[00:00:17] Chris Angel Murphy
Well, hello there. My name is Chris Angel and my pronouns are they/them. Welcome to Allyship is a Verb, the LGBTQ+ podcast that explores and humanizes practicing allyship for the LGBTQ+ community and beyond.

[00:00:38] Provvidenza Catalano
Hi there, it's Provvidenza Catalano and my pronouns are they/them.

[00:00:42] Chris Angel Murphy
Provvidenza is a delightful human who is an actor, writer, and organizer based in Los Angeles, California. I learned about their work because of my friend Jaffe, who will be on the podcast early next year, produces a drag show and Provvidenza hosts it. And my [Chris Angel laughs] goodness, do they host it. When the pandemic hit, the show had to quickly pivot to online and since the show is in Los Angeles, where I'm originally from, but I moved away a few years ago, I was finally able to watch it online from the comforts of Denver, Colorado.

Although I don't watch many drag events or shows because it's just not always my thing, there's something super [Chris Angel pauses] magnetic about their personality for me, and I started following them on Instagram. Some of what I appreciate about them the most is how freaking smart they are about various issues, how funny, and also there's something about their vulnerability. Provvidenza's work centers on the intersections of queerness gender, that bodies chronic illness, and the search for emotional fullness. Please check out their episode page and support their work. And if you ever have the privilege of seeing them perform in person or online, please tip them well.

[00:02:02] Chris Angel Murphy
As a quick reminder, before the episode gets started, I'm taking a break for December, but season one will resume January 4, 2022. Wow, [Chris Angel laughs] I have to get used to saying that. And now here's the conversation.

[00:02:17] Chris Angel Murphy
You are trans, fat, and queer! And for [Chris Angel laughs] those of you listening, I am absolutely fist-pumping into the air with each one. If it sounded like that at all. Can you share what those identities mean to you?

[00:02:33] Provvidenza Catalano
Sure. I mean, I think that what my identities mean to me at this point in my life, is exploration, questions, and unravelings. Something that I've realized as I've gotten older, and [Provvidenza laughs] also as like an adult on TikTok, is that we- a lot of us go through a similar pattern when we're sort of discovering who we are and especially if we have identities that interact with the world in a, you know, different cultural way. And I think what I've noticed is how we sort of go from being incredibly literal teenagers to hopefully more, like, embodied and spiritual, if you will, like, adults. And I think for me, at this point, like, I kind of have like the, like, I've done the thesis on my- on my identities. And now I'm at the point where I'm actually getting to, like, apply all the things that I've taken all this time to, like, figure out and I think that also what they mean to me is like, not to be like cheesy, but like a journey that's like always going to shift and change. And like I'm always going to have more opportunities to learn from myself and learn from people who exist at my intersections or don't exist at my intersections in the exact same way. And so yeah, I feel like my identities are really a opportunity for exploration, questions, ideas, and that's kind of what I feel connected to nowadays.

[00:04:07] Chris Angel Murphy
You work in Hollywood, are there any movies or TV shows where you've seen yourself represented in any characters?

[00:04:16] Provvidenza Catalano
Hmm. I mean, [Provvidenza sing-songs] noooo?? [Chris Angel laughs]

[00:04:23] Provvidenza Catalano
Like, I have seen parts of myself represented, right? Like, I love Shrill and you know, it's not a perfect TV show, but I think some of the themes are what I actually see myself in, maybe than the like characters themselves completely. I mean, maybe an amalgam of characters, but I think just like the opportunity to sort of like see themes around, like, fatness and sexuality are something that I haven't seen represented, and so I feel seen in that. I think another option that like all fat people talk about is My Mad Fat Diary which came out in like, I want to say the mid-2000s- like mid-2010s maybe- maybe earlier than that? I can't quite remember at this point. But I think that for me, like, what I kind of never really see is the queer parts of myself and the trans parts of myself represented. And while I have, like, sort of a very like genderfull expression and way through moving through the world, my sort of like day-to-day drag is kind of that of a pretty classic like fat Butch, like, genderqueer person. And I think that that's a really, for Hollywood, it's a really alienating sort of kind of person to figure out how to display honestly.

[00:05:42] Provvidenza Catalano
I think the closest that we've gotten to that recently is Work in Progress with Abby McEnany. I think that might be her last name? But I think that like, in Work in Progress, that's probably like, you know, that's also like a different sort of generational experience than maybe I've had in relationship to my body and gender, but I think those little parts- a little pe- out- not that I want to be like, "I love scraps!" [Provvidenza laughs] But right now, [Provvidenza laughs] I do feel like, I'm kind of working more with like, scraps, you know? But I'm appreciative of the- of the things that do exist, because a lot of times the people who are behind them are people that I really like rock with, like Lindy West, and Samantha Irby, and Aidy Bryant. And at least know that if they're gonna be the ones talking about, like, some of the identities that I hold, they're gonna do like a pretty honest job of it, which I- which I'll take that, you know?

[00:06:36] Chris Angel Murphy
There was this post, maybe on Tumblr- somewhere, some social media platform, it was a long time ago. But this person was advocating for more [Chris Angel pauses] casual representation of trans people. Maybe putting on a binder for a date or something like that. Watching Sex Ed (Sex Education), of which I watched all of the third season pretty quickly, I saw a lot of people getting excited about a character named Cal. And I don't want to give anything away, but I do feel like they addressed it on the show AND it did also feel like they made Cal a teachable moment for people. So I guess when you were talking about not seeing yourself, especially in queer and trans characters and representation in general, what would be an ideal situation or character? What would you want to see?

