[00:17] Chris Angel Murphy
Well, hello there. My name is Chris Angel and my pronouns are they/them. Welcome to Allyship is a Verb, the LGBTQ+ podcast that explores and humanizes practicing allyship for the LGBTQ+ community and beyond!

[00:33] Richard Follett
Hi, my name is Richard Follett and I use the pronouns of he and him.

[00:43] Chris Angel Murphy
Wow! This is the official kickoff of season two. Some of y'all reached out to me to let me know you missed having new episodes to listen to, which was incredibly sweet. So, thank you. I always appreciate hearing how the podcast and episode, or particular guest, moves you. I will say the break was nice so I could clear my head and have more time for me. Also, June was primed to be a really busy month because Pride Month tends to be really busy for folks doing LGBTQ+ training and consulting.

[01:22] Chris Angel Murphy
However, like right in the middle of it, I found myself having to go to the emergency room because I was an incredible amount of pain. And I'm just reminded why doing that kind of work is so important because pretty much everyone I interacted with didn't know how to deal with my transness. And even though I tried to advocate for myself and told them my name is Chris Angel, my pronouns are they/them, people just weren't honoring that. And when they had to ask me questions about medical stuff, it just got really messy. They didn't know how to deal with me. And it just made a situation that was already scary, and incredibly painful, emotionally so.

[02:04] Chris Angel Murphy
However, I will say that before I share more about today's guest, I now have six monthly supporters. What? [laughs] Thank you so much, you know what I have to do. So thank you, Danielle! And thank you, Paige!

[02:28] Chris Angel Murphy
This has been so amazing because it helps me pay for the software, my audio engineer, and transcriptionist. And you may also hear as a result, I've also been able to upgrade my gear. I'm sounding a lot better. My guests, on the other hand, that's always [laughs] debatable, depending on the equipment they have, but I sound okay. That's half of the podcast so, hopefully that helps things along. But seriously, thank you so much. And thank you to everyone who has reviewed or rated the podcast on Spotify, Apple, Podchaser. Seriously, thank you, thank you, thank you, because it really helps others decide if they want to listen to the podcast. So, thank you.

[03:17] Chris Angel Murphy
And okay, I left something out previously. For those of you wondering, yes, I will be okay. We think we know what's going on with my body now so I can get the support I need to feel better. It's going to be a long, hard road to recovery, but I will be okay. So thank you if that's something you were thinking about that I did not address when I was talking about that just a moment ago.

[03:40] Chris Angel Murphy
That said, I have the pleasure of introducing you to my dear friend, Richard. An acquaintance, turned Professor, turned friend, and now grandfather as part of my chosen family. I was grateful he was open to being on the podcast. He's so important to me that when I had my lavender ceremony to celebrate finishing grad school, he was one of my two special guests. The other was a teacher, turned lifelong friend, and now chosen family. I think I like collecting former teachers and professors that I've had, feel like, that's just a theme. [laughs] Not not a bad one to have, either.

[04:20] Chris Angel Murphy
And lastly, before I get into the self reflection questions to kick us off, as you'll recall, there are three in the beginning and three after. This episode is different from the usual conversations in that it's a little bit more biographical. And at times I am narrating almost like a documentary or something. It's just how this one turned out folks. So, hopefully it still piques your interest, but that's what you're going to be working with this time.

[04:49] Chris Angel Murphy
So let's go ahead and dive into the first three self reflection questions.

1. How old is the youngest person I know? The oldest?

2. Do I have people from various generations in my life?

3. Do I believe that people can be both gay and Christian?

And now the conversation/narrated biography [chuckles].

[05:22] Chris Angel Murphy
Yes. Perfect. All right. So you are white, a former professor of English, a former Marine, father of two children, happily divorced, cisgender, gay, and a Christian. Whew, that's a lot. So, I'm curious, what do all of those intersections mean to you?

[05:46] Richard Follett
Those intersections, some people don't think go together, but they do. We are authentic, real people. We are not stereotypes, we are not cookie cutters. And those all meld together. Each one of those intersections has shaped a portion of who I am. And one of the things that I am learning to do at the age of 74, going on 75 this year, is to be more and more open and more and more authentic. This is who I am, what you see is what you get. So that's how they meld together. They've all informed pieces of my life.

[06:21] Richard Follett
There's one painful piece and the painful piece is being the father of two children, in that I lost my children due to homophobia. After the divorce, I was happy with the divorce, my ex-wife was happy with the divorce because she's now married to the man she was loved- in love with in high school, and wanted to marry before me. But after X number of years, they drifted away and I lost contact with the children. So that's painful when I think about it. So mainly, I don't think about it. I was born in 1947. I was born in southwestern Michigan in a very small town. Fewer than 2,000 people, still fewer than 2,000 people. We had a blinking light uptown, we now have a stoplight, and [Chris Angel laughs] we have a left turn lane. That's big news in the weekly paper.

[07:08] Chris Angel Murphy
Oooh.

[07:08] Richard Follett
Yes. So in that context, one did not come out as gay. One did not even come out as homosexual, and especially in a small church, and I knew I was a gay boy at the age of four. And mother asked me later in life, how I knew that. Well, we had National Geographic on the coffee table. And I knew that, but I knew some reason "Do not say this." And so the church formed me and then as a sophomore in college, I realized I really need to put away the gay thoughts, gay fantasies, I had had some good experience in high school, a little in college. But I tried to pray the gay away, got married, was married for seven years. And that's how that shaped me.

