[00:00:00] Charlie Ocean: Well, hello there. I'm Charlie Ocean, and my pronouns are they/them. Welcome to Allyship is a Verb, a podcast for people practicing allyship, for the LGBTQ+ community, and beyond!

You're adorable. (laughs) Yep, that's how this is starting. (both laugh)

[00:00:33] Ed Carratalà: Hi, I'm Ed Carratalà, or Edu in Spanish, and my pronouns are he/him or él.

[00:00:40] Charlie Ocean: (laughs) You're so fucking cute!

[00:00:45] Ed Carratalà: I just thought that I also have to include Spanish there.

[00:00:48] Charlie Ocean: I love it. Thank you. Because that's what I see when we chat on WhatsApp.

[00:00:55] Ed Carratalà: Mm-hmm.

[00:00:57] Charlie Ocean: (laughs) Alright, just - ah, I'm just in a good mood. It's just really good to see you and hang out with you. So thanks for coming back on.

[00:01:04] Ed Carratalà: Thank you so much. I love being here and I'm excited.

[00:01:08] Charlie Ocean: Yes, me too. It's just, yeah, I always look forward to connecting with you.

Last time, you had shared that you are bisexual, queer, and a systemic therapist. Has anything changed?

[00:01:22] Ed Carratalà: Rather than changed in and of itself, maybe there's been a shift on the emphasis. I'm still bisexual, still queer, and I'm emphasizing a lot more in - I'm a systemic queer therapist or queer systemic therapist, because that's pretty much how I show up in my work.

And also, I'm emphasizing a lot more that I'm a parent, because that's a huge, huge part of my life, takes up all of my life, in the best way, and it's a lot of the reason of why I do what I do. Why I want to be better, why I want to show up better, why I want to be a better person in the world - for the kids.

[00:02:04] Charlie Ocean: Mmm. That's really sweet. (both laugh)

Well, it's been over a year, and you know, we'll come back to the parent piece and all of that, but it's been over a year since you were last on the show. What is new in your world is actually quite a bit. So we'll just sort of tackle these one by one as best as we can.

But one of the things that really stood out to me, and of course we've had like friend conversations about it too, but you had to train students on campus, because you're also a professor.

[00:02:43] Ed Carratalà: Mm-hmm.

[00:02:43] Charlie Ocean: You had to train students on LGBTQ+ communities in secret.

[00:02:48] Ed Carratalà: Mm-hmm.

[00:02:49] Charlie Ocean: And I'm curious if you can just sort of help refresh people's memories. Last time we were talking about how your students - and we could talk about the program and all that that you're in - but your students were seeking more knowledge around LGBTQ+ communities, and it's really something that's been lacking in Spain.

So, I'm curious about what has happened since.

[00:03:12] Ed Carratalà: A lot has happened. We did that like a, very secret on a Saturday, no one else was in the university, in campus. So much so, that I think like seven students wanted to come in and five of them got like stuck outside because the security guard thought that that was it and they just closed the gates and only two got in.

And they were from the masters in family therapy that I teach. And so these are students that have, have already finished like a basic grad school and they are in sort of like this specialization after program. Some of these students were interested because I inevitably talk about like my queer clients or how I show up as a queer therapist also, and there was a lot of interest and it was not hard convincing me, but they were interested in that.

And so we did manage to do that little thing in secret, but that got enough noise that last year, so about four or five months after the episode, we did have like an official class, which was officially scheduled for about four hours. It ended up being a little bit over that, because I'm always over time.

[00:04:19] Charlie Ocean: And it was also a big fucking deal.

[00:04:21] Ed Carratalà: Yes, because it is a Catholic university. And apparently, two significant things happened in terms of, like, people got uncomfortable or shaken up a little bit. When it was announced, I heard some rumors, let's say, like that, that there was going to be infiltrated guests, making sure that I wasn't sort of addressing subjects in a way that was not aligned with the institution's ideals. Let's phrase it in that way.

Luckily, that was the first energy that had happened when the news got out of this class was gonna happen. But, on the good side, or on the positive note - and the class ended up being like, four, five months after the announcement - so, chaos got drowned, nobody ended up coming with that intention, and until it was a great class, a lot of interest, people were very engaged.

And again, they made enough noise for this year in June, again, we're having twice as time - twice as many hours, and we're doing, I think it's a 10-hour class over a weekend.

So yeah, that's exciting. And we're getting more students to come in.

[00:05:39] Charlie Ocean: Wow! Wait, like, I don't even think I knew that, that you were going to be doing it. Yeah, this is news to me.

[00:05:48] Ed Carratalà: Yeah. Surprise. (both laugh)

[00:05:52] Charlie Ocean: I love it.

