[00:00:16] Chris Angel Murphy

Welcome to Allyship is a Verb, the LGBTQ+ podcast that explores and humanizes practicing allyship for the LGBTQ+ community and beyond. I'm the host, Chris Angel and my pronouns are they/them. Each episode will either be a quick tip to practice ally ship or a longer episode to pass the mic to someone else to help keep the conversation intersectional. So this time, let's pass the mic.

[00:00:49] Shane Whalley

Hey, folks, I'm Shane Whalley and my pronouns are ze, hir, and hirs.

[00:00:53] Chris Angel Murphy

Shane and I met back in 2009 at the campus pride LGBTQ summer Leadership Academy. Campus Pride is a national nonprofit organization based in North Carolina for student leaders and campus groups working to create a safer college environment for LGBTQ students. Ze was one of the facilitators and since I was considering a career in social work, Shane became a role model for me. We've kept in touch all of these years, and I'm honored to be passing the mic to hir today. Shane is a social justice educator, facilitator, and storyteller. Ze created Daring Dialogues Consulting and is based in Austin, Texas. Hir experience spans over 20 years educating on topics such as LGBTQIA community, dismantling white supremacy culture, and cultural humility. Shane graduated from the School of Social Work at the University of Texas at Austin and has been teaching there for 18 years this month. Ze was also the education coordinator for the Gender and Sexuality Center on campus, and even founded the LGBT student group for the School of Social Work Program. Shane has attended numerous conferences and has such a rich history both personally and professionally.

On this episode, we talk about topics such as changing terminology and some of that history, the pronoun wars, is it okay for allies to use the term queer, and more.

Shane, you identify as genderqueer, queer, an elder, and white. Can you share what those identities mean to you?

[00:02:33] Shane Whalley

Yeah, I'm going to start with white first, because White is what is seen first, I think most of the time when I walk into a space, right? And I am somebody who often talks about whiteness and people are often surprised by that, right? So I think I have white skin, I'm slightly tanner now because it's summer, but still very white. And for me, that means I come from British Danish descent, that I get to navigate the world without having to think about a bunch of stuff. That I get a bunch of goodies, just because of the color of my skin and that it is on me to help dismantle the system that allows all of that to happen. I identify as queer in terms of my sexual orientation and that language has changed over time, right? So I came out as and identifying as a lesbian in 19, around 1984. And as my gender identity became clear to me, and my political sassiness opened up, I moved and started identifying as queer both to take my gender identity out of my terminology around my sexual orientation. And I've been identifying as queer since the early 2000s. So as an earlier adopter, and at that time, I think identifying as queer also did hold political significance, right? So I use that term with pride for those reasons. And realize that not everybody in the community is still an adopter. That term is still loaded for a lot of people. I, I came out around my gender identity in 1994, when we didn't have any of this language, right? So I talked about being a person who lived in the gender gray. And then when I first turned the heard the term genderqueer again, probably early 2000s, I was like, "Yes, there's a term" because running around saying you live in the gender gray is awkward. [Chris Angel laughs] Is that a green gray or blue gray, like what kind of gray is that? So I identified as genderqueer. And I think as the language is ever evolving and non-binary, is being used more , I often now we'll say that I identify as genderqueer and non binary. And I still identify, right, like, when I was coming out, people who-who are not on a path to transition, were fighting hard to be accepted by the transgender community, right, and to be seen as trans enough. Now we're in this time where the non-binary community is, like, I hear a lot of people say, "but I'm not trans". And I'm like, I spent the first like 15 years in this identity fighting to be part of the community, and now we're fighting not to be part of the community. [Shane laughs] So I also, I think, because of that historical context, identify lightly as trans just because I still kind of think of it as an umbrella for everybody who doesn't identify with what's on their birth certificate.

[00:05:49] Chris Angel Murphy

And what does elder mean to you?

[00:05:52] Shane Whalley

So I think, often in the trans community, we have multiple years, right? [Shane laughs] Like, we have our birth years, and then we have our trans years, right? So in my birth years, I'm 60. I turned 60 in April. I'm almost an elder by any definition, right? And then I came out around my gender identity, I think, if I do the math right, is 27 years ago. And so I think of myself very much as an out it for almost 37 years around my sexual orientation. So I've been in this community a long time. And I've always been, around my gender identity, I've always been out. And I've always been outspoken, and I've always been giving, like classroom talks. And so and now, you know, kind of different kinds of work and talks, but in 1995, to be talking about the difference between sex, gender identity, and gender expression wasn't something a lot of people were doing. So I feel like I've educated a lot of people and I've held space. I had the good fortune to meet Leslie Feinberg. And Leslie Feinberg was a mirror for me on what was possible. And I've lived my life as a mirror for other people to know what is possible. So that's kind of where that elder status comes from me. I hold a lot- I held- I have lived a lot of the history [Shane laughs].

