[00:00:00] Chris Angel Murphy: Well, hello there. I'm Chris Angel, and my pronouns are they/ them. Welcome to Allyship is a verb, a podcast for people practicing allyship for the LGBTQ+ community and beyond.

[00:00:25] Wesley Toma: Hello, my name is Wesley Toma. My pronouns are he/him.

[00:00:29] Chris Angel Murphy: This is one of those episodes that I think folks rallying against the LGBTQ+ Plus community might say is proof of "See! Deviance, sinners. How sick they are! Listen to them flaunting their sick lifestyle. Protect the children."

I call bullshit. Kink is for everyone who wants it and I'm not going to shy away from controversial topics. Some of you maybe know that by now.

That said, Wesley is a relationship and intimacy coach. He's a sex educator with experience in LGBTQIA+ and kink relationships.

He describes himself as an androsexual kinkster. "Androsexual" is a term usually meaning people who are attracted to masculinity. His work means he's exploring very intimate parts of people's lives at times. Including themes like polyamory, BDSM, and sexual confidence.

We met online and immediately had a great chat, so I was very much looking forward to connecting again.

Here are three self-reflection questions to ponder during our chat, and be sure to stick around after the convo for three more.

1. What images come to mind when I think of terms like kinks and fetishes? Do I carry any judgements?

2. Do I consider myself to be vanilla when it comes to sex, if that's something I participate in?

3. Do I talk about consent with the people in my life?

And now our conversation.

You are white, cisgender, neurodiverse, queer, polyamorous, male, a coach, and an educator. Whew. What do those intersections mean to you?

[00:02:22] Wesley Toma: Those mean that I feel I have a fairly unique outlook on things. I come from some, what most would consider external or outliers in communities. And I believe because of that it gives me a unique perspective of how to view things and how to look at life.

[00:02:44] Chris Angel Murphy: Absolutely. Speaking of how you look at life, I - we're gonna deviate so hard right now, from my original conversation (both laugh) that I was planning to have with you. We'll get there I promise. But I noticed you were drinking Dunking Donuts, like, coffee. You're in Boston, right?

[00:03:00] Wesley Toma: Yes.

[00:03:01] Chris Angel Murphy: Few layers here: I'm gonna take us on this side quest properly.

So first off, there's like this in-community joke that, like, gay or queer people only drink iced coffee. So like check; like we're there.

[00:03:15] Wesley Toma: Mm-hmm.

[00:03:15] Chris Angel Murphy: But the other thing is I saw a meme- my friend Sarah, hi Sarah - she had posted on Instagram saying that like New England folks always drink an iced coffee too.

And I guess, like (laughs) I don't know what I'm asking other than like just, yeah: why is that a thing for that area?

[00:03:39] Wesley Toma: I (exhales) that is a good question. I think it's the same reason that when the weather gets to about 60, we start wearing shorts: we're weird, we're just odd balls. Hot coffee is just too hot. I don't care how cold it is, it's just too hot.

And it's great for like, when you're outside all day. But if you're going from like, you know, the dunks to the car to the office, it's too warm.

[00:03:59] Chris Angel Murphy: The dunks?!

[00:04:00] Wesley Toma: Yeah.

[00:04:01] Chris Angel Murphy: The dunks.

[00:04:02] Wesley Toma: The dunks. Yeah.

[00:04:03] Chris Angel Murphy: OK. We have those here in Colorado.

[00:04:07] Wesley Toma: Mm-hmm.

[00:04:07] Chris Angel Murphy: I have one not that far from me, driving distance. In LA ,when I was living there, we finally got them - I forget, I don't know, I want to say like 2014 or something. Somewhere in there.

[00:04:18] Wesley Toma: Mm-hmm.

[00:04:18] Chris Angel Murphy: And that was a big deal cause it was the first time it had come over, you know. But yeah, it's just wild to me. I mean, and I can't remember if it's queer people or neurodiverse people, there's another joke that we always have three drinks.

[00:04:30] Wesley Toma: Mm-hmm.

[00:04:30] Chris Angel Murphy: Near us at all times. I see you darting your eyes around to your space. And I was guilty as charged this morning because I had my water, I had my cold brew - which was a mistake and that's fine - and my orange juice. And I was like, "Oh. Sometimes it's okay to lean into the stereotypes."

Of course. Yeah. Just for the record, I had my water, my cold brew, and pomegranate juice. (Chris Angel laughs)

Well, there you go (Wesley laughs) . Anyone listening, and you also have three drinks, maybe you've just learned something about yourself (both laugh) today. You're welcome. That's great. Thank you. Awesome. (Wesley laughs) Thank you for going on that journey with me.

Being an allyship podcast, I think especially when my guests talk about mistakes they've made, I also want to be intentional about talking about my mistakes too.

[00:05:17] Wesley Toma: Mm-hmm.

[00:05:17] Chris Angel Murphy: So in our first conversation, I believed kink was a binary. I was having a hard time not seeing it as like a switch that you turn on or off, but you kindly corrected me that it actually really is a spectrum. And the way you laid it out, I was like, "Okay, that totally makes sense."

You also helped me to shift my mindset, because now I'm understanding that more of us are probably kinkier than we realize. Because I think there's certain parts of it, along that spectrum, that yeah, have just maybe been a little bit more normalized, so we don't think, "Oh, that's a kink." Like it's just not how we're walking around, like throwing it in that box.

So viewing "vanilla" and "kink" as a spectrum - I guess just starting there, how do we define those two terms?

[00:06:03] Wesley Toma: I think for me the term "vanilla" is kind of a, a parachute term, but it doesn't actually apply to anybody. I think everybody lies on - just like gender, just like sexuality - everyone lies on the spectrum.

Nobody is - I don't think anybody is a hundred percent gay, a hundred percent straight, a hundred percent male, a hundred percent female. Just like I don't believe anyone's a hundred percent vanilla or a hundred percent kink. By definition, is use - is using external stimulus or an external thing, you know, a toy or a certain process to gain pleasure and excitement from.

