[00:00:17] Chris Angel Murphy
Well, hello there. My name is Chris Angel and my pronouns are they/them. Welcome to Allyship is a Verb, the LGBTQ+ podcast that explores and humanizes practicing allyship for the LGBTQ+ community and beyond!

[00:00:38] Destiny Clarke
Hey, my name is Destiny Clarke. My pronouns are she/her.

[00:00:42] Chris Angel Murphy
Destiny is a newer friend of mine, and we connected over Instagram. She's a former middle and high school English teacher turned to LGBTQ+ Consultant and Content Writer. She helps other teachers support LGBTQ+ youth in the classroom.

[00:01:00] Chris Angel Murphy
Something that's dangerous about becoming my friend is that in our first meeting, we could be planning a summit together. And that's kind of what happened in our first call. Yeah, it started with a workshop as an idea. And then I was like, what if I just like had a larger summit

[00:01:18] Chris Angel Murphy
Anyway, we'll see what happens there. But yeah, still trying to decide if that's something I can commit to this year, and dates and software and all that fun stuff. So stay tuned.

[00:01:30] Chris Angel Murphy
Anywho, I wanted to share something about the last episode. For those of you who listen to the episode with Dominic, I've processed it some more and had some things happen since, and just wanted to chat through it a bit. Plus, they've also gotten feedback that I need to add more of myself to the podcast. So here I am, World. Watch out.

[00:01:54] Chris Angel Murphy
Dominic credited me with helping him to come out because I gave him the language by disclosing to him. He's not the first person to tell me this. And maybe he won't be the last.

[00:02:05] Chris Angel Murphy
I frequently would talk to my own classes, my own courses. I've been on my own midterms and finals. And it's been really scary, because I could have easily had so many horrible things happen to me. And luckily, most of the people in the classrooms and courses were really great about it.

[00:02:28] Chris Angel Murphy
But I don't know, I remember there was this one time when I was in my Bachelor's program, and I was talking to a human sexuality class. Someone raised their hand and they said, "Hey, I remember who you are now. You helped my friend come out." And it was just really emotional. I'm crying right now just thinking about it. And Leslie Feinberg was my person.

[00:02:57] Chris Angel Murphy
When I read Stone Butch Blues and started to learn more about Leslie's life, it just blew my world, open. And then I had the language of "transgender" and "genderqueer". And later on, "nonbinary", and who knows, I will probably dart around a lot. But something that's been really hard to do, is let the love in and so that's why, when Dominic shared what he did, I didn't allow myself to get super choked up, or emotional, or make a big deal of thanking him because I just don't give myself enough credit.

[00:03:39] Chris Angel Murphy
And while I know, visibility matters, and I will easily give others credit, I just don't extend the same kindness to myself. And I say that because I think people can sometimes look at me and look at the things I've accomplished and think, "Wow, they're so resilient, and they're so strong, and they're so brave" And all of that, and I don't feel it. And when I'm living in a world that tells me I shouldn't exist for a multitude of reasons, because I'm queer, because I'm trans, non-binary, that my symptoms of autism and ADHD are a hindrance on society, and I'm broken.

[00:04:22] Chris Angel Murphy
I just, it's really hard to feel good about myself or have confidence. And so I guess what I'm trying to say is, I am horrible at letting the love in, and several big people in my life taught me that I wasn't deserving of love and support. And so that's just something I've been carrying with me all of this time. And I'm going to be 35 this year. So it feels important now to say thank you. Thank you, Dominic, for sharing that with me. And I'm gonna work right really hard on letting the love in, but now that I am crying, it is time for self-reflection questions.

[00:05:08] Chris Angel Murphy

Do I know any LGBTQ+ people who live in the South?
Have I been vocal or taking any other action to support the LGBTQ+ community as of late?
Have I ever made a joke when someone was trying to open up to me? Did that shut down the conversation?

And here we go. Make sure to stick around after to get three more self-reflection questions.

[00:05:41] Chris Angel Murphy
You did it. Does that feel awkward doing that?

[00:05:45] Destiny Clarke
Yeah, a little bit.

[00:05:46] Chris Angel Murphy
Yeah, yeah. You're "pansexual", an educator, and neurodiverse. Can you share more about what those intersections mean to you?

Got it, here's the rest of the transcript with the proper timestamp formatting:

[00:05:57] Destiny Clarke
Yeah, sure. So I am "pansexual". I identified as bisexual for a long time until "pansexual" was a word that was more common. And to me, I felt like whenever "pansexual" did become more common, and in people's vocabulary that I finally just kind of like felt seen. You know what I mean? That I was like, "Oh, yeah, that's like exactly how I feel. That's how I would describe my, my sexuality."

[00:06:28] Destiny Clarke
It's kind of like, if you've watched Schitt's Creek, where David is like, "Oh, yeah, like, I like the wine, not the label."

[00:06:37] Chris Angel Murphy
[laughs]

[00:06:37] Destiny Clarke
And it's just, you know, like a perfect way to represent that.

[00:06:43] Destiny Clarke
And then, being an educator is really important to me. That's been a huge part of my life for the last seven years. And I just recently left the classroom to pursue full-time work as an LGBTQ consultant.

[00:06:58] Destiny Clarke
And then the last identity: being neurodivergent. I didn't know, for a long, long time. I feel like I was 27 or 28 whenever that kind of like came onto my radar of even being a thing. There were some things that I was doing that I was just like, "Oh, that's like an ADHD thing? You know, I've just done that my whole life."

[00:07:23] Destiny Clarke
For example, when I was in college, I love video games, they were always a really good like motivator for me. And when I was studying, I would do like, 10 minutes of studying, 10 minutes video games, back and forth. And I swear, that's how I got through my finals in my undergrad.

[00:07:43] Destiny Clarke
So, but I told that story to someone and they were like, "Oh, okay, that's not how I study, but cool." And it just more and more, as I got older, I started to kind of notice that these were things that I was doing, and I did more research. And now here we are, like two years later.

[00:08:06] Chris Angel Murphy
Yeah, well, I have like a million questions for you based on what you just shared. But "pansexual", I know that "bisexual" has evolved a great deal, that definition. And so I'm wondering, what is the difference for you between "bisexual" and "pansexual" that "pansexual" feels more encompassing and more validating for your experience?

