[00:00:00] Chris Angel Murphy: Well, hello there. I'm Chris Angel and my pronouns are they/them. Welcome to Allyship is a Verb, a podcast for people practicing allyship for the LGBTQ+ community and beyond!

[00:00:25] MJ Jupitus: Hi, I'm MJ Jupitus and my pronouns are they/them.

[00:00:30] Chris Angel Murphy: MJ is an excellent human and friend I met through Instagram not that long ago, actually.

This was another one of those conversations that I had to cut so much out because of time limitations. Basically, I know that listening to a podcast for an hour is already hard for some folks, (laughs) and I'm not trying to lose listeners if I go over that. So, while I imagine there would be some folks who would love it, I imagine many more wouldn't. So, that said - yeah, had to cut a lot of stuff out.

But, MJ is a movement specialist based out of Arizona. And yes, we will find out what the hell a movement specialist is. (laughs)

But, two quick shoutouts! I wanna say, thank you Allie! (voice echoes) Allie has become a monthly supporter: I appreciate you, friend. And, I'd also like to say, shoutout to Theresa (voice echoes) of Reimagym in Medford, Massachusetts.

Alright, here are three self-reflection questions to think about during the episode. Be sure to stick around after the conversation for three more.

1. Do I think there are good and bad foods?

2. Have I ever punished my body for existing?

3. How do I define health?

And now, the conversation, and a content warning for disordered eating.

You're a queer, nonbinary, and neurodivergent movement specialist. What do those intersections mean to you?

[00:02:19] MJ Jupitus: I guess they just mean me to me. (both laugh) Yeah, I'm queer in my sexuality, I'm nonbinary in my gender, I'm neurodivergent in my brain, and I'm a movement specialist in my participation of capitalism. So I don't know what I would be like without all of them, at the same time.

I didn't always know I was nonbinary, I didn't always know I was neurodivergent, but now that I do have that language and understanding and education around those things, they have always been part of me, always been there, and encompassed who I am.

[00:02:54] Chris Angel Murphy: It makes a huge difference to know that about yourself, like all of those things.

[00:02:58] MJ Jupitus: Yeah.

[00:03:00] Chris Angel Murphy: On March 28th, you turned 30. You wrote a post on Instagram saying, "Woke up happy to be here. Happy to be soft and even happier that that is true. Here's to this next decade." And then the tada emoji, although I don't think people know it as the tada emoji, (laughs) but like, it's like, I don't know, the celebration one.

You discuss softness a lot on your Instagram page. Can you share more about what you mean by that? Because I feel like I've experienced you using it in at least two different ways.

[00:03:34] MJ Jupitus: I think one day I was just thinking about my body, about my attitude to myself and how much it's changed over the years. And realized there's this big push to be kind to ourselves, to work on being kinder to ourselves and that we deserve kindness. And that's absolutely true. But then I was thinking about what type of kindness - I think there's a lot of variety in how you can be kind. And then I think I just realized that the kind of kindness (laughs) that I want for myself is more softness, and this approach of I am physically soft and allowing myself to be physically soft is like a mental softness; a gentleness with myself as well.

And then I just kind of started thinking about how if we focused on softness as a stepping stone to kindness - again, I think, I think our previous perceptions of experiences can color current experiences for them. So I think a lot of people find it hard to be kind to themselves, because they've never been kind to themselves. But have you tried being soft with yourself and in being soft and gentle that's a form of kindness and then you can build that into other kindnesses.

And just how we're so - "we" to me being the queer nonbinary and trans community - we experience so much hardness, both externally and internally, that then the idea of flipping that and being soft just was really appealing.

I just found myself saying, "things were really hard, things were really hard," again and again and again, and then I was like, "Well then, let's be soft. If everything is hard. Let's do the opposite."

[00:05:30] Chris Angel Murphy: I love that.

[00:05:30] MJ Jupitus: Yeah.

[00:05:31] Chris Angel Murphy: That's like one binary I can get behind. (both laugh)

[00:05:34] MJ Jupitus: Soft or hard. (laughs)

[00:05:37] Chris Angel Murphy: Yeah. And the answer will vary depending on the context.

[00:05:41] MJ Jupitus: Absolutely. Absolutely.

[00:05:43] Chris Angel Murphy: That's where I will leave that little number (laughs) but - I'm still waking up, I'm feeling feisty, spicy - I don't even know. Things are happening. Alright.

The other kind of softness is related to body type. I've noticed that you also proudly proclaim to have a soft body. What does that mean to you?

[00:06:07] MJ Jupitus: So a lot of my experience growing up was around exercise and food restriction and making my body - kind of having this approach of "no pain, no gain," and "your body's a machine." Hard muscles and toned physique; being really hard and rough with, with myself, with my own body. And so after top surgery -

[00:06:39] Chris Angel Murphy: (singing voice with bossa nova style accompanyment) Are you having surgery? Indulging curiosity? Any common question, for trans and nonbinary people longing to be free. Remember dear friends, it's not a casual ask. Respect and understanding, let's have some class. Don't be an ass. This gentle reminder, here for you: we deserve privacy, and so do you. Legal and medical questions let's not pursue, for trans, nonbinary, and cis folk too. It's rare and unlikely you'll need to.