[07:53] Chris Angel Murphy
In 2010, a social media campaign took off, which is better known as the It Gets Better Project. Folks from the LGBTQ+ community contributed videos, sharing their stories, and providing encouragement to young persons in the LGBTQ+ community. Although, it faced a lot of criticism, like, "Who does it get better for? And how? It doesn't just magically happen over time." On June 13, 2011, Richard uploaded his video to YouTube.

[08:26] Richard Follett
And in 1968, I did what the church and the psychiatric profession said to do, and that's get married.

[08:33] Chris Angel Murphy
Hearing that absolutely broke my heart. And it pains me to think that there are still people to this day, who think that you can just enter a heterosexual marriage, for example, and the "gay will go away". It doesn't work like that, folks.

[08:50] Chris Angel Murphy
How did you come to make peace with the intersections of being gay and Christian?

[08:56] Richard Follett
That's because of the Metropolitan Community Church. After the divorce, I'd done my Masters and then I was teaching high school. And then the divorce hit and I went back to Ann Arbor to go to college. I then went to the Metropolitan Community Church, which was started here in Los Angeles by Troy Perry in 1968, before the Stonewall Riots in 1969. The church for outcasts in the LGBTQ community. And it started with 12 people. So, I started going to the Metropolitan Community Church in Ann Arbor while I was doing my doctoral work, and I married my sexuality and my Christianity very much through that.

[09:35] Richard Follett
I had been thrown out of a heterosexual church in Miami, Florida for being gay. Actually, I wasn't totally thrown out. I wasn't totally thrown out. Let me just clarify that. It was the first Sunday service in November of 1978 or '79. I don't remember which, it was when Anita Bryant was on her "Save Our Children" campaign to save people against people like me, okay?

[10:00] Richard Follett
And I was directing the church choir. There were 35 in the choir, 300 in the congregation. The pastor interrupted the service at the offering time and said, "Now, Tuesday we have a vote coming up. And we can't take a position on candidates, but we can take a position on issues." And so he had the ushers come down the aisle, and they passed out Anita Bryant's hate literature of "Save Our Children". I had just finished the choir anthem, and I was sitting right behind him. And I thought, "Oh, my goodness, what do I do now?" Because that no vote on Tuesday is against me and my committee.

[10:35] Richard Follett
I said, "Pastor, I need to see you on Monday." He said, "Monday is my day off. I'll see you Tuesday morning." I said, "No, I need to see you on Monday. Very important. I have to see you before you vote." So he said, "Come see me at four o'clock Monday afternoon." So I did.

[10:48] Richard Follett
And I said, "When you vote on Tuesday against gay rights, you're voting against me." And he looked at me, he said, "Wait a minute. You're a Christian. You were married, you have two children, and you were a Lieutenant in the Marine Corps, how can you be gay?" And I said, "This is what God made me to be." And I said, "Why would you do that to the church? I know there were at least four other people in the church who are gay and lesbian." He said, "Well, now that you've mentioned it, now, there's seven of you". I said, "Why would you harm seven of us in front of 300 people and throw that?" "Well, because the Bible says...", I said, "That's your reading of the Bible. That's not the only read in the Bible."

[11:27] Richard Follett
Then he said, "Well, you can no longer be the choir director. However, we are having special weeknight services for the next 10 days. Would you stay for those?" And I looked at him and I thought, "Yeah, provided you don't tell and I don't tell". He said, "Well, I have to tell my wife, Jan". So, we went over to the house and had dinner with his wife and two daughters, as I recall. That next night, though, at the worship service, his wife was- she was the piano player. She was crying at the piano through the whole service. And so he had told her obviously.

[12:00] Richard Follett
The night after that the board members were looking at me as I was leading the music very strangely, just these weird looks like, "Who is this person?" So after service, the pastor and I stepped outside and I said, "Pastor, you know, the word 'covenant?' He said, "Covenant? That's an important word in religious studies." I said, "Did you tell the board?" He said, "Well, I had to". I said, "You broke the covenant. I kept the covenant. You will not see me again." He had told me I was still welcome to come to the church if I sat in the back five rows. And I was instructed, "You may not speak in the Sunday school class because you know too much and you challenge things".

[12:40] Chris Angel Murphy
At this point, Richard said, "Thank you very much" and started going to the Metropolitan Community Church.

[12:46] Richard Follett
Now, years later, that pastor's daughter came out as a lesbian.

[12:50] Chris Angel Murphy
She recently got in touch with Richard, and that's how he also found out that she had moved away from Florida.

[12:56] Richard Follett
Married her wife. The pastor was still having trouble, but the wife said to him, finally, "Do you want to lose our daughter totally over this issue? Make peace". I think the pastor finally came around somewhat, but it's hard when they get trapped into that religious mindset.

[13:13] Chris Angel Murphy
He was hired as an openly gay English professor in 1984 at Pierce Community College in Woodland Hills, California. This was only a few years after he completed his dissertation. His dissertation was groundbreaking for its time. After working on it from 1976 through '79, it was published in 1980.

[13:35] Richard Follett
The divorce happened in '75. In '76, I was teaching high school and I was really coming out as gay to myself, but teaching high school, it was very dangerous to be a gay person. And that just wasn't allowed. And so I realized I needed to get to a bigger city and I realized it would be safer to get a college position rather than the high school position.

[13:59] Richard Follett
In fact, mother said out of all that, "Well, you know, on college campuses, there are quite a few gay people." And the light bulb went off in my head, "okay, if there's gay [Chris Angel laughs] people on college campuses, I will go to a college campus and I will be safer." In fact, when I went to Miami Dade from the University of Michigan doing my doctoral work, Miami Dade with Anita Bryant and all, I was afraid to go, but my dissertation chair said, "Universities and college campuses are generally safe places."