[00:05:52] Ed Carratalà: Yeah. We didn't have enough time again, cause I definitely always go overboard, over time, because I'm so excited about sharing. I love teaching. It's, it's something that I. I always come back home after a class, so exhausted, but also so overly activated, very excited. I love the questions. I love getting some pushback from the students and, and seeing how they're not convinced with something and sort of being challenged. I love it. I love all of it.

And so I always go overboard with that, or over time. And since it's within the context of a program for training family therapists, there is an obvious need of getting into basics of what Affirmative Therapy means, of getting into real, like, real basic stuff. Talking about gender, gender representation, gender identity, sexual attraction, and all that, are different things and should be addressed differently and the conversation should include like different potential conversations.

And with all that, it ended up being like, some of the students had no idea, for example, that, or, or couldn't really tell the difference, for example, between transgender and gay, for example, like, "How are they different?" Were some of the questions like, "Okay, we really need to get into basics. Let's take a, take a step back."

And so, that made it obvious that we do need to, within this class, cover some of the basics, so we can get into a conversation of how do we then work with families where there's a queer client or there's a queer, a queer kid that's coming out.

So that's exciting. And that's how we're separating sort of the two days too.

[00:07:38] Charlie Ocean: That's really cool.

[00:07:39] Ed Carratalà: This is a side thing, which we will probably get into more later, but also, from these classes, I've sort of contacted some of these students that showed more interest. And I saw, in a way, I saw the potential in them, and how it would be really interesting to work with them, because there's this idea that's going on, how, sort of, I'm trying to develop a team of queer systemic therapists here in Barcelona, because there's definitely a need for that.

Not necessarily hiring, but -

[00:08:12] Charlie Ocean: Mm-hmm. Yeah, I mean, well, let's let's dive into it.

[00:08:16] Ed Carratalà: Oh, okay.

[00:08:17] Charlie Ocean: I mean, there's a few projects -

[00:08:19] Ed Carratalà: Mm-hmm.

[00:08:19] Charlie Ocean: You're trying to spin out there - but yeah, so is this like kind of like an unofficial program that you're trying to create with these students or I guess maybe a better way of saying it is that you're supervising them?

[00:08:33] Ed Carratalà: Since the connection is I'm a professor, they're students, and that's how we know each other in a way, there is definitely a little bit of that part of the dynamic where I'm training them a little more. But again, I really like their perspectives, and I want to assist their training, not necessarily just train them myself, because they have a lot to give too.

And what we're doing is, or the idea, it's still in the works, is to is we're probably going to create an association where we're going to be offering low-income therapy for queer clients, or variable-income therapy for queer clients.

And again, in my experience working here, there is a good bunch of gay-affirmative therapists, there are some lesbian/bi women affirming therapists, but when we start going into, for example, with bisexual men, or nonbinary people, or trans, or other identities, I've had the experience where, for example, I haven't had space in my schedule to receive a client. And so I referred them to someone that looked or felt good enough. And I've had clients come back to me saying, "No, no, no, I'd rather wait than continue working with that person."

Again, for example, a couple of examples are in the area of maybe a gay man that was exploring their relationship to gender and didn't find it, didn't find it affirming their experience with other, again, gay-affirming therapists, if that makes sense.

And so what I'm trying to do with, with this group is sort of expand from how we combine an affirming perspective and an affirming therapy view with a systemic perspective that we work because they overlap in so many ways and there's so much need for, in my opinion and in my experience, there's so much need from the affirming, let's call it the affirming therapy world, there's so much need of the influx of the perspective of the systemic therapy perspective and approach, and the other way around.

From the systemic therapy world, there's so much need of the influx of information from a more affirming approach, if that makes sense. So we need to get them all together.

[00:11:05] Charlie Ocean: I think all of that makes sense. And I mean, something like that is a pretty big lift. (laughs) I'm curious, like, how many people do you have involved in that project, so far of wanting to create that association and hopefully that center?

[00:11:23] Ed Carratalà: Right now it's three students and me, because it's still in on like the very early stages building blocks kind of thing. But I already have like four or five people lined up for second and third phases with social workers and people that would specialize and helping us receive some funding - sort of those ideas. And more therapists to include more variety.

Because the conversations that we're having, for example, is we also want to include therapists that are - here in Barcelona there's a lot of queer migration, and it would be very interesting to also include more therapists that represent that. There's a lot of migration from northern Africa and really all over the world. Because it's been a bit in the news and the queer world, how Barcelona is potentially one of the safer cities in the world and one of the more open-to-queerness cities in the world. And that's been happening a lot too.

Maybe going into more on the like, the newer projects, there's like this exciting thing. I think I shared this with you, like in our personal, in our friend hangs, that thanks to like the ever worse queer platform, I got contacted. Queer-owned businesses in this neighborhood, in Barcelona, that we're getting together and we're trying to do more community and showing up more for the community with this multiplicity of businesses that show up. Like there's restaurants, there's bars, there's like health studios and like health and fitness studios.