[00:07:18] Chris Angel Murphy

Yeah, something that's been interesting about the LGBTQ+ community, and what was a rather rude awakening for myself was learning that we don't all agree on everything. Surprise, surprise. [Shane laughs] And so to your point, you were speaking to how you have embraced the term queer, especially for yourself and you explained why I'm wondering, it's not strictly older generations who it leaves a bad taste in their mouth, so to speak, right? There's younger people, such as myself, who've decided to reclaim it, but you know, we can still be pretty divided. And there's still a lot of discourse around it. I'm wondering, what helps you to reclaim it and, and embrace that as an identity?

[00:08:04] Shane Whalley

I don't ever think of it as being as struggle maybe. Right. Like, I think it was a pretty easy adoption for me. And then I think I read, I was kind of reading LGBTQ history that we don't get in, in textbooks, right, that I didn't learn in school. And I was reading a book where it actually talked about in the 1920s, that queer was used as a term of endearment, especially within gay men in kind of metropolitan areas. And so, thus the reclaiming, right, so it got stolen from us, right. And then if you think about in the 80s, that Queer Nation, right, was one of the activist organizations around HIV and AIDS. I think as I learned more of that history, it resonates with me kind of deeply in my bones. And so yeah, it- that one wasn't a hard one.

[00:09:00] Chris Angel Murphy

For those who are outside of the LGBTQ+ community practicing ally ship. Do you feel that there are times it's acceptable or okay for them to use the term queer? Like, is it okay for them to say Queer Community broadly? Or do you think that's something that only folks within the LGBTQ+ community should use?

[00:09:25] Shane Whalley

I think that if people are truly practicing allyship, and maybe they know some of the history, or they know that if somebody were to question them on why they're using it, that they can give a strong and informed answer, then I'm cool with straight people using it, right? I think it's- it should always be said with a smile, right? It should never be hollered out of a car or truck window. If it is said with love and is said with an awareness of the politics behind it AND that if you are a straight ally, and you use it, and somebody within the LGBTQIA+ communities were to question you on it, that you're able to hear and have that conversation. For me for allyship, and I know we're going to head in this direction, but for me, one of the key core components is, is that if you are claiming to be an ally, or to be in allyship, that you have to be able to stay in hard conversation with members of the community if you're doing things that aren't right, or that people have questions about.

[00:10:33] Chris Angel Murphy

Totally. And you and I, we're both from Social Work backgrounds, that's one of the ways that we bond and we both provide different types of training offerings. Something that's been a hot buzzword or phrase over the years has been this idea of teaching LGBTQ+ or LGBTQIA cultural competency. And on your website daringdialogues.com, you mention beyond cultural competency: moving towards cultural humility and responsiveness. What are the differences? And why is that the ideal over cultural competency?

[00:11:14] Shane Whalley

For me, cultural competency has, like there's an assumed endpoint, or there's an assumed checklist, right? Like, "oh, I went to that, I went to that training that Chris Angel did on how to serve trans people well, and I know that 10 top things I'm supposed to do, I am now culturally competent", right? And in that very moment, when we claim competency, we get our card revoked. [Shane laughs] Once we say we are competent, we are no longer, right? So there's that. Cultural competency also, I think, comes out of a kind of a medical model, right, but it's not a super- for me, it's not a very humanized or social justice model. Now, it's interesting cultural humility. I wish I could say that I coined that, but I did not. [Chris Angel laughs] It also has come out of the medical community, I think as they are kind of learning and in humanizing medicine. So for me, cultural humility means are not going to know, it means that I am going to make mistakes. And for me, the responsiveness piece is about recovery, right? Like I build trust with people when they make mistakes, and will recover with me, while the people I don't build trust with are the people who make mistakes, and then deny, run away, [Shane laughs] blame it on me, right? Like, all of those pieces. And so for me, kind of the skills of, of humility, and responsiveness are always having a learner's mind and then doing the work of repair.

