working together? How do you make it work? Because it sounds like she's an anchoring presence for you when you need it.

[00:27:56] Cielo Sunsarae: Yeah, she's like that in the organization and just in my life. And the title of deputy director has been like a long time coming. It should have always been that, but I don't know why it wasn't. It's very well deserved.

I'd say like in the beginning it was a lot of tension for us. Just trying to figure things out. A lot of the information, like, people like to gatekeep, and we don't necessarily know a lot of power couples, in that sense, who work and date at the same time. So we had to figure it out on our own, but also going to therapy. And I say the main thing is just communicating and setting boundaries.

Again, we use the butt heads a lot, and we still do butt heads, like, I'm not gonna lie, because, again, I procrastinate a lot. I procrastinate a lot, and I apologize, and "I'm sorry, Alexis." (laughs) But -

[00:28:45] Charlie Ocean: Relatable.

[00:28:46] Cielo Sunsarae: I think that's the main source of like our tension is like just me not like getting shit done on time but that's gonna change this year because I have a therapist who specializes in like ADHD and things.

I think it's a beautiful thing. I've always like, growing up on TV, like you see like those power couples like, Cookie and Lucius off of "Empire." Oh that might not be a great example because they're kind of toxic, but like Jay Z and Beyonce (laughs) , for example. Like I don't know, they just get shit done together, and people highly respect them in their personal lives and in their work lives.

I think that's really hot. She's really awesome. She's there, like, since the beginning, she's helped me organize my program. She's there as moral support when I need it on the relationship level. She's done. She's like a badass. I just, I can't speak highly about, like, enough about her. She should be the executive director. Really. (both laugh)

[00:29:38] Charlie Ocean: Has it gotten easier now that y'all have an official office? So maybe there's boundaries just even in terms of not bringing the work home with you or something, or?

[00:29:50] Cielo Sunsarae: It has definitely gotten easier since we got an office. That's actually a great point to bring up. Because, again, we were working out of our closet. And then we progressed to getting a garage.

When it was in our closet, you know, we sleep together, so - but we always had a two bedroom apartment. Sometimes, you want your space and you want to sleep in your own room, but I have all these Build-a-Queer Kits spread out on my bed and my floor, so I can't even in my room, so I gotta like, go sleep with her.

When we have tension, or sometimes I'm working crazy hours. I just worked a full time job with Equality Florida, and then I don't switch off when it's at home. So whether it was in my closet or in my garage, I was there until like 3am, and I'm like, well, she's not getting any time, and we're not spending any couple times together, it's just us together with QT.

You have to be intentional with your time together as a couple, not just sitting there on your phones, relaxing after a long day.

[00:30:52] Charlie Ocean: Your board, and this is me making assumptions based on the appearances of the photos of folks and their listed pronouns - it seems incredibly diverse. When you were first assembling it and organizing it, how did you go about setting out to make sure it reflected the communities you serve?

[00:31:12] Cielo Sunsarae: Always, always, the Queer Trans Project will always be a BIPOC-led organization and a trans-led organization. And I say that because we know us best. And that was a founding pillar of why the organization was created.

I mean, I remember just going to organizations here in Jacksonville or at the national level for resources and their resources, they honestly sucked. They weren't the best. They were just doing it for money because the executive leadership does not truly understand and has never walked in those shoes to know what they need.

So I make sure, me and Alexis, we make sure that our board moving forward, and always, will accurately reflect the communities that we serve. We have Southeast Asian members, we have Latina members, Black members, we have white individuals as well, though they are the minority. We're trans led. I mean, it's just like, it's so amazing.

And it was really intentional, not in the fact that if you were a cis, white person, you were automatically denied; that's not what the case was at all. We welcomed all applications and I think this was a two to three month process, over, like, 40 hours of just going through all resumes, interviewing every single person, and just making sure that they were the right fit. It was making sure that you truly understand the work that we're doing, and you know what needs to get done to help serve our community.

[00:32:44] Charlie Ocean: A privilege I had when I pursued top surgery back in 2012 was that I was able to see results that reflected my skin type. And it was also cause there was a really great resource on it, I can't even remember the name right now.