Everybody does that to a sense. If you think about - if you boil it down to, and it doesn't necessarily have to be sexual, but if you boil it down to the sexual: anybody who's, who's used a sex toy, that's technically a kink cause it's an external device to gain pleasure.

[00:06:54] Chris Angel Murphy: Mm-hmm.

[00:06:56] Wesley Toma: So on that sense, I think unless you're this person who's literally only done missionary, doors closed, shades drawn, lights off, no toys, you know, not using hands, just kind of penetrative sex - if that's all you've done, then congratulations, you are like probably the one person who is very vanilla.

But I think in, in a sense, everybody has experienced - either experienced or experimented - on the kink spectrum in some way.

[00:07:22] Chris Angel Murphy: Because you've expanded my mind so much with this, I'm even having a hard time seeing that as vanilla because it still feels like external factors you're needing

[00:07:30] Wesley Toma: mm-hmm.

[00:07:31] Chris Angel Murphy: To set a certain mood or tone.

[00:07:32] Wesley Toma: Mm-hmm.

[00:07:33] Chris Angel Murphy: So, yeah, you're changing my world. (Wesley laughs) Thank you . So then, if we're thinking about kinks and fetishes, how do those differ?

[00:07:43] Wesley Toma: So where vanilla and kink is kind of a spectrum, kink and fetish is also its own spectrum. Depending on who you talk to, depending on what kinksters you talk to, they're gonna give you different definitions, just like anything else.

[00:07:54] Chris Angel Murphy: Of course.

[00:07:54] Wesley Toma: In my world, the difference between kink and fetish is the difference between a want and a need. If I had, say, a car fetish - cause again, doesn't have to be sexual - or if I had a car kink, I should say, that would be something like, cars excite me, they turn me on in a certain way. I don't need it, but I want it in my life.

You know, a fetish would be something that without it I can't get excited. So people who need to do certain things to get off or do- need to do certain things to find joy and excitement, that's more on the line of, of a fetish.

And again, I don't think anybody is a hundred percent either/or, I think we all lie on the spectrum. And your kink can be a fetish somewhere along those lines, it just depends on how much you want it versus how much you need it.

[00:08:38] Chris Angel Murphy: So I think this is gonna absolutely take us into very controversial territory, even though this is already something that, you know, is considered taboo.

[00:08:48] Wesley Toma: Mm-hmm.

[00:08:48] Chris Angel Murphy: Part of me is wondering: is it problematic , then, when a person is a fetish? Like, let's say, trans people, non-binary people, something like that. And at what point is it problematic?

[00:09:03] Wesley Toma: I think anytime you're gonna objectify somebody without their permission is problematic.

[00:09:07] Chris Angel Murphy: Okay.

[00:09:08] Wesley Toma: Let's say you're in a relationship with a trans person.

[00:09:10] Chris Angel Murphy: Mm-hmm.

[00:09:10] Wesley Toma: And you have had a conversation, and you have had a negotiation, and you have talked about that - the fact that one person's trans, one person's cis - and you didn't get into it because you had a "trans fetish", but maybe you wanna explore a kink that you're thinking about. And if that's something that this person has consented to, I see no problem with that.

However, if it's something that you're do- you're like, you know, catcalling women who walk down the street is - objectifying.

[00:09:37] Chris Angel Murphy: Yeah.

[00:09:37] Wesley Toma: Fetishizing, you know, trans people fetishizing, especially in the queer community, fetishizing Asian descent, you know. That's problematic because they're not giving permission to be the objects.

[00:09:48] Chris Angel Murphy: What I'm hearing you say is like consent is really key here.

[00:09:51] Wesley Toma: 100% consent is everything. In my opinion, it should be 100% in any relationship.

[00:09:57] Chris Angel Murphy: What are some other kinks that are maybe already normalized that we don't register as kinks?

[00:10:05] Wesley Toma: I mean, the easiest one is toys- a vibrator, using a vibrator in bed. If you, having sexual activity, if you do a little spanking, which you know, everyone spanks a butt once in a while. That's a huge kink. I would say fantasizing about like - you know, this whole thing about like, "I'm having sex with you, but I'm fantasizing about this actor or person that I like." That's also, kind of falls into kink because it, it is using that external stimulus.

[00:10:32] Chris Angel Murphy: Mm-hmm.

[00:10:33] Wesley Toma: So, I mean, there's a lot of things that we do that we, that we don't think of as kinky, but technically (laughs) still falls on that spectrum.

[00:10:43] Chris Angel Murphy: Yeah, cause I think a kink I'm familiar with that seems to be fairly normalized amongst like, I think gay, queer, et cetera, like, Men.

[00:10:56] Wesley Toma: Mm-hmm.

[00:10:56] Chris Angel Murphy: Is like a foot fetish.

[00:10:58] Wesley Toma: Yes.

[00:10:58] Chris Angel Murphy: Because I know sometimes people have like feet, you know, photos

[00:11:02] Wesley Toma: Mm-hmm.

[00:11:03] Chris Angel Murphy: Or foot photos or whatever, like in their profile.

[00:11:05] Wesley Toma: Mm-hmm.

[00:11:06] Chris Angel Murphy: And things like that. How do we continue to normalize kink? . That's a big question, yeah. (laughs)

[00:11:16] Wesley Toma: Talk about it.

[00:11:17] Chris Angel Murphy: Mm-hmm.

[00:11:17] Wesley Toma: Yeah, talk about it. Also for the record, foot fetish is, I, I believe foot fetish is like one of the, if not the biggest, most common kink out there.

Not necessarily just in the queer community, but even in the straight community. It was one of the most common ones.

[00:11:31] Chris Angel Murphy: Why do you think that is?

[00:11:33] Wesley Toma: I don't know, (laughs) I really don't know. And, and honestly - and speaking as a person who has a foot kink, you know myself, I don't know why I like it, I just do. But to normalize it for me.