[00:08:29] Destiny Clarke
Based on my understanding of "bisexuality" and "pansexuality", which, of course, everyone's perspective is different, and everyone's understanding of it is valid. So, I'm not here to dictate what is and what isn't for people.

[00:08:43] Destiny Clarke
Based on my perspective, that "bisexuality" is being attracted to two genders or more. And "pansexuality" is being attracted to someone either romantically, physically, emotionally, regardless of gender. Gender doesn't really factor into the way that we experience attraction. Where "bisexuality", gender does kind of play a role in that, and not that that makes one inherently wrong, or right, but that's just how I see the difference.

[00:09:18] Chris Angel Murphy
Cool. I appreciate you elaborating more on that. And then, I don't know, I guess, a comment. Not so much a question. When you were talking about studying habits and made me think of like a meme.

[00:09:29] Chris Angel Murphy
I saw at some point that like if someone was having a hard time studying, especially if they needed to read a textbook, they'd leave like, I don't know, peanut M&Ms or something, toward the end of one of the pages so that like once they got there, then they could snack a bit and then turn the page, and do that again, and I'm just like, yeah, if that is an ADHD, I don't know what it is because I'm very motivated by food. And something like that would absolutely help me keep like the dopamine going.

[00:09:55] Chris Angel Murphy
I was wondering like if you've seen anything like that online or done anything like that yourself?

[00:10:00] Destiny Clarke
So, I actually, it's funny that you bring that up. Food is like a really big like stimulation for people who have ADHD. Like, you know, that's how you get lots of dopamine.

[00:10:12] Chris Angel Murphy
Mhmm

[00:10:12] Destiny Clarke
And so I have been doing like more research into that and just like thinking more deeply about my relationship with food.

[00:10:22] Destiny Clarke
But yeah, I feel like the ADHD meme game has definitely gotten really big in the last couple of years. And you know, at the end of the day, I'm here for it. I think that awareness is the first step to, you know, feeling validated within that identity.

[00:10:40] Chris Angel Murphy
Yeah, I mean, recently on the podcast within like, the past couple of episodes or so I came out as being autistic and ADHD. And I've been thinking a lot about, like, now that I know this about myself, what does that mean for the podcast? What does that mean for how I interact with guests and everything?

[00:10:56] Chris Angel Murphy
So, I also just appreciate you sharing some of what that's been like for you. So thank you.

[00:11:03] Destiny Clarke
Yeah, of course. Thank you.

[00:11:05] Chris Angel Murphy
Based on those intersections, and certainly, you're more than those three identities we just talked through. What's it been like for you to be in North Carolina?

[00:11:15] Chris Angel Murphy
[laughs] Where do we start?

[00:11:19] Destiny Clarke
[laughs] What a loaded question. Geez, well...

[00:11:22] Chris Angel Murphy
One of my favorite resources is LGBTMap.org, as it gives a broad overview of the United States and U.S. territories, including a state by state breakdown of LGBTQ+ specific policies and individual cities when applicable.

[00:11:40] Chris Angel Murphy
As a brief overview, there's no non-discrimination laws for things like housing or credit and lending. Specific to LGBTQ youth, there's no non-discrimination laws and policies covering LGBTQ students broadly. There are anti-bullying laws, but state curricular standards are not required to be LGBTQ-inclusive.

[00:12:02] Chris Angel Murphy
There are no protections for LGBTQ youth in the child welfare system. Thinking about healthcare, there's no protections for private health insurance and no hate crime laws covering LGBTQ people, or bans against panic defense for both sexual orientation or gender identity.

[00:12:21] Chris Angel Murphy
With the exception of South Dakota, overwhelmingly the states that have the fewest protections, no protections, or discriminatory legislation are in the South. This includes states like Oklahoma, Arkansas, Tennessee, and South Carolina.

[00:12:37] Chris Angel Murphy
North Carolina is marginally better, but it's still not great to be an LGBTQ+ person in the South. Furthermore, the Williams Institute out of UCLA shared LGBT population data in 2019, that showed 1 in 3 LGBTQ people in the country called the south their home, which is more than we see in the West, Midwest and Northeast, respectively.

[00:13:03] Chris Angel Murphy
That means about 3.6 million LGBTQ adults, including 525,000 Transgender adults, are living in the south with little to no protection, or in many cases, also negative policies. I share all of this to help give us some data to ground in as we continue the conversation.

[00:13:22] Destiny Clarke
So, there are some really kind-hearted, good old Christian people in North Carolina. I mean, there, there really are some wonderful people here. Like in all places, I think that there are some people who have some antiquated ideas. And the vibe, so to speak, is like "Bless your heart" kind of homophobia.

[00:13:49] Destiny Clarke
The rise of Christianity, and its relationship with the LGBTQ community is, for a whole other episode and a whole other day, but there are a lot of churches and a lot of people here who are accepting of the LGBTQ+ community. But there are quite a few people, even outside of Christians, who are not accepting. I do feel like it is more prevalent in the South.

[00:14:15] Destiny Clarke
Actually, I was looking at some research not too long ago about from The Trevor Project, and that there are actually more LGBTQ+ youth in the south than anywhere else.

[00:14:27] Destiny Clarke
And so I think that it makes it even more important to acknowledge some of the homophobia that we see that is prevalent here in the south and kind of a way to, like, combat that together as a community.

[00:14:27] Chris Angel Murphy
Mhmm

[00:14:41] Destiny Clarke
You know, I just encourage people if they are allies, especially within the Christian community that they have those conversations. And I have spent a long time being kind of apprehensive about my identity as a result of the homophobia that's seen here.

[00:15:00] Destiny Clarke
I grew up in a Southern Baptist family. [laughs] It came with challenges. I didn't come out until much later in my life, especially not to my family. It just kind of was like, if you know, you know, kind of thing. Like, many of my friends knew, but not really my family. And it wasn't really something that I felt comfortable sharing with them, even if I knew that they were going to be okay with it, it just because of how stigmatized it had become, especially in the south.