[00:32:57] Cielo Sunsarae: Trans Bucket?

[00:32:58] Charlie Ocean: Yeah, thank you. It was really great because you got to see a lot of people's results, especially since not everyone wanted to post something like that publicly, like how a lot of people do now on TikTok or Instagram. And especially because of how it backfires where like, I don't know, it gets taken down for nudity or something. It's like, "Really?"

So when you decided top surgery would be part of your medical transition, were you able to see results of people who look like you and/or was that even an important factor at all?

[00:33:32] Cielo Sunsarae: It was one of probably the main factors. I don't know if a lot of people know this, but when I was starting my journey to get top surgery, oh that was like over a year process. I had originally decided I want top surgery in I think 2022, and I went through the stages with the therapist letter, the consultation, paying that fee.

And then after I paid it, I was like, wait a minute - I don't think I want this. Like, I think I'm like rushing into this. I still have not seen anybody who looks like me. I don't know what the hell I'm doing. Am I just doing this because I think that's what trans people are supposed to be doing? Like, let me take a step back.

So I took a step back for a year, and I did some more research. And I took a step back again because I fully didn't understand myself yet, and I didn't see other people reflected like me.

I know they have like Trans Bucket, they have Instagram, they have Facebook, they have TikTok, but I never saw a Black trans person. Or, if I did, they were like, again, a skinny Black trans person, so of course they're a little slimmer and they're not going to look like me. They don't necessarily have to deal with dog ears or anything like that.

Typically when individuals have breasts, they have that extra fat that's on the side, and that usually like spills out when they're wearing a bra. Even when you're not wearing a bra, it's just there. So dog ears can happen when you have top surgery and the surgeon isn't skilled enough to remove that extra fat on the side. So you'll have a flat chest, but you'll still have that fat on the side. They call it dog ears because it just flops, kind of like dog ears.

But going to a skilled surgeon who works with your body type and doesn't just want your money is very important. What my surgeon did is they took my scars all the way to the back. I'm not sure if you've seen it, I can show you if you're interested. Usually, it just goes to like your underarms, but it was so huge, it goes all the way back here. And I think that's why some people are still really shocked about it.

Or their tummies showing after top surgery; that was really hard. And one thing about me is that when I'm making decisions, even if I'm just deciding what the hell I want to eat, I like to consult people about it, and not just one person, but like, a conglomerate of people to see their perspectives. And I didn't have that when I was first deciding I wanted top surgery.

So I canceled that. I felt terrible that I canceled it, but I felt terrible that I was doing as well, which was a crazy feeling. But then when I finally solidified that I do want top surgery, that was after I started to immerse myself more in trying to find people who really looked like me, who were fat, Black, and trans, and nonbinary as well, because I also fluctuated between like, going flat completely or non-flat.

And it wasn't until I knew there were people like me, and they loved their body, it wasn't just a white thing that was going on, I knew that I wanted to do it for sure. And I also wanted to be that representation that I lacked, so by starting my TikTok journey, that helped me understand my feelings as well and let other people know that this is something that you can do.

And I think that's one of the main reasons, like, I blew up on TikTok is because people in our Black trans community, we are hesitant to talk about it because we're heavily ostracized and it's not "normal" for us yet. And I say that with air quotes because, like, it is normal, but we don't broadcast it because of the backlash.

Every video I've posted about me, like, transitioning, I've gotten hundreds of thousands of views. The highest viewed TikTok video I got was - I'm not sure if you've seen it yet - but me before and after top surgery, where I'm just wearing a tape. It got 32 million views, and I just had an outpouring of comments telling me, like, they never knew this was possible, and thanking me for letting them know that.

So yeah, it's been a journey, and it's still a journey, and I appreciate every step of the way, even of me taking a step back and being like, actually I'm not doing this anymore. And that was during a time where my mom was still trying to understand it all, so like, she was just holding her breath through the whole time. She was like, "My kid wants to cut his titties off, but now he doesn't, but now he does again."

