[00:00:00] Chris Angel Murphy: Well, hello there. My name is Chris Angel and my pronouns are they/them. Welcome to Allyship is a Verb, the LGBTQ+ podcast that explores and humanizes practicing allyship for the LGBTQ+ community and beyond!

[00:00:37] Cody Daigle-Orians: Hi, my name is Cody Daigle-Orians. My pronouns are he/they.

[00:00:42] Chris Angel Murphy: Mistakes were made (singing, laughs) . I can't sing, I'm gonna tell you why in a second. So because I was recovering from COVID and I was much deeper in it, I forgot to thank two people who were donating to the podcast. Oh my gosh. I am smooshing my face- you can't see it, but I am so sorry that I forgot to do this on the last episode.

However, you know what I gotta do. You know what time it is. Thank you, Katie! Katie is a new monthly supporter and I appreciate you, friend. And Paige has also been a monthly supporter and made another donation, so- thank you, Paige! Y'all seriously rock and I couldn't do this without you, so thank you again.

Okay. Let's just get this out of the way now. Recording this, I was recovering from COVID. I'm STILL recovering from COVID. This is my first time and hopefully my last, but the new variants going around are awful, and in my case, it's lingering over two weeks later. Although most days, I am feeling a bit better. If I overdo it, I pay for it in fatigue big time for the days to come. I'm even double boosted and going to get boosted a third time, once cleared to do so. Please keep masking. Please keep getting boosted. Please continue to be careful out there.

Now, you may know Cody; they run Ace Dad Advice, an online asexuality education project. His goal is to create empowering and encouraging online content aimed at young people and those questioning their sexuality so folks can live their best ace life. He's got a Patreon you can support, resources on his website, and a book dropping early 2023 that we'll be talking about a bit. They're even working on a second book and the first one isn't even out yet! Absolutely wild.

Although I don't share this often, I am demisexual, and seeing their content gives me so much joy. Cody's got such a calming presence about him and his background in education shows. So if you've been questioning yourself or want to learn more about this incredibly diverse community, please consider following them on your platform of choice. And be sure to grab the first book, too. For those who are interested, the book is called "I Am Ace: Advice on Living Your Best Asexual Life" and it'll be available January 19th, 2023.

And now, here are three self-reflection questions. Be sure to stick around after our convo for three more:

1. What do I know about the ace community or identity?

2. Do I know or follow anyone who is part of the ace community?

3. Do I think it's possible for ace folks to be in polyamorous relationships?

Here's our conversation.

Oh God, I'm already nervous, like, talking to you. Okay.

[00:04:16] Cody Daigle-Orians: No, this is gonna be fun.

[00:04:18] Chris Angel Murphy: No, it, it is, but like I fangirl over certain people and it's embarrassing, but that's just where I'm at with you, so I'm just embracing it so I can- yeah, be honest about that.

Okay. You are asexual and queer. What does that intersection mean to you?

[00:04:37] Cody Daigle-Orians: At this particular point in my life, in my mid-forties, it means like liberation and authenticity. It is the most authentic combination of identities that I've inhabited in my, my four plus decades. So it feels like a very comfortable home. Both experiences have really informed so much of who I am, and what I do, and what I make in the world now. So they're, they're everything to me.

[00:05:04] Chris Angel Murphy: You're also polyamorous and you recently had some changes in your life. Would you feel comfortable sharing about what's been going on with you lately?

[00:05:15] Cody Daigle-Orians: Yes. So recently I, my husband Neil and I have relocated from our home in Connecticut, where we were for the last eight years, eight-nine years, to Ohio, because Neil got a job at the University of Cincinnati as an assistant professor. That trip has coincided with some changes in our personal lives too because Neil and I are, are polyamorous and we both have other romantic partners. This move to Ohio has allowed us to bring all four members of our intentional family together in one state, which we weren't before.

We habitate in two households. So I live with my partner Scott in Columbus, where he is a professor, and Neil and his partner Dan, are living in Cincinnati, where Neil is embarking on his journey as a professor. So we've gone from one home to two homes. We refer to them affectionately as the Cincinnati and Columbus offices, (Chris Angel laughs) because we are a (both laugh) we're a big, queer conglomerate here in Ohio.

It's been a real big change for all four of us. We're all living in proximity to each other. Neil and I are navigating living in two separate places. We're cohabitating with new partners, but it's been an exciting adventure.

[00:06:28] Chris Angel Murphy: I would say. I feel like that's a lot of coordination on, on both households’ parts, right?Just-

[00:06:37] Cody Daigle-Orians: Yes, co- coordination and conversation. It takes a lot of talking to coordinate everyone's feelings and making sure that we're like- everyone is being taken care of and, and everyone is sort of getting the time that they want. I have been finally coerced into having a Google calendar, which I resisted forever, but now it's absolutely necessary for me to have.

[00:07:02] Chris Angel Murphy: Are you telling me you have office hours?

[00:07:07] Cody Daigle-Orians: (both laugh) No.

[00:07:07] Chris Angel Murphy: I'm just leaning into the, the jokes now.

[00:07:10] Cody Daigle-Orians: Part of that is just to sort of navigate all of our personal schedules and personal lives, but I'm also now working from home and, and doing freelance things. So the Google calendar's now the only thing that keeps me organized, or it means somewhat organized (Chris Angel laughs).

But yeah, it, it's been a challenge of sort of coordinating but in, in a really positive way. It has sort of forced all of us to be more upfront about our needs with each other, and we are weirdly more communicative now about what we need from everyone else because we're, we're now forced to. We have to really work at creating time to nurture all of the relationships involved.

We have to really be attentive to who needs what, when, and where. And there have been some challenges about navigating this new setup. I feel like there have been many positive things, too, that have brought really like rich things to all the relationships that are woven into our little family unit.

[00:08:03] Chris Angel Murphy: What would you say are some of those positives?

[00:08:05] Cody Daigle-Orians: It's great that we get two cities to play around in and enjoy. Like that's fun. There, there's an expanded sense of adventure for all of us because we, we- there are now two places for us to explore and learn and share with each other. But I certainly think it has really upped our communication game a lot, particularly around things like expressing our need for attention, expressing our need for, for sort of nurturing the, the individual space we have with one or more of us.

