[00:00:17] Chris Angel Murphy

Don't touch that dial. You are now listening to Allyship is a Verb, an LGBTQ+ educational podcast. I am your host, Chris Angel, and my pronouns are they/them.

[00:00:38] Laura Graving

Hey, my name is Laura Graving, and my pronouns are she, her, hers.

[00:00:44] Chris Angel Murphy

Laura and I met back in 2009 at the Campus Pride LGBTQ Summer Leadership Academy. Campus Pride is a national nonprofit organization based in North Carolina for student leaders and campus groups working to create a safer college environment for LGBTQ students. Laura's a small business owner with a big heart. Over the years, she's volunteered for many different causes, including some projects I've created. She's also goofy as heck, as evidenced by her Instagram business page. There's some pretty clever and cute reels over there that might give you a laugh, especially if you're into things like crystals and tarot. I'd also like to recommend her services. I mean, she'll be embarrassed if she ever listens to this episode, but I wholeheartedly believe in her abilities. I've turned to her and her work over the years to amplify any of the work I've been doing. And I've felt a difference. Be it interpreting bizarre dreams, clarifying messages from the universe, and when I needed a Reiki Master. So, if any of that stuff is stuff you're into, make sure to go to the podcast website and find her info on her episode page, and go support her work. And now let's jump to the conversation.

[00:02:03] Chris Angel Murphy

You identify as queer, a feminist, a small business owner, and a self-healer. Can you share what those identities mean to you?

[00:02:14] Laura Graving

Of course! So queer, for me, is permission to question yourself, question your identity, permission to change and grow. It's very fluid and my identity and my sense of self has changed so so many times over the years. For feminist, I know there's a large critique of feminism, that it's not intersectional; that it's primarily white women. For me, feminism is dismantling systems of oppression in whatever ways you're able to, and that saying, "My feminism will be intersectional or it will be BS" is very, very integral to my feminism. For self-healer and small business owner, these two, for me, go hand-in-hand very much, because my business has played a huge role in healing my sense of self, my confidence, and working through a lot of my codependent tendencies. Because in many ways, it is something that's just for me. It has helped me heal myself in a lot of ways. And it definitely doesn't hurt that my business consists of spiritual healing. So, those are what my identities mean to me.

[00:03:42] Chris Angel Murphy

I've known you for over a decade and something that's been exciting for me, as your friend... For those of you listening, the same camp- Campus Pride, where I met Shane Whalley from the first episode of this podcast, Laura was also one of the people there and instrumental to making it happen, because what did they call your role that you did?

[00:04:05] Laura Graving

Pride leaders.

[00:04:06] Chris Angel Murphy

Pride leaders. Yeah. So, Laura was a pride leader and that was how we met and we've just sort of been friends throughout the years. So, something that's been really exciting for me is just to see you launch and-and grow your business. And it hasn't been without its challenges, because something that we both care about, as both of us are, you know, small business owners, is this concept of being ethical and sustainable with our practices. And so you even state on your website, "This work has changed my life, which is why I'm committed to making my offerings as accessible as possible." And your mission statement says, "to provide spiritual healing and guidance as a means of empowering those who are disheartened by life's obstacles, especially queer, BIPOC, and disabled communities." So I'm wondering, is this part of what it means for you to explore ethical and sustainable business practices?

[00:05:03] Laura Graving

Absolutely. I think in the business world, it's very much about the bottom line. Especially since, you know, we live in a capitalist society. And I don't want to get caught up in the money, at least overly caught up in the money. Because, if I do want to do this full time and have this be my primary form of income, it has to be about money to some extent, unfortunately. But, I want it to be about the healing, because I believe the world would be such a different place if these types of offerings were available and accessible to people, to everyone. Especially people who are affected by systems of oppression.

[00:05:52] Chris Angel Murphy

Right, so marginalized communities. Is there anything else that you're hoping to roll out or do with your business to continue living this as one of your values?

[00:06:05] Laura Graving

Yeah, I actually just launched a spiritual community. It's a membership that is $5 a month. And it's a place to network, make friends, learn about other spiritual and healing practices that other people are practicing. So, you can grow your own practice, you can grow your own healing journey. You also have access to content that is not available on my social media, such as a monthly reading where I draw a card for the energy that we're working with, what we need to let go of, what we need to call in, and where it's all taking us. You also get early access to any sort of reading that I might offer on my social media. All of that for just $5 a month. And if that's still a financial burden, then I am willing to do sliding scale or bartering. I very much want these things to be accessible.

[00:07:17] Chris Angel Murphy

That's really awesome. So, being a queer business owner, is that something that's important for you to share out or make known? And, you know, are there any inherent challenges or obstacles that you experience?