[00:12:54] Chris Angel Murphy

Absolutely. And, to your point, part of allyship is recognizing that we make mistakes and that can be quite humbling. So, with that in mind, is there a time that you wished you had done a better job of practicing allyship? And what would you do differently now?

[00:13:16] Shane Whalley

You know, I think it's interesting, too. I always tell this story- when I tell this story, I think it still comes with a fair amount of shame for me, even though it was long, long ago. So before I realized my gender identity, I lived in Ithaca, New York. And I was on the gay and lesbian- and that's what it was called- The Gay and Lesbian Taskforce cause this was in 1992. And it was just when the conversations were coming around about adding trans to the list, right? And the board brought it before a vote. And I voted no! I voted that it shouldn't be added. Right?

[00:14:02] Chris Angel Murphy

Hmm.

[00:14:03] Shane Whalley

And now it is who I am. And if 2021 me, actually probably 1998 me would have given 1992 to me quite a scolding. But I didn't know right? Like I didn't have good information. I hadn't- the trans people that I knew, didn't have the support they needed. And so they weren't their best people, in some ways. And and so I've had to kind of work on how to think about that decision, right, and how to kind of grant myself some grace and forgiveness. And I think the thing that's really done for me, is be able to grant grace and forgiveness to others who just don't know. You don't know how to navigate things that you don't have information about. And so I try to also- I think that cultural humility piece works both ways, right? That I also have to grant the grace that I would like to receive. I think the other thing is when we talk about the LGBTQIA, evergrowing alphabet, and I often say communities because right, we're not one big community that gets together on Fridays to plan the revolution. If we heard we would have had real peace by now, right? [Chris Angel laughs] Um, I think allyship also happens within communities, right, like gay and lesbian folks need to be allies to trans and non-binary, folks. And let's talk about biphobia and panphobia, right? So I think, even within, within communities, within communities of color, like within all communities, we have to have allyship within and like without, and I don't think we talk about that enough, I think we think if we have an identity, then we're good to go within our own community. And, and I've seen that play out badly a lot over the years.

[00:15:57] Chris Angel Murphy

I agree, I think, as part of this podcast, is highlighting that, that not only are we asking that the general public, those who are cisgender, heterosexual, etc. You know, not only here are some like concrete ways you can practice allyship toward us, but here's also ways we can be better and kinder to each other as well.

Speaking of initialisms, and acronyms, so you and I use a little bit of a different acronym, well, initialism. I, I've been getting them confused lately. So I kind of recently learned -that blew my mind- that LGBTQ+ is an initialism. And then on the flip side, you have QUILTBAG, and SOGIE those are acronyms.

[00:16:47] Shane Whalley

Okay.

[00:16:47] Chris Angel Murphy

So because you can say them as a word, right? So you've, I mean, I've certainly watched this sort of unfold over the years. I do remember in Los Angeles, having the Gay and Lesbian Center, right, and then it was a big deal when it turned into the LGBT Center. I also remember when we used to use GLBT.

[00:17:12] Shane Whalley

Correct.

[00:17:13] Chris Angel Murphy

And I'm wondering, as you've seen all of these shifts, over the years, I've sort of flirted with the idea that I think GLBT to LGBT was to acknowledge feminism.

[00:17:23] Shane Whalley

Correct.

[00:17:23] Chris Angel Murphy

And why are we always putting men in the front? You know, I never officially saw that anywhere. But it was just something that, you know, in community with folks discussing it- it was this idea. And so, do you think we'll ever agree on either an acronym or an initialism, as we try to help, you know, explain all of the different identities of the alphabet soup community?