[14:30] Chris Angel Murphy
Now it was time for Richard to pick his dissertation topic: Greek mythology or gay literature.

[14:37] Richard Follett
And what I did is I told my- because I was out to my folks at this time, I said, "I'm going to drive to Washington, D.C. and go to the Library of Congress. I'm going to pull open the old card catalogs, which many in your audience may not understand. [both laugh]

[14:50] Richard Follett
We used to have card catalogs, kids. I opened the drawer for Greek humanities; there were drawers, drawers of material. I opened the word for the word "gay." And I discovered John Gay was a musician who wrote a piece, okay, and opera or whatever. But there was very little gay. And so I thought, okay, "Drawers of material and just one- a few items here". So, I decided to write on teaching gay and lesbian literature.

[15:19] Richard Follett
However, I was in Miami, Florida with the Metropolitan Community Church down there. The lesbian women in Miami did not like the term gay and lesbian, or lesbian and gay, because they felt it was divisive. So, they felt gay was all inclusive, which in retrospect, I don't think it was. I still I didn't think at the time, but to accede to them, I just wrote on teaching Gay Literature and I included Lesbian Literature in the dissertation. It was approved in 1980 and to my knowledge and to my committee's knowledge, it was the first English department dissertation in the United States written using the "gay" word in the title. So I broke open the area. But I in retrospect, I should have insisted on gay and lesbian literature.

[16:10] Chris Angel Murphy
We then started talking about words he's reclaimed over the years.

[16:15] Richard Follett
The last word, Chris Angel, that I came around for myself was "queer." But I endorsed that fully now and that was from a former nun.

[16:25] Chris Angel Murphy
This was a lesbian friend of his he had met at work.

[16:29] Richard Follett
...and she said, Richard, "To the hetero community, we will always be 'queer,' meaning 'unusual,' 'oddball,' 'different.' Embrace it." So I have. I like it. I don't mind the word "fag" within the community with very close friends. I don't mind "Fag, get over yourself", "Queen. Stop it." Okay? In a joking, jocular manner. However, somebody from the outside says that, then there's fighting words. Does that make sense, okay?

[16:56] Chris Angel Murphy
Yeah.

[16:56] Richard Follett
Well, I- let me share with you when I reclaimed, "fag". I was on my way to Metropolitan Community Church in Miami, Florida. And so I was coming up the steps toward the church and these nice, big wooden oaken doors, to open those...

[17:10] Chris Angel
Four people were in a car and just happened to be driving by.

[17:14] Richard Follett
...and they go, "Hey, faggot! Faggot!" And I thought, "Oh, how did they know?" And I went in and I was very shaken up.

[17:22] Chris Angel Murphy
Luckily, someone he knew was already in the church.

[17:25] Richard Follett
He was at the piano and I went up and I was shaking. He said, "What happened?" I said, "Well, these guys called me 'faggot' out there and I was frightened."

[17:33] Richard Follett
He said, "Do what I do. Turn around and blow kisses and say thank you for noticing, if you feel safe." And I learned to do that, in a safe environment, I learned to do that to throw it back at them because they were trying to hurt me. And then I learned, Chris Angel, to go one step further. [laughs] I don't know where I came up with this. If I felt safe, I feel I'm in a safe environment: "Thank you for noticing. Are you interested?" At 74, I can be eccentric and I can laugh, too.

[18:05] Chris Angel Murphy
One of the things I admired about Richard when I was his student was that he was very transparent about being gay, which shocked me. He nonchalantly let us know on the first night of class that he was in the Gay Men's Chorus. Reason being that he was telling us about his schedule and how we could get in touch with him if we needed support. He said this to a completely packed room, with students even jammed in the doorway, hoping to get a spot in his course.

[18:36] Chris Angel Murphy
How did you decide and when did you decide to do that? Like, at what point in your career? And also, Were there ever times where that created tension with any of the students?

[18:49] Richard Follett
Thank you. Thank you. Yes, I don't want to pat myself on the back too much. However, my classes always filled up the first day of registration. Always, both in-person and online, always. And the department knew that. I also set the record at Pierce College of having 147 people on a waiting list for a class that was already full. The admissions Dean finally said, "We got to cap waitlist at 20 people." And so I would always have a crowd of people outside on the first day of class day or evening, whatever, waiting and wanting to get in. And and they would do that.

[19:25] Richard Follett
And so that's how I would go through that litany. I said that I had been married, I was divorced. I was gay. I'd been in the Marine Corps. I was in the Christian background. And if any of those identities offend you, or you don't want to learn from somebody like that, there's the door. We had, when I was teaching at Pierce, between 18 and 22 full time teachers in English plus 60 or 70 adjuncts, so find somebody else to teach this class.

[19:51] Richard Follett
Now, I was the only one teaching the Bible's Literature. And so that may cause a problem for some people, but I would say, you know, "I'm not here to impose my view on you. I'm here to share my view and you are perfectly able to challenge the view. And if you do, I will bend over backwards to give you a fair grade based on the evidence you provide for the position you reach."

[20:13] Richard Follett
Did it cause a problem? Yes. There would be occasionally some students who would leave, but let me go back to Miami Dade, because I wasn't out publicly on campus as much. I was also teaching three classes at Miami Dade, which is my internship from Ann Arbor, but also a couple classes over at the University of Miami. So during this semester, and this is freshman comp, and the readers, we always had books that would deal with language and politics, and language and identity, and language and sociology, language and anthropology.

[20:45] Richard Follett
So, I would take a point, usually midway through the semester, where we talk about language and identity. And so I would say, "Let's take a controversial term, such as 'homosexuality.'" And I would put on, "Okay, on the left side, what are all the positive words you can think about homosexuals? And on the right side, all the negative words, you can think about homosexuals." And we're using homosexual inclusively to include the lesbian community. Unfortunately, the trans community was rather invisible to me in those days, and to many people. And now I regret that we didn't include the whole alphabet soup we had [trails off].