No need to ask, don't be an ass. No need to ask, don't be an ass. No need to ask, don't be an ass.

Our validity as humans, as vibrant as can be, are not determined by anything medically. Questions should be careful and kind. Respect and empathy, let's keep that in mind. If you have a question, make it about support; that's the way to be a great sport.

No need to ask. Don't be an ass No need to ask Don't be an ass. No need to ask. Don't be an ass. No need to ask Don't be an ass. No need to ask. (music and singing voice fading)

This PSA was brought to you by the people who let curiosity get the best of them and ask trans and nonbinary people invasive questions.

Although my dear friend MJ is willing to provide this information, I wouldn't want to ask about it, even as a nonbinary person myself. And, if we are going to be a great sport, then you can ask, "Do you have a ride to and from surgery? Do you have enough people coming in to check in on you? Would you like me to cook up some meals you can reheat?" And such other offers of support. Also, you can congratulate people.

And now, back to our regular programming.

[00:09:47] MJ Jupitus: Cause turns out, just didn't want tits: (laughs) surprise, surprise, that was it. (both laugh) Post-op surgery, I stopped engaging in those behaviors as much because I didn't have the dysphoria that was driving them. Also in ADHD link, I didn't need the self regulation that again, I was using movement to punish my body for existing and as a form of self regulation without knowing either of those things to be true, but that's what was happening.

So treating myself better in my brain, better with my knowledge of ADHD and making accommodations for myself that I need. Having top surgery, gender affirming care. I didn't participate in those really destructive behaviors anymore. And as a result, my body got softer and I love that it's, it is an outward expression.

of how far I've come, if you like the language, how much I've healed, and it's just a fact. I think a lot of people could view that as a negative experience, the whole you've let yourself go kind of thing. And I'm like, this is me showing up for myself. This is me coming through for myself and to have that be such an outward Thing.

It's my body. People perceive it. Don't always wish they would, but they do. It's an outward expression of me. To be happy about that, and to have that as a permanent experience of myself is... I never thought I'd have either of those things.

Before we go too away from the birthday post, I wanted to ask, so specific to the post and what you wrote for the caption, I feel like...

I understand what you're saying in the post, but I don't want to create a story that isn't there. So can you share what's underneath what you said specifically in the caption?

Yeah, I unfortunately think a lot of folks will be able to identify this within our community. I didn't think I'd be here. I didn't think I'd make it to 30.

This is great. I, like, I truly never envisioned my life beyond my 20s. And so to be 30, to be in an entirely new decade, and to be in this decade in the best mental and safest physical place. Referring to my body, not my actual location, I'm in Arizona, that's very debatable on safety. Um, but in my body, in my mind, in myself, to have made it to 30 and to be arriving, it's phenomenal.

And some days I am a little, I'd say I'm a little like, I don't know what I'm doing because I didn't... I truly didn't think I'd make it. Potentially quite cheesy, but we deserve a bit of cheese. Every day's a gift. You know what I mean? Under the crushing experience of

capitalism, but in the positive.

I thought that's what you were saying. The way you had described it was interesting because it's one of those things that when you're in community, you can kind of read between the lines, but. Yeah, so I appreciate you sharing more about that. Not that you have to pick one, but I know sometimes people will say it's like, flirty or dirty 30.

Are you? So would it just be soft 30? I don't know. Yeah, yeah. Soft

all the way. The 30s are gonna be the softest decade. That's what I hope for them. I hope it's just full of gentle softness around me for me. A hundred percent. Yeah. Not that flirty, not that dirty,

soft and gentle. The softness has reminded me of when I was first taking on the identity of lesbian, which was by way of peer pressure, a lot of people called me a butch lesbian.

And. I also remember experiencing a lot of people calling me like a soft butch, but it felt like in a way that, and you're nodding your head, it felt like in a way that felt diminishing or emasculating, which was weird, even though maybe it did better describe my experience at that particular time because it was the best language I had.

But like, no one ever called me like a soft tomboy or anything, you know, it was only like particular to the lesbian community. And then like, I don't know. Then I learned about the term Stone Butch, and you know, that's a whole other, like, journey there. I've found that it's taken me transitioning to come back to that softness.

Because before, even though it wasn't my goal to be masculine, because I didn't quite know what was going on and people would still probably try to describe me as either transmasculine or masculine. It felt weird because like, anytime someone picked up on my femininity, it felt like a target and it hurt.

But then also, if someone tried to, like, I don't know, give me some sort of scale of how butch I was or whatever, like that also didn't feel good. Yeah, it wasn't until I could, especially like more specifically medically transition and Really lean into sensory experiences and like how I want to show up in the world that it became easier to embrace things like softness.