[00:17:49] Shane Whalley

I- I don't. And, and this is, I think people often ask right, in workshops or trainings, conversations, like, Why do you keep building all of this language? [Shane laughs] Just stop, right? And I'm like, okay, I don't think we like to be boxed into labels. And I think we love to have language so we can speak about our experience. And I think we have infinite experiences. So we're going to build infinite language. So I, because I think the first time- I was giving a- was actually giving a workshop. And somebody when I worked at UT, and a student said, Shane, what do you think about the word demisexual? And I said, Tell me what it means. And I will tell you what, I think. I hadn't heard it yet. Right? And so when I heard the definition, I was like, "Oh, my gosh, that is the experience of a lot of people," that there are a lot of people who aren't interested in having sex with someone until they have a deep romantic connection. Like I think that, for a lot of us, it's part of our human experience. So it's like, does it need a word? Does it need a word? And I'm like, obviously, it does need a word, right? And so now we have a shorthand for that experience. And so I think, have I ever seen an alphabet with a D in it? I have not, right? Um, so and I have real mixed emotions about adding the + as well, because it means I'm too lazy to add you on. So, I'm just going to put a plus at the end. And yet there is power in saying like, this list is not exhaustive. I start hearing words like Sexual and Gender Minorities. And I'm like, "well, I don't know how I feel about that," or sexual and gender diverse--- com- rightlike there's all of this work. So, now I think we're trying to find phrases that encapsulate, right?

[00:19:58] Chris Angel Murphy

Let's take a quick moment to expand for those of you who are new to all of this. Some of these terms come from academia or medical communities and aren't empowering; they're not coming from the community. That includes when we use terms like minority in Gender and Sexuality Minorities, as an example. Hopefully, for any of you out there who are wondering why the initialisms and acronyms keep evolving, that's why. We're attempting to find better ways to include everyone, which also has now become parallel with our flags, such as the progressive pride flag that includes the black and brown stripes and the trans colors. Or most recently, being now redesigned to also include the intersex flag symbol. I think part of identifying within this community and practicing allyship towards us means getting messy and having to be okay with not having identities and terms neatly boxed, for examples. We're likely going to continue to see changes with the initialisms, acronyms, and flags- and terminology. And all of that is okay and valid.

[00:21:10] Shane Whalley

I think the other thing that happens, and I hear it sometimes, is people say LGBTQ, and how many ever letters they're going to add on, as an identity. And I'm like, "No, that's not my identity, my identity is that I'm queer and genderqueer. I am one or two of those letters, I am not an LGBT person," right? And so I often find myself saying all of the words out loud so people realize that that's not the word. [Shane laughs] That there are identities and histories and struggle and beauty and pride, associated with a word, you know, an identity that's encapsulated in each one of those letters.

[00:21:57] Chris Angel Murphy

A way that I've explained it to folks sometimes is that it can change based on geography, like our neighbors to the north up in Canada also have 2S for Two Spirit. And that's honoring indigenous communities. And we don't really have that here, as- that we acknowledge

[00:22:19] Shane Whalley

Right.

[00:22:20] Chris Angel Murphy

And I've also seen places where they've put the T first. And to me, that's a political statement, right? It's like, we are acknowledging that maybe this community needs more acknowledgement in how we work. And I think that can be mixed. And you know, especially again, coming from our social work backgrounds, we think of data and things like that, which can be flawed. But when people are engaging in certain actions or behaviors, again, yeah, we kind of have to find a way to classify it. And that's why then we'll have again, these these terms that didn't come from the community, but terms such as men who have sex with men (MSM) to talk about a specific act, right. And so that when it comes to STIs, and things like that, like we know, this is a thing we need to be mindful of, you know. How do we then advertise to these folks and spread awareness about what they need to do to have safer sex and things like that? Yeah, I guess, I don't know. Do you have any other thoughts around that? And just like how people decide which acronyms they're going to use, or which initialisms or not?

[00:23:31] Shane Whalley

And I learned something new. I've never heard the word initialism, so thank you. I'm going to add that into my things to- [Chris Angel laughs] things to chew on. You know, I think there's a parallel right now going on with DEI, right? Diversity, equity inclusion, right. Like on my website, I don't use the D word. Right. Like I talk about inclusion, equity, and justice. Because diversity, for me as- a diversity without justice is da- is dangerous to those invited, right. So I think white supremacy culture like standardization, and t-things and tidy boxes. And I think if we're really going to talk about justice, then communities get to name themselves, talk about how they want to be talked about. I- The other thing I talk about is that respect, that comes up a lot for me with Sir and Ma'am, right, like trying to get people not to Sir and Ma'am? I'm a white headed person that sometimes is read as male. So, like, serving me is respect in Texas. And I talked to people about the fact that respect has to be thought about from the eye of the receiver, not from the eye of the giver, right? It's like, how does it land on me? Not how did you intend it, right? Like the impact is more important than the intention. And so I think what the acronym looks like and how it changes and you know, whether that's regionally or culturally. Like, there's an organization in Austin, that's ALLGO. It's ALLGO.org. And their original name was the Austin, Latino, Latina, Gay organization. That is not who they are, but they have chosen intentionally not to change their acronym. Right? Like they, they have kept their act, they've kept their alphabet, it's ALLGO. Maybe that's an acronym. [Chris Angel laughs] Now I'm gonna have to think about this.