[00:15:35] Destiny Clarke
When you add the other layer of being bisexual that that made it even more complicated for me, because one, I guess, thing that you hear a lot about bisexual people is that, "Oh, it's a phase" or like, "You know, you don't really know what you want."

[00:15:51] Destiny Clarke
And that, even when I did share my identity with others, that those were the kinds of things that I was hearing. And so it was even more discouraging, because it was like, [laughs] you know, I'm just trying to figure it out this on my own, let alone having the courage to share it with someone else. And then them just kind of like, invalidating it right there in your face.You know?

[00:16:18] Chris Angel Murphy
Do you get the same kind of pushback when you share with people that you're pansexual?

[00:16:23] Destiny Clarke
One common thing that pansexual people may experience is the whole like, "Oh, so you're attracted to pans?" Like they just [both laugh] like, it's, it's just like that kind of ignorance of like, like, do you really think that I'm attracted to pans? That's what I'm telling you right now?

[00:16:45] Chris Angel Murphy
[laughs]

[00:16:45] Destiny Clarke
Come on.

[00:16:47] Destiny Clarke
I don't know if that's like a defense mechanism, or like, kind of where that pushback comes from. But I definitely feel like there is some pushback with the identity of "pansexual". That like, you know, some people argue the validity, and, you know, there's a lot of like, turmoil, even amongst the community of "Oh, if you're bisexual that like you're transphobic"

[00:17:15] Destiny Clarke
Or like, you know, kind of like pitting us against each other when, like, you know, I don't think that we should be arguing about the validity of anybody's identity. It's up to them.

[00:17:26] Destiny Clarke
Yeah, I feel like it to go back to your question that, yeah, I definitely experienced that kind of stuff in telling people that I'm pansexual as well.

[00:17:36] Chris Angel Murphy
Yeah, I think when, and tell me if I'm off base here, but I think more often than not, when folks are disclosing something that's really important, especially like an identity they carry, especially if it's from a marginalized community. We don't necessarily want to have like a dad joke moment, or make light of the situation. Not that it needs to be this dark, dramatic after school special situation either

[00:18:04] Chris Angel Murphy
Like, rather, like we can show support, we just Yeah, we don't need to immediately turn it into a joke or something like that, you know, I guess, rather than that approach of like, I'm going to dad joke right now, and like you said, it's just oh so overdone, so overdone.

[00:18:23] Chris Angel Murphy
What would be something instead that would be supportive to you specifically, like, what do you wish people would say instead, after you disclose that to them?

[00:18:31] Destiny Clarke
Either inquiry, or, like, approval, validity, like, you know, validation? I think that there's nothing wrong with asking questions. I think that people's intentions behind their inquiry is really important.

[00:18:46] Destiny Clarke
Inquiry is fine. People should be curious. People should ask questions, you know, to things that they don't know. "Oh, I'm pansexual." "What's that?" "Oh, thanks for asking. [laughs] Actually, it's..." and then it becomes a teachable moment. And that's what I'm all about, you know, I'm an educator so...

[00:19:04] Destiny Clarke
But then validity or validation, like, you know, oh, thank you for sharing. Because at the end of the day, it is something that you're choosing to disclose to somebody, and it's so important to you, and making that dad joke and like, not responding appropriately, really takes away from that moment.

[00:19:24] Chris Angel Murphy
Mhmm.

[00:19:24] Destiny Clarke
And I feel conflicted because , on one hand, I don't think that it should be the responsibility of people who are in the community to disclose. Like, it just doesn't matter. Why do I have to disclose? That like, if this is a connection, or a vibe, or whatever, I think that there doesn't necessarily have to be a conversation with disclosure.

[00:19:53] Destiny Clarke
But at the same time, I do understand how labels kind of give us that sense of identity and how important that can be to someone. I think that there's truth on both sides. And that one is not right, or wrong, and that we just try to understand that and understand ourselves the best that we can.

[00:20:11] Chris Angel Murphy
When we had the conversation of setting up this episode, we did talk about free emotional labor. And you had expressed to me that you felt conflicted because and then often because you felt this tug of feeling like you should explain this to someone because you love them, and you know, they have good intentions, but it can be a lot and sometimes either, we just want that support, or we may not even want to be treated differently as a result of whatever we've just shared.

[00:20:43] Chris Angel Murphy
I'm still your friend, I'm still your sibling, or, you know, whatever that looks like. Does that feel accurate for you? You're nodding your head.

[00:20:50] Destiny Clarke
Oh, yeah. Yeah, that like while I am happy to, to answer inquiry, and while people have good intentions behind that inquiry, that like, like you said that it does kind of feel like free labor.

[00:21:03] Destiny Clarke
I'm not trying to be like that, but the internet exists. [laughs] So you know, you know, that tool, "Let me Google that for you"? [laughs]

[00:21:13] Chris Angel Murphy
Oh, yeah, the passive-aggressive one. But I mean, as an educator, and I think this is where it gets tricky too, right? Is that sometimes what people are googling, it may not be a good resource.

[00:21:27] Chris Angel Murphy
And like you mentioned previously, you may have your own spin on it. So, I think it just becomes very complex. And how do we make sure that folks are getting, I almost want to say "vouched for" resources and like, trust that they are making sure that what they're digesting is good, and truthful and honest, and all that.

[00:21:48] Chris Angel Murphy
So I just, so I hear that, and it's come up a few times on the podcast, and I always, there's always this like, little voice in the back of my head going, "But what what, like, what if it's not a good resource? What if it's, you know like..." because that can always be a reality, that is just something super misinformed or discouraging or something like that?

[00:22:05] Destiny Clarke
I would say, in general, and this is a huge overgeneralization. But if, in general, if it comes from someone that is actually in the community, or has openly disclosed some of their identities to you, then I would say that it's just good practice to trust them.

[00:22:26] Destiny Clarke
But, at the same time, that we have definitely evolved in there has been lots of change in the community, and what's been acceptable to say, and what's no longer acceptable to say. So, I think that also keeping in mind that language will become different over time. And it's not something that is very static. It can change and evolve over time.

[00:22:54] Destiny Clarke
And we've seen that, especially within our community, and the way that we're able to label and express ourselves. But it is still important to do the research. Some people may feel overwhelmed, like they kind of have the sentiment of, "Well, there's just so much out there. I don't want to say something wrong." So then, they do nothing instead.