Neil and I had been together for a very long time, and in long-term relationships, it's very easy to sort of fall into patterns and just get very comfortable and not pay attention quite as much because you're in your routines. Now that our routines are shattered, we've had to be more thoughtful and conscientious about caring for each other and demonstrating that care and connection across you know, a 90-minute drive. And, and that has been really good.

Neil and I have gone on more fun dates now that we aren't living in the same place because we don't get to spend as much time together. That's fun. It used to be like, "We're just gonna go to dinner and a bookstore." And that was like a hot night out on a (Chris Angel laughs) on a weekend for us. But now our dates are more thoughtful and they're more purposeful and that has been really nice.

[00:09:17] Chris Angel Murphy: I imagine that's been quite an adjustment, just like having spent so much time together and then going into this new living arrangement.

[00:09:24] Cody Daigle-Orians: Yeah, like this whole transition has been challenging on so many levels, and we've asked of all of us to accept an enormous amount of change in different corners of our lives, all in one place. I think we are variably good at handling change. Some of us are on the, on the poor end. I am on the poor end of handling change where it just gets kind of overwhelming.

Thankfully, everyone is very kind and patient as we figure out what being in Ohio, embarking on new career paths, embarking on new relationship structures, and new depths of relationships, what that all means for us. It's been, it's been good.

[00:10:08] Chris Angel Murphy: Well, I'm glad cuz that's what you're in now (both laugh).

[00:10:13] Cody Daigle-Orians: Right? Could you imagine if it had been terrible?

[00:10:15] Chris Angel Murphy: Oh my gosh. Yeah. Well, I mean, there'd be even more changes which sounds scary, but no, that's great. I'm glad that that's working out. What would you say are some of the unique aspects of being both ace and polyam?

[00:10:29] Cody Daigle-Orians: Because there are a lot of, sort of cultural assumptions that people who are not polyamorous have about people who are polyamorous- the, the idea that that is a means just to sort of acquire more partners and you have this wild, hot existence that is like constantly swinging from some chandelier someplace with a new person (Chris Angel laughs).

[00:10:51] Chris Angel Murphy: Cue Sia in the background. Yep.

[00:10:54] Cody Daigle-Orians: (laughs) You know, and that is just like not how it- one, that's just not the reality for polyamorous people. But as someone who is ace where although I am, I do identify as sex-favorable, sex doesn't really occupy a prioritized place in my life. When people find out that I am ace and polyamorous, it- the really, it's just sort of like that confused math meme is what I just sort of imagine (Chris Angel laughs) is going on with everyone immediately.

[00:11:18] Chris Angel Murphy: Yeah.

[00:11:19] Cody Daigle-Orians: They're just trying to figure out how those two things can exist together, and it immediately makes all of my relationships very confusing to them. It makes my existence confusing to them. That is sometimes sort of really challenging, like they just don't get how they exist together. Makes perfect sense to me, because polyamory is not simply about sexual relationships, but it is about like nurturing all kinds of emotional and romantic connections that you want to have.

And really even before I came out as ace, I understood myself as wanting to have multiple relationships and multiple people to be connected to in my life. So, I was polyam before I was ace. They exist rather comfortably for me. Polyamory was always there, and asexuality has just added a new kind of lens, and a new dimension to it.

[00:12:10] Chris Angel Murphy: Something that I know has been a conversation that I've seen on the internet is the vocabulary, or I guess the wording choice, or the term choice for thinking about polyamory. Because I know there's some folks who say they practice "ethical non-monogamy" and then there's the debate around like, well, why do we have to throw "ethical" in front of it? Cuz it's not inherently unethical, right? It's not like cheating or something. Like this is knowingly, everyone is going into this, you know, consensually and everything.

So I guess I'm curious, and, and maybe you don't even have an answer for this, I don't know, but is there a reason why you choose to say "polyamorous" over like, "non-monogamy," for example?

[00:12:53] Cody Daigle-Orians: Well for, for me, the desire to have multiple people is about having multiple relationships. It is about exploring multiple- for me, romantic relationships. I am certainly a romantic attraction-having person. It is for me about a desire to have multiple romantic partners and multiple committed partners. That is where it exists for me. So to me, like, "non-monogamy" doesn't describe that so much. Whereas "polyamory" does. Polyamory, to me, describes wanting to have, like what I have. I have, I have multiple long-term, primary partners.

So that language works for me and I don't like "ethical non-monogamy" either. I always sort of lean towards "consensual non-monogamy", because that feels like the most important part. It's really- it's really making sure that everybody is on-board and understands what's happening is the most important part of making that work.

I know for other couples where the primary thing that you can have more of are just sort of sexual connections, but other kinds of emotional ones are not permitted. That's not the reality for us and our relationships. So, polyamory fits better.

[00:13:59] Chris Angel Murphy: One of the things I love about your Instagram is that you take the time to answer each question that comes in seriously, honestly, and with great compassion. And in my head, you're like a concerned dad, just trying to reassure a kiddo that they're okay, you love them, and that there's nothing wrong with them. Like that's the vibe I get, you know? Except that the kiddos are a huge audience of internet strangers who ask you all sorts of questions about asexuality, relationships, et cetera. I'm curious what inspires you to be that gentle, reassuring voice?

[00:14:34] Cody Daigle-Orians: That sort of dad vibe has followed me around kind of my entire life. That's always been a role that I've fallen into. I spent a large part of the first part of my professional life as an educator. So, I spent a lot of time in the classroom and I was a teacher. And when I stopped being a classroom teacher, I moved into being a teaching artist because theater is my background.

So, I've always been in places of teaching and creating spaces where- helping people grow. And that's even a role I played in my friend’s group too. So "dad" is always some part of the way people kind of refer to me. I'd be referred to it like as "horror dad" for a while, or just like the dad vibe is something that I'm good at and it comes naturally.