[00:25:34] Chris Angel Murphy

Yes.

[00:25:35] Shane Whalley

Right. But their mission has changed, who they serve has changed, a little bit about what they do is change. But they kept their, their identity in terms of their language. There are other organizations, right, The National Task Force is now just The National Task Force, and they've taken like some of the language out. I think we get to be messy and that people need to be okay with that.

[00:25:59] Chris Angel Murphy

I agree, something that's been really interesting is that PFLAG, there's possibly quite a few folks who don't know this, but-

For those of you who may not be familiar with their work, PFLAG is a national nonprofit organization for LGBTQ+ people, their parents and families and allies. They have chapters and support groups all over the United States. They have a wonderful glossary of terms as well as guides, scholarships, and more. So if you haven't heard of them before, you should check them out at PFLAG.org. Now back to the interview.

quite a few years ago, PFLAG went on this search for about two years to change their name to be more inclusive, they spent absurd amounts of money on this only to land on still using PFLAG, however, not using it as an initialism anymore. So historically, it was parents and friends of lesbians and gays, but now it's just PFLAG. And the huge reason why they kept the name but dropped the initialism was because the brand recognition was just worldwide. And so they didn't feel like they could make that change. And yet, chapter to chapter, of which there's over 400 at least, some of them still have the old verbiage, you know, either on their websites or their signs and things like that. And so it's just, it's interesting.

[00:27:26] Shane Whalley

I remember that conversation. And I have to say, I still will say out their old name, and then I will add, "and they have worked very hard to be trans inclusive". Because I think PFLAG is one of those organizations that went on quite a journey to be trans inclusive, right, like that was not an overnight or easy journey for them. And I don't know about on national, but I know some of, you know, some of our local chapters. And so there's also importance in the history, right? Like I say, what ALLGO used to stand for in Austin and people are like, "really?" I'm like, yes, because our histories matter and have meaning and talk about our journeys, right? Like I tell that story about voting no to include trans because it is important in my journey, right? To be who I am now. And so I think if we erase or pretend that names didn't used to mean something and the journey that people have been on, we're missing, then, for me- it gives hope that individuals can change and grow. Because our own community organizations have had to change and grow. So why am I not going to give the same room to my neighbor, or my friend or my co worker? That they all- or my parents, right? That they that they can also, you know, kind of change and grow and evolve?

[00:28:53] Chris Angel Murphy

Yeah, and I have two different trains of thoughts going on. Because first is the acknowledgement and we never want to dead name anyone, right? So we wouldn't, if someone's trans if they've changed their name, we would never bring that up. We would never ask them what that was. There's very few legal reasons why we would need to ask someone for that kind of information. It's very privileged information. So-so there's that. And the other thing I'm thinking of too, I'm going back to when you were talking about being you know, conflicted about adding + as the as part of the initialism. And I don't know, I remember when trans had an asterisk (trans*) and some people still use that. And then I remember some of the discourse was, "well, there aren't other communities using symbols like that, so like, why are we doing it?" I was in graduate school at the time. Umm, getting my master's in social work. And I just remember thinking "actually, this is kind of neat from a research standpoint, because it kind of fills in when you're searching terms". Because when you search trends with asterisk *, you also get transgender, you get just all of the variants of it, and so part of me really embraced that. What- What was like your hot take, so to speak with that whole movement?

[00:30:09] Shane Whalley

it's interesting to hear that take, right? Like you can't- So one frame would be is a helpful shorthand. And now we just say trans, we don't even put the asterisk and we may forget that there are at least three, I can instantaneously think of, ways to three ways to complete. Two of which are kind of okay, and one we just don't use at all anymore. Right?

[00:30:30] Chris Angel Murphy

Right.

[00:30:30] Shane Whalley

And so unless we're talking about Rocky Horror Picture Show.

[00:30:36] Chris Angel Murphy

[Chris Angel laughs] yeah.