I don't know why it took getting there, I guess, other than, like, it just felt like people kept comparing me to things I didn't need to be compared by. I also remember when I was a quote unquote butch person dating another butch lesbian. Then it was like, oh, well, who's the butcher one? Just a binary scale, isn't it?

And again, trying to emasculate me, which I don't know. It's language is tricky here, but like, that's how it felt. It's like, okay, but you're not as butch as they are. And it's like, who cares? Are we supposed to like battle it out for like biggest butch? I don't know. So like, it just felt weird. And I'm curious to know, especially since you nodded earlier, have you had any.

experience, like with this, did any of that resonate with you? Oh yeah,

I think one of the things I've grown to appreciate so much about our friendship, Chris Angel, is how similar our experiences are, like, as soon as you said soft butch and I know I like nodded and my eyes flared cause I was called that so much, but never asked if that's what I wanted.

I was just told that's what I was. And I was like, yeah, I don't like that. You know, society was like, this is the box you fit into though. So please stay in it. And I was like. I don't want this box. Um, yeah, complete. Yeah, exactly, right? Just very similar experience. And this is one of my biggest frustrations with gender affirming care that it is still viewed as so binary.

Kind of even within our own community. The amount of times I've been referred to as transmask or tagged in posts for trans men, or I was, I've been emailed about trans men specific things. And it's just like, that's not me. Thrilled for the people it is, but it's not me. Removing the anatomy I had on my chest was not an attempt to masculinize myself.

It was to take away the most external, feminizing, identifying thing about my body. And that's more defeminizing than increasing masculine. And I don't know where that's so hard to grasp, but people assume there's just the assumptions and the experience of if you've got short hair, if you're not wearing very outwardly feminine clothing, again, this is the box that you're in.

And it's just not, it's not the case. It's not my experience. It's not how I see myself and yeah, absolutely the same lesbian experience I had. Self butch, masculine, the guy in the relationship, all of that gross stuff. Mm hmm. Every time. Yeah.

In every one. Yeah. I don't want to like, say that the lesbian community, number one, hasn't come a long way, and that number two, like, that it's easy for us to generalize for everyone, that, you know, that's like how it is no matter what.

It's just like, it did feel... Especially back then, a lot like, uh, I don't know, one of those like Russian dolls or something where it's just like you can't just claim one title, like you just have to go deeper because then it's like, well, are you a soft butch? And it's like, I don't know, ultra soft butch or like, it's like, are we toilet paper?

Like,

what flavor of butch are you? None of them. That doesn't, so yeah, but like it, you. You know, it took me longer to try to articulate. Yeah, it wasn't that I was trying to, trying to become more masculine. I was just trying to like, become more. What I would describe as like more androgynous or, and especially remove things that parts of my body, you know, that caused me awful sensory experiences.

It's a lot easier for me to say that now, but it took me figuring out I'm neuroqueer to be able to say that. So before I would say, yeah, I want to be a little bit more masculine and all, cause that, that was as much as I had, that was like the best I could describe my experience. But now that. I understand everything's coming through the lens of autism first, for me, that, that changes things immensely, because, yeah, now I can just say, no, there, there's sensory experiences, that's what motivates my decisions, especially, especially with my gender, and anything related to that, but I, I'm more of like, I haven't really said this, and I, I don't think I've even shared it on the podcast yet, but like, My experience with my gender in particular would probably best be described as agender.

I just, I just say nonbinary though, because I don't want to have to get into it with everyone else. Or like, not everyone's going to understand that I feel more like a gender blob or galaxy or something, you know? Like, I just, because I, I also don't want it to be I'll just quickly say, there's a lot of tools out there to help describe one's gender, sexuality, etc.

And one of the more popular ones, I feel, is the genderbred person. And then there's another version of that that's with the unicorn. I don't like using that version unless it's going to be for kids or people working with kids, because I feel like that just is kind of cuter for them. However, I tend to not use it with adults because I don't I don't want to be compared to like mythical creatures that don't exist or something, like it feels like a weird othering that like hurts us more than anything else.

So yeah, I'm not going to go around telling everyone I feel like a gender blob or something like, cause not everyone's going to understand that.

When I was growing up, and I did get misgendered as a boy a lot, I had short hair, no interest in wearing, again, what we would perceive as girls clothes. I've got broad shoulders.

I'm built, again, one would say, fairly masculine or androgynous. And it always upset me. And then I started, like, I got my ears pissed, and I tried to wear eyeliner. I tried to present more femininely outward. To stop it happening, and it didn't. Also, that challenged my acceptance of my transness, because I know so many people that would love when they got misgendered, growing up, that loved that opportunity.