[00:07:34] Provvidenza Catalano
You know, it's like- it's like two things, right? I think to the point of like, what you're saying of, like, it being casual, is that, like, I think that there is a way to just in the way that, like, there, like, for all people who occupy whatever things that they occupy, there's moments in which that's sort of like turned up or turned down in your day, right? Like, there's times in which, like, you interact with that and there's times where, like, you maybe, not that you don't, but it's not as, like, all the way turned on. And so I think like getting to have the opportunity to kind of see the moments in between, because more often than not, what we're seeing is like, a lot of times violence that is- that is perpetuated on to that intersection. And as somebody who is a writer, and, like, I co-write with a friend of mine who is also a queer person, you know, one of our big things is like, we want there to be stories about queer and trans people that are like joyful and aren't-and- and not to say that we don't, like, interact with violence, because we do, but I think that- that isn't like the validity of our experience isn't contingent on the amount of violence we interact with. And that oftentimes, is the ways in which we see characters that live at these intersections, you know? And that's a lot of times where we discover the emotional depth about them is like how they deal with these things or how they deal with the aftermath of them.

[00:09:10] Provvidenza Catalano
Where like, for me, I would love to see like what does not- do queer characters but, queer community look like in action? You know, like, I think that there's a lot of like, great storytelling that can exist in like, tons of genres that sort of like live in that. So I think it's like about that, you know, that? Like seeing all the shades of moments in between, realizing that there's times where it's sort of pumped up and other times it's like pumped down. Getting to like also say more insular jokes about our- our, [Provvidenza laughs] you know, queerness or our transness and like not writing to the cishet gaze, because I think a lot of times that's why it defaults to the didactic or the educational, like you said. And it then sometimes feels- it's funny, it's like I feel like they do that for people who don't occupy that identity. But then for the folks like us, where we're like, well, we're trans, like, we're nonbinary, like we're like that is- like I didn't have quite a, like, astute, specific observation about, like, my experience of transness, right? Like, I, like- it's just like a over time thing that we learn, you know? And it's not like, we're like, "when I learned I was gender nonbinary trans, [Chris Angel laughs] I realized I could be all the things that I want to be" and it's like always, like, this sort of canned sounding line. And I think that it's, like, that is written for cishet people, like, that is not written for us.

[00:10:42] Provvidenza Catalano
So I would love to see the shades of like, the ways that we make fun of ourselves, the ways that we exist with others. I think so much of being a queer person, especially, or any kind of person, I think, when you're hanging out with people with, like, who share identities with you is, is that like, we drag on each other. We make fun of each other. We mess around, you know? Like and I think to me, like, that's where a lot more honesty lies, is when we get to see like the actual community rather than sort of having like, this plucked individual who's in this, like, space in which they do operate as sort of an object for learning instead of like, a person, you know?

[00:11:20] Provvidenza Catalano
And I, speaking of Shrill, I was actually having a conversation with a friend the other day online and, you know, I was saying that I think a lot of times when we have characters who are marginalized in some way, especially in a lot of new shows that are coming out and how it sort of the mainstreaming served, like knowledge around like, feminism and anti-racism and stuff like that, is that like, a lot of times if like a marginalized character isn't a perfect represent- like what you perceive as a perfect representation of that experience, it's almost like a replication of like respectability politics, you know? And wanting to sort of, you're like, "Yeah, I'm so excited about this representation." But you're like, I want them to operate as this like perfect for, in Shrill as the example, like, as "a perfect fattie." And it's like, you do realize that kind of what you're asking is for this person to be like, the most acceptable version of this, which is not revolutionary in any stretch of the imagination, [Provvidenza laughs] you know?

[00:12:16] Provvidenza Catalano
So I think that what I want is to see the shades of our existence and the ways in which our relationship to our identities are oscillating and changing. I think that I want to see like more connection to community, because I think that that's where a lot of lack of like, honesty lies. And I think that, yeah, like, everything doesn't have to be an opportunity for learning. Like, sometimes we're just being people. So I think things like you said, like, casually seeing a binder put on. Like someone, like, discussing what their gender is for the day or for the moment. And, you know, I think that finding the nuances of those experiences, rather than kind of having them cater to people who, who that's not like, I'd rather write stories for the people that they're about, than the people who are quite literally voyeurs to the experience. So I think that a specific character I don't exactly know, but I think with those things all in the cauldron, that would produce a more interesting, complex, honest portrayal of any kind of identity.

[00:13:26] Chris Angel Murphy
Yeah and I think it's disappointing- I can't remember when this came out, but the movie around and about Stonewall, that was such a great opportunity to talk about our history, especially related to pride in the fight back against police brutality. They completely whitewashed history by having a cisgender white gay man as the leading character. I refused to watch the movie and [Chris Angel laughs] I told everyone why I thought it was so disrespectful and that doesn't even feel charged enough- the rage, [Chris Angel laughs] like, I feel the rage right now I'm tapping into it again.