So, "Ace Dad" is just sort of an extension of that with a very specific framework. So it's being that older, ace, dad-like mentor that doesn't exist so much in the community. You know, when I, when I first started doing the project, I never really saw other ace creators that were my age or even remotely my age. All of the creators were very young. So, part of the thing that inspired the creation of the project was recognizing that there was maybe a space in that online community and online conversation for someone who was an older person, like an adult, who was in that mentor-educator space.

[00:15:58] Chris Angel Murphy: Thinking about the ace community being a subgrouping under the broader LGBTQ+ umbrella: would you say, in your experience and that of those you speak with, are ace folks generally embraced and supported present-day, within the queer community? Or would you say that there's any tensions or things that could be better about the experience?

[00:16:21] Cody Daigle-Orians: I mean, I certainly think there's still a great amount of tension. When I do get a lot of questions from young people, I often get questions about being reassured that being ace is part of the community because they are encountering people from the other parts of the community telling them, "Well, no, ace isn't queer. You're not queer. If you're ace, you have to be something else, or you have to experience this kind of discrimination in order to call yourself queer. Like if you're not having sex, you can't be queer." All of those things are sort of leveled at them.

To me, that's wildly wrong. Being ace is absolutely part of the queer experience. Even if you are not actively having sex, you are having an experience that is outside of cisheteronormative structures, and that kind of puts us all under the same umbrella. While we may move through the oppression side or the discrimination side differently, and may experience that in different degrees, we're still fundamentally having an outsider experience, and that makes us queer.

That message quite hasn't gotten to everybody in the LGBTQ community yet. But you know, we're, we're getting there. And it makes sense- the ace community still is underrepresented. It isn't visible as much, and that's slowly changing. We're certainly seeing more of it now and in the, the next few years there's certainly, there are more books coming out, there are more stories that are including ace characters, so that seems to be changing. But yeah, that tension certainly does exist. It is improving slowly. But it is still a challenge for ace folks to find a place inside traditional queer spaces.

[00:17:59] Chris Angel Murphy: I'm not trying to start any fights, and I'm not trying to, like, snitch on anyone; however, would you say there's certain subgroupings of the broader queer community that perpetuate that kind of harm of trying to erase the ace community and, and its people?

[00:18:17] Cody Daigle-Orians: I'm really speaking just from my experience of moving through the queer community. When I was 18, I came out as gay, so I've navigated queer space as a gay man for my whole adult life. After coming out as ace, that was the segment of the community where I found the most resistance to who I was, who I newly discovered myself to be.

I had a lot of gay men who immediately rejected my aceness as being valid, or- very early on I had someone actually sort of say, "So, oh, so, so like, you're not, you're not gay anymore because you're ace. So that means like you're-" basically saying like, assuming that I was now straight, I guess, I don't know what I would be. That aceness somehow erased the fact that I had (laughs) had like a multiple boyfriends.

That has been the part of the community that I've most interacted with, but it certainly feels like that's the place where the most gatekeepy resistance comes from. And it makes sense to me because, I mean, I feel like cis, gay men are the farthest up the ladder in terms of proximity to mainstream privilege. You wanna protect that as much as you possibly can, I guess. And so anybody coming up to sort of disrupt that needs to be put back in their place. Not trying to start a fight with the gays. (laughs)

[00:19:37] Chris Angel Murphy: No. No. But they already started it, so if we finish it…

[00:19:41] Cody Daigle-Orians: Yeah, fair.

[00:19:42] Chris Angel Murphy: I think it's important to talk about these things because, I mean, what you've shared has echoed a lot of my experiences, specifically with gay men in our community.

There are the same tired arguments against asexuality, which fuel the same myths and misconceptions we've been hearing for years and years and years now. So I'm curious, what do you think it will take to liberate our society at large from being so hypersexualized? Not saying that sex is bad or wrong, but just being so hypersexualized. Or, like what do you think needs to change for people to stop fighting asexuality as a valid identity and community?

[00:20:25] Cody Daigle-Orians: I mean, I think fundamentally, there is attacking the companion ideas of compulsory sexuality and amatonormativity. One, recognizing that those things exist, that we do have these normative cultural forces that are telling us that sex and romance are essential to being a full, complete human. Without it, you are somehow broken or somehow less-than, or even subhuman.

If we can allow the pushback against those ideas to exist in the world and you know, introduce those ideas for kids. Introduce those ideas as like, they're- the possibilities don't have to include those things from as young as possible. That opens the door for understanding that asexuality is not like an absence of a sexual identity or an absence or a brokenness; that it is just another way in which one can exist in the world.

From very young, we are taught that the goal is to find the capital "O" One. That is going to be the person that excites us sexually is going to excite us romantically and our soulmate in the perfect companion for us. That isn't true for every person and it's not required for every person to live a full, complete, authentic life. Creating space where you can present another view to those ideas would be really helpful in, in doing that.

[00:21:46] Chris Angel Murphy: When you're thinking about your relationship structures, what inspires you to decide, "Okay, I wanna bring another partner into my life"? Is there like something- you know, not saying anyone's lacking anything cuz, right, every relationship brings different things to the table and to both people- but thinking about that, yeah, when- like what's your inspiration when you're seeking partners? Or is it different for each one?

[00:22:17] Cody Daigle-Orians: Yeah, it's, it is sort of different for each one. I don't think that we actively seek out, you know- "It is now time for us to go out and find a person to bring into the family." We are open to going out on dates with other folks. So, you know, as a connection forms, the beautiful thing about the way our relationship is set up is that we can follow that connection as far as that connection would like to go. If we do want to turn that into a relationship that is central and part of the stable unit, we can do that and we're open to it.

Scott and Dan were both people that that was where we felt we wanted to go with them. And thankfully, Neil and I were both supportive of the other to allow that to happen. I would worry if we sort of felt like, "Okay, now we gotta go find someone because X reason." That would seem unfair to the person and also, I don't know, that seems like the wrong reason to find someone new. But for us it was, it was very much about, "Oh, this person brings something really interesting to my life that I want to pursue and develop." we are allowed to do that.

[00:23:27] Chris Angel Murphy: So at the time of recording this National Coming Out Day was yesterday, on October 11th. As you've already mentioned, you came out as gay at 18 in the early nineties and understood yourself as gay for, you know, at least 20 years after until you would eventually learn about asexuality.