To be perceived as not, was pushed upon them. And the fact I hated, I hated it. I was like, see, I can't be trans, because like, that brought me no joy. But, because it highlighted one or the other. It was Sarah or Miss, and I'm neither, so it makes sense that I hate both. And again, that's not going to be everyone's experience, some...

nonbinary people might love one or the other. Again, agreed upon gendered language is absolutely fine within a nonbinary relationship. I'm my wife's wife. I'm not her spouse. I'm her wife. That is consensual gendered language between us. It's how she introduces me, but I'm not my parent's daughter. I'm their child and that's okay, and it's okay to have those kind of conflicting, well, this is okay here, but not okay here as long as It's consensually used and agreed upon and respected.

[00:22:25] Chris Angel Murphy: For people whose minds just, like, hurt right now, how would you describe the differences there for yourself? Like, what makes wife feel okay that, like, daughter wouldn't, for example? I mean, if you feel like you can. For me and my

[00:22:44] MJ Jupitus: wife, there's a fairly solid reason, which is, for us, this is not the case.

Everyone would never put this experience... But for us, if she used partner or spouse or something considered more neutral in language, it feels like it de queers the relationship because then it feels like hiding, to us it feels like hiding the queerness of our relationship, which we have no interest in doing and thankfully we're in a place where...

We don't have to, but for me, daughter has, there's no, I don't have a queer relationship with my parents, I guess, in the same way that I do with my wife. So, wife, being my wife's wife, feels more queer to me than being her partner or spouse, but being my parents.

[00:23:44] Chris Angel Murphy: I feel like the way I relate to what you just shared is that I still have F on everything. Number one, in terms of things like healthcare, unfortunately, gender matters, or sex, really. And so, If I were to say I were a man, that wouldn't be accurate, and not, you know, a lot of places or providers affirm nonbinary identities.

And, I mean, we can even also go off on a whole tangent about intersex people and, like, their experiences with the medical system, but, like, I would be denied the care that I need sometimes. Like, so I don't want to have trouble trying to access, let's say like a pap smear if I need it because they're like, Oh, well you're a man.

But again, I wouldn't ever put male on anything cause it's a lie. Just like F is however, ideally I would put X given the limited system we have right now, but there are not enough places that recognize X in it. It literally puts a target on me. So, I've been really, really struggling only more recently with it, and deciding if I want to change that or not.

And... It's been weighing heavily on me, and so, at the end of the day, I have to decide what's best for me. However, I do like that there's F on there for two reasons. Number one, it queers me, because then we have to halt and have a conversation. And number two, even if I'm potentially in an unsafe situation, I could shrug and say, Oh, it's a clerical error.

I keep meaning to get it changed, but I'm lazy, you know, like if I had to hide and like have someone assume I was a man and not correct them. But then there's also times I want to be able to pull it out and use the safety of having F on there for like different things, like being allowed in certain spaces or something.

And like, I don't know if I had to emergency go to a bathroom or whatever. But I also don't want to use that to like hurt our community in any way. So it's like I have a very complicated relationship with it. And. I wish we didn't have sex or gender on anything because really the only people who need to know are ourselves, maybe any partners that we might be intimate with, and then medical providers as necessary, no one else needs to know.

And I feel like it's this archaic system that's on all of these important documents that was under the guise of security before, but no longer serves us. Now I think it's the opposite. So, I mean, that's my hot take. Like, let's just. Get rid of it. However, I know maybe there's some people out there that that's like something that really affirms them but like It comes back to the whole conflating sex and gender thing for me.

Also, like, is it affirming because it now says something that's more aligned for you? Or, you know, because of what it used to say if someone changed their documents? Or, you know, is it something that you really do need somewhere for it to say that, like on an official thing? If at best then, maybe it's like, give people the option to opt out, because I would like to unsubscribe.

Thank you.

[00:26:56] MJ Jupitus: Yeah, no, absolutely. I kind of get in a similar way. My legal name, I'm not going to do a name change. I'm an expat. I say expat because I feel like that is the white experience of immigration. And I, I do think it's fairly important to distinguish the privilege that comes with being a white immigrant.

And so I use expat. It'll be way fussier for me to do a name change for all my British documents and all the immigration paperwork and everything. So I'm going to keep my legal name what it is, but as such, it's on every document I have. I had a wonderful experience once going into a store where they required ID, and the person at the desk looked at my ID, looked up at me, and went, Is this the name you like to use?

And I went, No, it's not! And they were like, Whatever name you want. Like, it was just, that was really affirming. We put a lot of information on a lot of documents that can be really challenging for the queer experience.

[00:27:59] Chris Angel Murphy: TM, trademark. Cause there's only one, right? You know, at the top, we talked about you being a movement specialist, just sort of threw it in really quick there.

Following your account was the first time I'd ever heard that title in my life. I was like, what does that mean? Do you just not like. the term personal trainer or like what's going on there, you know, because sometimes we'll like come up with new words. So, um, what the hell is a movement specialist? And I say that with all of the love and respect and kindness and

[00:28:32] MJ Jupitus: sadness.