[00:30:36] Shane Whalley

And even then we might be careful. So, I mean, I think there's an evolution, which hopefully, is always progress. And I also think it kept us sometimes from having harder conversations around the difference between somebody who was- and it's funny because transsexual we actually don't use very much anymore, unless we're talking about kind of medical model or diagnoses, right? Like that word and in casual conversation doesn't- doesn't get used. And I think trans asterisk is kind of the beginning of the end for transsexual. Is it a shorthand that's helpful? Is it a shorthand that is that kind of form of laziness that we don't want to, like, speak out multisyllable words that actually have meaning for people? And I don't know, because again, it's not like we all got together and decided trans* [Shane laughs]. And you know, I think about the difference between, again, as somebody who came out, right, as the internet was, like, new. And I was like, on message boards. I was on a board, and we would never use this term now, probably [Shane laughs]. I was on a board that was called "boychicks" and it was the only way that I had any community. So if you came up with a word, if you invented a word, there was no good way to get it everywhere [Shane laughs]. But with the internet, it's meant that as you know, language and words evolve... You know, I think, another story, I would tell myself, it's like, I came up using the terms MTF, and FTM, which we also don't use anymore, right? We talk about trans men and trans women.

[00:32:23] Chris Angel Murphy

For those of you not familiar with F to M (FTM), or M to F (MTF), it stands for female-to-male or male-to-female.

[00:32:31] Shane Whalley

I hadn't- I wasn't consciously aware that that change had happened. And I used the initials on Facebook. And a young trans person was like- who didn't know me-- was like, "we don't use it!" Right? Like, "how terrible, transphobic!" And I was like, "hey, hey, I've been out for 25 years." And there's gener- there's also generational context, right? So if somebody grew up strongly identifying as M-to-F (MTF), do we have the right to tell them they can't use that language for themselves anymore? And I believe we we shouldn't. It is their language, right? Now, am I gonna- do I use that language anymore? In trainings, I don't. In public, I don't. Like, I have moved my language. I also know trans folks who really don't like trans men and trans women, again, back to the cultural humility piece, like we have to be nimble. And we have to ask, one, we have to get consent, like, "Hey, I'm wondering if you'd be willing to tell me a little bit more about why don't like the term transman", right? Or can you look something up and read about that, you know, and kind of read and learn about the history. So I think, again, like our desire for checklists and easy answers, you got to let go, we just we have to let go of it. And this isn't just true in the LGBTQ community, right? This is true in most marginalized communities, right, because oppressors give us our initial language, right, like homosexual was coined, so somebody could research us. And then communities build language over time that is more resonant with us, you know, think about- I was just in a conversation with a friend of mine who's a wheelchair user, thinking about the difference between person first language around folks with disabilities and identity first language, right? And there's a switch with the younger population that they're using identity first language, right? And yet, I've been training social workers for a long time to use person first language. It isn't just complicated, it's complex. And we have to be able to sit in that complexity.

[00:34:55] Chris Angel Murphy

Absolutely. Speaking of complexity, I've known you for over a decade. [Shane laughs] And you know, I recall a point years ago, you were publicly thinking and considering dropping ze set pronouns and perhaps going to use they/them moving forward. And it I don't know, as a friend, I just perceived this as like you being in a lot of pain around this and not really wanting to do this, but just trying to make sense of a way to have the world be a little bit easier for you. I mean, I look now, and obviously, you're using ze set pronouns, which brings me joy, because I know that feels most authentic to you and it's really important to you. So can you share more about that time? And what led to that moment for you?