Again, I'm always the infiltrated one. I'm the infiltrated therapist and like all of these other sort of like client-based businesses. (Charlie laughs) It's been beautiful to connect with this sort of like growth energy in so many projects: in school, like in the university, and like these different associations that are probably in the builds.

And yeah.

[00:13:25] Charlie Ocean: You're just working on all sorts of cool shit. I don't even know how you have time for our friendship, (both laugh) but I say that as someone who also has like 20 million projects, so (Ed laughs) I'm one to talk.

Shifting gears a bit, another big change in your life has been the ending of a pretty big relationship and now you are co-parenting with this person.

[00:13:50] Ed Carratalà: Mm-hmm.

[00:13:52] Charlie Ocean: So, as this is such a major life transition, because it was, it was over nine years, right?

[00:14:01] Ed Carratalà: Yes, it was nine and a half years together.

[00:14:04] Charlie Ocean: So, you're co-parenting, you're, as I called her last time, your itty bitty child.

[00:14:12] Ed Carratalà: Mm-hmm.

[00:14:13] Charlie Ocean: I know that it's been more, well, it's - well I think it's always been important for you to tell people that you are a parent. And one of the major changes that I've seen is you've been intentionally going out and seeking more, I want to say like, queer friendships.

[00:14:33] Ed Carratalà: Mm-hmm.

[00:14:33] Charlie Ocean: And making friends as an adult can be a fucking nightmare, or at least for me. (both laugh) Like, I, I think about like, you know, when I lived in LA and I'd lived there for so long, and then, you know, came over here to Denver, Colorado, like, you know, starting over again in a lot of respects can be a lot, but, you know, for you, it's just, it's opened up more time.

And, yeah, I guess, like, as you've been growing this, what I'm going to call the queer circle.

[00:15:06] Ed Carratalà: Mm-hmm.

[00:15:07] Charlie Ocean: What do you kind of share about yourself and how have you been meeting new people?

[00:15:13] Ed Carratalà: Thank you for that question and yeah, it's been quite the experience. It was very important for me after the separation to sort of emphasizing more - the way I phrase it is, practicing what I work with my clients to, in terms of, yeah, go out there and feel present in spaces that feel affirming for you. And so yeah, after the relationship ending, like you say, a lot of time opened up, and yeah, meeting new people.

Talking about me being a parent probably is a subject that comes out in less than two minutes. So everyone knows that I'm a parent and everyone knows about my kid and how much I love her and I adore her and she's amazing.

I want to say it's been really good because I'm also very out forward with information that - both from my work and in the personal relationships - I know some subjects may be difficult, for example, talking about being bisexual in a mostly gay-apparent group of people. I know some people feel uncomfortable with that, and that's something that I'm sort of jumping real quick into it, like, "Here's my name, I'm a parent, I'm bisexual. Do you have any questions about that?" Sort of. And I'm very forward with that.

And I'm considering myself very lucky where I've been meeting some really incredible people, some real good friendships, and also getting to have some very exciting conversations. For example, I joke about with this group of people that I've been hanging out with, there's some activities that have been going on, that I am the infiltrated bisexual. (Charlie laughs)

They have this really good intention. It's an amazing group of human beings, the ones that organize it. And they have this intention of being like, very queer-inclusive, like all of the letters kind of a thing. But since some things are not protected, it, most of the times it ends up being a, instead of LGBT, kind of like a GGGG sort of space. It's mostly gay men.

There's some queerness in their presentation with some of the men. But again, I'm the infiltrated bisexual. Whenever there's something about a conversation about the identities or sexualities, it's all of us gays, and I sort of like, raise my hand and say, "And the bisexual, don't forget about the bisexual." kind of a thing. (both laugh)

[00:17:40] Charlie Ocean: Yeah, well, I mean, there's a lot to dive into there. So, like, to make it clear about activities before people start, like, raising their eyebrows or something, (Ed laughs) like, you've been going, like, snowboarding and things like that. You've been going out to, like, clubs or bars and you know all that kind of fun stuff.

But yeah, and something that's like struck me in our friendship is just I don't know how quickly and easily - I mean, I've never seen it in person, so I go off of like what you share with me - but like how quickly and easily it is for you to just like shift into that mode of "Yeah, and I'm bisexual." and like keep carving out that space for yourself.

I mean You doing this and spending more time intentionally in queer spaces is still kind of like newer in your life.

[00:18:27] Ed Carratalà: Mm-hmm.

[00:18:28] Charlie Ocean: I guess I'm curious, like, you know, it's all fun and exciting now, but, and you don't mind answering people's questions about your bisexuality and all of that. But I guess I'm curious, do you see a point in your life where maybe you sort of move away from that role in these kinds of spaces? And, I don't know, don't feel like you have to be like the, let's say, teachable moment?