100% know that and feel it. You kind of hit the nail on the head. In my experience, and in the experience I have in this industry, I unfortunately think personal training can do way more harm than good. I think it is more based for fitness arenas. And not everyone's movement experience is fitness. Based.

Then number two, I can't call myself a physical therapist because you need a certain degree and Qualification for that and I'm not gonna get in more debt for that qualification But the majority of work I do is more in line with physical therapy is a lot more pain management based So I just found myself stuck in this space of I guess on paper what I'm doing is personal training But it's also way more akin to physical therapy, but I can't use that term The other term feels tainted to me because again, I don't necessarily have an interest in fitness and exercise.

I have more of an interest in movement and the body and the brain. It went through a lot of different variations of like body and movement, specialist, body and health specialist. I've really veered away from using health as a term and, and wellness. I think there's a lot of problematic stuff over there.

Oh, well, they're loaded. Not everyone can be healthy by experience of their chronic conditions and the pursuit, the I. I'm trying to They're loaded! They're crunchy! They're super loaded! Sorry! Yeah! Are you trying to calm down? But yeah, no, fuck them. I think they're really loaded. Um, Yeah, I think it's really loaded.

I think it's the pursuit of health is just the new veering into diet culture. It's just same shit, different language, right? Yeah. So I try and really veer away from that. So, I ultimately realize that my focus is movement, and that's what my education has been in for the last seven, eight years now. So I specialize in movement form a movement specialist.

I mean, even my degree, my, my undergrad and master's is in theater, but my master's was in directing, but I specifically directed physical theater and physical movement based performance. So even though my degree kind of has nothing to do with the qualifications you'd get in personal training or physical therapy, I have always been pulled towards exploring movement and directing people in how to move and ways to move back then for.

performance, and nowadays for their own empowerment and pain reduction and gender

[00:31:12] Chris Angel Murphy: experience. What's cool about your account is that you offer some examples of movements, like if someone has tightness in their neck or things like that, and you also have photos of you being a possibility model for other people who may share your identities, but also for normalizing softness and I mean, again, because capitalism.

You and I have talked about as entrepreneurs or whatever that, you know, like, well, what the hell do we put on social when we're supposed to be, like, supposedly selling our services and stuff, and it feels gross, but we also have to, like, pay rent and shit, so, like, I love what you post, though, because I've, and we've had a conversation about this before, initially, When people started posting especially like top surgery scars and stuff I really only saw certain body types doing that and then it felt like it was promoting thinness or I don't know certain kinds of I don't know muscle physique or whatever, you know and I I just I really struggled with that and Also, because of capitalism, I, you know, this whole thing of like, quote unquote professionalism, and I, I had this original idea that like, okay, if we queered professionalism, what would that mean?

And eventually I just came to the conclusion that means we just like, get the fuck rid of it, because... Professionalism is just like another tool or arm of capitalism and, or capitalism, however, I want to say it. I don't like you saying it like that. I'm going to say it like that always now. Yeah. Yeah. It's just really interesting, but I appreciate what you do.

And I'm, just to take us on a silly question that is not Leaving my brain, thanks ADHD. Have you thought about doing a post of movement for doom scrolling? So like for when we're just like stuck with our head down.

[00:33:21] MJ Jupitus: I've considered doing posts for doom scrolling and for hyperfixations, like small movements you can do whilst you're hyperfixating on something.

Cause so many hyperfixations kind of happen in front of you, like video game, phone based stuff, research on the computer, art, crafting, gardening. It's just usually a hand based task happening in front of you. So yeah, I keep wanting to do posts on movements you can do whilst hyperfixating to reduce... The pain you feel when you come out of the focus and you're like, Oh, okay.

I haven't moved for five hours. Or like you said, doom scrolling. I get in my way every time with those more niche posts. I'm like, they're needed. I know it's good information. Do it. And then I don't, and I keep not, but I just get in my own way of like, Oh, it's really these posts that again, that social media trap of capitalism, like these ones do better and.

People seem to want more of this and you get really stuck in battling those algorithms. Which I'm trying really hard to let go and just make the posts that I feel I enjoy making and that I would want to see. That's what the posts of my body, sorry, it feels weird to say, it's what they are, just feels weird to say it that way.

But the posts of my body... are for, like you said, are for that representation. I have had so many people message me to be like, I have a better idea of what my top surgery is going to look like because our bodies are similar. And that means so much to me because I had no idea before that. And that's all I wanted.

I had no idea what my top surgery would look like because I didn't see bodies like mine. And also the importance of that your body will change. Again, if like me, you were experiencing Any degree of disordered eating pre top surgery, your body will probably soften post top surgery if those practices significantly reduce because the cause of them was rooted in dysphoria, which is reduced because of your top surgery, right?

Which again, I think is why I go hard on softness. Because, again, I just don't think it's talked about enough in the gender affirming care experience of how, how your body changes beyond the, for those who have access to it and want it, the surgical interventions kind of thing. Most of what I do is what I wish I had.