[00:35:46] Shane Whalley

Yeah. So, you know, I first heard ze/hir/hirs at a conference in probably 1995. Right? So they're, they're old, right? [Shane laughs] And for me ze/hir/hirs were at least the first kind of gender- we would have called it gender neutral, right? 100 years ago, um, and I knew people who were using them, like on message boards, right? Like in community, people were using them. And when I became the Education Coordinator for the Gender Sexuality Center, at UT Austin, I decided if I couldn't use ze/hir/hirs in that job, like, I was never going to be able to do it. So, I adopted ze/hir/hirs and have been using them publicly since 2007. And in 2007, I actually found an article that said, like, from 2007 to 2009, somewhere in there, that ze/hir/hirs where the most popular gender non-binary pronouns. Which is funny now, right, because now- and then for a hot minute, we tried to use we called them Spivak pronouns, right? E/em/eir we took the th off of they/them/their. And that was a colossal fail, no one could do it. It lasted like five minutes. And then people started using they/them/their and I lovingly say, they've won the pronoun wars, which makes me a little sad. So every couple of years, I think I sit with myself and think about, you know, do I want to move to they/them/their and I think at the time that I was doing that I was changing jobs. And I was moving into a job that was not an LGBT-specific job. It was a metal- it was kind of bigger metal health work, macro mental health work. And I was like, "Okay, do I just want to make it a little easier on myself and on others and go to they/them/their?" And I posted that on Facebook. And then I never did it. But I never told Facebook, I think that I wasn't going to do it. Because, like ze/hir/hirs- I use them for a couple of reasons. I use them because they're mine. They've been mine since 2007. I use them because they're the first pronouns I heard. I use them because I'm an elder and they hold historical context. And so when people ask me why I use them, I always tell that very long story of the history, right? Because I, I worry that elders are no longer with us. And I'm amazed I made it to 60. We're gonna lose that history. So I use the, you know, I personally use the pronouns so when people ask, I can tell, I can tell that history and yes, it was really painful because I I felt like I was doing it for others and not for me. And when I sat with myself and realized that that was the motivation, I didn't do it.

[00:38:43] Chris Angel Murphy

I'm glad you didn't either.

[00:38:45] Shane Whalley

Thanks.

[00:38:46] Chris Angel Murphy

And I love that yeah. I love to that you sit- you sit with yourself and you kind of check in just like a little temperature check, right? Like, is this resonating with me? Is this the language I still want to use for myself, or at least still the pronouns I want to use. I-that, that feels really critical just to like one's self awareness and journey.

[00:39:06] Shane Whalley

I mean, I do that around pronouns. And I do that about testosterone. Like, it took me a decade to have top surgery because I wondered what it meant about A) how I would be perceived B) would it- would I cross a gender line [Shane laughs] that I didn't want to cross and so I do the same thing every two to five years around whether I'm going to take testosterone or not. And so far that you know the answer for that has been no. And then I think about like, what would it mean to be like 65 and spend my truly elder years right like retire on test-, right, on testosterone and get to have a little great grizzled beard. Um, but I've got five years to make that decision. So I do I think, you know, I think part of the like trans or non-binary experience is that we hopefully sit and rest with ourselves to figure out what is authentic for us. What are we doing for us? What are we doing that we think is going to help us navigate the world? Right? What is the expectation or pulls or pressures from the community, which I'm hoping are calming down, right? But when I first came out, and went to, I had the economic good fortune and was living on the east coast where there were a couple of conferences, of going to conferences. And, you know, everybody asked me when I was going to transition, and when I said I wasn't, they were like, "What?" I'm like, yeah, I'm happy here. Right? And I actually, I went to a conference in 2002. Somebody said to me, they're like, "well, if people like you exist, then people aren't going to allow us to transition." Right? Like, if you deconstruct gender, then there won't be room for me. And I was like, "No, I'm not trying to take anything away from anyone else. I'm just trying to make room for me," we should have be able to have all like this expansive gender, and I think, you know, 2021, we're at this place where gender is just so incredibly expansive. And the young, the younger generation, this K through 12 generation, the generation who's in K through 12- they're blowing gender, like they're just blowing gender up. And I think within another generation, I always joke that, you know, when we're born, we're given a gender rulebook. But, I think those robots are going to look super different a generation from now than they looked for you and me. And even though hopefully, ours looked a little different, because I got some Mad Men gender notebook, which is a terrible gender notebook, right?

[00:41:45] Chris Angel Murphy

Oof. [Shane laughs] What's interesting, too, is there's an argument to be made that you did transition. Because I mean, one way that I've framed transition, as it relates to people who are transgender for example, is that, you know, there's a social transition, there's medical, there's legal, you know, um and those all mean different things. But what's most important is, again, coming back to how you identify, and which language resonates with you.

So at times when people come out, as LGBTQ+ alphabet soup, whichever initialism or acronym we want to use in this moment, they can feel a lot of invasive questions from well intentioned people. With that in mind, what's one question you wish people would stop asking you?