[00:23:16] Chris Angel Murphy
Mhmm.

[00:23:17] Destiny Clarke
And so I want to encourage people to do the research and to find out what those reliable sources are, but then also kind of keep in mind that things will evolve, and they will change. And as they should. [laughs]

[00:23:32] Chris Angel Murphy
Yeah. What's broadly been your experience as an LGBTQ+ educator in North Carolina. And that's another big question for you.

[00:23:41] Chris Angel Murphy
But [laughs] yeah, what-- how has that? How is that felt? And I guess, could you share more? If you feel comfortable about why you left the classroom?

[00:23:41] Destiny Clarke
[laughs]

[00:23:52] Destiny Clarke
It's definitely been a unique experience. I think that it is one experience that many people don't necessarily think about, and that it might be difficult to navigate that space. Again, kind of going back to one of those, like, really common, what's the word? I'm looking for?

[00:24:14] Chris Angel Murphy
microaggression?

[00:24:16] Destiny Clarke
Um, yes, in a way, like, you know, that, "Oh, teachers shouldn't be disclosing their sexuality to students." But when you tell somebody [laughs], "Oh, I went to the park with my wife and kids." It comes up [laughs], even when it's unintentional.

[00:24:36] Destiny Clarke
And so I feel like it's really unfair that people assume Queer people, or people within the community shouldn't be allowed to share that side of themselves.

[00:24:47] Chris Angel Murphy
Mmm.

[00:24:47] Destiny Clarke
That being part of the community is not just about my sexuality. It's about the way that I understand myself, it's about love, it's about relationships.

[00:24:59] Destiny Clarke
And I think a lot of people, when they are giving those microaggressions and that pushback that, like, they don't realize really, what they're asking of that person. To hide who you are.

[00:25:13] Destiny Clarke
With my students, my students are some of the most special people to me. And I-- [laughs] I love them. And you know, because I care about them [laughs], and teachers care about their students so, so gravely.

[00:25:27] Destiny Clarke
When I was teaching high school, it was 95 minutes, 3 times a day, with anywhere from 25 to 30 kids. We spend 180, school days together. We have a really special connection. It's just unfair. And it's something that maybe people don't even think about that, like, you're asking me to hide who I am from people who are special to me.

[00:25:54] Destiny Clarke
I did hide my-- my sexuality from my students for a long time, because you know, I live in North Carolina. [laughs] That would not be digested well, or at least I didn't think that it would. And to my surprise, I was in a long term relationship for a really long time. And that ended. And I was going on some dates...

[00:26:17] Destiny Clarke
...entering back into the dating world. And one of my students asked me, "Oh, what are you doing this weekend?" And I said that I had a date. And they asked me, you know, "Oh, who's the guy?"

[00:26:17] Chris Angel Murphy
[laughs]

[00:26:20] Destiny Clarke
"What's he look like?"

[00:26:33] Chris Angel Murphy
Mmmm.

[00:26:33] Destiny Clarke
And I said, "Well, actually [laughs], it's a girl [laughs]." And they were like, "ooooh okayyyy"

[00:26:39] Chris Angel Murphy
[laughs]

[00:26:42] Destiny Clarke
So you know, their reaction was just-- it was so, so sweet. And I just-- I was so thankful that that's what happened in the moment when it could have gone way differently, especially based on some of my previous experiences here in North Carolina. And I was really, really thankful that I was able to share that with my students. And just feel really grateful for that experience.

[00:27:09] Chris Angel Murphy
And it reminds me when you were talking about "Bless Your Heart Homophobia", can you share more about what that can look like, and how it's impacted you?

[00:27:23] Destiny Clarke
That is [laughs], like someone , I remember, I was in 8th grade. And I was walking in a grocery store holding a person's hand, and just the looks [laughs] in the store, like the nasty looks, the "Bless Their Heart".

[00:27:46] Destiny Clarke
I guess , that really just looks like judgment.

[00:27:49] Chris Angel Murphy
Mmmm.

[00:27:50] Destiny Clarke
At the end of the day, it's-- it's just judgment about someone else's life. And, you know, one common thing of "Oh, I don't agree with your lifestyle." And that like, this is not a lifestyle. [laughs] It's not a choice. It is.

[00:28:06] Destiny Clarke
And the unfortunate part is that people close themselves off from learning more, and they close themselves off from getting to know people in their true selves. And it comes from a place of ignorance.

[00:28:20] Destiny Clarke
And I think that that's part of what really motivates me to do what I do. LGBTQ+ inclusive education, and teaching LGBTQ history and just sharing with others, like so much that our community has to offer that just has been kept from us.

[00:28:39] Destiny Clarke
I taught English [laughs] for seven years. Obviously, stories are very important to me. And the way that LGBTQ+ stories have really been hidden from society is-- it's astonishing. And it's really sad because now that like, this is what I'm doing full time, I'm just-- I'm learning so much about people that I had no idea were LGBTQ+.

[00:29:07] Destiny Clarke
I feel like if I would have known that whenever I was younger, kind of going back to your question of the "Bless Your Heart Homophobia" that like all of that judgment, I internalized it. It became shame.

[00:29:21] Chris Angel Murphy
Mmmm.

[00:29:22] Destiny Clarke
I just was so ashamed of myself of who I was like, because it was like I couldn't even accept myself because of how not accepted I was within my community, within my family. I couldn't share that part of my identity with others. And it just-- it really became very internalized. And I felt a lot of shame for a long time. I feel so, so deeply for our LGBTQ youth, and especially our Trans youth in how-- how ignorance continues to harm our community is just-- It's-- it's very, very sad.

[00:30:02] Chris Angel Murphy
I'm glad you mentioned youth, because something that's been a passion of yours was throughout your classroom career, let's call it, you were an advisor for "GSAs".

[00:30:15] Chris Angel Murphy
And for folks listening, if you're not familiar with that, they are known as "Gender and Sexuality Alliance" clubs. Sometimes they are called "Gay Straight Alliances" and can go by various other names. But generally, it's a place for students to feel supported and have a safer space. And we'll get to that- we'll get to that.