[21:21] Richard Follett
So, what we would see is very few positive words and a whole bunch of negative words. And then I would turn around and again, this was after four to six weeks, maybe eight weeks that I had been working with the students. And I'd say- I'd wave my arm and say, "Now which one can I call myself?" And the class would go silent. And they would, "You?" and, and what happened was, Chris Angel, at the end of every semester, you may recall, I did a one page handwritten pref- uh typed, preferably. So I didn't even know the handwriting, unsigned course critique that I would put in a manila envelope and not read until the grades have been turned in. Those are called course critiques to help me improve my teaching. And I'd have, say one thing you liked about the course, if you couldn't think of anything else, is the damn thing came to an end. Okay, I'm done I'm outta here. [Chris Angel laughs]

[22:12] Richard Follett
And one thing about the course that I could improve and one person wrote, "You're obviously uncomfortable with your sexuality, because you made such a dramatic deal about it."

[22:23] Chris Angel Murphy
Hmm.

[22:24] Richard Follett
That was not my intent at all. My intent was to get to know people because I had students who said back in the 80s, when, uh yeah- 70's when I was in Miami, Florida. I had people who say, "I never met a gay person in my life". And my response was always, "Yes, you have, but you don't know that you have. And you won't know because of your attitudes, that will prevent them from coming out around you. Okay? because they're afraid and they don't want to be attacked. And so they're hiding that part. We are hiding that part of our lives to you. You know somebody."

[22:58] Richard Follett
But this student, saying I did it too dramatically made me think and so I thought, okay, opening night. And that came very much out of the wonderful work our sisters did in the feminist community. The feminist community, you name things, and you authentically- the feminist mantra was "the personal is also political, and the political becomes personal." So I would do it that way and just list it. Were there some students who didn't take my classes because of that? Yes.

[23:25] Chris Angel Murphy
Now we have these "Don't Say Gay" laws.

[23:27] Richard Follett
Oh- Oh, good point.

[23:28] Chris Angel Murphy
How would you handle that today?

[23:32] Richard Follett
I'd say it. I'd say it and they can fire me. They can fire me. And let me share that with you, okay? And then that's one reason I got out of high school teaching. So, my objection to the "Don't Say Gay" laws? Well, first of all, I think our community has been incredibly wise in giving it that label, because that's not what was called. But when it's referred to in the news, you have to say the word "gay" to say, "Don't Say Gay". So, that's great. We won on that battle.

[23:55] Richard Follett
But when a preschooler, or up to third grade, because that's what the law affects in Florida, comes to class and says, "I have two mommies," the teacher can simply say, "Yeah, that's what our society has. Two mommies". Teacher doesn't have to go into what mommies doing their bedroom. Teachers don't have to go into all the details. It's just "Yeah, yeah, you have two mommies. This person has a mommy and daddy, this person has two daddies. Of course. This person may have three daddies, or three mommies, or whatever, or- or two mommies and a daddy." Because we know there's a lot of divorces and blended families. Why can't we just openly discuss it? So I would be fired in Florida, probably. Yeah.

[24:39] Chris Angel Murphy
[laughs] You are going to be 75 this year. And something we've laughed about is that it's National Coming Out Day, October 11. And so I guess I'm curious, because you're going to be 75 this year... You've seen a lot of big changes in terms of the queer community, attitudes toward it. So, I'm curious how you feel about the state of things present day, especially here in the States with rights being threatened. You know, so again, as someone who has also witnessed big strides, yeah, I guess, I guess where- where are you with that right now?

[25:22] Richard Follett
Well, let's put it this way. I'm not afraid. And the reason I'm not afraid is I read biblical texts and other cultures have been worse off than we have. We- were in bad shape right now, we are. We're in danger of losing our democracy, but this is the longest continuous democracy of a large nation in the history of the world. It is, we're over what 240 years, or something like that. Usually, democracies fall much faster than that. And democracies worked in smaller communities. They didn't work in a big nation and ours may fall apart. It may, but I'm not afraid.

[25:54] Richard Follett
The Book of Joshua and the Book of Judges, which I don't read often as biblical books because they're so yucky with all the killings and smiting, and I'm tired of smiting and killing, thank you very much. But continually, the angel of God says, "Don't be afraid, don't be afraid, don't be afraid." So, I'm not afraid. Plus, I'm going to be dead when some of these draconian laws come in. I'm more afraid- I'm more concerned for your generation, Chris, than I and mine, okay, and for the younger generation, but that said... The day after President Obama was elected...

[26:25] Chris Angel Murphy
California had Proposition Eight on the same ballot. The measure eliminated rights of same sex couples to marry. The votes were fairly close with nearly 48% of folks voting no, which is what we wanted. That was actually part of the confusion was that we wanted people to vote "no" on it so that it didn't pass. I was president of the Pierce College Gender and Sexuality Alliance Club at the time, and encouraged our members to organize a phone bank, as well as educate students on campus. I wonder how many votes were "yes," out of that confusion, but they actually meant to vote "no." However, we lost and several same sex marriages that had already taken place, were now in limbo.

[27:14] Richard Follett
Because Gavin Newsom, who was mayor of San Francisco and also being mayor, it's also the County of San Francisco, he had approved of same sex marriages in the state of California from, I believe, about May, up until that November vote. I walked into my first classroom, and it was a very, very fine composition class, as I recall, English 101.