[00:37:50] Charlie Ocean: When I was looking at the progress and post op results on your TikTok, there was a very clear difference for me. Because in the before footage, you just didn't seem comfortable or happy, but then like, in the final results, I mean, you were just beaming with pride. (Cielo laughs) So, you had like the biggest smile I think I'd ever seen on your face. Are you happy with your results, present day?

[00:38:16] Cielo Sunsarae: I'm very happy. I mean, oh my gosh, I love when people say that, because I didn't notice it until people started to point it out to me and I'm like, "Wait a minute, you're right!" Before top surgery, I was so convinced that I was so happy.

They took off 16 pounds. It was crazy, like, I was convinced even in just like the pictures that I was happy or at least had a neutral face on. I mean, even just my neutral face today is different. And I remember waking up from my surgery; I felt like this has always been my body. It didn't feel any different like I had surgery. It didn't hurt. I'm just so comfortable. I love myself. I can't express it enough.

I also want to put a note there that some individuals do experience different feelings post-op surgery, not necessarily due to regret, but because it's such a huge change and you have to relearn loving your body. Especially, as a fat trans person, you have to look down and now all you see is like your stomach, so you have to work through that dysmorphia there. But you are so beautiful; you are perfect in every way.

[00:39:20] Charlie Ocean: Yeah, it's a mindfuck.

[00:39:23] Cielo Sunsarae: Uh-huh.

[00:39:23] Charlie Ocean: And in my case, I was able to see my results the very next day, and I was able to shower the very next day, but that's not when you want to see it, right? Because drains, bruising, blood, dried, and red, you know, all of it. And so it wasn't the best.

But yeah, when you're used to seeing yourself every day, and you have gradual changes, like, getting wrinkles or freckles because of the sun or whatever, you know, it can be harder to notice those differences over time because you see yourself probably every day. But then all of a sudden, yeah, when you have like a major change, like haircut, or I don't know if you shaved off all of your beard or you get top surgery, (laughs) right, these can be major changes and it can be a mindfuck.

And yeah, it took me a while to get used to it. And yeah, to learn to get to know my body again and learn to love this new version of it. And in my case, because it was a more minimal procedure, because I had a smaller chest, I don't have as much scarring. I mean, you can still tell I had something happening, but I don't have the, I don't know, I almost want to say the scarring that looks like eyes or something. I don't know.

Yeah. Where it's basically just a half circle or something like under the chest, under each breast. So like, I don't have that. I have scars around my nipples and then I have, I don't know, two little microscopic, or something, dots or whatever, because of how they did it.

But I'm curious, so if someone looked, they wouldn't assume I've had top surgery - again, it just looks like maybe something had happened and I had some sort of surgery on my chest - but in your case, and that of a lot of folks who get top surgery, there's these very traditional scars that you're used to seeing. And I guess I'm curious: are you proud of your scars? Or do you wish that they weren't as prominent? I know it's different for everybody.

[00:41:14] Cielo Sunsarae: Oh, I love my scars. I love scars in general. They tell a story and I'm so excited for one day when like a kid comes up to me or especially like my kids. And they're like, "Mommy, what is that?" And I explain to them my gender journey. It just feels nice to like rub on, or like my partner rubs my chest, I'm like, "Yeah!" (Charlie laughs) I love it.

I haven't been clocked because of my chest. Like I actually want to, I want someone to come up to me and be like, "Hey, what are those scars on your chest?" So it can be like a learning lesson, because I mean, I'm always here to like educate somebody and I would prefer them to come to me instead of someone who would get offended or harmed from it, which is perfectly fine for them to do because that's their journey.

I would love to be approached; to be able to explain it to someone.

[00:42:00] Charlie Ocean: Fox News has written articles about you, among other places, I'm sure. (Cielo Laughs) Yeah, I hear you laughing.

[00:42:06] Cielo Sunsarae: I love the pause before you said it. (laughs)

[00:42:09] Charlie Ocean: Yeah. Cause I was like, "Am I going to go here? Yeah. I think we need to go here." (Cielo laughs)

Being featured on platforms like Fox News can be intense and bring about unwanted attention. So, how have these experiences shaped your advocacy and presence in the LGBTQ+ community? And how do you protect your peace so that it doesn't stop you from doing the work that you're doing and from being yourself and being so vulnerable with that?