[00:14:04] Chris Angel Murphy
Giving myself a moment to come back from the rage [Chris Angel laughs], gay bars were raided by police in the 60s because it was illegal to sell alcohol to gay people and to dress in clothing of a different gender than what was on your legal documentation. The community fought back against police brutality. Black and brown trans women were in the frontlines of that and so to have a white cisgender man, quote, unquote, "throw the first brick" in a movie that's meant to highlight our history, whitewashes and erases our history. This also wasn't the first fight back against police brutality in our history, but it is one of the most highlighted. So let's say their names, leaders like Marsha P. Johnson and Sylvia Rivera were doing the work.

[00:14:51] Chris Angel Murphy
I'm wondering, have you seen other media like that that's been harmful to our community?

[00:14:59] Provvidenza Catalano
I mean, I think that, you know, it's kind of that over and over again, right? And in a lot of times is, like I'm thinking about like films like The Danish Girl, you know? And opportunities where we could have cast like authentically. And there's really no reason to not cast authentically.

[00:15:18] Chris Angel Murphy
What's interesting is that Eddie Redmayne said in late November of 2021, "I made that film with the best intentions, but I think it was a mistake." And that, "no, I wouldn't take it on now." If you'd like to learn more about why it's problematic for cisgender people to take on trans roles, the documentary Disclosure on Netflix does a great job of addressing it and covers more nuance. However, it can be hard to watch. So please do what you need to do to take care of yourself before and after.

[00:15:56] Provvidenza Catalano
And so I think the thing is, is like, I would say that there's so much media that is like that. I would say that's the norm in a lot of ways, like, and not just for, you know, I think about how, like Nina Simone movie-that there was like a lot of conversations around like colorism and Stonewall where it's like, this is so deeply inaccurate, historically speaking, [Provvidenza laughs] you're just like, this is so far away from any actual reality that happened. I would say that it's sort of like the norm that a lot of our media is problematic or is incorrect, or is doing the thing that is acquiescing to patriarchy, and whiteness, and white supremacy. Because if that wasn't the case, we would see a diversity of, like, bodies and people and experiences on- on stage or on, you know, camera and TV shows and stuff. And so I feel like it's the norm, because that is- that's the culture, it's just about the sellability of things, you know?

[00:16:59] Provvidenza Catalano
And I mean, I actually worked in a studio for four years in the photo department as part of largely- more largely part of publicity. And I think that a lot of what I discovered in that environment, is that the kind of conversations that we're having even, like, community conversations on like social media, or whatever, the people at the very top literally have no idea. They're so deeply removed from that and a lot of times, even the people who are in like a PR department or in a publicity department, they might feel shreds of it, but they won't ever get the full picture. Because a lot of times, also the people in that job are not us, [Provvidenza laughs] you know? So it's like every level of those institutions really doesn't have representative examples of people who are actually genuinely able to raise that concern in a meeting.

[00:17:56] Provvidenza Catalano
And what I discovered in my time, at a major studio, was that, like, when they do see, like, "Oh, you're kind of different, like, you're part of the people," you know? "Diverse people are cool nowadays," what they then want to do is just extract you for ideas and perspectives and then not compensate you. And not give you that other job that's sort of giving you this ear to what people are talking about. And so I think the thing is, is it's like all the media is problematic, because at every level there is people who don't actually know what is going on. And I think that we're- we're sort of at a changing point sort of now, in which like, a lot of us had to make our scripts not as nuanced, or intricate, or layered, because they needed to fit within that system. I feel like the, the sea change is sort of happening now, in which people can and has maybe for the past, like maybe two or three years, is that people are getting to write things that are really, like, vibrant, revolutionary, specific. And those are the few things that sort of shine as new models of- of storytelling, you know?

[00:19:07] Provvidenza Catalano
And I think hopefully that shift is going to happen more, but yeah, I mean, it's-there's- I always joke that, like, there's this onion headline that was from years ago that will always make me laugh, which is like "feminist takes 30 minutes out of their day to watch media without critiquing it." [Both laugh] And- and I feel like that is like, very true. [Provvidenza laughs] You know, like, it is like, kind of, you know, hard when you're trying to you know, there is no perfect like piece of media. But I think that hopefully as we're sort of talking about the systems and institutions of how these stories get made, that that will offer more opportunities for us to have media that's complex and interesting and veers away from the problematic as norm.

[00:19:54] Chris Angel Murphy
Yeah because I know Friends was such a staple for so many people and there's some folks who love that show still. I never watched it as it was airing, but a friend I love was obsessed with it, so I gave it a chance. I tried to watch it like, I don't know, five to six years ago and I just couldn't do it. I had to rage quit. It didn't age well at all.

[00:20:19] Provvidenza Catalano
Mhm.

[00:20:19] Chris Angel Murphy
I think it highlights our culture and where it was at at that time, but between being so white, and fatphobic, and transphobic, and just everything- I had to tap out. Couldn't do it. Just couldn't do it. Sometimes things do get ruined for me. You know, once I've seen the light, I can't unlearn the thing I've just learned. And so now I am more hungry for things that are smart, more nuance. I can't just casually watch something. Well, like Nailed It, because that show makes me belly laugh [Chris Angel laughs], but there's a different palette I have now for for media in particular.

[00:21:01] Chris Angel Murphy
I'm wondering if you had $1 for every time you were tokenized in your life so far, how much money do you think you would have by now?