[27:37] Chris Angel Murphy
The students were really concerned. Because they knew he was a gay man, they asked him, "How do you feel about Prop Eight passing?"

[27:45] Richard Follett
I said, "Well, first of all, I'm delighted we got President Obama. We got the president we needed. Secondly, when you live as old as I am, I never thought the mere fact of same sex marriage would be on the ballot, or we'd even have it, and you win some, you lose some. And getting the Obergefell, if I pronounced his name right case, a few years later in the Supreme Court-- getting the 5-4 decision. It was very exciting to me.

[28:10] Richard Follett
That's under threat now. I understand that, but I think- I have a very good friend of mine at Pierce College who taught philosophy and also finance. She has said if Roe vs. Wade falls, and if the voting suppression continues so much, there will be such a huge backlash of people of color, and women, and women's allies coming out, that we will sweep these fascists out. I hope that's true. And I think it really depends on this election this November and the next election two years from now that- that's our that's our time to do it.

[28:47] Richard Follett
I also am very, very excited with the January 6 hearings that I'm watching on TV. And the beauty of those is that the committee has decided to use Republicans against Republicans. Because when I was raised, I was raised in the Republican area. I voted for Nixon, Richard Nixon twice. I voted for Jerry Ford, because I was trying to be straight and Christian and all that stuff. I'm still Christian, not straight, alright, and not Republican anymore. But there were, at one point in our history, Eisenhower was a Republican. Okay, so there were people who were decent Republicans, they didn't go as far as we Democrats want them to go.

[29:27] Chris Angel Murphy
Well, and I think that's what's scary about this right now and what's happening and, you know, I'm going to be 35 this year. So like you said, this is stuff I'm in the thick of. And I think just seeing- it'll pop up one place, right, the "Don't Say Gay" law, and then it pops up in several states after that. It's like this domino effect and then you start seeing, right, the anti-trans legislation, specifically saying that girls cannot be in sport. And there needs to be genital inspection, and testing, and all of this or, outright making it so that if a family in Texas, for example, is being affirming of their trans child, etc., like it's- it just, it feels different, right?

[30:19] Chris Angel Murphy
So, I mean, there have been some things I've seen in my lifetime like when we were dealing with Prop 8 and and you know, other- other things have happened in my lifetime alone, but the sheer amount of how many things are popping up, it feels a lot like Whack-a-Mole. And so like I'd be lying if I didn't say that I'm scared because it just feels like the tactic there is to over, like, whelm us because I, I can just barely handle when another thing pops up. But it's just coming from everywhere. That's how it feels.

[30:19] Richard Follett
I'm so delighted you're saying it that way, because yes. And I validate the fear, I validate being scared. I do, because I've been scared at times in my life, too. Courage is working through the fear anyway. And I learned that very clearly in the Marine Corps. I've learned it also as a closet- when I was a closeted gay man. You act anyway, the hell with them. And this is going to happen.

[31:20] Richard Follett
For example, I had a death threat at Pierce College. He had failed English literature twice. So, he came over to take the class with me at Pierce. He failed there, too.

[31:31] Chris Angel Murphy
He gave his home phone number to students so that they could reach him with any questions about a course. This was also a time we weren't using email and the internet nearly as much as we are present day.

[31:42] Richard Follett
And he said, "You better watch your back, buddy". And so I walked around campus for a couple of weeks thinking, "You know, I might be- might be shot". But, you go anyway. You do it anyway. Yeah. Early on, it was somewhat fearful, but later on it wasn't, other than this death threat that came in from the student. And I notified the campus police, and the deans, and all that. You have to learn to live through it. At least, I had to learn- not everybody does, not everybody does. But to surrender to fear, it means they win. And we don't allow that. We don't allow that.

[32:15] Richard Follett
And let me back up my first coming out, here in Los Angeles. There were two films that came out. One was called uh- it was one of the Arnold Schwarzenegger, shoot 'em up films. In fact, he was on Johnny Carson. I don't remember Terminator one, Terminator two, whatever Schwarzenegger did. And Carson said, "Your movie's, like 95 minutes long, and there's 125 or so killings in that movie. Isn't that excessive?" And Arnold said, "Well, maybe so," okay?

[32:45] Chris Angel Murphy
The other film was 1982's Making Love.

[32:49] Richard Follett
It was with Michael Ontkean and Harry Hamlin. And it was the first mainstream movie in the United States where two men kiss. The Michael Onken character played a married doctor married to a woman and Harry Hamlin was a gay man and they kiss in the shadows in the hallway. And it's shown. And what happened was a friend of mine sent me a clipping. This is before internet, he couldn't send it on the internet, a clipping from the Pasadena Star News, or whatever the Pasadena newspaper is, of a letter to the editor. And it was a beautiful letter to the editor. And this was in late May, early June, whenever, near the end of the semester. And the letter say it was a very short letter and I can paraphrase from it. It said, "My wife and I go to the movies every weekend. Last weekend, we saw Arnold Schwarzenegger, and we saw all these people cheering..."

[33:40] Chris Angel Murphy
They were cheering over the kills that were happening in the film. The next weekend, the couple saw the film "Making Love."

[33:47] Richard Follett
...and we saw two men kiss and there were people in the audience booing. What is wrong with our society? That mass murderer gets cheered, and kissing, making love- gets booed.

[34:00] Chris Angel Murphy
Right before he went to work at Pierce, Richard found himself working at the high school level again. He went to his department chair and the principal to let them know he was going to read the letter to his argumentative writing class. Each student read a paragraph. Something happened when the last student finished reading.

[34:17] Richard Follett
Very nice young man. He said, "That's disgusting. Gay people should be shot". "Well then, shoot me first." There was dead silence in the classroom, dead silence. I'd worked with them from February all the way to May, or June, whatever it was- right at the end of the semester.