[00:11:46] Chris Angel Murphy: Yeah.

[00:11:47] Wesley Toma: I think the way to normalize these things is to talk about them, is to be open and honest and have these conversations. And have these conversations not only between people who have the same feeling; like, I could have this conversation with a kinkster and it's going nowhere. But if I have this conversation with like someone who's vanilla, who is exploring kink or wants, who has thought about it, I'm opening the eyes.

It helps normalize it more that way. I think that's what you need to do. We need to one, talk about it and also remove the stigma. Everyone thinks of kinks as like these dirty, nasty, gross things and they're not. And I think part of it is the fact that as a society we also aren't very sex positive. So it's like I said, it is a tough question to answer because there's a lot of facets here.

You know how we need to talk about sex, we need to be positive, more positive about sex, we need to be more positive about kink, and we need to just talk about it. And I - if we can do that, which is a huge ask, but I think if we do that, things would become, would become more normalized and be better, you know.

But regardless of that, that's, that's what I'm working towards myself. I, you know, I will - that's why I go on, do these interviews. That's why I like, I love talking about it because I want to verbalize, I wanna normalize it, and I wanna make it more every day. Like, who cares?

[00:13:06] Chris Angel Murphy: Thinking about normalizing this across the board, how will we know when we are seeing that tide sort of shift? Like what do you think are some of the things we might see to know that that's changing?

[00:13:23] Wesley Toma: I feel that going back, I, I equate it to the gay rights, queer rights movements from like the 80s and 90s. At one time, before it was really accepted, we were a joke.

Only time you saw us, saw a gay person on tv, they were the butt of a joke. They were the comic relief. They were the victim. You know, which, and honestly, you can still see that - you can say that today about the trans community still kind of in that place that - and they're still working their way out of it.

Kink is the same thing. If you see it on TV, for example, it's usually like, oh as a joke or it's like a farcical, or it's like supposed to be for, like, extreme comedy.

Once it stops becoming the target is when it starts to be normalized and you can start talking about it in everyday conversations. I know people who are kinky at work, but they can't talk about it at work because that's a major HR violation, right. But they would love to be able to relate to or connect.

You have, you know, pride or LGBTQ affinity groups at these major companies. You have, they have for, you know, people of color. You have that for veterans. But if you went to your, like your HR and said, "Hey, I wanna start this group for kinky people." You're probably gonna be looking for another job.

I feel like once that becomes more accepted and people understand that, just because you're talking about kink doesn't mean you're talking about sex all the time, and doesn't mean you're always being - I don't wanna say offensive - but you're not saying something that people aren't gonna dislike. Then that's when I think it'll start becoming normalized.

Because what's funny is honestly - the little bit of a sidetrack here - when I talk to other gangsters, we don't talk kink. We just, we have an understanding. We know we're kinky, we move past it. We talk about cats. We talk about our pets. We talk about Star Trek, and we talk about silly shit (Chris Angel laughs) you know. The last thing we- we don't talk about our, you know, we don't talk about our individual kinks and how they run.

I have friends that are kinky friends that I've known for over a decade. I still don't know what their kinks are. And I don't care, because I'm not sleeping with them and I don't need to know.

[00:15:24] Chris Angel Murphy: So in that case, you know, when you're being with other folks who are kinksters, what does that help, like, unlock in you that even though you don't need to talk about it and all of that - and I, I understand that - like, yeah; I guess what does that do for you as a person that like it's important for you to be part of that community and, and have those folks that you're hanging out with, for example?

[00:15:44] Wesley Toma: Same thing with having fellow queers around you. People that understand and you can relate to. You know, people that have walked the walk, have traveled the journey with you. It's that comradery. It's that community. It's that feeling of equality amongst people.

I think it, it's kind of, it's something that I would honestly say any marginalized group has ever dealt with - even, you know, like, people of color stick together because they've been racially profiled. So they understand and they, they're kind of - they can relate to each other.

Queer people stick together because we've been profiled. We know, you know, we can, we can relate to each other. And, you know, same thing with, with the kinksters, and again, you know, you look at it, it's like, when I'm with my, my queer friends, we don't talk about, you know, gay and being gay and "Oh my god, I love being a gay." And you know, we don't do that .

When I talk to my neurodiverse friends, I don't - we don't talk about our neurodiversities, you know, on a regular basis. We talk about other shit, you know?

And so it's like, I think, yeah, I think the part of it is finding that community of people, whether it's discussed or not, it's just finding a group of people that you can relate to that - if this topic comes up, you know, you don't have to be afraid to talk about it.

[00:17:02] Chris Angel Murphy: Something else that you had discussed with me previously is that kink also needs to be decriminalized.

[00:17:11] Wesley Toma: Mm-hmm.

[00:17:12] Chris Angel Murphy: So I'm wondering if you can share more about that and what's currently happening with where you live. Because you even told me that for some things that you like to do, you have to travel in order to have access to those spaces.

[00:17:26] Wesley Toma: Yes. As you said, I'm in Boston. Massachusetts is based on a very puritanical past. A lot of our laws in the book are from the puritanical times. One of the laws are, even if it's consensual, any kind of impact play or any kind of like spanking, any kind of, you know, whipping - that stuff, BDSM in general, even if it's consensual, even if your partner says, "I consented" - you can still be arrested and tried for it and found guilty for, for abuse because of the puritanical rules.

In Boston, we don't have any sex dungeons because for that very reason, because they're liable for anybody who decides to press charges. So if I want to do anything, I have to go to Rhode Island to go to a dungeon, to have a little kinky fun.

If you look at the, the DSM or whatever it is, it wasn't until this version which came out a couple of years ago, five, 10 years ago, I think.

[00:18:19] Chris Angel Murphy: Mm-hmm.

[00:18:19] Wesley Toma: That being a kinkster or a fetish wasn't considered a mental illness. You know, you go to the the Bible Belt, you go to the Midwest, anal sex is still considered illegal. You know, whether it's, you know, I mean, it's obviously targeted towards the queer community, but whether you're gay or straight, that's considered an illegal act and you could get a arrested for that.