[00:07:30] Laura Graving

Yeah. So, as you know, I spent most of my life in suburban, sometimes rural Ohio, and I recently moved to New York City last year. And for most of my time, as a small business owner, I haven't really been very open about being a queer business owner. Part of it is because there wasn't a very large, queer community in Ohio. And part of it was Ohio's a very conserv- conservative state. So it was just, it was safer and it was easier to not- to not broadcast that. Now that I'm in New York City, which is a much more diverse and open place, I very much want to reconnect with the queer community. And I very much want to bring these offerings to the queer community, because I have been without a sense of community for several years at this point. And part of it was that I needed time to heal, especially working through codependent tendencies. And a part of it is that there wasn't much of a community. So, now that I have the opportunity to connect with a queer community, and now that I'm in a very different space than I was, I'm very eager to create a queer- queer environment, queer community, a little queer spiritual family, if you will.

[00:09:11] Chris Angel Murphy

I love that. You mentioned about- so that there's a small community that, hopefully not super small, right? We want it to grow. So, you mentioned about this community that you're starting and how you're going to be picking a card once a month, you know, based on the energy of the folks that are in that group with you and everything. And, you know, as I scroll through your Instagram account, you pick a different tarot card each week, and then give folks prompts for journaling based on what you pick. And, [Chris Angel laughs] I don't know, I'm already laughing about this. I've talked about it with a few people, but one thing I've noticed over the years is this trend of seeing folks in the LGBTQ+ community dive into practices like exploring astrology, tarot, and the like. Certainly, dating profiles, and social media bios can be super specific about someone's moon, their sun rising, all of this stuff I cannot speak to and Laura can. Certainly there are folks, I would imagine who are like myself, and maybe know, "I'm a Virgo, and sometimes I can laugh at Virgo memes." And that's it. That's where it stops. But, I'm curious, why do you think so many folks in our community explore these kinds of practices?

[00:10:23] Laura Graving

For me, there are two answers to this question. The first one is kind of the obvious go-to answer in that, up until recently, astrology and tarot, etc, has been sort of a taboo topic. It's not very widely accepted, because it's not science based. And there's something comforting about surrounding yourself with a fringe practice when your identity is typically on the fringe. And I think that's part of it, but I also think that there is a much deeper answer to this question. And that's these types of practices provide us with a way of being seen that a lot of the important people in our lives cannot provide us with. Like, the queer community sees a lot of rejection, especially from family members who might be more conservative. And to be seen, to look at your birth chart, and be told, "Oh, you might behave this way because of this certain placement. Or you may be feeling this way because of this transit right now." It's very validating. It's a way for us to feel like we're not alone and that we're not crazy for being who we are. You know, because when- when people tell us, especially I see this a lot with my enby friends-

[00:12:05] Chris Angel Murphy

There is a little discourse here I'd like to highlight and also to help explain what my friend just said. NB, or enby, and yes, there's the difference [Chris Angel laughs] are abbreviations of nonbinary. It used to be shortened to the letters NB. But, that was already a shorthand for nonblack. I was pretty surprised that the writers left it in for season three of Sex Education on Netflix, if you're a fan of that show- Cal is awesome. Though, there isn't some mass queer and trans form we all use to debate these topics. So, sometimes the information isn't accessible and we may disagree. So, folks came up with enby spelled E N B Y. However, there's some debate on if this is infantilizing our community. Some people claim it and use it and some don't. So, if you're a person who does not claim the identity of nonbinary, I'd encourage you to simply say nonbinary just to be safe. I'm saying all of this to help give some context about how things can shift rather quickly in our community, and provide yet another example of how we don't always agree on language or changes. And lastly, my friend didn't do anything wrong here. I just thought it would be neat to give you all a little sneak peek behind the curtains and let you know about something that's currently impacting our community. So, back to the conversation.

[00:13:30] Laura Graving

You see a lot of people who are like, "Oh, no, your identity doesn't exist. You're either man or woman. There's nothing- there's not a third option." And to have a practice that sees you and says, "yes, you are who you are." That is very healing.

[00:13:50] Chris Angel Murphy

I know that there can be decks that are queer and trans inclusive. Those can be a little harder to find sometimes or it might be more money, because, you know, smaller businesses are trying to crank that out and so they don't have access to some of the deeper discounts other places might get for sheer quantity amounts and- and stuff like that. So, I don't know, I guess do you have, like, suggestions around how people, especially from the queer community, you know, the queer and trans community- that they can find people either to follow, you know, for either looking for their horoscopes or looking for tarot decks or any of the like? Do you have like tips or suggestions around that?