[00:42:39] Cielo Sunsarae: That's a great question, thank you. I love these questions so much.

Oh my goodness. I guess it's made us more aware of what's out there. I'm still bewildered to this day about how they even found us, because we didn't have that many followers; we were a micro account. So for them to just like - what kind of time do you have on your hand?

[00:43:00] Charlie Ocean: A lot.

[00:43:00] Cielo Sunsarae: I just want to know how they came. (both laugh)

[00:43:01] Charlie Ocean: They just like have scouts they send out, yeah.

[00:43:06] Cielo Sunsarae: You either are getting paid a lot of money to do this, or you're not getting paid enough and you really want a promotion. It's gotta be one of the two. (laughs) Yeah, when that first happened, we were getting a lot of nasty anti-trans individuals reaching out to us via email, leaving nasty and voicemails, and comments.

And we were more focused on our community seeing that information, because we know that we were able to handle that information because we have a support system within each other and with our therapists. And we know that's coming from, like, a place of bigotry, but for our younger individuals that we serve, they don't need to see that.

So we had to work on our security measures. That was the main thing that changed in our advocacy, so like, we had to change who can comment on our posts and things like that. It becomes a truly safe place, because I think a lot of people forget that being a safe place isn't just for like physical places, it needs to be a safe place online as well, and that flipped that switch for us to think about that. I think that's the main way that our advocacy has changed as far as our organization.

Me personally, in my TikTok account, respectfully, I don't give a fuck what you think. When they say, "All press is good press," they truly mean it. Because after Fox News wrote all those articles about us, I can't tell you how many people stepped up to donate to us and how many partnerships that led to. So like respectfully, thank you Fox News. I love you. (both laugh) Like thank you.

But one thing I did learn is not everybody from the press is your friend. Because that happened because someone had called us from like, I think Epic Times, Epoch Times, posing as a pro-trans individual. I think they had completely revamped their Twitter and their bio and everything to pose. Because usually when you do that, you search up the person to make sure they're okay.

So they were like deep in it.

[00:44:51] Charlie Ocean: Right.

[00:44:51] Cielo Sunsarae: But I had completely sat on the phone with them for like hours, telling them about our organization and who we serve. Then they wrote that article about us, and completely ghosted us, and I'm like, "Wait, I still have your phone number and your address and things, so like, do you really want to go there?"

But , everybody's not your friend. People who reach out to us for press, they have to jump through barriers to like, reach out to us.

And you have to be vetted as well, because another time I spoke to someone here from Jacksonville, a Jacksonville news station, about a transgender individual taking off their top pre-surgery, supposedly, allegedly, during a lifeguard exam. And they twisted my words around - even though it was probably like an hour, thirty minute interview - and they took two seconds of what I said.

Basically, I said that children don't sexualize breasts, adults do. And I said, "As a result, love society, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah." But all they said was, "Children don't sexualize breasts." And that's all they took from that, and it blew up. And I'm just like, "Y'all have got to be fucking kidding me right now." It was crazy.

So, security measures, and also, if you're talking to press, you need to know what to say, like, you run that interview, and I think that's what celebrities are really good at. You'll notice that sometimes an interviewer asks a question and the celebrity doesn't directly answer it. They got that shit down to a T, and it's for a good reason.

[00:46:12] Charlie Ocean: Oh yeah, they get that from politicians. (laughs)

[00:46:14] Cielo Sunsarae: Yeah, it's for good reason. And that's one thing that we've incorporated. But again, as far as like my TikTok platform, I really don't give a fuck what you're going to say.

I'm still going to be me. You ain't never going to change me. I have lived as inauthentically as I could for the first 21 years of my life, and it's not going to happen again.

(begin musical PSA interlude, electronic style)

[00:46:33] Charlie Ocean: If you want to support a creator, don't click on links to the haters.

Whether Google, bing, or DuckDuckGo, if you want to give the haters a big blow. Part of how the algorhythms work, is if you get curious and do a search.