(laughs) I've been struggling to figure out how to ask this question, so it's gonna be kind of messy. But, I'm operating under the assumption that, especially for that time, there would be even more ace stigma and far less understanding and education than we have today. So I'm curious, how you think your life would be different if you had known about ace sooner, and maybe if that was like the identity you had led with versus starting with the gay community? Again, that is a hot mess of a question.

[00:24:15] Cody Daigle-Orians: I've been asked something similar in other situations, and I don't even know how to- to imagine coming out as ace first. 1994 was when I came out, and at the time I came out, when I came out to my parents and told them I was gay. The first thing my mom said was that she was very afraid because she didn't want me to die of AIDS. Like that's where we sort of were: that being gay meant that you were going to die.

And at the time, there was no, no place in the world that I can think of that I could have gone to find information about asexuality. None of that would exist until many, many years later. There was no representation in the culture. Like, I don't even know where I could have discovered anything about it. And I don't even know if at that time there would've been anything coherent enough to call it like an "ace identity". I don't even know how to imagine that possibility.

A part of me, knowing what I know now, wishes that I could’ve because I certainly spent 20 years feeling like a bad, broken, gay. My gay journey has been feeling like I'm just bad at it, and that's not good for anybody and their self-esteem. I wish, knowing what I know now, I could have found asexuality first. I know that right now, people still feel very alone when they realize they're ace because the community is still hard to find.

In 1994 in South Louisiana, I would've just felt like the only ace on earth and without any access to anything. And I, I sort of think that might be worse than the experience I had. Because at least as a "bad gay," quote unquote, I still had people; and that is something, I guess.

[00:26:03] Chris Angel Murphy: Do you like Billy Eilish?

[00:26:05] Cody Daigle-Orians: I'm old (both laugh)

[00:26:08] Chris Angel Murphy: So like, Billy Eilish has this like hit song, "Bad Guy." it's like "I'm the bad guy," but like I just have a remix- for anyone who knows what I'm talking about- it's like, it's just a remix, but "I'm the Bad Gay." It's, it's a whole thing (both laugh) we'll, we'll listen to it after- after the episode.

[00:26:24] Cody Daigle-Orians: Perfect. Cuz yes, "The Bad Gay" that'd be my jam.

[00:26:27] Chris Angel Murphy: Yeah. Yeah. So there, there's a whole remix going on in my head. Maybe we'll drop a single? You know, just remix it and get Billy's permission. I'm sure. I'm sure she'll be cool with it.

[00:26:36] Cody Daigle-Orians: Let's do it.

[00:26:37] Chris Angel Murphy: Yes. Anyway, that's, that's just what's going on in my head. You know, and I, I hate to, to think that you had felt like, a broken, bad gay for so long. And honestly, when I think about- even if someone had decided, let's say, to go to a sex therapist, it's been my experience and understanding that a lot of them don't know about the ace community. And they're quick to wanna remedy with either sexual exercises that are not gonna work or try to get some sort of medical intervention in place cuz it's like, "Oh, you know, maybe we need to check your hormone levels and stuff.”

And all this, like, operating under the assumption that like something's wrong with you because you're not a sexual being. It just hurts my soul to know that even if you went to go get some more support professionally, it's probably not good. It would probably reinforce some of the same harm that we see from larger society.

[00:27:37] Cody Daigle-Orians: Yeah, it would probably would've done more harm than good, quite honestly.

[00:27:41] Chris Angel Murphy: Was there anything, if you feel comfortable sharing, that was instrumental in helping you? Like being honest, I still deal with my own internalized homophobia, queerphobia, bi-phobia (Cody laughs) , transphobia- all of it, all of the phobias, right? Like all of that internalized, like, hot garbage is still there. It's not that I haven't done any work to address it, but like, I'd be lying if I didn't say that there were still traces of that, that I'm still pushing through each day.

And a lot of it is also just cuz of the continuous messaging we keep seeing everywhere. I mean, certainly, you look at the landscape politically right now, just thinking about all the legislation that's been moving forward in the States over the past couple of years and it's, it's hard not to get caught in that. But I guess I'm curious, has there been anything in particular for you that's been helpful in shifting your mindset from being the bad, broken gay to the badass Ace Dad you are today? (laughs)

[00:28:37] Cody Daigle-Orians: Well, I know this isn't accessible to everyone but thankfully it was for me: therapy was a huge help for me. And I lucked out, when I came out as ace I, I found a really, really wonderful therapist who was queer-friendly, who was polyamory friendly, and understood asexuality, and didn't treat it like it was a problem to be solved. And I had this wonderful person to- I spent about six months working with him- to sort through some of that stuff to sort of get me to a place where I could then move forward and be a, a more like, full ace version of myself.

Like, that was enormously helpful for me. I still am not great at it. I still struggle a ton with the 20-plus years of feeling kind of lousy about myself as a queer person. Sometimes I wish I was more like Ace Dad, because he does seem to have it all together and I, I envy that many days. But in the beginning, therapy was, was hugely helpful.

And actually, now the project, the Ace Dad Advice Project, is really, really helpful. Getting a chance to be in community with so many people who share my experience and who share the challenges that I've had. I learn from them as they're learning stuff from me. Very supportive and mutually comforting community. So, it's made me a better ace guy by doing it.

[00:30:02] Chris Angel Murphy: If someone's listening to this and maybe they're thinking about pursuing therapy, especially cuz they're ace and they could use some support and maybe there's some things they wanna work through related to that, what kind of questions maybe did you ask to screen therapists?

Because I have a whole monologue I'm not gonna take us on today, about how, like, what is LGBTQ+ affirming, versus friendly, versus allied? When you look at, you know, all these therapist’s websites and everything, all the directories and all that, like there's no standard for any of those. So I guess, were there certain questions that maybe you asked or certain questions you think would be helpful of someone screening a potential therapist for, again support as an ace person?