So I think we need to, you know, things need to be decriminalized. These laws need to be taken off the books so people don't feel ashamed and they feel more comfortable exploring things.

Because the way I look at it is anytime you, you know, you do stuff like this, you, you criminalize something like this, you kind of put a, a law against it, and it goes back to prohibition. You fight it or you criminalize something, you're gonna have people who are gonna fight against it.

But you're also have people who are gonna be ashamed to try it or experience it, even though it's not gonna hurt anybody, you know, at least not consensual - unconsensually. So, you know, once we decriminalize it, I think it's gonna open the door to that larger conversation.

[00:19:23] Chris Angel Murphy: Yeah. Like you said, there's a lot of work to do, cause I forget what the number is in Texas, I don't know if it's three or five, but you can only own so many dildos or vibrators. And I'm like, really?

(in disembodied singing voice) The answer is six dildos.

And some laws that we have are just like oddly specific; like you can't wear blue jeans on a Sunday or something. I don't know. I don't know if that's like a real one, but it's usually like that.

[00:19:50] Wesley Toma: Yeah.

[00:19:51] Chris Angel Murphy: So it's just like interesting thinking about this and like what happened that that like had to become a law, right? So

[00:19:58] Wesley Toma: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

[00:20:00] Chris Angel Murphy: Even with all of the work you and I could possibly do, and again, even though I'm not a white man - sometimes we'll just never be a safer space for someone and have to make peace with that because of what we might represent, previous experiences that person's had, et cetera.

So my question for you is, again, as we have covered, you are a white male and you're also at all of these awesome intersections which we've been diving into - and of course I don't want to ignore that or gloss over those - though I think it's safe to say, and maybe you might agree with me, that you know, these two intersections in particular stick out a lot and impact how others interact with you.

And so, being in a space that's so vulnerable, like coaching people through relationship and intimacy concerns, especially mixing in LGBTQIA+ and kink communities, how do you create safer spaces for the people you work with and what kind of work have you done to get there?

[00:20:59] Wesley Toma: I look at the wheel of privilege and I fall very high on a lot of those sections.

[00:21:03] Chris Angel Murphy: Hmm.

[00:21:04] Wesley Toma: I know that and I accept that, and I understand that. Part of me creating that safe space is the fact that I can acknowledge that and I can acknowledge the fact that yes, I am, not even am I a white man, I'm a cis white man.

And you know, I'm a cis white, straight passing white man.

[00:21:21] Chris Angel Murphy: Right.

[00:21:22] Wesley Toma: So I have a lot of things, you know, middle class, you know, I have a lot of things that are in my quote, unquote "my favor." So for me, trying to create that safe space, It's about building the trust; it's about showing. It's not be like, "Well, I'm safe. You can trust me." It's not about saying it, it's about proving it; it's about showing it.

The burden of the ally is to show that you are the ally - you know, you can't name yourself the ally, but you need to prove that you are the ally you want to be. You need to be that ally. You know, I do have to work harder to gain that trust sometimes, I do have to work harder to gain that understanding.

I also understand that there are a lot of things that may be discussed that I don't, I can't relate to because of I tick those boxes.

[00:22:04] Chris Angel Murphy: Right.

[00:22:04] Wesley Toma: And you know, it's not about relating, it's about working with and empathizing and trying to see things from somebody's perspective, but it's more like just kind of being there for them to understand how they feel through this perspective.

So yeah, it is a lot more work being the ally, allying is something that's huge, very important to me. So I find it more rewarding to - I don't wanna say I find it more rewarding to, to take that journey - but I do find it as someone who wants to ally, who wants to be an ally for as many people as possible, I do find it relieving to have to take that trip. And I'm okay with that.

So when people talk about, oh, you know, "men this, men that," I'm like, yeah, you're right (laughs) , we, we suck (Chris Angel laughs) . We are, we are terrible people. You know, I can completely relate to that. Yeah. I'm not gonna sit here and say, well, you know, not all of us because I, yeah, it's, it's not all of us, but that's not the point.

[00:23:02] Chris Angel Murphy: Right.

[00:23:02] Wesley Toma: I find more rewarding when I can get through those, those boundaries and be the person. I'm hoping to be for that person.

[00:23:10] Chris Angel Murphy: Yeah, cause it's tricky. Even as an LGBTQ+ speaker, trainer, and consultant, a lot of the reason why I'll have a consult call with a company is cause I might not be a good fit. Even just personality wise, I'm silly.

[00:23:25] Wesley Toma: Mm-hmm.

[00:23:25] Chris Angel Murphy: Like I don't stray from that at all. Like I very much own it because part of creating a safer space, for me, means that I help diffuse some of the crunchiness of these topics with humor. That's just how I do it. I don't do that with every single topic that I cover, but it heavily influences my work. But that might not be for every workplace culture.

So I imagine there must be times where, after you've had some sort of - I assume you have like consultation calls with people before, yeah - so I imagine there's times that you have to like refer out because it's just yeah, like not a good fit.

[00:24:02] Wesley Toma: Mm-hmm. Absolutely. My first session is always free. It is that get-to-know-each-other session. Learning what you wanna get out of this. Learning about who I am, seeing if we mesh. It's just like, and you see a therapist and they tell you, "If I'm not the right therapist for you, go see another therapist."

And I do; I have a Rolodex of coaches that I can refer out. That if I'm not a fit, that's fine.

What are you looking for? Do you want someone who's who I identifies as female? Do you want someone who is, you know, trans? Do you want someone who is AFAB regardless of whatever?

[00:24:33] Chris Angel Murphy: Mm-hmm.

[00:24:34] Wesley Toma: Do you want someone who's not white? I have a Rolodex and I have a list of people I can say, "Well, talk to this person, check this person out and see if they'll help you. And if not, they should have a Rolodex of people that they can then do the referral."