[00:18:54] Ed Carratalà: I'm very comfortable with that position, and sadly, I don't see it shifting away in the foreseeable future. Because for it to shift away, that would mean, or for me to sort of shift away from that position, I think it would be, because I feel it's not important, or I feel it's not necessary anymore.

And as long as the conversation is focused on, here's a bunch of apparently men, or here's a bunch of people that I perceive as men, in a queer space, that must mean that we're all gay and we're all gay men. I'm very comfortable with confronting, in a respectful way, of, "You know what? No, let's not forget about other people." And exhibit A: I'm not a gay man. I'm a bisexual, queer, like you sometimes refer to me, "cis plus" (Charlie laughs) man, kind of. (Ed laughs)

[00:19:54] Charlie Ocean: Uh huh. I'll explain that later in the podcast. Yeah.

[00:19:58] Ed Carratalà: Okay. And I feel it's important to keep the conversation going, because I do feel myself in a position where I'm comfortable enough to do that.

And in a way, it's also facilitating for whoever needs to hear it kind of a thing. And because I know some people, both in my work and in my personal life, I know some people that don't feel safe or don't feel comfortable enough having these conversations in very important places for them. I'm going to continue having these conversations.

And it's, it has brought me some conflicts, some issues, some very difficult conversations and very difficult relationships in, sometimes in queer spaces, but also in like my more personal life, with family members, or stuff like that. Because I'm so out forward about it, and maybe some people will be thinking or will, because they're very set in their ways, will be thinking, "Maybe that's too much, maybe you don't need to do that."

And that's precisely why I continue to do it, because there's people that still believe that it's too much.

[00:21:08] Charlie Ocean: In some ways, do you feel like you're also being so visible and loud, I mean, not only just because like you're a professor, but also because you're almost kind of, sort of making up for lost time, like being someone coming out a little bit later in life?

[00:21:23] Ed Carratalà: Yeah, there's a part of that. And most of it is, I want to make sure that I'm seen, because I did not see, not just in myself, but outside of myself. I didn't have anyone near me that sort of allowed - I set this example of, whenever I'm having a conversation with someone in a restaurant, in a table, in a one-on-one conversation, there's one table over that maybe there's someone that needs to hear this other conversation being so natural. "Oh, look, there's this person talking about themselves being bisexual in such a natural way, in such an open way."

And again, in that idea of making up for lost time, there's also this: I've never heard, overheard this conversation anywhere, and so I want to continue the discourse. I want to continue the conversations making, and making the conversations present.

[00:22:24] Charlie Ocean: Sort of, like, finishing this particular train of thought that I've been on, something that made me laugh my ass off last time in our conversation, was when I was researching you, like, your name and stuff, just to see what I could find online, (Ed laughs) which I think kind of freaked you out, but it was fine, but you already know what I'm gonna say. You had left a review for these (Charlie laughs) things bi flag shorts. It was like this gradient and I was just like, "Oh my God, Ed."

I mean, so that was some time ago and I know you love your swag. (Ed laughs) You love your merch. You love your, your queer, merch and swag. What have you purchased since the last time we, spoke?

I'm super curious.

[00:23:05] Ed Carratalà: All of your merch. (Charlie laughs) And to whoever is listening, you should buy all of the merch from Allyship is a Verb, all of the designs, everything, it's amazing.

[00:23:14] Charlie Ocean: You're so sweet, thank you.

[00:23:16] Ed Carratalà: And yeah, I'm sure, like, more flags, more, whenever I find a t shirt that has like a fun message or a fun, or the flag drawn in a fun way, I'm definitely a sucker for that.

[00:23:29] Charlie Ocean: Yeah, and this is a little bit explicit, I'm not gonna lie, but I'm quoting you directly, you have told me that you are "a slut for podcast merch" and that just does not leave my brain.

[00:23:42] Ed Carratalà: Yes. (laughs)

[00:23:42] Charlie Ocean: Every now and then it floats back into my brain (ed laughs) and I just start laughing. I never tell you, but like, I promise you, I think about it more than I want to admit. (both laugh)

[00:23:54] Ed Carratalà: I love it. I don't recall saying that, (Charlie laughs) but that, that, that's a good - very, very true, 100%.

[00:24:00] Charlie Ocean: Yeah, it just, because of the slut part too, I'm like, you know, pro slut. I will clarify that, but also, yeah, "I'm a slut for podcast merch." I just, and I never.

[00:24:11] Ed Carratalà: Yeah.

[00:24:12] Charlie Ocean: But it's perfect. It's very you, so I appreciated it.

[00:24:15] Ed Carratalà: I love that you paused though, like "You're a slut (Charlie laughs) - for podcast merch."

I'm like, I love that you paused there. I'm like, "Wait a minute."

[00:24:22] Charlie Ocean: I think the pause was a little bit longer for you than it actually was, (laughs) because I think you were curious where the hell I was going with that. (both laugh) But, to clarify, I'm only talking about podcast merch. Oh my gosh, I'm just like blushing now.