[00:30:49] Cody Daigle-Orians: In the beginning of my therapy sessions dealing with asexuality, I did ask, "What do you know about asexuality and or how do you understand it?" And that was really helpful. Instead of providing an answer for them to either affirm or negate, making them explain what they know and how they understand it is really helpful. Once you understand the way that they're thinking about your aceness, it'll help you understand whether or not they're gonna be someone who will help you or not.

Thankfully, he had the right answer and that was a, a great place to go. That's probably generally how I've approached new therapists that I've worked with, is having them tell me how they perceive certain parts of my life and my experience. So that I'm hearing from them without my assistance what they're understanding is of my lived experience.

[00:31:43] Chris Angel Murphy: Is there anything in your lifetime that's been positive that you've been surprised to see that, like, you didn't think you would see in your lifetime with the LGBTQ+ community broadly?

[00:31:55] Cody Daigle-Orians: Certainly same-sex marriage. When I was growing up in the, in Louisiana, that was not even remotely a thing I could even imagine. And even once I had gotten a bit older, I was with- and, or the earlier part of my life, I was with a partner for seven years and, you know, like, we couldn't entertain the idea of being married. There was not even a possibility that that could exist. And to now live in a place where I am married to my husband, that's radically wild to me.

And even though now the institution falls short, because I now have these other two partners that I'm like, "Oh, well, where's the protection for these guys?"

[00:32:36] Chris Angel Murphy: Something I couldn't talk about with Cody during our conversation because I couldn't remember the details, was that I had briefly read that New York City's eviction court concluded that polyamorous relationships are entitled to the same sort of legal protection given to two-person relationships.

The case is West 49th Street, LLC v O'Neill, and it revolves around three individuals. Anderson held the lease but was married to another man who lived at another address. After Anderson passed away, the building's owner contended O'Neill had no right to renew the lease since he was just a quote-unquote roommate of Anderson's and not a non-traditional family member.

If you wanna read more about it, I'll include it on the episode page. This is absolutely fascinating to me, especially given Cody sharing with us earlier about his living situation with his partners. And this just happened in early October.

[00:33:43] Cody Daigle-Orians: But yeah, that certainly was a thing that I could not have imagined as a, as a young me, that that would even be possible.

But I don't think it's, like, the most important thing for queer people. Cause not every queer person wants to get married, and they're things that are way more important, like, you know, making sure that people can have a home and making sure that people's jobs are safe and they can't get fired for being queer.

But that certainly was a moment that I thought, "Wow." Like I never would've imagined that to be possible when I first came out.

[00:34:11] Chris Angel Murphy: Is there anything you hope you'll see in your lifetime?

[00:34:15] Cody Daigle-Orians: I would love to see us find some sort of like, legal recognition for intentional families and larger units. Because they certainly exist and they are there- and not even just in a polyamorous sense- but I, I think about like queer platonic relationships and those other sorts of intentional queer families that exist that are not necessarily romantic. That also deserve protection too; because family is family. Marriage doesn't make a family. That would be, I think, something that would be really powerful that I would love to see happen. Because I think it would certainly protect more people and protect the very specific families that they create.

[00:34:55] Chris Angel Murphy: I agree. Cuz I think, you know, there's been so many non-traditional relationships that people have had to keep up appearances. So I think of like beards, right? I mean, you and I literally have beards on our faces, and I think of someone being a beard for someone else. So I think about like lesbian women who married gay men because they needed access to healthcare, let's say, or wanted to be safe at a time that didn't feel safe, and just have some sort of, yeah, security and create family in, in those ways. I mean, there's so many different, yeah, family structures and everything. I don't know- and then cuz, I'm silly and I, I was thinking of like Costco memberships, like as marriage, right?

[00:35:36] Cody Daigle-Orians: Yes.

[00:35:37] Chris Angel Murphy: And like all the deep discounts you get and I was just thinking like you, and then like, all four of you as a unit. I was like, "Damn, they'd get some good discounts, you know, like some good health insurance and like-" (laughs) I don't know.

[00:35:48] Cody Daigle-Orians: That would be fantastic. Yeah, because- but in this move we've had to navigate some of those things and like- so that, like the limits of our marriage have been brought like sharply into focus because now we're in two households.

So, just the question of like, "How will everyone get health insurance?" Has been a huge thing. Like this university would- you, you have to be married in order to be on your health insurance. This one doesn't. So like, how do we then navigate how we are connected so that everybody is okay? It shouldn't be that complicated to protect the people that you are building a world with. It should be easier.

[00:36:24] Chris Angel Murphy: You're a self-proclaimed "raging introvert" (laughs), and you've shared with me that social interactions aren't your favorite thing in the world. However, you've been building community online as Ace Dad Advice, and, like, your Instagram alone has, you know, 21,000 followers. Is online community building different, from say, hanging out with a few friends in person or meeting new people at a social event? Like, where does that all land for you? Just thinking about social interactions.

[00:36:56] Cody Daigle-Orians: Yeah, I find hanging out with one new person infinitely scarier than being in front of, like, the online audience that I exist in front of every day. They feel completely different to me. Not that I think that Ace Dad is inauthentic in any way, because it is a very authentic version of who I am as a person, and I'm, I'm showing up as myself.

But like actually dealing with a human being in person; I'm just me, just me showing up, and I have to just be myself for that time with that person, and that is infinitely scary to me. You know, online there is some degree of curation that I can do, and I can be more thoughtful. I can be thoughtful about my words and I can not say a stupid thing- or try not to say a stupid thing. You know, I, I can decide what we'll be talking about that day. So I feel, like, smart and confident about it.

I just find like the real world very hard and-

[00:37:48] Chris Angel Murphy: Yes. (both laugh)

[00:37:49] Cody Daigle-Orians: Like real humans; it's hard, and it's scary. But that's kind of always been- I've done that my whole life as I was, I've been a teacher, I was an actor for a while. I would much prefer to just be in a hoodie, curled up in a chair reading a book by myself in the dark. But my professional life has always been out in front of a lot of people, sharing and, and being. I don't understand why that's the case, but that's what happens.