[00:30:35] Chris Angel Murphy
But it can be social, it could be political, or a combination thereof in terms of the kinds of activities that they take on. So, when I was in high school, I graduated 2005, for context, any teacher who was the faculty advisor, rumors would go rampant in the school that the teacher must be gay.

[00:30:58] Chris Angel Murphy
And it was really shocking for me to see that kind of gossip and behavior from the adults , especially who were there to help empower young minds. So, and I saw you nodding a bit throughout when I was mentioning that. So I'm curious if teachers on campus ever questioned your LGBTQ+ status when you got involved with the GSA? And what was it like doing that kind of work over the years?

[00:31:24] Destiny Clarke
Yeah, quite a lot to [laughs] unpack there. Geez.

[00:31:27] Chris Angel Murphy
[laughs]

[00:31:28] Destiny Clarke
Yes.

[00:31:29] Chris Angel Murphy
Uh huh.

[00:31:29] Destiny Clarke
To all of that. [laughs] Yes, to all of that-- that I have found, in my experience, sometimes, the people who are the most ignorant [laughs] about the community, things to say, what not to say, are sometimes the adults.

[00:31:47] Destiny Clarke
And I-- I think that that's a really important issue to address because students can't feel like they're in these "safer" spaces because, you know, as we discussed, there are no safe spaces. But, they can't feel affirmed, they can't feel validated, if they have, ideally, the people they look up to, you know, they're adults are spewing these ignorant comments.

[00:32:15] Destiny Clarke
And I really haven't talked about it publicly that much, but homophobia was part of why I left the classroom. I had a wonderful experience as a teacher. Overall , it had its ups and downs, you know, any other educators that are listening to the show, [laughs] definitely understand that. Ultimately, in the end, I was in an environment that was not conducive to my success as an LGBTQ+ educator.

[00:32:49] Destiny Clarke
In the place where I was, that Queerness and just my identity in general, I did not feel welcome. I felt very unsafe. And I think that there's something that people who may not have an identity within the LGBTQ community, just again, don't think about.

[00:33:11] Destiny Clarke
And it's, it's never to like point your finger at somebody and say, "You're doing something wrong." It's just-- you don't know what you don't know. LGBTQ+ people have to think about who they can be, where they are.

[00:33:26] Destiny Clarke
When I was teaching, most recently, there were some really inappropriate comments being made. I was like, "Okay, well, what am I supposed to do? I don't know these people. They don't know me. I don't feel safe in this environment. I can't let them in because I don't know what will happen to me."

[00:33:51] Destiny Clarke
And it's really sad, because, you know, when people who are in the LGBTQ+ community have to think about-- that, if I tell someone what my identity is, this could become potentially dangerous for me.

[00:34:06] Chris Angel Murphy
Mhmm.

[00:34:07] Destiny Clarke
I mean, ultimately, it did. It became dangerous for me and my mental health. I had to take a step away. Of course, again, there are tons of other things that are happening in the education system, not just homophobia, but the homophobia really was kind of like the, [laughs] the-- what's the expression? The straw that broke the camel's back.

[00:34:29] Destiny Clarke
All of the other issues on top of not being able to be myself, not being able to know where my mental health was going to be that day. Someone could say a comment and then like, I don't feel safe around that person.

[00:34:47] Destiny Clarke
Like, okay, we're making copies in the copy room, and like we're alone, what's going to happen? That like these are, you know, all of these racing thoughts that happen after these kinds of events and kind of incidents and because of the state of what the vibes are about the LGBTQ community in North Carolina, that ultimately, I-- I wasn't protected.

[00:35:11] Destiny Clarke
There were conversations had, "Hey, this is the incident that happened. And I'm letting you know that I'm uncomfortable."

[00:35:19] Destiny Clarke
And these conversations were had multiple times.

[00:35:22] Chris Angel Murphy
Mhmm.

[00:35:22] Destiny Clarke
And then, you know, it just got to the point where like, my mental health was just really suffering, my physical health was suffering. And I-- I just, I couldn't be who I needed to be when I walked into the building to help serve our young people.

[00:35:42] Chris Angel Murphy
When you disclosed who you were to your high school students...

[00:35:47] Destiny Clarke
Mhmm

[00:35:48] Chris Angel Murphy
...because of the date-mate situation. [laughs]

[00:35:52] Destiny Clarke
[laughs] Yeah.

[00:35:53] Chris Angel Murphy
Were you ever afraid at some point that they might use that against you? Or anything like that?

[00:36:01] Destiny Clarke
No, not at all. Honestly, I think that like, if anything, my experience has been that my students have been the most accepting.

[00:36:10] Chris Angel Murphy
Mmmm. Mhmm.

[00:36:11] Destiny Clarke
There were also students who, going back to the GSAs, that I actually-- I helped create a GSA at three different schools.

[00:36:21] Chris Angel Murphy
Wow.

[00:36:22] Destiny Clarke
So, [laughs] you know, that like, there were students who were a part of the GSA that maybe hadn't shared their identity with other people. It was kind of like this unspoken agreement between us that like, we don't "out" each other. We're in this affinity space together, because we're both supportive of the LGBTQ+ community. And that's all that needs to be said.

[00:36:44] Destiny Clarke
You don't have to prove what your identity is just to be in this space. And kind of going back to the example that you gave about how the rumors were rampant about the teacher who started the GSA. While I do think that it may be common [laughs], that GSA advisors are part of the community that you know, you don't have to be part of the community to be an ally. And I think that that's a really big, important misconception to debunk. That you don't have to be part of the community to care about somebody who is.

[00:37:17] Chris Angel Murphy
I think most-- I think it was split. They didn't have a GSA at my middle school until after I left, of course. It was like the monkey bars all over again.

[00:37:29] Destiny Clarke
[laughs]

[00:37:29] Chris Angel Murphy
[laughs] I say that because when I left fifth grade, and went on to middle school, my old elementary school got these like, amazing monkey bars and this like jungle gym situation happening, I was pissed because it was so cool. And I was like, I don't get to play on it. So like, every time I miss out on something, I'm just like, the monkey bars all over again.

[00:37:53] Destiny Clarke
The FOMO [laughs].