[00:21:12] Provvidenza Catalano
Oh, God. Oh, a lot. I mean, like, I um- [Provvidenza laughs]

[00:21:23] Chris Angel Murphy
[Both laugh] Are we crying because we don't have that money?

[00:21:25] Provvidenza Catalano
Yeah. Well, I mean, it's, it's a complicated question. Because like, as someone who is, you know, a performer, an actor, and artist in, like, DIY radical spaces, and also has sort of a, you know, traditional grind as a actor, it's like, I probably am at a higher ratio than [Provvidenza laughs] maybe most people are, you know? Because some things interact with my- with my body and like my job in a way that isn't the case for most people, unless they are like actors or dancers or, you know, whatever.

[00:22:01] Provvidenza Catalano
Something that I think has been particularly interesting in my life is that I kind of am aware of the character I was, like, turned into in order to protect myself and to survive. And that did look like being like the you know, happy-go-lucky, like fat, quirky, [Provvidenza sing-songs] queer best friend, you know?

[00:22:23] Chris Angel Murphy
Right.

[00:22:23] Provvidenza Catalano
And so I often find myself being seen in that way. And it's interesting as my expression, my, like, gender expression has sort of shifted, that's changed a little bit. Because I, like, have like a crew cut. [Provvidenza laughs] And like, just- I think that that like, there's something about that like, I'm air quoting, like "masculine embodiment," that work- is incongruent to that. And I think that also, too, as people are learning about trans people, they're-they're not also learning that the expression of transness, of nonbinaryness is incredibly expansive and lives very differently in every kind of body. And I think that for me, as someone who's sort of like, limp wristed, but looks the way that I look, there's just so much incongruence going on to our sort of cultural narratives around transness and gender. The fact that we don't see fat people as having gender, like, at all. So and then also being like a fat person who's very self possessed- that's, like, very confusing to people.

[00:23:35] Provvidenza Catalano
But interestingly, at the same time, as I sort of get closer to, like, what I want to, like, "look like" or whatever, or I'm just, like, closer to myself and what I've always wanted, I find myself getting called in for more in different roles. Which is so funny, you know? Versus when I was trying to sort of, like, assimilate in some sort of way. But that was also the time that I was being tokenized the most, too, you know? As sort of like, you know, the fat happy-go-lucky or the like, sad, fat depressed, you know, "girl," air quotes again, [Provvidenza laughs] you know?

[00:24:15] Provvidenza Catalano
And so it's- that's such an interesting thing that I've been like thinking about and sort of like wanting to offer people, especially other people who are actors and in arts professions, is like, the closer you get to yourself, the less that stuff should happen. Or at least, you have more of like the wherewithal or self possessiveness to realize that you don't need to do that in order to be accepted. Like, you can very much be exactly who you want to be and, like, you'll get there and you'll find the people who want to do that.

[00:24:47] Provvidenza Catalano
So I think for me, like, I still interact with tokenization, especially around my body and as an actor, because people are like, "what do we do with fat people?" Especially in [Provvidenza laughs] like, as a- when I audition for commercials, it's like really weird to be like, "I am being categorized as like a plus size woman," you know? And you're like this is quite literally for the point of selling something. So yeah, I would be very rich. But I would be maybe less rich now, which is nice. I'll accept that. [Provvidenza laughs] Because, yeah, in lieu of that I've gotten- in exchange, I've gotten a lot more of my own self to be represented and more opportunities for creativity and artistry.

[00:25:35] Chris Angel Murphy
You have such smart videos of when, I guess you go on a soapbox? [Both laugh] Talking about different things that you've experienced, for example, and one of the ones that stood out to me was when you talked about casting nonbinary folks. Can you share more about that video?

[00:25:56] Provvidenza Catalano
Unfortunately, given the fact that, like, kind of referencing what we were just talking about- about how there's sort of this, like limited imagination around how we see people and how we see stories, that even in moments like now, where people are like being like, "oh, yeah, there's a nonbinary character on that show," or "there's gonna be a nonbinary person," or whatever, we're already seeing patterns emerge, in which we are seeing how we in Hollywood, imagine a nonbinary person. And oftentimes, that is like, white sort of, like, masculine or androgynous in some sort of way. And thin and able bodied. And I think that, you know, that is already such a harmful, and not to say that those people don't exist, they certainly do, you know? But the fact that that's already emerging as like, what a nonbinary person is, is troublesome. Because then we're just creating imagery around nonbinaryness that people are going to want to assimilate into, you know? They're gonna, they're gonna say that, "well, my expression of nonbinaryness is only acceptable if I fall into this."

[00:27:15] Provvidenza Catalano
So there's a deep connection between expressions of transness or nonbinarymess in the body. So, right? So we already have like a massive amount of fatphobia that's coming in. We are also, like, not acknowledging that like nonbinary people can be any kind of person in any kind of body. And what we're a lot of times seeing is is that we only see nonbinaryness sort of cast onto, oftentimes, people who were assigned nonconsensually, [Provvidenza laughs] female at birth, right? And so that is then creating substantial erasure of people who occupy different bodies, because we're just already starting to perpetuate this narrative and people are already for having a symbolism to assimilate into.