So, The other part with you're, you know, like, talking about, like, your daughter, I mean, there's a lot that, you know, we could talk about. But I guess being a bisexual and queer parent and being in this space that you are co-parenting and everything, how do you think this changes your, your parenting? And I guess, like, what do you do to create this affirming environment for your kid to show that, like, bisexuality, queerness, etc. is, like, okay? Or is that something that you've been doing or thinking about or, yeah.

I'm asking you like 20 million questions. I'll let you answer.

[00:25:29] Ed Carratalà: One thing that I'm super proud of and super happy is, my kid loves this book called "My Magic Family." Which is a beautiful kid's book of like multiple representations of different families. It's beautiful, very well written, very well designed, like the, the drawings and it's a beautiful book.

And most of the nights she asks, before going to sleep, she asks for us to read that book and I make sure to have like different kinds of stories. There's this other book that she really loves called "My Rainbow", beautiful book too. It's the story of a trans, autistic black girl and her experience. It's a self-story that's written by her , Trinity, and Deshanna O'Neill, I think, or Neal. And it's a beautiful book and my kid enjoys it.

And I'm very intentional in the different stories and the different representations that we have in her book collection, which she loves to read.

And also with the books that I sort of share and we share with other kids. Like other kids from friends of mine, or I've gone to her school, her daycare, to read that particular book, "My Magic Family," with the rest of the group, and sort of continued having, in whatever way possible, representation rather than conversations. Because conversations with a two-year-old are not elaborate conversations, but representation is very elaborate.

And sort of continuing that how multiple the world can be, and how many colors the rainbow has. It's a very exciting way, that that can happen with kiddos.

[00:27:14] Charlie Ocean: How has your, I mean if it has at all, but how has your perspective on parenting shifted since embracing and being more visible with your bisexual and queer identities?

[00:27:27] Ed Carratalà: I'm not so sure of the direction of what shifted what. Because, I always, for example, say this, when my first niece was born, it activated a lot of conversations for me of like gender representation in the world and gender participation in the world and sort of like this - it was very many years ago, 14 years ago. And it's sort of got me to shift into a more, I'm going to say socially conscious, way of thinking and way of showing up in the world and making sure to have conversations that were important in different contexts.

And then when I was expecting to have a kid, it also pushed into that direction more of "How am I showing up for myself?" and "How am I being an example for people to see?" because I'm going to be an example for my kid, whether I like it or not, I'm going to be an example. And how do I want to be a better example? How do I align more with myself so I can sort of preach more with the example rather than, instead of, "Do as I say, not as I do?"

So, how do I put out more of the example of, "Do as I say and do?" because it can be done. Because you can show up for yourself. Because you can, you can be an ally for yourself. You can defend your position, you can represent yourself, you can raise your voice and be heard. And that's okay. And I'm here for you.

With the separation also, it's been, I say it both with so much pride and joy, and also like some pain there too, I'm so, so, so proud of my kid and how she's, showing she's dealing with emotions and how she's very aware and showing how she's processing.

Like right now, for example, she's two, she's going to be three in June. And right now, very cutely, she says, "I'm two. So now I have two houses and two bedrooms." And then the other day she said, "And very soon I'm going to turn three. So I'm going to have three houses and three bedrooms." (Charlie laughs)

I'm like, "No, no, no, no. That's not how that works." (both laugh) Up until that point, it was good.

[00:29:40] Charlie Ocean: Going back to the threads of you being a parent and now, being able to go into more queer and gay spaces, that you've been invading or infiltrating as a bisexual, (laughs) I'd like to revisit something that you shared a bit ago, and I'm probably gonna mess this up, but I think you said something about that, like, some of the gay men in those spaces feel uncomfortable with you being a parent or knowing that you're a parent? I guess like can you share more about that?

[00:30:16] Ed Carratalà: Yeah, I've had like mixed respect of mixed reactions of - so here, for example, it's, for gay men, It's very difficult to to be able to adopt because there's like very restrictive laws. I've definitely had some reactions in terms of emphasizing my privilege because I'm bisexual, I can have like a biological kid in a way that is aligned with me and feels good. And I have had some reactions in terms of like, "Oh, okay." sort of like dismissing that kind of information.

And some reactions, not just dismissing, but like assuming that, for example, I never wanted it in the first place, or it was part of my cover-up kind of a thing. And I'm like, "No, no, no."

[00:31:00] Charlie Ocean: (begin explainer) For a long time, and even now, people have intentionally married someone as a cover, or what's called a "beard," because they believe being gay or queer is a sin.

It could be that they live somewhere it's not safe, or they didn't have the language or self-awareness until much later in life. Like former guest Kathy, who calls herself a "late in life lesbian."