You do want to find the right person, because anything like this, you can get very intimate and very into their personal life, and you wanna make sure that trust is there in order to get the most out of the situation. Like, I don't want somebody who doesn't trust me because then they're not gonna tell me everything and they're not gonna open up to me like they need to, and that's, that's the whole point of it.

[00:25:08] Chris Angel Murphy: What are some of the ways that you approach building trust with clients?

[00:25:13] Wesley Toma: The biggest thing for me is showing that I'm not, I guess the best term to use is not gonna mansplain. Showing that I'm there to listen and I'm there to understand ,and not talk over somebody, speaks leaps and bounds.

[00:25:27] Chris Angel Murphy: Mm-hmm.

[00:25:29] Wesley Toma: I know people who have said they've seen therapists that basically just talk over them the whole time. So, you know, for me it's not about talking. It's about listening, it's about understanding, it's about relating and it is about showing the empathy, showing the, "I don't understand your pain cause I have not been there, but I can empathize with how you feel and I'm sorry you feel that way. How can I help? How can we make it better?"

I try to show I'm compassionate and I try to show that I'm not in it just to do it. I want to genuinely help and I wanna genuinely be there for you.

[00:26:01] Chris Angel Murphy: You had shared with me that being queer is well-accepted in the kink community. We just like covered a lot in our first hang, like I'm just recognizing cause (Wesley laughs) I just keep referencing all these things. (laughs) It was a really big, big thing for me. So I really am grateful for everything that you've shared with me.

But yeah, so , you had shared with me that being queer is well-accepted in the kink community, and I think that's something I've picked up on. But you also stated that public spaces for it are mostly catered to cishet couples, aka folks who are both cisgender and heterosexual.

[00:26:35] Wesley Toma: Mm-hmm.

[00:26:36] Chris Angel Murphy: So, I guess I'm curious about why do you think that is and what would help to queer it up ? (laughs)

[00:26:42] Wesley Toma: I think for me that comes from personal experience. I know that if you go out west to San Francisco, it is a much different kink community there that is more queer-friendly.

But here in, on the east coast, it is, you know, the dungeons and the sex places you can go are very geared towards, you know, the cis, the straits, you know, folk, couples and - and specifically couples, not even just like individuals. It, you know, it's about a man and a woman, a cis man and cis woman coming in as a couple to play.

The best way to clear it up is to just open the doors and not - like, I mean the doors are open, I can't say they're not, you know, we are accepted, but we're not the targets. I think a lot of these communities, I think they all have these places, need to make it a safe space, not only for the cishet couple, but you know, the queer, trans couple that comes in, or the gay couple, the couple lesbians or whatever.

Don't just assume that they know it's safe; show them it's safe. And I think to me it just makes sense on a business perspective cause you're just gonna open your doors up to a lot more people. It also frees up a lot of the stigma and removes that uncomfortability.

Like I could, like I said, I can go to a sex dungeon in Rhode Island, but every time I go I'm feeling "Well, I'm not their target audience." So I have that bit of doubt or a bit of, you know, issue that I'm fighting in my brain because I'm queer, because I'm not, you know, heterosexual, I'm not bringing a woman with me - or I should say a cis woman with me. So I feel like because of that, there's always that little bit, and it would be nice to be able to walk in without having that.

[00:28:29] Chris Angel Murphy: Thinking back to what you said, even about sex shops, growing up in Los Angeles, it took me until I was in my grad school program, I was taking some sort of version of a human sexuality class, and one of the assignments somehow I think, was that I had to go to a sex shop. And I had to talk about it and who it was catered to it and everything, and I had never thought about that before.

I'd been in sex shops before, but I never thought about like, "Who is it catered to?" I think I've just like, at that point, I was just really used to things being catered to cishet folks, like you said. So it was just like, if I see a packer for trans people or something, or a tucker or something, I'll just be like pleasantly surprised, (laughs) and happy about it.

[00:29:15] Wesley Toma: Mm-hmm.

[00:29:17] Chris Angel Murphy: I remember where I was living in particular, there was this like franchise or chain or whatever of some of them. And so the one I entered was one of those, and really it was catered to couples that yeah, were much newer to exploring these kinds of things and were probably like giggling and embarrassed and you had like stereotypical stuff like, I don't know, like the maid outfit or something like that, right.

But then if you went over the hill to the west side, there was a place called the Pleasure Chest; and it's still there and it's in West Hollywood and I love it. And the ways that they've demonstrated that they're far more inclusive and progressive is that even the workshops that they offer for folks to go to, to dive into this world, they have packers. Like they have so many different kinds of things.

They never, in my experiences of being there, made any sort of judgment as far as like what they thought I might be looking for. They always, like, asked me curious questions and made me feel comfortable.

And, so for some folks, maybe the best place you can find that is online, and that's not great, because - maybe in some ways it's good because, okay, even though I have to like buy it, usually they offer things like discreet shipping and packaging, which is great - but yeah, but then you don't really get the personal touch of being able to like, yeah, engage with someone and they can give you personal recommendations. Right?

Because maybe there's things that are there that you're like, "Oh yeah, I want to get that." But they could say, "Actually, you know, you might like this better." You know, pros and cons to all of that.

But, For folks not familiar with the dungeons, could you explain more about, like, what those are and typically what you might see?

[00:31:04] Wesley Toma: It really depends on the dungeon, but it's, a lot of it is separate areas for play, you can set up tables, you have the benches, you have like, you know, the St. Andrews cross slings, and you go in and you can play together. You can, as a couple, go in and play with other people, if that's something that was obviously discussed and consented about.

Kink toys, sex toys, and sex furniture; it's really expensive. So it's a way to be able to use that stuff without having to have such the expense of like spending a thousand dollars, for example, on a St. Andrews cross. You know, you can pay $30, $40 to get in for the day and play with it. It's kind of like the Toys "R" Us for the kink, I would say.