[00:14:33] Laura Graving

My first tarot deck, The Dark Exact, there's definitely masculine and feminine qualities in it, you know, the traditional Empress and Emperor. But, the guidebook to this tarot deck is very gender nonconforming. It talks about how we all have masculine and feminine qualities, and it talks about queering the tarot a little bit. I highly recommend The Dark Exact. Coleman Stevenson is fantastic, creator of The Dark Exact. She knows her stuff so well, and she has a bunch of other projects going on. So, I highly recommend her deck and checking her out. Marcela Kroll is a really fantastic reader who you can find on Instagram, I highly recommend her as well. She has created her own tarot deck as well as her own oracle deck. And her oracle deck, The Sacred Symbols Oracle Deck, is very, very powerful. I've seen her read with it several times. And every time, it feels like the reading, even though it's a collective reading for everyone, I feel like her reading always hits spot on. So, I highly recommend her as well.

[00:16:03] Chris Angel Murphy

Coming back to your website again, you have a resources page that lists ethical herbalists and information around the westernized Reiki and decolonization. I also remember we briefly talked about white sage, as an example, you know, in our- in our friendship semi-recently, and the impact that, especially white people, can have on the availability of it because it's become so popular as a practice over the years. I know lots of my queer and trans friends use this to cleanse a space. So my questions would be, how do we know what we're buying is ethical or sustainable? And how do we, and I'm mostly talking to white people here, how do we reduce or stop unintentional harm?

[00:16:52] Laura Graving

One big red flag, you can recognize for if the the white sage you're buying is not sustainable, is if it's coming from a big chain, like Whole Foods or Five Below I think has started selling white sage and Palo Santo. Those stores, it's just not possible for them to ethically source, their product. My first advice is avoid big box stores.

[00:17:22] The second piece of advice would be to buy from Native people whenever possible, because this is a practice that started with them, right? So, we want to financially support them.

[00:17:38] The next piece of advice I would say would be ask the seller, if they know where their sage is sourced from. If they don't, there's nothing wrong with that, just don't buy it. And this is what I do, you can instead of burning white sage, burn something like lavender or mint or cedar- something that is native to where you live. And I think honestly, that's one of the best approaches because that's a deeper connection, right? Because it's something from- from your life. It's not something taken from another practice. It's, like, a plant that you grew up with in your backyard or at the park or something. And so incorporating that type of energy into your spiritual practice and into your smoke cleansing can have many, many benefits.

[00:18:41] A lot of white people will call smoke cleansing, using white sage, they'll call it smudging. When smudging is a Native American practice that, unless a Native person has taught you and has invited you into their spiritual community, it's not something you know how to do. And in calling smoke cleansing smudging, we are erasing this traditional Native practice. And you see a lot of that type of thing in New Age spiritual communities, where a practice really resonates with someone. So, they take that practice from a different culture. And you think that, "oh, well, by adopting this practice, I'm helping to preserve this tradition." But, what ends up happening is that we don't do our research. We don't give the practice- we don't give the tradition it's due. And we don't do what we can to learn everything about it. And so instead of preserving it, we end up erasing it, which hurts the tradition and also hurts our own personal practice. This is something that I have been working through and trying to address within my own practice. But that erasure, and that appropriation, has been something that I've definitely been reflecting on a lot lately.

[00:20:22] Chris Angel Murphy

Yeah, that's, that's part of the work is reflecting on how we can do better. Part of allyship is recognizing that we make mistakes, which can be quite humbling. Is there a time you wished you had done a better job of practicing allyship? And what do you do differently now?

[00:20:43] Laura Graving

This is something that is a lifelong process for me, and that is speaking up and gently correcting someone when they say something problematic. It's much easier for me to do in a text-based space. So, if it's on Facebook, or if it's texting a friend, because I have that time to put together my words, and think of how I want to phrase it, and what the right words are for me. In the moment, face-to-face when it happens, I tend to freeze up, because I'm just caught off guard. And again, like I said, it's still something I'm working on. I'm slowly getting better at it. And it's getting there. There are still times where I'm caught off guard, and freeze up and don't know what to say, and then the moment has passed. But I am getting better about just gently asking questions and approaching with curiosity. Like, if someone uses a word that tends to be derogatory, like the R word when it comes to the disabled community. Instead of going on the offense and saying, "you know, that's really offensive." Instead saying, "hey, you know, that word has been used in a derogatory way towards the disabled community in the past. Do you have negative feelings towards the disabled community? And can we talk about that?"

[00:22:32] Chris Angel Murphy

With so many things happening in the world, I feel like I can take a leap of faith here in saying that you're not alone in that, right? And it can be challenging to work hard to do the right thing, especially if you're feeling emotionally charged and to come at it from a place of curiosity. So, I really like that as an approach. And I guess what I'm thinking on in the moment, as you share that is, people have to figure out what works for them and also listen to the feedback of the community, too. So, I think it becomes more and more challenging, because we don't want to be a bystander and not intervene. But then sometimes it's not for us to intervene. And I think it's just become this very complicated landscape of knowing what's right to do in the moment. So, what I'm- what I'm hearing is that You're approaching this by calling in your friends and calling them in privately and trying to call in with curiosity. Is that right?