I wish I'd seen more bodies like mine. I'd probably understand myself before my mid twenties. I wish more movement information was more centered in building understanding with your body, trying stuff out, rather than changing it inherently. I wish stuff was more... accessible again in the kinds of movements.

I see so many videos that like, try this beginner routine for tight hips, and I'm like, that's not a beginner routine. Jumping about, doing your splits against the wall, like all these things. I'm like, that's not beginner. That's like professional. What are you doing? And so, that's why my movement posts, I always try and have this degree of Offering options, offering adjustments, highlighting the different positions it can be done in, because I think if we make things accessible for everyone, it's for everyone, right?

I think accessibility should be at the forefront of most social change when trying to battle capitalism. You deserve the opportunities to explore movement and how to move your body without. Feeling like you're being complicated. Like I work with so many neurodivergent, like I'd say, if it's not a hundred percent, it's definitely like the high nineties of my clientele are queer and neurodivergent, that's who I seek to work with, queer and neurodivergent people.

And it is so important to me to work with people on their sensory issues, on their introspection, on their proprioception, a workout can be incredibly. over stimulating activity. It also can be really under-stimulating, depending on the sensory seekingness of the individual. I wish so many more people would make sessions, classes, personal training, whatever you're doing in the movement world, consider how uncomfortable you're potentially making your neurodivergent clients in.

If you're not having these conversations, if you're not being like, Hey, what do you need right now? Like I always make sure I ask my clients what their sensory needs are. I have some that hate sweating. And they were like, I know this is really silly to say, like, how could I possibly like do workouts without sweating?

I was like, really possibly, really easily. The only sweat you'll experience is from like the heat of the desert in any of our sessions. You're not going to sweat from exertion at all. And they're all like, but then I won't be making any progress. I was like, you absolutely will. You're gonna make the progress you can make.

We will see if it helps with pre I try not to talk in absolutes So to be like you will reduce pain We're gonna see because your body's gonna tell me what works for it and you can absolutely do that in Ways that don't sensually. I hate the pushing. I hate the pushing through. We have to push through So

[00:38:21] Chris Angel Murphy: fucking much.

No pain, no gain.

[00:38:24] MJ Jupitus: Fuck Chris Angel, I will come through the screen. Oh my god, like I hate it so much. And under capitalism, we just, we push through everything. How much discomfort we had to push through growing up queer, how much discomfort we have to push through as neurodivergent people participating in a very ableist, capitalist society.

The time you take with your body and yourself and moving, you don't have to push through that. That's a time for softness. That softness might be a hard workout, that softness might be five minutes breathing practice, that softness might be eye movement exercises so that you can do your hyperfixation for longer.

You know what I mean? Work with yourself rather than against yourself. And movement, movement and exercise are just so used against ourselves. And fitness spaces are so awful. I hate it. I'm not about it. I'm tired of it. I would like to see less of that.

[00:39:26] Chris Angel Murphy: When I was younger, by fifth grade, I was in a back brace because I had fractured a disc in my back.

When I went to the hospital and later the doctor, they were like, did you fall out of a tree? Which could have been possible because my ass was like, my ass was a mess. I couldn't skateboard. I couldn't do anything without hurting myself, like either getting sprained or getting a broken bone or something, but like,

[00:39:51] MJ Jupitus: Really, really common in a neurodivergent experience.

It's a proprioceptive issue in the brain. tons behind it.

[00:39:58] Chris Angel Murphy: Yeah, I was accident prone. That was the best language I had at that time. But what happened was that, MJ, without realizing it, I, my grandma had to call me out on this. And I say that in like a loving way. She had to like point it out to me. But she was just, from very early on, she was like, why do you keep hiding your chest?

And I didn't have an answer for her. And this was back again in elementary school. But what I realized when I started paying attention to my more was that I would pull my the bottom of my shirt out a bit to try to like, tug it away from me so it wasn't hugging me where I didn't want it to hug me. I was wearing baggy clothing to try to like hide my chest and I was also hunching over, you know, almost like as if I was about to go into fetal position or something.

I was walking around like that forever and I honestly think that's how I fucked up the disc in my back because I did not have any sort of injury where I was anywhere near falling out of a tree or anything like that. I just, I feel like it was over time fucking my back up from Yeah, from having such horrible posture from trying to hide my chest.

And like, it was intense, like the lengths I went through to do that for the years, especially before we had binders or before I could even get access to those, or again, even make the connection that I was hiding my chest. I really try and

[00:41:09] MJ Jupitus: bring levity to my sessions. I feel like if you can laugh whilst you're working out, that's one of the ultimate expressions of.

Fuck you to the fitness industry because again so much of it is so serious and you got to take this seriously and you got to like put your head down and be having a bad time and I'm like I love to make my clients barely laugh. Laughing with my clients is one of my greatest joys and They know that like that is an aspect of working with me.