[00:28:01] Provvidenza Catalano
So I think that that's part of it. And then when I think the other big part, of which is what inspired that video that you're talking about, is that, you know, I'm starting to get to a point where I'm invited to auditions that are for nonbinary people, that are for trans people. There's this desire, again, to limit which is where they'll say, like, this- I hate this word, but I'm gonna say it for the sake of being brief is like, they'll say, like "AFAB." You know, like, they'll say that in the casting notice.

[00:28:35] Chris Angel Murphy
AFAB assigned female at birth, and AMAB assigned male at birth, have recently gotten growing criticism within the LGBTQ+ community. Part of it is that anatomy does not determine gender. There's also key nuance missing of someone's intersecting identities and lived experiences that are key to note in how we are raised or socialized. So, are we retiring those phrases? Sometimes in the case of someone who is trans like me, it may be helpful language. But, it may be better to say I was socialized as a girl or woman in my youth, even though that's not how I identify. That may give you a richer context. We'll see what happens with this. What's most important is that people have the language that they need to feel represented and have the opportunity to express themselves authentically.

[00:29:31] Provvidenza Catalano
And I'm just like, "guys, if you're asking for a nonbinary person, you can't say that." Because first of all, what does that have to- like, I'll use me as an example like, what does that have to do with my experience, right? Like, what like- like, I've never been like, "You know what I am? I am a female, woman, lady, girl who turned into a nonbinary-" like, it's like, that's not what happened, you know? You know, like, there is nothing significant about that part of my life in the way that they're utilizing it. Because what they're really asking for is a person who they, I mean, I always make the joke of "unconventional woman" is like, what they're really looking for.

[00:30:18] Provvidenza Catalano
Where a lot of times with they're writing is nonbinary, but now they're, it's more like, are you a- like, I see like, they think it's either two things. It's like you're either an "unconventional woman" or like a "femme man," and that's what is like people's conception of, like, what it is to be nonbinary. Where it's like, that is not the case. So I think it's that there's just this tendency to sort of like limit it, create specific qualifications of how people need to, like, "become nonbinary," or whatever. And it's just so alienating on a million different levels.

[00:30:57] Provvidenza Catalano
If your desire is to either have a nonbinary person where part of their story is about being nonbinary or it's not, the most honest thing you can do is open this up to as many nonbinary people as possible. Because you're- you're going to find truth and honesty there. You're going to be surprised. You're going to be like, "Oh, that's like, so interesting." And then also, people are going to discover, like, "oh, yeah, nonbinary people look a lot of different ways," you know? So I think that there just needs to be a understanding that like, nonbinaryness and transness are like limitless and can have a really big imagination. And we shouldn't feel so compelled to limit that imagination, especially because we're- we just started, you know? Like, [Provvidenza laughs] we just started. And I think that that's like, we got to, like, knock it in its tracks, like now, you know? Because it's our- it's like, it's so obvious how it's emerging, you know?

[00:31:56] Provvidenza Catalano
And I just feel like that, you know, that hurts artists. That hurts trans people. That hurts nonbinary people. And it- it then just becomes like representation for the sake of representation, but not in anything that's like, honest and loving, and like heart-centered. And that's what I, like, want to see when I see representations of people that are traversing the gender, universe, you know, with me. So I think it's just about, yeah, breaking that open. And- and- and not being like, "Oh, well, they do have a nonbinary person, that's cool." Or "they do have a trans person," but it's like, what is the story about, like, was that casting notice fucked? Like, what's the story? Like, are they just being used as a sort of educational pawn?

[00:32:42] Chris Angel Murphy
Totally and in 2017, you did an interview with Pride.com.

[00:32:46] Provvidenza Catalano
Mhm.

[00:32:47] Chris Angel Murphy
And it was called Dating When You're Queer & Fat Is Like Navigating Through a Minefield.

[00:32:52] Provvidenza Catalano
Mhm.

[00:32:54] Chris Angel Murphy
2017 isn't that long ago. We're recording this in 2021 and I'm wondering, has that gotten any better? Or has anything changed?

[00:33:03] Provvidenza Catalano
Mmm. Oh, my God, well, I've gotten a better haircut since that video. [Chris Angel laughs] First of all, but I always I'm, like, oh the terrible thing about being trans is that sometimes you can't see anything you've done [Provvidenza laughs] that was six months ago, [Provvidenza laughs] because you're gonna get weird about it or dysphoric. But no. I mean, yes and no, right?

[00:33:24] Provvidenza Catalano
Like, I mean, I- I think that on a personal level, I'm obviously having a deeper depth of knowledge around why desire and fatphobia, and transness, queerness all interact with each other, right? So I think in that way, I've just sort of, you know, as I've continued sort of my unraveling around these ideas and themes, I have a little bit more kindness for myself. Because and for-for people who are, you know, similarly, interacting with the world in that way.