[34:34] Richard Follett
And he said, "What? You're gay?" And I said, "Yes, I am". He said, "Well, you're a Marine Corps officer. You're- you claimed to be a Christian. You were a married man. You have a couple of children." That did come out over the semester in conversation.

[34:46] Richard Follett
I said, "Yes. I'm also gay". In every single class, because once you come out in one class, first period of the day, the kids go out and they talk and they come in so, we did it every single- all six hours in every class. There were students who quietly raised their hand, "My uncle's gay," "My aunt's a lesbian," "my mom-," "my sister," all- and it just opened up the school. And it was so good to face the truth. What we have to do is be authentic. There's one of my favorite Biblical verses is also John: Chapter eight, verse 28, "You shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free." We have to stop lying about who we are to protect others.

[35:31] Richard Follett
And that's one thing that in the trans community that you folks are facing that even more than I am in the gay community- the gay men's community. I know as a gay person, you know more as a trans person, how saying that word [snaps fingers] can trigger a reaction and you lose friendships, you lose safety, you make yourself vulnerable. But how empowering it is when it's finally embraced. And I'm at the point in my life now, with the church I currently am going to, and it's a mainstream Protestant church. Not- not predominantly gay, like Metropolitan Community church is. I can make jokes, I can talk, I can be open.

For example, we're ordering some new choir robes over the summer, we had- somebody passed away and they left us endowment. I was asked yesterday at church, we're doing this on Monday. They had some sample choir robes in the room and they said, "Richard, which one do you like best?" And I said, "I'm a gay man, but I didn't get the designer gene. They missed that on me. I can't choose. I'm not the one." And it's just saying that like, "This is just who I am." I don't know that. I don't know that. And it's so healthy to be in that position and not be afraid. Now, I have also had the luxury and the privilege and I know this, white privilege, and white male privilege being a college professor, and all having economic security. I'm coming from an intersectional point of privilege.

[37:01] Chris Angel Murphy
Being one of five children, he enjoyed playing sports like hockey, football, and baseball. Richard always lost because the oldest brother had two years on him, which put them at a great advantage, especially as little kids. Eventually, baton twirling became Richard's sport of choice and because of all of the sexism at the time, it was very gender non-conforming of him to participate.

[37:23] Richard Follett
So, when I was in seventh grade, I decided I'm done with sports, not going to compete with my brother. And Audrey was in our church and church choir. She had been the drum majorette of our high school and baton twirler. And I thought I would like to do that and she would teach me. I went to my dad about buying a baton and he said, "Well, I don't know." So he called his dad, my grandfather. And grandpa said "It's okay for boys to twirl batons. Samoans do it with fire baton, and the Polynesians do that. So that- that's good."

[37:54] Richard Follett
And I did know, Chris Angel, that I had to be good if I was going to do a baton twirl because it was very much a girl's activity. We didn't have drum majors of my band much. We had drum majorettes in our school. And so I got good and I took lessons and when I got better than Audrey, she sent me to somebody else. In fact, mom would drive me 70 miles one way on Monday night for a nine o'clock lesson in Galesburg, Michigan. 70 miles up and 70 miles back.

[38:21] Richard Follett
I won the state championship. The University of Michigan in those days, not Michigan State, but the University of Michigan where I wanted to go, had all males on the football field, no females except visiting band members and visiting cheerleaders. The cheerleaders are male, the band members are male, the football players are male. It was incredibly sexist. What I would do, because I became drum major of the high school band in my freshman year, because I had gone to drum major camp and I was- I wasn't a champion yet, but I was good. And I beat a guy who was a sophomore. So, I had all four years as a drum major. I knew walking down the hallway, and you know what school hallways can be like, kids can shove and push and hurt. I was carrying a twirling baton.

[39:04] Richard Follett
"Oh, look at the sissy, look at the sissy." Well, I knew I was a sissy, but I couldn't be a sissy. So, all I said, and mother and I had practiced, was "wait until you see me." The band director, having been a high school drum major himself, featured me in a solo twirling on the first football game. The audience stood and applauded. And there's nothing like a queen out there twirling his baton, and I loved it and I performed well. I was able to twirl in the Rose Parade with the Michigan band. I had already graduated, but they had no twirlers that year. I came back and it was delightful to go down the street. By the way, with all due respect to you, my friend. We were playing USC and they beat us. [Chris Angel laughs] We were booed by the USC fans all the way down the parade route and we were cheered by the Michigan fans, and I loved it all. Loved it all. Yeah.

[39:59] Chris Angel Murphy
There's been a few times now I've had conversations with people who have felt like they needed to be the best at whatever it is that they do, myself included. Especially when representing any marginalized group. So I asked Richard, if that's been a common experience among him and people he cares about.

[40:19] Richard Follett
Oh, yes, yes, yes. For protection, that if we're going to get fired, when our sexual orientation comes out, we would be so key to the organization, that they'll really feel the loss. For example, I won every single teaching award available at Pierce College, and I won California Teacher of the Year, we're a state so big we do four a year. But in 1998, and I won it specifically because of my LGBT activism on the campus and reaching out to students.

[40:47] Richard Follett
However, when I won that, and there were four of us, when we were flown by this State Academic Senate to Sacramento, at the dinner the night before we were to be presented to the board, they said, "Folks, we've changed the system this year. Normally, we asked you to make a small oral presentation, we're not going to do that this year." And I spoke up and I said, "Is that because I'm a LGBT person? "Oh, wow, wow, wow-"

[41:11] Richard Follett
And that's exactly what it was. And we got into a discussion on the issue, and the vice president who was with us, and he said, "Well, my church says what you're doing is a sin". And I said, "My church says it's not".