Is this again this kind of like hey We're gonna be like soft, goofy, funny And you're still gonna like get what you need out of this kind of thing. It doesn't have to be Serious. Of course, taking things seriously that are serious, not complete unawareness there, but... Of course. So the joke, the joke I make is queer posture.

There is a like spinal position that I'm like, you've got queer posture. You have been making yourself small for so much of your life. Your body's like, yeah, this is what we do now. This is the position we're in. And the amount of like really messed up. backs, spines, breathing restriction. When you think about how much you hunch forward, you're literally reducing your capacity for air.

And if you can't breathe well, your brain is going to constantly consider it threatening, put you more in the fight or flight that you're probably already in because of how traumatizing again, shouldn't be, but currently is traumatizing a neurodivergent and queer upbringing can be. And it's just all these things just pack on to like, we're just doing such damage to our bodies and ourselves and our brains.

And I think a big part of that is the lack of information on what you can do to take care of yourself during those times. I previously have, I had a very, negative approach to binders for a while, because I was told by a trans man trainer. So he was my trainer. And as I was getting into being a movement professional, he told me people should never work out with a binder, that it's one of the most dangerous things to do to yourself.

And I was like, Oh, he knows. Cause at the time I'm not. Gender expansive. I'm a cis lesbian just trying to like do better for folks, but I hear this piece of information I'm like, this is the law. This is it. And I unfortunately I put a client through I was like Hey, I don't want you to wear a binder when we do our sessions like we can look at really tight Compressive things that just are not binders and I regret that beyond Compare like I think that's one of the worst Decisions I've ever made in my work life and I hate that I did that and he still is a very different Not worse as in I wouldn't blame him for not being friends with me after that like fucking legit He would have every right to be like that's not an okay thing to put on me But I thought I was in the right from coming from a safety perspective.

Fuckin fuck that. Again, that's a very binary view of things. There's absolutely safe things you can do whilst wearing a binder. Is it safer not to? Sure. For the person's mental well being and mental state, I don't think any physical safety is. It's worth that jeopardy, and that discomfort, and there's absolutely ways you can work around it.

So again, these kind of like, hard and fast experiences, they can be soft and slow. And just, I wish more people knew how to advocate for themselves in movement spaces, I wish more people got more opportunity. To learn about how bodies and brains can work, especially from a neurodivergent perspective, and ways you can treat yourself that don't put you at a different type of risk.

[00:44:57] Chris Angel Murphy: Yeah, and I know that something like top surgery is extreme. Yeah. And I know that there's a lot of people who are against it, and you know, for me, it was so much better. Like, I didn't realize, it's just like over time, It can be hard to see what's happening to you when you're living it every day and it's only incrementally, like, getting worse or something.

So, like, it takes a while to catch up and be like, wait, why does this hurt so much? Like, binding was worse for me. Like, I wore the correct size binder. But, you know, they had all these rules you could only wear at eight hours a day and stuff. What the hell am I supposed to do? Who has an eight hour day?

Capitalism. Fucking capitalism, right? Like, who has an eight hour day? I was a full time grad student. I was working and, you know, like, it wasn't until I had top surgery I realized how much I was putting my body through. I had to learn how to breathe again when you were talking about like lung capacity and shit.

Like I had to like physically remind myself and push past the normal limit I had and I stopped having a lot of indigestion issues. Number one just because I was happier with like my chest being flatter and stuff like that alone like reduced a lot of stress. Like a great amount, but also because it was also pushing on my stomach and shit.

I couldn't have like, you know, as much food as I would like and have like filling foods because the fucking binder and like I had the one that was longer that would also like dig into my sides and stuff too. So like, yeah, like, oh my gosh, it was weird actually. Like thinking back to like sensory experiences and now I understand what was happening.

But like the first time I wore a shirt without a binder. I was so uncomfortable. I wasn't used to it rubbing against my skin. Your skin, right?

[00:46:35] MJ Jupitus: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's, it's so challenging, isn't it? I remember the first time I got a binder, I got this like beautiful purple one from, uh, from the bigger binder companies, who was like, okay, this is weird, but then put the shirt on over top and was like, Okay, so I'll be wearing this all the time then, and literally from the first day I tried, I'm a very, when I'm in, I'm in person, so I realized I was nonbinary on my 26th birthday in a therapy session, because queer people go to therapy on their birthdays, and Once I had that realisation, I took a moment to process it.

I was really anxious about telling my wife, because again, we were a lesbian couple, married, and I was about to be like, JK, sorry, no, you're not. And like, I was really nervous about that. She was phenomenal. She always has been. But once I was like, okay, then I asked like a small group of people, please use they, them.

Bigger group of people, family. I didn't like, okay, maybe I'll wear the binder once a week. I was like, I wear a binder every day now. I am nonbinary. Like, once I kind of get there, then I'm there. And it's just... You told the disclaimer, it's like you said, don't wear it for more than eight hours. But again... Be realistic about people's lives and experience.