[00:38:15] Chris Angel Murphy: When I was scrolling through your Twitter last night for shits and giggles, you know, I came across a meme post, I guess, where, it was just something about like how many friends you had, and that like gay men either have like 7,221 friends or like one. And you were like, "How about no friends?" And I was like, "Oh. (Both laugh) No friends at all. Okay."

I mean, and with like, you know, the relationships you have plus like your relationship with yourself and just thinking about everything you're building as Ace Dad, I get it. But I'm curious for any- maybe you do have some friends in your life- so operating under that assumption. (both laugh)

[00:38:53] Cody Daigle-Orians: I do.

[00:38:53] Chris Angel Murphy: They're like, (Cody laughs) "Thanks, Cody." Would you say that anyone in your personal life who knows you and everything that you just shared with us, are they surprised by your online presence as Ace Dad? How do people in your personal life react to Ace Dad?

[00:39:08] Cody Daigle-Orians: I think it makes sense to the people that are closest to me. I certainly feel like Ace Dad Advice is an expression of the educator in me and the nurturer in me, that like, those two things are strongly tied together in that project. That is somebody that I am in my personal life with the people closest to me.

So, I think what is maybe surprising is maybe the size of the audience for it. That's probably the surprising part. Not so much that I'm doing it, but that it has the response that it has- that surprises me, too. I don't even know why I'm pretending, like, it doesn't surprise me. I'm completely still shocked all the time that this is even a thing that is happening to me most of the time.

[00:39:52] Chris Angel Murphy: Oh, you're like a whole brand now. So for people not aware: you started Ace Dad Advice in March of 2021, and within just a few months, for June Pride month, you were already (laughs) on like Good Morning America. Yeah, what do you think helped you to gain such traction across so many social platforms? Because basically, on almost all of them, you have around 20,000, and then on TikTok it, like, jumps up to over 100,000. So like, yeah, what do you think has been instrumental as, as part of all of your success with this project?

[00:40:28] Cody Daigle-Orians: I, and maybe I'm completely wrong, but I think part of it is that there is, I can't think of another ace content creator that looks like me or has my particular experience. There is that sort of ability to stand out in the crowd because I am older. I, I look like, you know, a mall Santa, like that's a whole vibe (Chris Angel laughs) that is not present in the-(Cody laughs) is not present in the community otherwise.

And I think combining that with creating content that is about answering the basic questions, answering the practical questions of navigating aceness- which I didn't see a lot when I was scouring content. You know, not so much participating in the discourse, which like- nothing wrong with the discourse, I'm glad that it, it's great that it exists- but people also have, like, practical concerns about moving through their lives and understanding who they are.

And I think creating content that was aimed at that and it was also empowering content that was aiming to say like, "Hey, you know, you're all right, who you are is fine. You should be proud of who you are." That kind of, I hate to say that word uplifting because that always feels like a gross word sometimes, but it, it is that. All of those things combined were just nowhere else in the ace content space. So people responded to it.

And I'm finding, too, that I'm not just getting ace folks now responding to it, but you know, people who have ace folks in their lives have a lot to learn from it and find it very useful. Teachers, parents, a lot of other people are finding the content very approachable. So, it's, it's asexuality in a really approachable way, so everybody can get in on it. And look, it's warm and fuzzy, I guess? That really helps, I think. I, I don't know. I find Ace Dad warm and fuzzy. Like, I wish he would come to my house sometimes and like, like, make me feel better about myself when I'm having a tough day. (Chris Angel laughs)

[00:42:25] Chris Angel Murphy: My brain just went 20 different places. So the mall Santa thing, let's start there. I love that cuz you have a Funko Pop, or whatever, toy behind you right now as we're talking, right?

[00:42:37] Cody Daigle-Orians: Yeah.

[00:42:38] Chris Angel Murphy: I thought of you as mall Santa, but as a Funko Pop (Cody laughs) like, toy and like instead of the red as we've come to expect with Santa, but it's like purple and then you and all of your bearded, glassed, you know, glory.

[00:42:52] Cody Daigle-Orians: I love it.

[00:42:52] Chris Angel Murphy: If we could make that as a toy, I'm telling you, I would be one of the first people to buy it. So like, manifesting that right now. I know it's a little late in the year for production.

[00:43:02] Cody Daigle-Orians: I don't know. I'm so here for that.

[00:43:04] Chris Angel Murphy: I want, I want this (laughs) I just want this.

Something else I was thinking about as you're sharing, you know, we're so much more accessible to people than ever before. And unfortunately, especially here in the States, a lot of our privacy, we have to opt-out of things cuz we're just automatically opted in.

Do you worry much about your safety or security? You know, like, are those conversations you've had to have with your partners? Thinking also about boundaries you've put in place to protect your peace? I know I think you said it was on Twitter that you don't reply to DMs or something like that.

And, yeah, I mean there's some people that might not like what you say, maybe they don't like one of your dad jokes- that are brilliant by the way- so like screw them. (Cody laughs) But like, yeah, just thinking about how much attention you have, and how much more attention you are you're gonna get, and all of it well deserved and hopefully good attention, there's always those few people, right, that just- yeah. Are there, like, really tricky conversations you've had to have with your partners?

[00:44:07] Cody Daigle-Orians: In terms of my partners and our little family, we do talk about our lives because I do think being able to sort of model successful relationships is a helpful thing. They know that I talk about them; they know that I write about them. I'm certainly not telling people every detail about it, and I'm not letting you know where I live. So, there is a certain comfort that we all have with, like, sharing parts of our lives and sharing the fact of our lives together in- on the internet in front of everyone.

I do worry about getting found by one of those like horrible sites that just sort of makes a queer person out to be the downfall of Western civilization and tells everybody to go attack them. Like I'm- that, that's certainly scary to me. Particularly because I am an adult of a certain age in a position speaking mostly to young people. And, you know, as, as like the resurgence of that, like, "queer people are predators on young people" stereotype and myth have resurfaced again- more powerfully; that freaks me out.

But (sighs) I don't know I- any day that I start to get really freaked out about that, I also look at all the people that are getting something positive out of it, and that balances out the concern; that balances out the fear that something bad could happen. Because it's, I don't wanna say necessary, but it's an incredibly useful tool for so many people. If I can be super helpful just by being visible, then that's fine. We can do that, and we'll deal with the negative repercussion if it surfaces. It's helpful, so we'll keep doing it.