[00:37:54] Chris Angel Murphy
FOMO. [laughs] For real, though, now that I've distracted myself with that side story, half of the faculty advisors that I've worked with are part of the affinity group and half for allies. And I think the allies were pretty good sports about any rumors that would develop and pretty comfortable and confident enough in their sexuality and their genders to not really be fazed by it.

[00:38:19] Destiny Clarke
Mhmm.

[00:38:20] Chris Angel Murphy
And yet again, it's just like, really like I would kind of expect it from the students on a certain level at that time, but not the adults. So, it's disappointing. And this-- This is in Los Angeles, California, just also give context.

[00:38:33] Destiny Clarke
Oh, wow.

[00:38:33] Chris Angel Murphy
That's where I used to live. Yeah, there's that [laughs]

[00:38:37] Destiny Clarke
Well, I think-- I think that's-- I'm glad that you brought that up because I think that there is also, we're just you know, debunking all the misconceptions here, but...

[00:38:46] Chris Angel Murphy
[chuckles]

[00:38:47] Destiny Clarke
I think that there's also a misconception that homophobes only exist in the South.

[00:38:52] Chris Angel Murphy
Mhmm.

[00:38:53] Destiny Clarke
That like, or people who are not accepting because I don't think that people who are not accepting exist everywhere. And that-- that actually, so, in my experience as an educator, that when I taught in a school, that was in a more rural area, it's still like a city school, but you know, a much smaller city. I never had any issues there.

[00:39:20] Destiny Clarke
But when I was teaching in a much larger city, that is where I experienced some of the homophobia at school, from other educators and from other staff members. And so I think that there is like that misconception that people who are not accepting are only in the south. And, you know, you just give the example of LA and I think that California is seen as one of the more accepting areas for the LGBTQ+ community.

[00:39:48] Chris Angel Murphy
Mhmm. Yeah. And it's definitely got its pockets of zero support. [laughs] Negative support.

[00:39:53] Destiny Clarke
[laughs] Yes.

[00:39:53] Chris Angel Murphy
So, when you talked about launching GSAs at 3 schools, how was it?

[00:40:00] Destiny Clarke
Mhmm.

[00:40:00] Chris Angel Murphy
Given all of your experiences that you've shared throughout the podcast episode so far with how you've been experiencing North Carolina, was there a lot of pushback? And what did that look like?

[00:40:13] Destiny Clarke
Well, so the first school where I created the GSA, actually, there wasn't any pushback at all. And...

[00:40:20] Chris Angel Murphy
Amazing.

[00:40:21] Destiny Clarke
And in-- that was in the more rural area. So, I was very surprised.

[00:40:25] Chris Angel Murphy
What?

[00:40:26] Destiny Clarke
Very happy. Yeah. And actually, one of the schools in the district already had a very strong going GSA. So, you know, I was able to reach-- reach out to that advisor for like, networking and kind of like, plan events, and get in touch with them.

[00:40:45] Destiny Clarke
And so, it was really great. I feel like my first experience, I was very lucky. When I created the GSA, that my administrators were very accepting. I told them that, you know, it was a student interest, and I just wanted to sponsor it. They were like, "Oh, yeah, cool. Okay, well, there's a GSA at this other school so you can get in touch with them."

[00:41:07] Destiny Clarke
And I was very pleasantly surprised. At the second school that I did it at it was again, like another very, it was in a larger city, but a city that is much more accepting. Which, I mean, I guess I can say the city, right?

[00:41:22] Chris Angel Murphy
If you want.

[00:41:22] Destiny Clarke
Okay, shout out to Durham, The Bull City. [laughs]

[00:41:25] Chris Angel Murphy
[laughs]

[00:41:28] Destiny Clarke
But yeah, Durham is a wonderful place for LGBTQ+ people. Um, they actually have an LGBTQ+ Education Center there in Durham, where they help serve youth and the trans community and people just all around, you know, it's-- it's really great organization.

[00:41:46] Destiny Clarke
But so, the second time that I did it-- it was also pretty cool and, like pretty accepting. And I-- but I did experience some pushback at that school. Even though there were, it's a more accepting area, my administrators were very supportive of it, but then I did have some apprehensions from parents.

[00:42:06] Destiny Clarke
One parent told me that I made their kid gay.

[00:42:10] Chris Angel Murphy
Oh, my gosh

[00:42:11] Destiny Clarke
...by offering this space for them.

[00:42:13] Chris Angel Murphy
[sighs and laughs]

[00:42:13] Destiny Clarke
[laughs] And I, as an educator [laughs], I understand that for some parents, it may be very difficult to understand some things about your child that you are not well versed in.

[00:42:33] Chris Angel Murphy
Mmm.

[00:42:33] Destiny Clarke
To put it diplomatically.

[00:42:35] Chris Angel Murphy
[laughs]

[00:42:35] Destiny Clarke
But the truth is that like, you know, I didn't make your kid gay. [laughs] Like, they just, they wanted somewhere to be themselves. And I provided that space for them.

[00:42:47] Destiny Clarke
And, you know, I-- I told my principal, I was like, "Hey, look, this is what kind of response I'm getting." And my principal was just like, "Well, handle it." [laughs] Like, they trusted me to make the right decision.

[00:42:47] Destiny Clarke
And you know, just let that parent know that, "Hey, we're just providing this space. And that, like, you know, I encourage you to talk to your child. And that like, this is when the GSA meets, these are the topics that we go over, here are some of the videos that we watch. If you're interested in more of the curriculum, we get it from the GSA Network, other resources like GLSEN. These are organizations that have been around for a really long time that we're using to help provide an affinity space for our students.

[00:43:35] Destiny Clarke
And after that, I didn't hear anything else. [laughs] I guess I answered all their questions. So, [laughs] then the third time that I tried to make a GSA it was very difficult.

[00:43:46] Destiny Clarke
And I'm sure you can guess which time of my career that was, but again, going back to just debunking all these myths, I think that some parents feel very apprehensive about their child expressing themselves in being interested in some of the identities within the LGBTQ+ community.

[00:44:11] Destiny Clarke
Students are gaining access to the internet sooner and sooner.