[00:31:51] Chris Angel Murphy: If someone is interested in exploring a place like that and they don't have someone to go with that already knows like the lay of the land, so to speak, how could they know, maybe, what to expect? Like, should they call ahead of time? Is there like a website that kind of like talks a bit more about like the process or - yeah, how does all that happen?

[00:32:12] Wesley Toma: Well most dungeons will have their own website. Just like any other business, they have a website, which kind of explains a lot of the, in detail some detail about how it works.

I find the one website that I think is top of anybody's list for fetish websites, it's also the top of everyone's "not like" list because it's not a great website, but it's the only, it is like the website and that's fetlife.com. You can go on fetlife.com, you can set up an account, it's like a social media for kinksters basically.

And they have a section for events and you can look at your area for events that are happening. So you can go to an event and you can be like, "Hey, I'm new." And there's always gonna be somebody there, that's willing to take you, talk to you, walk you through it. Of anything, that's probably the best way to do it; is find an event, find an activity, and go and you know, just be open.

Like the one thing I, you know, one thing I tell my clients and I tell a lot of people is we were all new kinksters at one time. We've all been in this situation where we didn't know what the fuck we were doing (both laugh) you know. We were not all born professionals or experts in this field. So we understand how you feel. We understand the situation.

We understand, and especially when it comes to like something like this, we understand how uncomfortable it can be to be in a room with, like, a play party while people are basically having sex around you and you don't know what to do. (laughs)

We understand that, and I, I feel because of that, we tend to be a little bit more relaxed and a little bit more open and say, "Hey, how you doing? Oh, you're new. Okay, let's talk. Let me help you." Yeah, I would say the best way to get started is to find like maybe go on FetLife or go on a - and just find local kinky events.

[00:33:55] Chris Angel Murphy: Thinking about play, we live in a very different world now, and more specifically, I'm thinking about technology. I know that if I'm gonna play with someone, I feel safer, in some respects, having someone come to me. Cause, although I don't really want people to always have my address, I can control the environment, right? Like I don't have to worry about like maybe hidden cameras and being on someone's Only Fans page or, or something like that.

So I guess, you know, when it comes to maybe sex parties, people may throw, or the dungeons and, and everything like that - and I'm not trying to instill more fear in people (both laugh) , especially if like, they were like, "Okay", considering it and now they're like, "Nope. Okay. Fuck that."

[00:34:39] Wesley Toma: Mm-hmm.

[00:34:40] Chris Angel Murphy: You know, when I'm thinking about these kinds of communities and how vulnerable they can be, there's negotiation, there's consent, there's communication, and some of these skills we're not great at.

[00:34:49] Wesley Toma: Mm-hmm.

[00:34:50] Chris Angel Murphy: And it takes a lot of work. I guess like starting with the dungeons, like are there rules about like you have to like check your cell phone at the door or like what kinds of things are in place for that? Especially if someone's, like, really private.

[00:35:04] Wesley Toma: Again, depends on the dungeons. Some of them do that, some of them have like lockers that you put your stuff in and you know, you can just leave it in there and lock it up, move on.

But at least when it comes to like the private parties, every one I've ever gone to - one, first of all, you should always vet the party you're going to.

[00:35:18] Chris Angel Murphy: Yeah.

[00:35:18] Wesley Toma: I don't wanna say, you know, it's a trusting party, but you can know it's a more trusting party when they vet who's coming to their party. I don't go to any parties that just open to the general public.

I wanna go to a party that's, that you're being vetted. They wanna make sure you're, you know, you're legit, you're a kinkster, you're not an asshole, you're not a creeper. And then they'll let you in. Most of those parties will tell you, no photos, no cameras. You can have your cell phone, but do not take a picture without at least asking permission first.

[00:35:46] Chris Angel Murphy: Mm-hmm.

[00:35:47] Wesley Toma: And if you get permission, don't post it unless asking permission first. You know, every party I've ever been to, every event I've ever been to, whether it was a play party or just like a get together, like we have lunches where we just kind of, people just get together and chat.

Again, if it's a community, and you know, they all will tell you: no pictures, don't take pictures. Because again, being an out kinkster, for a lot of people, is not a good thing. It's, and it's a scary thing and it's, it's a, it's a - not only a life threatening, but a career threatening thing.

[00:36:17] Chris Angel Murphy: Oh yeah. We just saw, what was it, the weather person get fired?

[00:36:20] Wesley Toma: Yeah.

[00:36:20] Chris Angel Murphy: It was enraging because it was on his own personal time and it was something he was consensually engaging in with other adults, and it was also not meant to be recorded.

[00:36:33] Wesley Toma: Right.

[00:36:33] Chris Angel Murphy: In the first place. So like there's just a lot of violations happening there. I think he's been like such a great sport about it and how he's been addressing it and everything.

[00:36:41] Wesley Toma: Mm-hmm.

[00:36:41] Chris Angel Murphy: And I think that's also a way of helping to normalize things. But yeah, how he's been getting treated as a result of all this, I've just felt was really unfair. And if I, I wonder if also a piece of it too is just, like, the homophobia of it as well. Like, it's just like another added layer.

[00:36:56] Wesley Toma: Oh yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I, like I said: vet the group. The one thing, and like you said about technology, anything that I've ever done has had some sort of internet presence. Either a social media presence or some sort of like chatting, you know, you have Telegram, you have Facebook Messenger, you have Discord. Every group I've been part of has usually has a group on one of those that you can join.

And what's good about that as well is you can get to know people outside of the party. You can see how the experience is, if it's a bad place to be, those groups are gonna show very quickly, in the chats, that they're not necessarily the safest space. And you know, again, just like anything else, there are people out there that don't have your best interest at hand.

[00:37:44] Chris Angel Murphy: Yeah.

[00:37:45] Wesley Toma: Doesn't matter what group you're talking about, there are people like that. So you, you do have to be careful, but, and just like if you're with a partner and you don't feel comfortable, don't do it.