[00:45:43] Chris Angel Murphy: Do you get recognized at all, like wandering around where you live now or where you lived previously?

[00:45:49] Cody Daigle-Orians: Thankfully, no. That would be, oh, that would be very weird. I don't know (Chris Angel laughs) how I would feel about that. My husband teaches, and some of his students are aware of me, which freaks him out. Like they're like, "Oh, you're married to Ace Dad." And that, (Chris Angel laughs) I get a little perverse joy in that. (Chris Angel laughs) And also you have to go out into the world (Chris Angel laughs) to get recognized by people. And I don't do that (Cody laughs). Crazy tough.

[00:46:15] Chris Angel Murphy: Right. Oh goodness. Although you're taking on the roles of content creator and educator, not everyone who's part of the community wants to talk about being LGBTQ+ all of the time. So,what kinds of things do you wish people asked you about or tried to connect with you over instead?

[00:46:30] Cody Daigle-Orians: I am always happy to talk about horror. Horror is my jam. I live and breathe that stuff. So like, this is October. This is my prime time. I'm at my full powers this month. (Chris Angel laughs) Yeah, horror film, horror fiction; I love that stuff. That is always a conversation I'm willing to have about movies that you've seen. Movies I like. I have very strong opinions about the Halloween franchise, like very, very strong opinions about it.

And also books. I love to talk about books. I spent three years working in a library doing programming. One of the big joys of my life getting to do that for that amount of time. I'm always happy to hear someone talk about a book that they're into or to talk about books that I like. I will recommend books all day based on things you're looking for. Books in horror are the go-to’s for me. I can talk about them forever.

[00:47:23] Chris Angel Murphy: I love that. The Ace Dad library. We were bound to get here, but you have a book coming out in January of 2023. I think it comes out on the 19th.

[00:47:33] Cody Daigle-Orians: It does.

[00:47:34] Chris Angel Murphy: And it's called "I Am Ace: Advice on Living Your Best Asexual Life." What would you like folks to know about it?

[00:47:40] Cody Daigle-Orians: Everything that you like about Ace Dad Advice the project, exists in the book. The opportunity arose to turn all of that work into a book, and what I basically did was wrote the book that I wish I had when I was 18 and trying to figure myself out. I think it is a very approachable book that takes you from the very first question, which is, "What is asexuality?" All the way through, "What does it mean to be ace in the world?" And, "How does asexuality bump up against other forces in the world?" It takes you through the whole process.

I would like to think that people are going to use the book as as sort of, you know, like the handbook in your back pocket. So anytime, like, an ace problem arises, you can like crack it open to the chapter and head to that book. (Chris Angel laughs) That'd be like, I would love that.

[00:48:27] Chris Angel Murphy: They like summon you. (both laugh)

[00:48:29] Cody Daigle-Orians: Yeah, right. They cracked the book, and there I am.

[00:48:30] Chris Angel Murphy: Mm-hmm.

[00:48:31] Cody Daigle-Orians: I'm really excited about it. It is one of the first YA non-fiction books to focus on asexuality in the way that it does. So I'm very excited that that's going to be out in the world and accessible to people. Excited and nervous, because like, people are gonna read the book. That's terrifying. However, that's what happens. (laughs)

[00:48:53] Chris Angel Murphy: I think it's incredible. And you know, you're so accessible, too, because, I mean, obviously that book is coming out. You've got your YouTube channel; you've got TikTok, you've got Instagram. I mean, there's just so many ways for people to find you and to be able to access this information that, like you said, wasn't something you could easily access back in, like, the early nineties.

Or even like, yeah, when the internet was first like starting and we all got those damn AOL discs all the time with a hundred hours of free AOL and- oh my God, I, I'm so glad I no longer have like a blanket that I have to like just hug my computer tower with because, you know, the dial-up modem is just so freaking loud when it's dialing in. (Cody laughs)

My dad and grandma tried to complain that I was always on that damn thing, but I was like, "Our spam calls got greatly reduced, didn't they?"

[00:49:41] Cody Daigle-Orians: Exactly.

[00:49:42] Chris Angel Murphy: My grandma would get like up, like 20 damn times a day to answer the landline, which no one has anymore, basically.

[00:49:49] Cody Daigle-Orians: AOL was my- that was where I was hanging out first. So, you know the, "You've got mail" is in my brain.

[00:49:55] Chris Angel Murphy: " You've got mail." (indicating AOL sound clip)

[00:49:56] Cody Daigle-Orians: Exactly. Yeah, and then, like, you could be fancy, and you could change it with your special sound. Yeah, those were the days.

[00:50:03] Chris Angel Murphy: Yeah. Yeah. But I really lived for like the passive-aggressive away messages with like Comic Sans and bright colors and like (Cody laughs) passive-aggressive lyrics of my teen angst.

[00:50:13] Cody Daigle-Orians: Oh. (sighs)

[00:50:13] Chris Angel Murphy: Anyway, we've mentioned a lot about how, you know, you first came out when you were 18 to other people. Let's you know, imagine you are 18-year-old Cody, and you came across Ace Dad Advice today. What do you think you would ask?

[00:50:28] Cody Daigle-Orians: Ooo.

[00:50:30] Chris Angel Murphy: Oh shit. (both laugh)

[00:50:30] Cody Daigle-Orians: I mean, I feel like I would probably have all of the questions that I normally get asked. Because this was the major thing that I had to work through when I did come out; I would ask him for reassurance that I wasn't broken. That was profoundly what I felt at 18, and I felt that for a really long time. And that would be the first thing that I would want someone, wiser and kinder, to rid me of- is that idea that I was broken. So that,-that would be the first thing. And then maybe like, where do you get all your T-shirts? That would be, that would be the next one. (Both laugh)

[00:51:06] Chris Angel Murphy: Absolutely. In that same theme, do you think Baby Cody would be proud of who you are today?