[00:34:02] Provvidenza Catalano
It's funny that you bring that up, because in what I've sort of been discovering, and sort of thinking about a lot lately, is about how so much of my relationship to sexuality, and I'm saying this in like the broadest of terms, has been impacted by fatphobia, and queerphobia, and transphobia, and butchphobia, you know? Something that I was maybe not thinking about in the same way that I'm thinking about it now, is the ways in which my desire is considered perverse and disgusting. And I kind of, like, it was the sort of lightbulb moment that I feel like I've been having over the past couple of years and being like, the only times where I've seen sort of fat sexuality, and it's always heterosexual, is like in a couple of different sort of characters, right? Which is usually like the sort of over-the-top oversexualized fat person and the- the joke is, isn't it so gross that they think that they can be that way? [Provvidenza laughs]

[00:35:05] Provvidenza Catalano
And- and also just sort of the like, "ugh, like, that is literally disgusting." Or conversely the sort of like desexualized, like, "we would never even know that they have a body, they're so removed from any physicalness of them," right? Because the- they're just invisible in a lot of ways. What I've discovered is how much that messaging has impacted me more than I kind of ever thought and that it lives in me very much. And I've really been trying to unpack that both as like an individual within myself and, like, trying to challenge myself to sort of push against the-the ways that I've been taught to not express myself, to limit myself, to edit myself. Also trying to be like a little bit freer in kind of, like, every way because I realize that sexuality is something that goes beyond just like dating and flirting and whatever, it's like our everyday life, right?

[00:36:02] Provvidenza Catalano
Now, if I'm- like, say I was in an instance, where I'm like, "I think this person's flirting with me," I believe it or at least I try to believe it. Because the reason I don't believe it isn't because I don't think I'm like hot and cool and fun and smart. The reason I don't believe it is because fatphobia, and transphobia, and homophobia exists. [Provvidenza laughs] Like, right, you know? And I believe it and I try and lean into it to the best of my ability. And if I- when I don't, which is often still, I do have a self-awareness of the wall building up inside of me. Something about that self-awareness is making me be like, "Okay, why is this wall coming up? Is it because I'm feeling..?" You know, "am I shifting myself because of the messaging of the world that I live in, so much so that, like, I can't take this moment as just, like, a human moment in time in which I'm just gonna, like, have fun and connect with this person?" I'm just trying to break down that wall more and more and try to live in my body more and more. And I think connecting to kind of what we were talking about before is that like- is about how like, the closer I've gotten to myself, the closer that I have felt like sexy, or hot, or like desirable because I'm no longer sort of, like, giving into expectation- cultural expectation.

[00:37:25] Provvidenza Catalano
That is just like, continuing to be the case for me, which is really great. The execution is something I'm still working on, [Provvidenza laughs] you know, of course. But, I think the thing is, is is that with fat folks, we're just really taught that- and this is why I say that I believe everybody has a stake in fatphobia, is because I think that a lot of the fatphobia is about want and desire. Not just sexually, you know, in every way. And I think that if we allowed ourselves sort of the freedom of that, we would release ourselves from sort of these like puritanical chains that we've all been sort of pushed to to like limit ourselves, to imagine ourselves in small ways, to not believe that we're worthy of, like, love, or sexuality, or connection.

[00:38:11] Provvidenza Catalano
On a cultural level, I think that I don't want to say a mainstreaming- I think that that's maybe too strong of a word. But I do feel like there are a lot more people, especially fat folks, that are talking about fat liberation in a big way. And so I think that hopefully, as we're starting to have more genuine conversations about fat liberation versus like, you know, glitter, colorful body positivity, we'll hopefully be getting into these sorts of conversations, which- that's why I use a lot of these platforms for. Like, what's been so exciting about utilizing TikTok is like being able to be like, we're not doing the 101 anymore. We're like really talking about, like, revolutionary mindsets. And we're talking about how they interact with our day-to-day, because I think a lot of times when people get messed up about, especially about talking about fat liberation, is is that like, they always want to make it a individualized issue and not a systemic issue. And so I think that for me, a lot of what I like to talk about is the human experience of experiencing fatphobia and how that interacts with every part of my life.

[00:39:27] Provvidenza Catalano
And some people might just be like, "Oh, it's just dating, like, whatever, like fuck those people." And it's like, "guys, like, we have a whole set of rules in our head that has been dictated by white supremacy and by desirability politics. And, like, it's not just fatphobia that's interacting with our desire. It's racism. It's you know, it's queerphobia. It's ableism. It's, you know, colorism. It's like it's all of these things. So it's like, what? Like, this is part of the conversation. Like, our humanity is part of the conversation because you're replicating systemic harm in this connection. And I am in the job of, like, protecting myself and surviving. So, it actually is important for me to communicate how this lives in something that should be playful and fun, like dating and flirting and getting to know people, and how it is limiting our ability to do that. You know, so, has it changed? No. Has… for me personally a little bit, because I'm coming into this knowledge. But I think on a cultural level, I think we have a lot of work to do. And I think the big part is the reframing of understanding fatphobia as a systemic harm and not as just like someone calling you "fat" or not like wanting to date you because you're fat, because that's what people think it's about, you know?

[00:40:51] Chris Angel Murphy
Yeah. And you're actually published in a book called Fat and Queer. It's an anthology of queer and trans bodies and lives. Your piece kicks off the book. I'm curious about the experience and if you wrote it specific to that project.

[00:41:11] Provvidenza Catalano
So that piece that is in that book was actually part of a larger piece that I wrote. I'm a deadline queen, like, a lot of my writing comes out of the fact that I, like, find something to submit to, and then I- or perform at, and then I write to the moment [Provvidenza laughs] because that's just how my mind works. I had seen that this book was coming out, and I was like, "Okay, I want to submit to this." I wrote that, not necessarily for the book, but using the deadline of the book to write it. The editors got back to me- I-and they ended up being like, "hey, we'd like to take your piece, but we would just like to take this portion of it, as we feel like it can kind of work as this incantation to the book and sort of what the books about," like, it inspired an idea around the book and the themes of the book.