[00:44:15] Chris Angel Murphy
Mhmm.

[00:44:16] Destiny Clarke
Students need a place to digest the things. They just need somebody that they can trust, and somebody that they can talk to about, you know, their identity, who they are, who they aspire to be.

[00:44:29] Destiny Clarke
Educators serve as that person, you know that people trust their teachers. They develop really great relationships and kids need that space. So I think that it's super important that we have those spaces, especially in younger grades. That some parents can feel incredibly apprehensive about, like having an affinity space in an elementary school, for example, or a middle school.

[00:44:57] Destiny Clarke
Both of us are friends with Rebecca...

[00:44:59] Chris Angel Murphy
[sings] Rebecca Minor.

[00:45:01] Chris Angel Murphy
[laughs] I'm running on four hours of sleep, please send help.

[00:45:05] Chris Angel Murphy
Okay, so Rebecca Minor is The Gender Specialist. And if that sounds familiar to you, it may be because you're also following her on Instagram, or you've been listening to the podcast for a minute. And you know that she's been sponsoring the rest of season one of Allyship is a Verb. Thank you, Rebecca, you rock.

[00:45:22] Chris Angel Murphy
Anyway, she's really awesome, has a lot of great resources for parents and families of LGBTQ+ youth, as well as just humans interested in learning more about gender broadly. So, make sure you follow her on Instagram, if you're not already.

[00:45:35] Destiny Clarke
And she recently-- she did like a blog post or something about how kids are able to kind of see some of their gender roles and identify gender by like, 3 or 4.

[00:45:50] Destiny Clarke
This idea that "Oh, they're too young to know." And that's, that's actually also something that I heard a lot whenever I was kind of coming into my own identity and figuring out who I was because I've known that I was part of the queer community since I was like 10 or 11. I'm gonna reveal my age here. But you remember Xena?

[00:46:14] Chris Angel Murphy
Mhmm. That's like one of the gayest shows ever. And I did not that like memo went over my head as a little one.

[00:46:22] Destiny Clarke
I---

[00:46:22] Chris Angel Murphy
It is so gay. [laughs]

[00:46:27] Destiny Clarke
[laughs] Yeah. I loved that show.

[00:46:29] Chris Angel Murphy
Same. Same.

[00:46:29] Destiny Clarke
And you know, I feel like everyone loved Kimberly from The Power Rangers just because she was like [mockingly] the pink ranger. But like, I loved her because she was "bae" and I loved her so [laughs]

[00:46:40] Chris Angel Murphy
Oh, gosh [laughs]

[00:46:41] Destiny Clarke
You know that, like, I started having these questions like, you know, I was watching Power Rangers when I was like, 5, 6. And kids are able to see this, especially I think media representation of relationships, they see media representation of love.

[00:47:01] Destiny Clarke
And so to think that kids don't have any idea, or they're not old enough to understand sexuality or love and relationships that like really, that takes away so much autonomy from children. And I think that it's so important to just listen to them and their-- their thoughts and kind of help them understand themselves. And that's what GSAs do.

[00:47:27] Chris Angel Murphy
Something that we talked about a bit, and especially a lot in our pre-conversation, if we want to call it that, is the whole concept of safe spaces and safe zones in those have gotten really popular over the years. I mean, I remember when I was in school, especially high school, community college.

[00:47:48] Chris Angel Murphy
Usually, there's some sort of sign in like someone's room, like their classroom, or an office, and there was a pink triangle giving a nod to our Queer history. And you and I are basically an agreement that safe spaces are loaded and can mean different things to different people. And that no space is truly safe. So when we talk about this concept of safe spaces, and then we're thinking about the GSAs that you helped out with, how did you navigate that knowing though, that again, no space can be truly safe?

[00:48:25] Destiny Clarke
I think that it's really important for educators to strive for more "Principled Spaces" as opposed to "Safe Spaces".

[00:48:35] Chris Angel Murphy
Can you define that for us?

[00:48:36] Destiny Clarke
Yeah, of course. So, a "principled space" is going to be a space that is driven by principles that you agree on with your students. Something that you could commonly use as like a social contract. They're just agreements, norms, ways that we promise to treat each other.

[00:48:55] Destiny Clarke
And it's really important to do that to help build a classroom community that can be more LGBTQ inclusive. A lot of educators may feel apprehensive about bringing inclusiveness into their space. You know-- I know that that's something that I felt really reluctant about even being a person in the community, bringing it into my classroom, having a Queer text. That may seem like a really daunting task to someone who may be in an environment that is not as affirming.

[00:49:29] Destiny Clarke
But you can help build that community and help build that space by creating those "GSAs" and letting your spaces be ruled by principles as opposed to what we consider safe or unsafe.

[00:49:44] Chris Angel Murphy
You mentioned Rebecca. Way to namedrop.

[00:49:46] Destiny Clarke
[laughs]

[00:49:46] Chris Angel Murphy
So, The Gender Specialist. We're both friends with her. [smacks lips] Yeah.

[00:49:50] Destiny Clarke
[laughs]

[00:49:50] Chris Angel Murphy
And anyway, we had a little bit of a chat because yeah, she's been talking a little bit more about gender specifically lately, in terms of asking "cisgender" people, how do you know your "cis"? With some additional prompts.

[00:50:07] Chris Angel Murphy
And so you and I both saw the similar post, and I'm wondering, you've mentioned to me previously that you know, you've kind of been on your own gender journey, but I'm wondering what that sparked in you, and what kind of gender thoughts maybe you've had throughout the course of your life.

[00:50:27] Destiny Clarke
So yeah, that's a really great post. If you're listening, I hope that you get a chance to check out Rebecca's post, because it really served as a great place for reflection.

[00:50:38] Destiny Clarke
And just to openly, honestly, and authentically ask myself those questions. I have questioned my gender, I think that everyone should at least question it. Whether you decide that you are in fact "cisgender", or somewhere in between, or whatever decision you make for yourself, I think that it should come from a place of actually thinking about it.

[00:51:04] Destiny Clarke
We're taught very early on to not think about it that it just is. Instead of leaving room for ourselves to reflect and grow and kind of mull those things over.