[00:51:12] Cody Daigle-Orians: I, I certainly hope so. Yeah, I think so. Adult Cody's pretty proud of where, like, I've, I've ended up. I think he would be proud and also probably surprised. I think he'd be surprised that I would be so in the world and available to so many people. I hope so.

[00:51:32] Chris Angel Murphy: The whole Ace Dad Advice is like a project in itself, but you have a lot of wings of it. Because not even just the social media, you also have a Patreon that you manage, and I think I even saw you recently announced something about podcasts? But thinking about all of the like slices of it, is there, like, a piece of it that you're particularly proud of?

[00:51:53] Cody Daigle-Orians: The book. Writing has been part of my life forever, and I've spent the majority of my writing life writing plays. And I'm really proud of them, they're wonderful, but there was always a nagging thing, like, “I'm gonna write a book one day.” And so this opportunity was not just a, like, a really cool opportunity to expand this project that I'm doing now that I'm proud of, but it was like to fulfill a lifelong nagging thing on the bucket list to do, like to, to finally write a book. And it happened. And so like that's, I'm, I'm enormously proud of it.

And I also like, too, that when all the social media platforms fall away, and we're not doing this anymore, the book will still be in a library somewhere or on somebody's shelf. And that is cool and hopefully helping whoever grabs that book from that shelf.

[00:52:42] Chris Angel Murphy: Who do you think the book is best for? Is it folks who think that they're part of the community? Would it be for teachers? Like, who all do you think would get a lot out of grabbing a copy of your book?

[00:52:55] Cody Daigle-Orians: It is most directly aimed at young people who think they might be ace or at the start of that journey. Like, that's who I was really 100% writing for. But I think anybody who has any questions about what asexuality is and what it means to be an ace person, and how an ace person moves through the world will find answers or find some enlightenment in the book somewhere. It's mostly for those young kids out there who- who think that this might be them, and this- it is to help them figure that out.

[00:53:30] Chris Angel Murphy: Do you ever get contacted by people who are closer to your age or older about being ace?

[00:53:35] Cody Daigle-Orians: All the time. That's been a big surprise for me. I mean, I do often get people who write and say, "I found you! And I've realized that I'm ace.” For a while, Neil even called me "the Ace Whisperer" because there were several people in our, like social circles, who came out as ace once I started the project who were closer to my age. And so yeah, the work, even though it's aimed at young people, it's resonating with all of them, too. It's nice to see someone who is your own age talking about ace stuff. It makes you feel less, less alone.

[00:54:05] Chris Angel Murphy: I imagine you have a lot of pride in all of the identities that you carry. The more I come to find out about myself even- you know, I just turned 35 not that long ago, and I'm late-diagnosed ADHD and autistic, and learning that about myself more recently has just kind of thrown a little bit of a wrench in my life. I'd say in a good way because it's helped me understand myself a lot better, and I've had my own journeys of feeling broken in different ways. But I've also been feeling like, "Shit, this is another thing I have to explain to people. This is another..” like ableism. Ableism is alive and well, and I bump up against it so much more now.

So like, I guess, has there ever been a point in your life where you're just like, "Shit, like, this is just like another thing now I need to advocate for or explain to people." Cause I'm just thinking, you know, being ace is beautiful, being polyamorous is beautiful. Are there ever moments where you're like, working through some of the obstacles that,you know you might have to face, or yet you're more likely to face?

[00:55:05] Cody Daigle-Orians: When I first recognized that I was ace, one of my first responses was, "Oh shit, now this. Like, this too? Why does it have to be so hard? Couldn't you gimme a break, universe?" That's still something that I struggle with sometimes. That's still a feeling that I have every now and again, where it just, it just feels really overwhelming to move through the world in such a complicated way. Sometimes it does feel like too much. And early on, it absolutely felt like just one more thing that made the world just too complicated. That's less now, thankfully. I've gotten better about managing that, and it doesn't happen quite as much lately. But that was certainly where I was at the beginning.

[00:55:47] Chris Angel Murphy: Everyone likes to be supported by different actions, and I'm curious to know: what are some actions that make you feel supported or seen, validated, or, like, understood by other people?

[00:56:00] Cody Daigle-Orians: I really love when the people in my life are, are doing homework on their own. I love when people in my world say, "Hey, I read this thing. I wanted to know what you thought about it. I thought this was really interesting. I, I read this ace writer." Or, "Hey, I'm thinking about picking up Angela Chen's book. What do you think about that?" That feels really validating. It feels like they are interested in learning more about what it is to move through the world in my body and my mind, and that's lovely. That always feels affirming to me.

[00:56:30] Chris Angel Murphy: What's one allyship tip you'd like for everyone listening to consider?

[00:56:34] Cody Daigle-Orians: Approach things with curiosity and not just when someone introduces their identity to you, but all the time. In learning about what it means for them to live in their identity; for what it means for that identity to exist in the world. Whatever someone shares with you about that: approach that with curiosity, respond with curiosity. It not only allows you space to learn, but it is affirming, and allows that person to share more of their light and their self with you. And that's a lovely exchange.

[00:57:04] Cody Daigle-Orians: This was a lovely conversation. You got me at the end though. Those last two you- mmm, yeah. (laughs)

[00:57:10] Chris Angel Murphy: I knew what I was doing. (laughs)

[00:57:11] Cody Daigle-Orians: Yeah, that was good.

[00:57:13] Chris Angel Murphy: (Chris Angel laughs) I knew what I was doing.

[00:57:14] Cody Daigle-Orians: Good. Good, good.

[00:57:15] Chris Angel Murphy: Thank you.

I love Cody. I look forward to all of their content on Instagram because that's the main place I scroll, and my goodness, what a delightful human. Cody, thank you for coming on and having a conversation with me. And allowing me to fangirl for a bit, and not being weird about it. That was very kind and compassionate of you.

So, now our final three self-reflection questions:

4. Thinking about the communities I'm a part of, are any of them hypersexualized? How do I feel about that?

5. Are there any identities I carry that people consider to be invalid?

6. What are some specific ways I can support or offer support to people who are ace?

Visit AllyshipIsAVerb.com for any resources and a full transcript of the episode. And remember, sometimes allyship means approaching things with curiosity.