[00:41:58] Provvidenza Catalano
So like, that's actually really cool and really special when I sort of like detached my, like, artist ego moment of, like, "Why wouldn't they just take the whole piece?!" You know? And- and now too, like, I'm, I'm doing like a video piece around the portion that wasn't used. So, it also ended up oppor- offering an opportunity to create another new piece of work, because it wasn't completely put into the book. So, and I'm really glad I took it because I- I don't know, you know, it's, it's rough, like being a creative type in the world. And- and I don't think that there's anything wrong about having experiences in which your, like, commitment to the work that you're doing is validated, you know? And that has definitely been a part of it. And I think like, the love that I've just gotten from like a lot of friends and it, you know, has validated my commitment to like my work around these themes. And it also is like really exciting to be in a book with people who, like, I have learned from, you know? Who I look up to, which is pretty, you know, when you're at it for a long time, you don't- you don't know if that's ever going to happen, you know? And so to have my name, like, listed with all these other, you know, educators, and writers, and artists. First of all, it's validating because it's like, we're here, like, we're talking about these ideas in this intersection, you know? And to be named along with them is really cool. So yeah, that's kind of how that came together.

[00:43:30] Chris Angel Murphy
Is there a time you felt you could have been a better ally? And what do you do differently now?

[00:43:37] Provvidenza Catalano
Something that is a part of the process of, like, learning how to be an active ally, is taking the charge, like, the hotness, out of the mistake. I think that a lot of times, we're like, "oh my god, like, I can't believe I did that, like I'm a terrible person," or whatever. It really actually has like nothing to do with you as like a person in- in some ways, like, when you get that like red-in-the-face feeling? If you just, like, ground yourself for a second and kind of realize, like, we have been indoctrinated into a culture that has made us enforce systemic harm in both overt and covert ways. And it is not a personal failure that you are doing these things. It happens, you know? And as long as we are trying to be as present to that, like, moment and build relationships through that, it's like all good, [Provvidenza laughs] you know?

[00:44:33] Provvidenza Catalano
And-and so I think that that's the thing is is, like, probably moments that I wish that I would have done something better is that I centered myself basically instead of centering what happened, like, I centered my feelings and emotions and in a way that was not helpful to the situation, you know? Like, what I can probably [Provvidenza laughs] confidently say I did is is that like I made a moment about me that was not about me. Now, what I realize is that, like, the reason that happens is because of like, the hotness that comes out of sort of the initial moment of recognizing that you've messed up. And that you can, like, get to the other side of that and it isn't a reflection of you or your, like, personhood. Like, there's definitely been insistence where I've, like, centered myself and my emotional experience while trying to sort of like, fix the moment, but not do it in a way that was really committed to the person who experienced the thing that I did.

[00:45:35] Chris Angel Murphy
As I was researching more about you for the interview, I noticed you have been living with MS. One of my previous social work jobs was supporting people impacted by MS. And by the luck of the draw, I would get folks who were diagnosed with MS and also part of the LGBTQ+ community. There were a lot of interesting dynamics there. I could tell that they were nervous about sharing with me that they're also LGBTQ+ and I started to see the duality of "coming out" for both. Coming out as part of the LGBTQ+ community and coming out as living with MS. I'm wondering if this resonates for you at all? What your experience has been? And if you feel like your intersecting identities that we've discussed so far have served as barriers to getting the care that you deserve and need?

[00:46:35] Provvidenza Catalano
Mhm. Yeah, I mean, I think that there- there's definitely, like, an intersection between those things, for sure. I mean, I think that a journey that I'm definitely on is my unlearning of ableism, which was kind of shocked into me from my MS diagnosis. I can be pretty forthcoming in saying that I didn't think- I knew ableism exists. And I knew what would be instances of ableism. But I never really thought of like the personal experience of ableism until I was the one who was met with it, you know?

[00:47:07] Provvidenza Catalano
And I think that what happens is that when you are disabled, the amount of suggestion of burden that disabled people create is a very pervasive force. And I think that this is two things- this is going to get dark for a second. Culturally, we're like, kind of pro-eugenics [Provvidenza laughs] in a lot of ways. And that interacts with a lot of my ideas around like fatness and fat bodies, too, is that- and wellness culture- is is that like, there are a lot of people who they so genuinely don't think of disabled people and don't care about disabled people. And kind of do think, like, we just we need a world where everybody's like, healthy and perfect and that's the world that we should live in. And that is like actually something that is sort of, in a lot of ways, that we move through the world. So I think that there's that sense of burden that happens.

[00:48:05] Provvidenza Catalano
And then we have sort of a weird culture in relationship to how we talk about, like, the pain that we're experiencing. And I think that we can all feel this, whether we're disabled or not, is that, like, we've kind of been taught to sort of like perform pain so that people will care about us. Instead of us just being like, "Oh, you're having a rough day, like, how can I support you?" [Provvidenza laughs] You know? Like, we haven't been engineered to sort of go that care route. Being forced into sort of a performance of pain as a way to validate what your experiences is, like, incredibly fucked. And then that interacting with the fact that you are considered, like, a burden is very confusing. You're like, "well, what direction can I move from with this?" And as someone whose MS manifests as like, a sort of daily interaction with, like, pain, but then also is not totally visible a lot of the time, like, I don't currently have, like, visible disabilities. So people are also unsure because they're like, "You seem fine." And I'm like, "my insides aren't," [Provvidenza laughs] you know?