[41:23] Richard Follett
There was a book that came out several years ago called "The Best Little Boy In The World". And many of us as gay man read it, of how many of us in the marginalized community have to be the best, whatever we are. Trans, woman, whatever. So, that that would be our protection. And we often became very, very, very good.

[41:43] Richard Follett
I am so proud of you and what you have done because you've become better than I am. And that's good. And every good teacher that I know, every one of us, including Jesus, including Muhammad, including Moses- every good teacher wants our students to be better than we are. Jesus says in John- in the Gospel of John, "You will do greater works than I do. Because we stand on the shoulders of the greats before us." I'm getting chills as I'm saying this, I am. Because look where you are now. And I'm sorry, you're scared. And I understand your being scared. But I also know you. You're not gonna let it hold you back. It does every now and then. And I will confess totally, I learned over the years to take sleep days. There would be days I did not get out of bed. I stayed in bed, I slept. If I do get killed because of my orientation, or whatever.. I get killed. I've had a good life. Okay? But I'm sorry that you're still scared, my friend.

[42:43] Chris Angel Murphy
Well, thank you for your kind words. Trying to make me ugly cry on my own podcast.

[42:49] Richard Follett
No, no, no, no, it's true. I am so proud of you. And all that you've done. Yes.

[42:54] Chris Angel Murphy
Thank you. You know, and I mean, it's mutual. And our- our relationship has been really interesting over the years. And that's something I- I'm trying to remember, which- did I have you as a professor first? Or did I see you in the Gay Straight Alliance first?

[43:09] Richard Follett
I thought you saw me in the Gay Straight Alliance first. Right.

[43:11] Chris Angel Murphy
That's what I thought, but I wasn't 100% sure.

[43:15] Richard Follett
But, may I share a story of you on that?

[43:18] Chris Angel Murphy
Oh, jeez. Okay, sure. [laughs]

[43:20] Richard Follett
One night you came to my class, and you were quiet because you sat in the front, I remember. And you were down. And so I went over "What happened?" You had been in a, as I understand the human sexuality or sociology class and they asked the boys to stand on one side, and the girls to stand on one side.

[43:36] Chris Angel Murphy
Yep.

[43:37] Richard Follett
And you didn't know what to do because, what do we do? And it forced you out. And I went to that teacher and talked to that teacher about it. She didn't understand, but we help- you helped educate. And I felt so moved by the experience that you had to undergo. And that stayed with me all my life. Yeah. Yeah.

[43:58] Chris Angel Murphy
Well, I really appreciate your support.

[44:00] Richard Follett
And I shared it without using your name. I shared it with faculty members, and people say, "Oh, we never thought-" well, of course, we didn't think about it.

[44:08] Chris Angel Murphy
Well, that's, that's why I'm proud of both of us. Because we've known each other a long time now. My best guess is around maybe 2007, or so, I think was when we first met- I think is about that period.

[44:23] Richard Follett
Mhm.

[44:23] Chris Angel Murphy
You were the advisor of the Gay Straight Alliance on campus, that's what it was called at the time,

[44:27] Richard Follett
That's correct. That's correct.

[44:28] Chris Angel Murphy
And I didn't have the privilege, I think of working with you in that capacity when I eventually became president of-

[44:35] Richard Follett
No, you didn't. You were- were the one of the best presidents,

[44:38] Chris Angel Murphy
Thank you.

[44:38] Richard Follett
If not the best, you were one of the best.

[44:40] Chris Angel Murphy
Thank you.

[44:41] Richard Follett
I left the group when they wanted to become only a social group, which was fine, social is important.

[44:47] Chris Angel Murphy
Yeah.

[44:47] Richard Follett
But they wanted to do dances and social events. They didn't want to do any political activism. And I said, "that's fine. That's fine." So I stepped aside and the group every year would rename itself and that's fine, too.

[44:58] Chris Angel Murphy
We ended up doing a lot of work together because

[45:01] Richard Follett
Oh, yes!

[45:01] Chris Angel Murphy
we would go to conferences-

[45:04] Richard Follett
We did the California State Conference. Yeah-

[45:07] Chris Angel Murphy
We did panels on campus, and you were just like, incredibly supportive of me. We weren't without our tension, though. And I'm only bringing this up because, you and I have had some tension in the past, you know. And part of that was around my pronouns, because one of the things I'd asked of you was to help me to get scholarships and things like that, like, I needed letters of recommendation.

[45:35] Chris Angel Murphy
And, like, I had shared with you that my pronouns were they/them, you know

[45:38] Richard Follett
Right.

[45:38] Chris Angel Murphy
And they still are to this day, and it [laughs] became a sore spot between us for a very long time. And I remember you, you wrote the letter of rec, you were happy to do it, you were thrilled to do it. You asked me to come to your office, we wrote it together. But then you just you had to keep just saying my name instead of any pronouns, because you just couldn't get on board with the they/them pronouns.

[46:03] Richard Follett
That's correct.

[46:04] Chris Angel Murphy
But that's changed.

[46:05] Richard Follett
Yes, it has. I did it because as an English major, saying they with a-the verb became confusing. If I know "they is coming over," then I prepare food for one. If "they are coming over," I need to ask how many. So that was my- the trap of English grammar, that doesn't have a singular for the word "they."

[46:27] Richard Follett
And now the word "you" if you look, historically, "you" used to have singular "you," and a plural "you," and the pronoun could be "you is" or "you are" dependent on that. And I thought maybe in the community it could go that way. But I've abandoned that. And I've grown, [Chris Angel laughs] I've learned. It's also some battles we choose and others we don't and I wasn't on board enough with you. And I apologize for that.