The more you click on the opinion or news piece, the higher in the search engine, it will increase.

So if you want to help a person protect their peace, don't do the search, just cease.

So just don't do that, and don't clap back.

Seriously, it also bumps the comments.

So if you want to help a person protect their peace, don't do the search, just cease. (End of musical PSA)

What's one allyship tip you'd like everyone listening to consider?

[00:47:45] Cielo Sunsarae: Creating change comes from the roots, and it doesn't come from small pockets of organizers working against each other. Community truly makes a difference, and it's why we've gotten here today.

Allyship is a Verb is a community, and it's a great example. We really need to come together the way that our ancestors used to, like Malcolm X and Martin Luther King, the way they created change, was because they had one representative coming together and that word spread like wildfire.

And we need a leader like that to step up today to help create change. So let's band together y'all.

[00:48:26] Charlie Ocean: Can we band together to agree that they have one of the cutest laughs? Seriously though, I'm going to say it at least, I believe they have one of the cutest laughs. (laughs)

Thank you so much for being a guest on the podcast. I think this was a long time coming and I'm so grateful that we were able to finally make it happen.

And again, I'm so proud of you and your organization and everything y'all do. So happy to hear that y'all are this amazing power couple who are figuring things out and making changes as you go, so things can be more smooth amongst yourselves and the organization. Thank you so much for your vulnerability and everything that you shared.

Again, I can't tell you enough how proud I am of you and QTP. I can't wait to see where it continues to go and grow.

That said, before we dive into the final three self-reflection questions, I wanted to offer some transparency. I'm not 100 percent sure there's going to be a season 4 of Allyship is a Verb, here's why: this is an indie production, and I've been very fortunate that, to date, I've mostly been able to cover the funds in order to pay for all the software, for my lovely transcriptionist, my kick ass audio engineer, I couldn't do this without them, I truly couldn't. And each season cost me over $3, 000.

It's been really hurting me financially, but I've been doing that because I'm dedicated to the production value. I mean, I'm super proud of our four award nominations, and who knows, maybe someday we'll get a win, but even just being nominated has been incredibly humbling, and I'm so fucking grateful, because yeah, I know we're an awesome team who puts a lot into this.

And while I've been applying for scholarships, and grants, and I've been trying to work out sponsorships, it just hasn't really been working out in a way that's been sustainable. And while we had the Indiegogo campaign - and that was really great, and definitely helped me to be able to finish out this season - it's just not enough, because I find myself still struggling to get the funding needed to do this at the quality I want to do it at, and I need more help.

I really need to be able to hire an assistant producer who can help to take some of the workload, because working 20 hours every episode is just not sustainable for me anymore.

Ever since a few years back, I figured out that I'm ADHD and autistic, I hit this huge burnout wall, and I'm not able to produce at levels I did previously. Now, I was never able to do it, it was never sustainable for me. (laughs) But now, I have to really face that and do something about it and make changes in my life so that it is more sustainable.

So, I again want to thank everyone who's ever bought merch, donated monthly, donated one time, anytime you've shared the podcast, any of that, it is so appreciated. And if there's anyone out there who has any connections (laughs) to any grants, scholarships, sponsorships, that we might be able to explore, I am all ears.

Because I really want to continue to make this work and I love this community and I have a lot more plans and ideas where I want us to continue to go, but I need help and that's why I'm letting y'all know now.

So we do still have some time because this season wraps up at the end of May, but again I just thought it was really important to be transparent about this, as soon as possible, because I really need the help.

And for whatever it's worth, I never thought I was going to be making a lot of money off of this podcast. Quite the contrary, I knew that it would end up being a big financial expense. However, I need it to be sustainable; that's what I'm looking for. And I want to grow the team. So, thanks for listening.

And now here are the final three self-reflection questions:

4. Who in my life has the cutest laugh or smile? Have I told them that lately?

5. Is there something that doesn't come in my skin tone that I wish did?

6. Who is a leader I admire? Present day. Why?

Visit Allyship is a IsAVm for any resources and a full transcript of the episode.

And remember, sometimes allyship means being inspired by our ancestors and current leaders to create change.