[00:42:40] Shane Whalley

Yeah, I'm trying to think it's such an inter- I think is somebody who is a facilitator. I professionally opened myself up to be asked a lot of questions. I think the "Do I really have to learn your pronouns?" Yes, yes. Right. It's like, yes, you do, right. I think especially because I use the ze/hir/hirs, which are particularly harder for folks, which is why they lost the pronoun wars. [Chris Angel laughs] But I think the like, people wanting a pass, if we're going back again, to allyship, I think allyship is not asking for a pass on doing the work. And so the like, "how long do I have to learn your pronouns? Or what is going to happen? If I make a mistake with your pronouns? Or can't I just talk about you and never use pronouns?" It's like, the answer is, "yes, you have the right to do all of that. And then you have the right to have me be grumpy with you." [Chris Angel laughs] Right?

Like, I tell people, because I've heard I've even heard people kind of train this, I'm like, "No!" You know, the easy workaround is to use people's name. And I'm like, if I am hearing myself being talked about, and I only ever hear my name, I know that you are avoiding using my pronouns, right. And I, at some point, if I have a relationship with you, I'm going to pull you aside and say, [Chris Angel laughs] I'm in this is what I say to people. "I am curious how I can support you in learning my pronouns?" And usually that is the sentence they need to hear and they're on it, but they think they've [Shane laughs] done a workaround I haven't noticed. Right? So I think it's that like all things around- kind of difficulty with pronouns. And so that isn't always a question

And the other piece of that right now is I think we're in this weird moment in time where a lot of other issues are barriers that trans folks are facing- trans and nonbinary folks are facing, aren't getting talked about, because the only thing people are talking about are pronouns. Like, there's other stuff in my life that I would like you to know what's going on, right? Especially in Texas, where we have ridiculous bills being passed,

[00:45:10] Chris Angel Murphy

Which is a great lead into the follow-up question, which is, what's something you wish people asked you more?

[00:45:17] Shane Whalley

Oh [Shane laughs]. How you doing? Do you like milk or dark chocolate? [Chris Angel laughs] Are you a cat or a dog person? Right? I mean, I think there's so much more to who I am. Right, like, I love that you started off by asking me about three of my identities, right? And to talk about those, right, like I have, I often think about this and, you know, I think even with marriage equality, which supposedly solved everything, which it didn't [Chris Angel laughs]. But, you know, when people find out- and I think this is a place where my age and my sexual orientation collide. But, people don't ask me anymore if I'm in a relationship. People aren't curious if I'm dating. I don't know if people assume I am or I'm not in a relationship. Right.

[00:46:08] Chris Angel Murphy

Do you think that's ageism?

[00:46:10] Shane Whalley

I do. I think- it's I think it's where, right, I think it's where things meet. You know, for a long time, and, you know, maybe this is shifting, but I don't, I don't think it's shifting as much. But, you know, it's like, I'm currently single. But, I've been in long term relationships and I just found that people weren't very curious about my relationships in the same way- and not in the same way that I, you know, you hear people talking about heterosexual relationships, and asking, "Well, you know, how did you meet how long you've been together, you know, when's your anniversary?" Like, all of those kinds of questions and I just find that with kind of queer relationships, that line of questioning doesn't happen.

And again, I think when people say, "Well, I'm married," then maybe they ask, but if if I'm just in a relationship, and I haven't been legally married- there's a lack of curiosity around things that- it's like, because my identity is "different" and I'm putting that in quotes- people feel like they don't know what to ask. And the thing is, I want to be asked to all the same types of questions you would ask anyone else. And so it isn't just one question, right? Like it's zillion questions that I wish people would ask me.

[00:47:33] Chris Angel Murphy

What's one allyship tip you'd like for everyone listening to consider?

[00:47:40] Shane Whalley

For me, recovery is the most important thing.

[00:47:43] Chris Angel Murphy

Mmm.

[00:47:44] Shane Whalley

I think being a good ally, is the willingness to be uncomfortable. If you make a mistake, I'm a big believer that I would love for someone- I've been trying to start a hashtag. Yeah, 60-year-old people can start hashtags.

[00:48:00] Chris Angel Murphy

Yes, you can.

[00:48:01] Shane Whalley
That's right. #AcknowledgeandApologize and then ask if there's anything needed for repair and then do better. Right. And so for me, we're always going to make mistakes. We're always going to make mistakes. But, what we do once we do them is again, for me, is where our greatest learning happens and it's where our greatest healing happens.

[00:48:30] Chris Angel Murphy

Visit AllyshipIsAVerb.com for any resources and a full transcript of the episode. You can also follow @GenderSexualityInfo on Instagram. Thank you for practicing allyship with me. And remember, sometimes allyship means hashtag #AcknowledgeandApologize.