[00:37:54] Chris Angel Murphy: Right.

[00:37:55] Wesley Toma: If you're at a party, you don't feel comfortable, don't stay. You know, if something about it just feels, if your intuition is just telling you something, listen to your intuition. Even if it's wrong, it's better to be safe than sorry.

[00:38:06] Chris Angel Murphy: Sometimes I find, especially because I'm autistic, it's helpful to have almost like a script to work with.

[00:38:13] Wesley Toma: Mm-hmm.

[00:38:13] Chris Angel Murphy: So if I wanted to quickly and safely exit something like that, what do you think is like a really good, quick way to just say, "I'm outta here"? But like, without raising red flags or suspicions or anything, or having people press it further. Just, "You know what, I gotta go." Like what are some ways that someone could say that.

[00:38:35] Wesley Toma: It's hard. (laughs) I know some of the parties that I've been to, I feel like I could have walked up to one of the organizers who's - and been honest, like, "Hey, I don't feel comfortable. I'm just gonna go, it's probably just me. But I, you know, whatever I'm -"

But if I didn't wanna be that honest, I would just kind of be like "I'll be right back. I'm just gonna go grab something outta my car and then just don't come back." And honestly, most of the time, you know, most people don't even notice you didn't come back.

You know, you're, you're one of many, and like, especially if it's your first time, nobody's gonna even remember you. If you're there for an hour, you're feeling uncomfortable, you go to your car to grab something and then you leave. They can be like, "Wasn't there someone, oh, whatever. No big deal. Moving on."

[00:39:15] Chris Angel Murphy: I mean, I would hope as a host that you'd like try to follow up with the person and be like, "Hey, I just wanted to check in on you. Like, I noticed you left and you didn't come back. Like, is everything okay?" But yeah.

[00:39:24] Wesley Toma: Yeah. If it's a good host, they will. And that's, you know, and, and then you can have that conversation in private, you know, over, maybe over the internet, you know, where you feel a little bit more safer to be open and honest. You know, even if I walked up to someone and say, "Hey, I don't feel comfortable. I'm gonna go, I don't wanna talk about it now." But maybe later, you know, a good host will reach out later and say, "Hey, I'd love to know, you know-" So they can correct that issue, if that's an issue they wanna correct, yes.

[00:39:48] Chris Angel Murphy: I love that. Yeah, I hate conflict (both laugh) . I'm just like, "Just let me leave." Like cause.

[00:39:53] Wesley Toma: Yeah.

[00:39:54] Chris Angel Murphy: Like I know there's like the Irish goodbye, you just leave. Just -

[00:39:58] Wesley Toma: Mm-hmm.

[00:39:58] Chris Angel Murphy: Ideally, like no one notices at all. But yeah, I'd feel weird just leaving. I'd have so much anxiety coming up with something (Wesley laughs) or anything like that, so thank you.

[00:40:07] Wesley Toma: Yeah.

[00:40:08] Chris Angel Murphy: When you're doing your coaching -

[00:40:10] Wesley Toma: Yes.

[00:40:11] Chris Angel Murphy: I imagine there are some questions you get routinely asked that you've come to expect. I'm curious about what's a question you wish people would come with more?

[00:40:25] Wesley Toma: Hmm.

[00:40:26] Chris Angel Murphy: That maybe you feel like doesn't get talked about enough or something like that?

[00:40:31] Wesley Toma: For me, the one thing I wish people would ask more about is consent and negotiation. Yeah, again, in the kink community, it's very widely used and very important; but I don't always deal with just kinky people. You know, like I, I work with the queer community. I even work with the straight, cis community. You know, I work with anybody who wants to work with me.

And in the quote unquote "vanilla world," negotiation in consent are not usually top of mind. Yes, consent is a big deal, but it's usually assumed consent until told otherwise, and that's not necessarily the best way to go.

I wish people would talk about how to have that conversation, how to get that consent from people. I wish people would want to have that conversation instead of just jumping into it and feeling their way through it and hoping for the best.

[00:41:20] Chris Angel Murphy: I know that I've seen examples of consent being very sexy in different kinds of media.

[00:41:26] Wesley Toma: Mm-hmm.

[00:41:28] Chris Angel Murphy: I think a fear, even with a previous partner, has been that my partner thought it would be - like it would bring down the mood, bring down like the arousal, or the hotness or something of it. So I do think consent is sexy cause I want to know that, you know, I am engaged consensually with someone in whatever the activity is. Even non-sexual things.

And so, I guess, yeah, in your experience, what are some ways that you can keep the consent sexy? Like what are some ways that you can check in with your partner and it just, it's not like, "Do you consent to this interaction?" (both laugh) Like, you know, like, yeah.

[00:42:09] Wesley Toma: For me it's all about the foreplay. You know? Like I can have that conversation with someone. I can have it very, very, like cold and say, "Okay, what do you like? What you don't like? What's a hard stop? What are your limits? Let's move on."

Or you can have the conversation, (changes tone) "Hey, so what do you like? Oh yeah, you like that? Okay, well what if I want to do something like this? Is that, are you okay with that? Oh yeah, no. Okay, that's cool." You know, kind of play it up and enjoy. Make it part of the game. Make it part of the interaction. Make it sexy.

You know, you don't have, it doesn't have to be clinical. My negotiation isn't always - sometimes it is, cause that's just, sometimes it just works out that way. But so, It can be part of the game, it can be part of the experience, like, "Oh yeah, you like it when I touch you like this. Okay. Or How about this? Or what about that? Oh, yeah, okay. That, you know, what should I not do? Oh, yeah, you don't like, okay, that's cool. Yeah."

You know, just, you know what I mean? Like play into it and just kind of - the way I look at it, and this is the way I explain it, people, is we call it "play," it's a game.

Like I'm not saying like, you know, being "sex is a game," but I'm like - what I mean, it's like, it's fun. It's supposed to be fun. You're supposed to enjoy yourself. You're supposed to have fun with a person, play a game with a person and then enjoy it. So why not just make it all part of that game?