Yes, from a safety perspective, tell people you really shouldn't wear it for more than eight hours, but if you're in a situation where you have to, here are some things you can do to help reduce aggravation, to improve mobility, to reduce pain. You know what I mean? Like, provide more. Be considerate of situations people are going to end up in, be it situational or their own choice.

And home reduction. Yeah. Oldest to say home reduction,

[00:48:22] Chris Angel Murphy: I guess. I wasn't about to, like, go home, take off my binder, let myself breathe for a while, and then put it back on, and then go out again. That just wasn't realistic. It's the equivalent of, like, folks who may wear bras. Once you take that off for the day, I'm sorry.

All other plans are cancelled. I'm not going back out. I'm not getting back into that thing. Absolutely not. Never. Uh oh. No. Day over. Sorry.

[00:48:47] MJ Jupitus: Done. No, no, absolutely. Just like, that shit is so hard to like, put on, take off. It's like wrestling. You'd be sweating by the time you get your shirt on, and then you're like, Oh, you can't take a full breath in because it's so tight, and then you

[00:49:02] Chris Angel Murphy: just go.

The first time I got a binder, it was a hand me down from a genderqueer mentor I was very lucky to have when I was in my early 20s. And when I tell you I was in my bathroom alone, trying to put it over my head, I was flinging for my life. MJ, I got stuck in the binder. I got so stuck in the binder to the point where I started to go in crisis mode and I was about to have to like call my dad or grandma to be like, get me out of this fucking thing.

I was so exhausted after that. I finally got out of it. I just realized, okay, we step into binders. We don't, we will never again try to put it over our head. It is not like a tank top or something or like a training bra. Or a sports bra or any of that, like we need to step into it. And then it was fine, but Oh my God, the flailing.

I'm so glad that was like one of those moments that like no one else saw. Like it was just awful.

[00:49:52] MJ Jupitus: And, and, and people get hurt in those situations. I've worked with people who have like, I've messed up my shoulder from. Wearing a binder. If we're not even talking about like the ribcage compression, that spinal movement reduction.

Those are the kind of main areas of binder issues. But you can like hurt yourself, injure yourself putting them on and again, there should just be more options, more information. It is not an accessible thing, but did binding save my life? Yeah, for sure

[00:50:22] Chris Angel Murphy: for me. What's one allyship tip you'd like everyone listening to consider?

[00:50:29] MJ Jupitus: Don't use moralistic language when you're talking about food and your body. There is no good and bad food. It's food. You might be applying that to yourself, but if you say that about yourself, like, Oh, I'm being so bad. I'm having cake. Everyone around you now knows that you associate eating cake as a negative and it's such an avoidable.

thing. I know there's a lot to undo with what has been shoved down our throats from capitalism around food and our bodies and whatnot, but the more you can reduce using that moralistic language. It's softer and kinder to yourself and to those around you who it might be really triggering to hear and, and then emotional labor for them to correct and educate you.

So just don't do it.

[00:51:20] Chris Angel Murphy: MJ, thank you so much for being on the podcast. You're a delightful human being, and I always appreciate our conversations and friendship overall. So yeah, I wrote a PSA in the form of song. Yes, that happened. I'm embracing my unhinged era, which really just means I'm unmasking. And I have to say, it feels really good.

Because, you know, for so long, I didn't know that I was ADHD and autistic, and... There's just so many people who appreciate this about me, and that I don't have to hide it from. So, it really means a lot, especially those closest to me in my life, and y'all know who you are. I love you so much. All right, there are two days left for the Indiegogo campaign for allyship as a verb.

If you get Anything from listening in, I hope you'll consider donating. You could donate 15 to help celebrate my 15 year testosterone anniversary that was back on August 12th, or any amount meaningful to you. At the time of recording this, I only need 51 more people to donate 15 each to hit the 3, 000 goal that I'm so close to closing that gap on, so...

Again, this helps fund almost all of the costs to produce this season alone. Anything over that will help cover the costs of Allyship is a Verb going on tour. It's happening here in Denver, Colorado, and the greater Colorado area starting this September 29th for a year as a pilot. And, if all goes well, it could be going to Los Angeles next.

To those who have been donating already, I can't thank you enough. Truly. It means the world to me and helps me out so, so, so much. And so everything that's been given so far, I'm so incredibly grateful because I want to continue to produce a podcast that I'm proud of, and that is good quality, and make sure that I'm able to get the people I need to help me to make it so good.

So, thank you, thank you, thank you.

Alright, final three, self-reflection questions.

4. What does softness mean to me? How does it differ from hardness?
5. What are some ways I can be soft with myself?
6. Do I have queer posture?

Visit AllyshipIsAVerb.com for any resources and a full transcript of the episode.

And remember, sometimes allyship means not moralizing food and food choices.