There are multitudes of reasons. Richard, at the start of season two, talks about why he married a woman despite being a gay man, and how they eventually divorced.

Some folks intentionally marry while both being part of the LGBTQ+ community, needing access to a safer place to live, or benefits that can come with marriage, like health insurance through a spouse's workplace. (laughs) You could kind of call them friends with benefits, I guess.

Jokes aside, it's complex. Especially when the other partner finds out, if they didn't know. If they've spent decades together, the other partner can feel the whole marriage was a lie; feel used. Feel like they wasted all of this time of their life and think, "What the fuck am I supposed to do now?" So many big feelings can arise for everyone involved. They may even stay together because they do love each other, it's just that it's differently than they thought.

There are also reasons like intentionally bringing someone of an expected gender as a date to prom or an event. But it's a cover for going with someone else, with everyone being in on it. They may bring home a boyfriend or girlfriend to throw off suspicions from family.

So it doesn't always have to be with marriage. Again, it's complex. Especially if people feel like they need to do this for survival. (return to interview audio)

[00:32:58] Ed Carratalà: That's not it. Remember, I'm bisexual. We exist. And I freaking love my kid to death, and to life and to everything in between. Again, whenever that happens, I am very aware that that's people talking more about them than about me. That could be a therapist coming out.

I've had also the more kinky reactions, like, "Ooh, you're an actual daddy then." I'm like, "No, no, no. You're not gonna turn that into a thing." (both laugh)

[00:33:26] Charlie Ocean: Oh my gosh. Some other threads that we tugged on or explored in the last conversation was your relationship with your not being out, and using alcohol and going out as a means of being able to explore it, but under the guise of "Ha ha, like I don't even remember what happened I was so drunk." Like -

[00:33:51] Ed Carratalà: Yeah.

[00:33:51] Charlie Ocean: I know that you've shared with me that you know you've been going to queer spaces again, like bars and clubs and, you know, drinking. I'm curious, like, how your relationship with those spaces and alcohol and all that feels, now that you are out and more open about who you are?

[00:34:17] Ed Carratalà: I'm definitely not using alcohol the same way. I'm not going to say I'm not drinking, because I do drink, but it's definitely not in the same way. And it's, it's been so joyful to allow myself to be present without any kind of substance in these kinds of spaces and with myself too.

I think I've shared this, for example, going to Pride, right. Like last year's Pride here in Barcelona, I felt so, so much joy showing up for myself, being present in that space, showing up. I ended up bumping into some clients that we sort of worked through how they were dealing with going to their first Pride, and I ended up being part of their first Pride in-person too, which was one of the many complexities of being a queer therapist and participating of - in queer spaces.

But yeah, I'm feeling so much joy for myself by showing up for myself and my community and people like me, without alcohol. Because I've been in, like they say in Spanish, I've been, back in the day, I was sort of the "hetero pero", the "hetero butt." But in Spanish it rhymes, so it's, it's cute. (Charlie laughs)

But it's, it's not a cute activity because a lot of hetero peros can have like very violent and non-respectful ways of dealing with their pedos, their butts, and "buts" with one "t". (both laugh)

[00:35:44] Charlie Ocean: yeah, this conversation's gotten really kinky. I'm here for it. (Ed laughs)

Something else that we've talked about was your relationship with masculinity and how that's evolved over the years. And plus there's the whole part of the cis plus thing that came up that I've, I've shared with you.

[00:36:04] Ed Carratalà: Mm-hmm.

[00:36:04] Charlie Ocean: How has your masculinity continued to change? Has there been like anything else that you've been exploring or anything like that in your queerness and masculinity or just like those kinds of energies, period?

[00:36:19] Ed Carratalà: I love this question and thank you so much. And just today, I was having a conversation with, with this friend of mine that she moved from California back here, and we were seeing some videos of - because in systemic therapy, we record the sessions a lot of the times - and we were seeing videos of how one of the therapists that I was working on back in, I think it was 2016.

And I show up so differently in therapy, as a therapist. I used to be like, I should wear like a dress shirt kind of a thing and I should project this sort of like very serene neutrality image. And now I'm like all colors. I do my nails. I'm sassy in therapy. (Charlie laughs) And, and so, it's so different, and I've seen it being so beneficial.

I love, for example, I love, I have so much joy with clients, what I call the "accidental queers," that come to therapy with me, because they're referred, because they've heard good opinions, or, or something like that. And in therapy, there's this "aha" moment and they give feedback, in that sense, from how they see me, how they see me show up.

And for example, my nails or me wearing pride bracelets or me being out and maybe talking about, for example, for me as a bisexual, such and such, has given space for them to be like, "Hold on, I've never given space or said this out loud, but I think there's something there for me, and I don't know what."

And it's been amazing to see the effect of, again, how showing up for myself and how presenting in a different way has been so beneficial with, also with my clients, and that's been beautiful.