[00:43:20] Chris Angel Murphy: Something that I don't think it's talked about enough and it's possible folks listening now may have not even heard of this term before, but I'm thinking about aftercare. And so, right. It's maybe the things you might need after you've engaged in sex with somebody, like cuddling or something like that. I guess, could you just talk more about that broadly?

[00:43:47] Wesley Toma: Yeah. So aftercare, because what we do as kinksters is potentially - well one, potentially dangerous. Because there are a lot of kinks out there that can be aggressive, can be violent, you know, obviously under controlled situation, but still things that that happen.

There are some kinks that put you in very specific states of mind. And because of that, in order to come down from that, a lot of people need specific treatment post, you know what, what we call the scene. Anytime you have a sexual encounter, it's a scene whether - for me, it's a scene, whether it's a kinky one or not. But in the kink community, that's what we, we call, you know, having a encounter is a "scene."

After a scene, you need a very specific way of coming down. Like if I'm working with a sub who likes to be spanked, like hard, I'm gonna spank them until they're raw.

But then afterwards they may need to just like sit in a corner and just kind of decompress, or they may just need me to cuddle them and tell them that they're special, that, that I care about them. And you know, on the same side of it as, you know, a dom myself, I need to have care.

Cause if I'm gonna sit here spending the next two hours spanking you and calling you names, I'm gonna need some time afterwards to realize that I'm not that asshole. I'm a genuinely good person who's doing something to give you pleasure. I'm not genuinely that person, you know.

It's important. I think anytime we - any kind of sexual encounter, or again, whether kinky or not, aftercare happens. And again, in the vanilla world, it's kind of assumed, you know, you do it, there's a little bit of cuddling and talking afterwards; that's aftercare. Or you do it and then you leave right away, that could be aftercare too.

[00:45:25] Chris Angel Murphy: I think the imagery I get in my head when thinking about media again, which isn't always a great place to get our information, (Wesley laughs) but I think there's like the ongoing joke, first off, that cishet couples are just always miserable and always joking about how miserable they are being married to each other and stuff.

And it's like, well, maybe, maybe you're queer or something (both laugh) or, I don't know, go work on that; because you shouldn't hate each other that much or at all. I'll see a lot of sex scenes that end in like, again, let's say it's cishet, the guy rolls over and goes to sleep.

[00:45:55] Wesley Toma: Mm-hmm.

[00:45:55] Chris Angel Murphy: I don't think that's really aftercare.

[00:45:56] Wesley Toma: No, not at all.

[00:45:57] Chris Angel Murphy: And I don't think any conversation was had about aftercare. So like, if someone's wanting to think about that and also introduce that into a relationship more intentionally, how can like someone even figure out what they need for aftercare? Is it just sort of like trial and error?

[00:46:13] Wesley Toma: Kinda, it's just kind of figuring out what - it's knowing yourself. I think the first couple times we do things, we don't realize what we need for - I don't go into a scene, or at least at the beginning, I didn't go into a scene knowing what I need for aftercare. And sometimes I'll still do scenes that I've, I'm fairly new with that the aftercare is different and I may not know what that aftercare is.

You know, a spanking scene is gonna be different aftercare than say a tickling scene. It is kind of trial and error. I like to cuddle. I like to talk afterwards, regardless of what it is. That's the general gist of my aftercare.

I've been with people who, their aftercare was literally smoking a bowl and getting out. Like they don't wanna touch, they don't wanna look at - they don't wanna talk. They just wanna smoke a bowl and leave and that's cool, if that's what they're into.

But you know, again, that's a conversation we had ahead of time and I knew that their aftercare conflicted with my aftercare, so I figured out a way around it, which was - I know like, I have my husband here. So if I'm with a partner, as an example who wants to just, you know, get up and go, then I will go to him for my aftercare.

I will find a way to give myself that aftercare that I need without that person, or if I can't, I just won't play with that person.

[00:47:26] Chris Angel Murphy: What's one allyship tip you'd like for everyone listening to consider?

[00:47:31] Wesley Toma: You need to learn when it's appropriate to stand in front of, next to, or behind the person and support them in that position as they see fit.

The best way to do it is just be straight up and blunt, "What do you need? How can I support you? What you want in this moment?" And on top of that, if you take a stance, and they correct you, accept it, move on, don't be offended, just, "You're right." Take the step in the in another position as is needed.

[00:48:01] Chris Angel Murphy: Wesley, thank you so much for your visibility, vulnerability, and corrections.

In our first conversation, I learned so much and it was nice to be able to apply it right away to this chat because you challenged me. And while you didn't have to do that, you did, and I am so grateful.

And this feels like a good time to share out that I'm on this allyship journey too, I make mistakes. I will make more mistakes in future episodes that you will hear very soon, and I want you to hear the ways that we can learn and move forward together, so you know that I'm in this with you: because allyship is messy work.

And while some of these scenarios are set in a caring, supportive environment, and maybe I have enough rapport with someone that we can bounce back what seems like almost effortlessly, I know that's not always gonna be the reality. We are human. Before we wrap up with the final three self-reflection questions, I want to take a moment to thank Julie for becoming a monthly supporter.

Some of y'all already know what's about to happen: (cheerful disembodied voice) Thank you, Julie.

If you'd also like to help out so I can continue to produce this podcast and get the support I need to make it, details are in the captions and show notes. Thank you so, so, so much. And one-off donations are also welcome, no donation is too small.

All right, here are the final three self-reflection questions for you to take with you:

4. Have I ever heard of the term "aftercare" before? Is that something I discuss with any partners?

5. How are my communication skills? Are there any areas that I could improve?

6. Have I come across the wheel of privilege? Do I know where I fall on it?

Visit AllyshipIsAVerb.com for any resources and a full transcript of the episode. And remember, sometimes allyship means learning when it's appropriate to stand in front of, next to, or behind someone.