[46:51] Chris Angel Murphy
You did something really sweet because I'd come across the original letter of rec that you had written me and I don't know, I guess I sent it to you just because I was like, "Oh, look, I still have this or something". And you did something really sweet. You rewrote it. And you included my pronouns.

[47:06] Richard Follett
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[47:06] Chris Angel Murphy
-this time. And I think I told you this, but I ugly cried for a long time, because [Richard laughs] it just meant so much to me because yeah, it was it was like an on ongoing battle. And I didn't push it all the time or anything. You know, we didn't fight about it daily, or anything like that. But I just, I didn't have the language or whatever it was to just explain how important it was for me. Even though that piece didn't feel so great, I knew that you still cared about me and that eventually, we'd resolved that because you did all of these other things to support me.

[47:37] Richard Follett
Well, and Chris Angel, one of my fondest memories of my entire 29 years at Pierce College, was when you and your friend came into my office, and we were talking about expanding the campus. And we spent an hour in my office discussing bathrooms and enlightening Joy who was a very, very wonderful person, and enlightening David of the issues. And I remember we just spent time with the President of the college, and the Dean and that level, and they gave us that much time. And yes, going to gender neutral bathrooms, which is such- who in a house [bangs on desk] has a gender specific [Chris Angel laughs] bathroom? And I love now going places where it's gender neutral bathrooms. Okay? Go in and pee, [Richard laughs] what's the big deal?

[48:21] Chris Angel Murphy
Yeah.

[48:22] Richard Follett
It's not a big deal, okay? So, but I loved that. I- and the fact that you enabled that. And you help me come around to they/them.

[48:30] Chris Angel Murphy
Yeah.

[48:30] Richard Follett
Which is still tricky in my mind every now and then. Because when I think "they" I think plural often.

[48:35] Chris Angel Murphy
You'd explain to me recently too, part of it was that someone was reinforcing that in your schooling, when you were in Florida.

[48:42] Richard Follett
It was the chair at the University of Miami, who I was allowing the plural pronoun when people didn't know rather than the he/she and all that. And and I did say to him, and it came back to bite me. I said, "People are more important than grammar."

[48:59] Chris Angel Murphy
Mhm.

[48:59] Richard Follett
And he disagreed with that.

[49:01] Chris Angel Murphy
You were team plural and singular for they/them.

[49:04] Richard Follett
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[49:06] Chris Angel Murphy
But then they fought it out of you. For quite a while.

[49:10] Richard Follett
I was an adjunct. So I was in a position of less power. Yes, that's yeah. Well, I wasn't as knowledgeable about the community. Yeah, yeah. And it brings up the whole issue of microaggressions. And what I've learned, from you very well and from others, is the person who has been microaggressed against is the one who decides if it was aggression or not. Not the person giving it.

[49:32] Chris Angel Murphy
Do you ever look back at when you were married and wonder how you survived all those years?

[49:39] Richard Follett
Yes. Oh, yes. The fact that my wife asked for the divorce. I did not, okay? I did not, but I was beginning to have homoerotic dreams. Very limited homosexual activity and experience. But the dreams were coming back and I was married seven and a half years. Well actually six and a half and then she moved out, but it took another year to get the divorce. The fact that she asked her the divorce and I didn't, was a great relief. The only regret is that I lost my children in the process. What- would I have been able, because that was 1975, when the divorce happened, would I have been able to live until now as a closeted gay man and be faithful to her? Because I don't believe in adultery. The answer is, I don't know. And the answer is probably not. And I don't- I don't know, Chris, if I had the moral strength not to be. My, I also wish that I had told my wife before the marriage, I've had some homosexual experience, I had no heterosexual experience. I wish I had told her that, but one didn't do that back then.

[50:46] Chris Angel Murphy
Because Richard had participated in the It Gets Better Project, I asked him if there's anything he'd add to his video now, given current events, and what his allyship tip was for the listeners.

[51:01] Richard Follett
Thank you. And thank you for asking the question that way. And I've really enjoyed this interview, by the way. Don't forget to be queer, which comes out of being gay, which comes out of gaiety, which comes out of the French "joie de vivre," the joy of life. Don't forget to live our abundant lives, our lives that are full and rich, and laugh in their face, and go on with it. And that's so, so important to me. So be happy, be happy. Enjoy it, life is way too short to sit around feeling how awful it is. Okay?

[51:34] Chris Angel Murphy
Well, folks, as promised, this interview was a bit different. I've been very fortunate to hear so many of Richard's stories. Some close to the heart that only a select few know. And while he's had an incredible life, and has created so many ripples of positive change everywhere he went, this episode is only a small fraction of the life he's lived so far, and how he's loved others.

[52:05] Chris Angel Murphy
I hope it inspires you to get active in your local communities, if you're not already. And if you're scared about everything that's happening in the States, in the UK, and beyond... I'm right there with you. We're going to fight this. I know we will prevail in the end, but right now it feels daunting and I'm utterly exhausted. I hope you take good care of yourselves. And just like Richard did, take some sleep days. Thank you, Richard, for trusting me to tell your story, for your words of wisdom, and so much more.

[52:44] Chris Angel Murphy
And now, the last three self reflection questions.

4. How do I handle any oppression I may experience, especially if I'm from any marginalized communities? Do I feel good about how I respond to those situations?

5. Do I believe that my vote makes a difference?

6. Do I know about any LGBTQ+ history of any of the places I've lived?

Visit AllyshipIsAVerb.com for any resources and a full transcript of the episode. And don't forget to live a queer, abundant life and laugh.