[00:38:14] Charlie Ocean: Yeah, and even, and you know, there's a lot that can play into this, but even in our conversation last time versus now, you're a lot more comfortable in yourself and yeah, I just feel like there's definitely an energy shift. Not that you're like super closed-up or anything, but I mean, part of it is that we're friends and that you also are, you know, a huge fan of the podcast. (laughs) So like there are those elements too, (Ed laughs) but yeah, I think it's just been really interesting to see that and witness it.

And also just like, there's been a lot of queer joy that you've shared with me in our friendship -

[00:38:50] Ed Carratalà: Yeah.

[00:38:50] Charlie Ocean: In the years now that we've been friends, which is wild to think about.

[00:38:54] Ed Carratalà: Mm-hmm. (whispers) I know.

[00:38:57] Charlie Ocean: (laughs) It's just really, yeah, it's been really exciting to, to see those moments that you've shared with me in private and, and all of that. And just like where it feels like you're in a really good space. Not to say that you've been in like a shithole or something for your life (both laugh) recently, you know, but it's just, it's more like, yeah, you're, you're so much more comfortable with yourself and you're just so excited about exploring new things and it's just been really fun to, to witness as someone who's gotten closer to you.

[00:39:27] Ed Carratalà: Yeah. Thank you. Thank you for that. And, and yeah, 100%. And it's made me a lot more aware, and I shared this example: last summer, in August, I was in Argentina for a week. I was in Buenos Aires by myself. And since it was a different space for me, it was not a good moment for me either. It was right after separating with my, with my ex, I was concerned about my own safety. It was a different context, different city. It, it, it wasn't something that I was used to.

And I noticed that, especially if I was in a cab, for example, I noticed how I changed my tone of voice, because I was more aware that I was presenting less masculine physically. And so I needed to shift my tone of voice to like a little lower.

It's made me more aware of how I act with different scenarios, and I love being more aware of that because it, again, it gives me the choice if I want to continue doing this or if I want to sort of recalculate. If I don't want it to be a sort of thing that I do because I don't feel safe, and again, if it's something that I choose to do because I am choosing to do this here because it feels better instead of, I can only do this, if that makes sense.

[00:40:45] Charlie Ocean: Yeah, code-switching.

[00:40:46] Ed Carratalà: Mm-hmm.

[00:40:47] Charlie Ocean: I don't know, (laughs) I almost, when you made your voice go a little bit lower, I almost said, "Yes, daddy." (both laugh) Cause like it's - whoop. There we go.

Oh, great. So as a longtime listener, and now as someone on here twice.

[00:41:07] Ed Carratalà: Mm-hmm.

[00:41:08] Charlie Ocean: Two questions for you. The first one is: how have people in your life responded to your first episode?

[00:41:16] Ed Carratalà: Mostly, brilliantly. I share this example: my mom, she doesn't really understand English, and I love that her response was like, "Oh my god, you like, really know how to speak in English." (Charlie laughs) I'm like, "Yes mom." (laughs)

[00:41:27] Charlie Ocean: "That's what you took from this?"

[00:41:29] Ed Carratalà: So she didn't understand the words, and she was like, "Yeah, that's as much as I can get." But it was great, for example, with my parents to have like, more in-depth conversations, and with the people that I've shared, mostly it's invited a lot, like, more in depth conversations.

Some of those conversations have not been great after, in the university, for example, or with students. Part of it is what brought them into class in June, since I've already shared the episode, brought them into the class in June with more questions. With, like, sort of more background, of what am I getting into in this class in June.

[00:42:10] Charlie Ocean: That's really beautiful. I'm glad it's been like mostly positive. And of course, like, it's not a surprise to me because we've already had this conversation, but as friends, but -

[00:42:21] Ed Carratalà: Now it's on record. (both laugh)

[00:42:23] Charlie Ocean: Yes, it is official - stamp. I did a stamp motion just for people listening, you know, that I was, (laughs) yeah. In alignment with my actions and my words, but.

[00:42:35] Ed Carratalà: It's notarized now. (both laugh)

[00:42:38] Charlie Ocean: Yes. This is kind of putting you on the spot: I know that you've shared with me that there's been episodes that you've specifically recommended to, like, clients, but I'm curious about if there's, like, I don't know, maybe one or two episodes that you've listened to from the podcast that have stayed with you?

I'm totally putting you on the spot there, but yeah, I'm just curious.

[00:43:03] Ed Carratalà: You're totally putting me on the spot, and I'm gonna have the excuse that it's 11pm at night, and I've been awake since like 5. 30 in the morning, and so that's the excuse I'm gonna go with, and I cannot, like, recall specific episodes by the name. I do love - but that's my fanboy being the fanboy with you - I do love the episode with, I think it's with Richard, because we get to hear more from you and I love that from you and of you.