[00:49:18] Provvidenza Catalano
But and so I think that it meets up with a lot of different things, right? Is that like, when you're trying to take care of yourself and go to the doctor, you're really just trying to get care from the person that is supposed to give you care. But also there's a culture around healthcare, and there are different kinds of doctors, and there's different kinds of ways that people think and judge. And medicalized, you know, fatphobia, queerphobia, raise-you know, all those things live there. So I think a lot of times you're trying to tell somebody these really intimate and vulnerable things, but you also have somewhat of a barrier up. Because a lot- like, I totally empathize with, like, not coming out in, like, healthcare settings, you know? Or not correcting people's pronouns or whatever, because I'm just like, you know, in this moment? This is not what I can center on, like, and I hate that. But I'm just like, I just need to put my other- the other parts of me aside, so I can have this experience. And that, like, I don't need to have like the emotional fallout of being like, "Well, that sucked," because like, they kept asking me about like my boyfriend, or if I had like, a person at home to care for me, or if I like- my brain- I'm trying to think of all the things that like, weird things that I've had said to me, you know?

[00:50:43] Provvidenza Catalano
But just yeah, like that centering of like super hetero care models and things like that. And I think that, um, it sucks in an environment in which like, you want to really just like, let yourself loose and be able to talk about how you're interacting with pain, and how you're interacting with disability, and having to eliminate parts of yourself is just never going to feel good, because it does interact with how our health manifests. The stressors of moving through the world and whatever way you move through the world is part of your healthcare. You know, and it feels frustrating to not be able to sometimes speak to that because, you're like, okay, in the rest of the world, I'm, you know, being seen as sort of a burden and challenging. And we don't have a lot of like social conditioning around, like how to interact with people who are disabled or offering that they're experiencing, like, difficulties.

[00:51:39] Provvidenza Catalano
So that then in turn, institutionally, makes it difficult to ask for, like, accessibility, you know, accommodations, in, you know, queer spaces. You know, a lot of times we are doing things that are DIY or we are doing things that are maybe, like, not funded. And that shouldn't be an excuse for not creating spaces in which, like, are- that are accessible to other people, right? So a lot of times, there's barriers to actually being in space with other queer people because of those things, right? Which is all different kinds of disabilities, right?

[00:52:14] Provvidenza Catalano
And I think that where the queer community has a leg up is, is that we do have a history of revolutionary care models, right? And what it looks like for community to take care of each other. We do have a little bit of that ability to shift- to shift the ways in which we take care of each other. But I think that what it requires is a world that doesn't see disabled people as a burden, doesn't moralize health, and think that there's, like, a way to "fix you." And our bodies, like our physical bodies, are not detached from, like our experience of how we move through the world in every way. So yeah, I mean, I definitely feel like there's- all of these things are layered, they all connect to each other. I don't think that there's ever been a genuine instance in my life in the past however many years while I've been navigating disability that doesn't interact with the other parts of myself, you know?

[00:53:14] Chris Angel Murphy
What's one allyship tip you'd like for everyone listening to consider?

[00:53:18] Provvidenza Catalano
You have to have a stake in what you're doing. Really identify who you are in the story of this experience. What I add on top of that, is that I think there's this tendency that when you start discovering and learning about oppression, is that you're, like, "I need to fix everything! I need to like change everything RIGHT NOW!" You don't actually. What you need to do is you need to discover your stake in what it is to change the world and- and get rid of this thing. And find a really tangible way to work at it. Do things locally, do things that are immediate to you, that are connected to your close community, because that is where you will genuinely learn about connection, community, what people really need. You won't make them just this opportunity for education. You won't individualize the experience, like I talked about, and center yourself in an instance in which you are trying to, like, not perpetuate more harm, right?

[00:54:26] Provvidenza Catalano
Realize that you have skill sets within you that are who you are as a person. Find the thing that you feel is the thing that you offer or the things that you offer and that is your best way to do great work and connect with others. Of course, all of these fights are intertwined. Once you find out what is, like, where is your stake? What is the thing that you feel hot in the heart about and what kind of world can you make while participating in this in your community, you will feel so much more connected to like the world, to the struggle, and to the love that can exist, and the connection that can exist when we commit to each other. So, I feel like all those things sort of work together to create a actionable ally, which is what we want to be.

[00:55:27] Chris Angel Murphy
I'm so grateful to my guest for their vulnerability in this episode and everything that we covered. Let's dive into the self-reflection questions, shall we?

Have you ever hid parts of yourself from health professionals because you feared stigma or mistreatment?
Do you know what's going on in your local community?
Are you involved in your local community?
Do you judge people who park in handicap spots but seem to walk just fine?
Do you judge people who stand up from their wheelchair and assume they must not need it?
Do you have a stake in your active allyship?
How do you react when you make a mistake? Do you center yourself?
Do any of your words or actions contribute to fatphobia?
Do you believe fat people are lazy and unmotivated?

[00:56:49] Chris Angel Murphy
Visit AllyshipIsAVerb.com for any resources and a full transcript of the episode. And remember, sometimes allyship means knowing your stake.