[00:51:18] Destiny Clarke
So, I have thought about my gender identity previously. And I think that those were some really great questions to continue to reflect on it. And I encourage anyone to answer those questions for themselves. I think that it serves as a really great reflection tool.

[00:51:35] Chris Angel Murphy
Gender for you has sometimes met dresses, or maybe sometimes it's basketball shorts, and vans. What has your gender expression looked like over the years?

[00:51:48] Destiny Clarke
Well, so I think that whenever I was really young, I wore dresses and very feminine expressive clothes for like holidays and like dressing up. But then, [laughs] you know, normally I'm just like in a T-shirt and jeans, or like you said basketball shorts.

[00:52:08] Destiny Clarke
But I think that that's something that I really struggled with when I was younger. Because like, I always was like hanging out with the boys and like, very tomboyish, which has all kinds of like layers to it. But yeah, it was I was very tomboyish my dad, and I would play football. And, you know, I wanted to be on the wrestling team.

[00:52:31] Destiny Clarke
And then I felt really self-conscious, as I got older, because, you know, I never really thought that I had like a good sense of style. And as I got older, kind of seeing what was really comfortable for me and what wasn't.

[00:52:46] Destiny Clarke
And then when I got with my most recent partner, we were out like going to Walmart or something. And I had on my basketball shorts, my vans, my baggy t-shirt. And I asked like, "Oh, you're not embarrassed? Because like, I look like this?" And he was just like, "What, like, [laughs] what do you mean?"

[00:53:09] Destiny Clarke
And it just, it was really validating, to kind of hear from my partner that the way that I choose to express myself and my gender through the way that I dress, it's-- it's not something that dictates love, or attraction or anything like that.

[00:53:28] Destiny Clarke
And that I think that in a society that is hyper-focused on aesthetics, and kind of the way that we do present ourselves, and our gender, and our identity through the way that we dress. While I think that that can be really great for people to be able to do that-- that sometimes, there's kind of like that caveat to it that like, also when we become very hyper-focused on it, that it can become detrimental to someone's like mental health, or just the way that they are able to see themselves.

[00:54:03] Chris Angel Murphy
We've talked a lot about allyship throughout the course of our conversation, and I'm curious about a time, you could have been a better ally and what you do differently now?

[00:54:15] Destiny Clarke
One time when I was working at the middle school, I was trying to get my students' attention. And I said, "Hey, guys, can you look at me?" And a student stopped and they said, "Just the guys?"

[00:54:31] Chris Angel Murphy
[laughs]

[00:54:37] Destiny Clarke
And in my head, I'm like, "Oh, oops, um..."

[00:54:35] Chris Angel Murphy
[laughs]

[00:54:37] Destiny Clarke
I felt really, like, embarrassed in that moment. But I was so appreciative and so grateful of the correction because from that moment on I realized how I just like-- I would frequently greet a group of "Hey, guys, how are you?" That it just like was very kind of second nature to say, "Hey, guys!"

[00:55:02] Destiny Clarke
And you know, now if you like, watch YouTube or whatever, you hear it everywhere. I, in that moment, learned how I could be a better ally for-- for my students and give more visibility to my trans and gender-nonconforming students. Now, I have changed my greetings a little bit, you know, I fully embrace the y'all [laughs] of the South.

[00:55:28] Chris Angel Murphy
Mhmm. What's one allyship tip you'd like for everyone listening to consider?

[00:55:28] Chris Angel Murphy
[laughs]

[00:55:36] Destiny Clarke
Action is the most important. That, I think that action in our current society and state looks very different for people.

[00:55:49] Destiny Clarke
I can't emphasize enough that action is so important because you know, people have this sentiment that, "Oh, I'm just a good person. I treat everyone well." And that- that's great, and I'm so happy for you. Thank you for being a good person. But that's not what kind of energy is being given from the other side.

[00:55:49] Destiny Clarke
That, you may not be able to go to a protest, but you can sign a petition. You may not be able to teach LGBTQ+ history, but you can correct your bigoted uncle [laughs] at the next family holiday. It is about the action, the steps that we take in our actions really dictate who we are as people.

[00:56:34] Destiny Clarke
And we see that. I was looking at the numbers, and it's like 330, anti-LGBTQ+ bills have been moved in motion and is being a nice person, the same kind of energy as 330 bills?

[00:56:52] Destiny Clarke
It's not. And in order to get things done, that we have to come together. It's not ever pointing your finger at somebody and saying that, "Oh, you're doing something wrong, or you're not doing enough".

[00:57:04] Destiny Clarke
It's that you know, I need all of us to come together as a community and to really move towards true allyship and go into action and so that we can see changes.

[00:57:24] Chris Angel Murphy
I love what Destiny's shared about saying, "Hey, guys". Being originally from Los Angeles, California, "dude" was thrown around all the time. And as a gentle reminder, it's not gender-neutral [laughs].

[00:57:41] Chris Angel Murphy
However, in California, everything can be "dude", a dog can be "dude", a car, person, like so many things. And I think it's been really challenging, even for me to re-learn, unlearn, and not use language like that.

[00:57:57] Chris Angel Murphy
So, I just wanted to thank Destiny for sharing that and all of my guests who have shared so openly and vulnerably. Times, they maybe missed the mark and made a mistake. So, thank you for that.

[00:58:13] Chris Angel Murphy
The other thing I want to share is that specific to her allyship tip. We've heard it a few times now in a few different ways, if you've been listening to the podcast for a while. And I think what's interesting is that there's a different angle every time. And I love what Destiny said about, you know, it's not enough to be a good person. Are you actually taking action? Or are you just giving lip service to things? And that feels like a really important distinction.

[00:58:43] Chris Angel Murphy
[Sighs] Now, before I find more reasons to cry, let's do the last three self-reflection questions:

[00:58:51] Chris Angel Murphy
So…

4. What kind of greeting do I use when I address groupings of people?
5. What's an allyship action I've been afraid to take? Where can I get support to work through it?
6. Have I thanked someone recently for an action they took that made my life better, in even the smallest of ways?

[00:59:18] Chris Angel Murphy
Visit AllyshipIsAVerb.com for any resources and a full transcript of the episode. And remember, sometimes allyship means taking action.