But going into more of the episodes that I've shared overall, I share the podcast, I've chosen some episodes, for example, with families, working with families with a queer kid, I've chosen some episodes that have been sort of potentially stimulating, of conversations within the parents, that I have then brought into therapy after that. So I've shared, like, listen to these two or three episodes, or as many as you want from this podcast.

I do recall, for example, I think it was last year for Trans Day of Visibility, you had this like, special episode, special event that ended up being an episode, and I do recall like, referring for parents to listen to the episode or view the recording, because I think it was also on YouTube, and then bring back the conversation into therapy, for a session, just for the parents to activate different conversations about like, what do they take from that? What did it bring up for them? More vocabulary, maybe? Are there more questions for them that they need to bring into therapy about their kids and their kids' experiences?

[00:44:46] Charlie Ocean: You're so fucking sweet. My last question for you, cause I'm - (laughs) my, my last question for you, cause I'm feeling like being a little bit of a shit, just, just cause we're, just cause we're so close. (laughs) I feel comfortable doing this, but -

[00:45:05] Ed Carratalà: Go for it. Go for it.

[00:45:07] Charlie Ocean: Yeah. So like, normally when I have guests come back, I don't have them come up with another allyship tip, but what I'm going to do, to be a little shit is, your tip, from the last episode was to be proud of the mistakes that you make because they can become teachable moments.

And I want to pose that to you as a question. What is a mistake that you've made maybe in the past year or so that has become a teachable moment for you?

[00:45:35] Ed Carratalà: Oh, damn. I love the question because it's making me think, because I've had so many, or I feel like I could potentially have so many. Because it's, it's been a year, it's been a fucking whole year, in so many ways, and with the same idea of what I shared before about like changing my, my tone in Argentina, for example.

Because I might have not been in, in the best, headspace or emotional space, I may have allowed uncomfortable conversations to continue and it's been beautiful to learn about that and how I revisit conversations afterwards. Maybe in the university context, maybe in the personal life, in terms of like, again, how am I not showing up for myself or for others? And how have I revisited then, because of that conversations - for example, I do recall this very specific moment with, with my boss in the university or, or, yeah, my boss, where allowing myself to not always be ready for conversations and holding space for that, at the same time, making sure that I do address, some conversations that need to be addressed.

Because when talking, for example, about this year's class of Affirmative and Family Therapy, we did have a conversation with my boss, and she was very insisting of make sure that you're academic, and you don't talk about your personal life, and don't make this your battleground kind of a thing, and my first reaction was like, yeah, 100 percent for sure, but then a couple days later, I called her back and was like, wait a minute, no.

That's not okay because this is my experience and I cannot separate my own experience from what I'm sharing because it's part of myself and it's part of what makes me a good professor. The way that I show up as myself, not as this book. The way that my students then give me feedback of Because I show up as myself, they feel so much more comfortable having questions for me and having questions for how I work.

How does this show up in my work? How do I deal with this very difficult situation? Because it can potentially infiltrate your personal life kind of a thing. And so if I don't show up as myself when talking about like queer therapy, I am then, A, fucking up as a professor, because I'm distancing myself in a way that makes me less a worse professor in the way that I work, and B, not being an ally for myself or other people like me, and not showing up for myself, so.

That's, that's an example.

[00:48:18] Charlie Ocean: I appreciate your, your honesty in that, cause yeah, we have to code switch sometimes. I also get how, in the moment, especially if you're scattered, cause you have all these things going on, how you could easily say like, Yep, okay, I agree with you, but then Thinking about it more later, because I think you and I overthink.

There used to be this like meme on the internet somewhere floating around like at least 20 years ago, it's that's like, and I don't even know where this originates from, but it was like, I don't think I think too much. What do you think about me thinking? And I'm surprised I could still say that almost flawlessly.

So go me, but thank you, Ed.

[00:48:58] Ed Carratalà: Thank you so much, my sweet Charlie.

[00:49:00] Charlie Ocean: Thank you so much, my sweet Ed. I'm hanging stuff now before we get even more cheesy and mushy. I have so much love for Ed. If he hadn't found the podcast and reached out to me via Instagram. I'd be missing out on one of the best humans to come into my life, truly.

Several people are in my life now, and some of my best friends, because of the podcast bringing us together, directly and indirectly. I have made so many connections because of allyship as a verb. And I never expected that as part of what could happen when I started this project a few years ago. Every time you let me know what the podcast means to you, or how an episode touched you, it really lifts my spirit and makes my heart happy.

So, thank you, endlessly, to all of you who do that, including the folks who help to make this happen, like Molly, our audio engineer, Veronica, who transcribes the episodes, And Kit, who designed our fucking awesome logo. So, I'd like to express deep gratitude to all of you. Thank you for all of the ways you encourage me to keep going with the podcast and support me, period.

Thank you. Visit AllyshipIsAVerb.com for any resources in a full transcript of the episode.