[00:23:29] Laura Graving

Correct, yes.

[00:23:30] Chris Angel Murphy
Yeah, that's challenging work. Sometimes, folks in the LGBTQ+ community will read a book, hear a song, watch a movie, even if it's a really bad movie [Both laugh]. I can think of a few in our community off the top of my head, but some sort of moment may happen in their life, which gives them almost, like, permission to be or sparks a moment of "maybe THIS is who I am." Was there a moment like that for you?

[00:23:58] Laura Graving
Surprisingly, not really. I don't think I gave myself permission to explore the possibility that I may be queer in some way, until I got to high school. I went to an all-girls Catholic high school. Until I got to high school and I started developing feelings for some of the friends I had met and that was when I couldn't really ignore it. Because the feelings were like, "Hey, [Chris Angel laughs] hey, pay attention to me." And I kept trying to tell myself like, "Oh, no, they're just really cool. And I really like them as a friend, they're just a really good friend." And it's like, the emotion got so overwhelming that I couldn't keep ignoring it. So for me, it wasn't anything in like a book or a movie, it was just my connections with people.

[00:24:59] Chris Angel Murphy
And at times when people come out as LGBTQ, they can feel a lot of invasive questions. So with that in mind, what's one question you wish people would stop asking you?

[00:25:13] Laura Graving
Because up until maybe 3 or 4 years ago, I had only ever dated queer people. And I recently started dating cisgender men. And when I get to know men on dates, and I tell them, "Oh, yeah, up until, however long ago, I hadn't dated cisgender men." One, very surprised. And two, they almost always asked me, "What made you decide to start dating cisgender men?" And that's a question I don't mind answering but, it's a question I wish was saved for when we knew each other a little better because it's very much connected to my trauma, and working through my trauma, and being in therapy, and working through some really heavy stuff. So, that's not ideally something you want to talk about on a first date. So instead, I wish people would ask me, "Are there things you like about dating cisgender men that you don't really get from other people?" Or vice versa. Because I see so many differences in it's almost like cultural differences, of a sort. And that's something that's not typically talked about, and I find it to be very, very interesting, from like, a sociological perspective. So, that is a much lighter topic and conversation, instead of diving into my journey of healing my trauma on the first date [Both laugh].

[00:27:13] Chris Angel Murphy
As you were taking us on that journey, I was just thinking, "Ugh, are they gonna ask about a threesome?" That's- that's where I thought you were gonna take this. Has that come up as a question?

[00:27:24] Laura Graving
Oh, that specific question, no, but-

[00:27:29] Chris Angel Murphy
Whew, okay. Some humanity restored.

[00:27:32] Laura Graving
Right? But, there have been guys who, and usually I cut them off when this happens, they get very excited when they find out that I've primarily dated cisgender women and it's like, "Ooh, you're getting excited about this in a really gross, fetishizing way. So, we're just, we're not gonna go on a date. Yeah."

[00:28:02] Chris Angel Murphy
That's fair. Yeah, cuz I think like you said, the difference is, if you talk about- if both of you have dated women who are cisgender, there could be interesting conversations there. Not in a sexualized way, but like, "Oh, what's your experience like? Or something. You know, if you're open to that conversation. But yeah, when they they make it something gross. Ugh. Blaaaah.

[00:28:22] Laura Graving
Yeah. [Laura laughs]

[00:28:23] Chris Angel Murphy
Well, for you, what are some of the- what have been some of the differences culturally?

[00:28:29] Laura Graving
Dating cisgender women is, for me, very challenging, because I am naturally not a pursuer. Throughout my entire life, I've let things come to me and then decided, is this the right thing to keep in my life? So, apparently, a lot of other cisgender women have the same approach. [Chris Angel laughs] Because in dating cisgender women, I've found that it's a lot of conversation, at least on dating apps. It's a lot of conversation and then nothing really comes of it. Or if you do meet someone more organically at a party or through a friend, it's kind of more of the same. It's a lot of conversation and then no one has the guts to- to ask, "So, do you want to be my girlfriend?" Or "do you want to go on a date?" And for me, it's been very challenging to date cisgender women.

[00:29:35] Dating cisgender men has been a learning curve for me, for sure. Because you grow up hearing all of these stereotypes about cisgender men. And I was like, "Yeah, I'm sure there are men like that that exist, but like, I haven't met any. So, who falls into that stereotype?" And I'm realizing I didn't see those stereotypes, because I was queer and wasn't dating cisgender men, they always saw me as someone who was not dateable. And, therefore, they treated me more- more like a person. Again, now we're getting- we're getting into internalized sexism, and all of that fun stuff. These stereotypes do kind of apply, because now they see me as someone who's dateable, someone who's a romantic interest. And so, they're treating me the way the patriarchy has taught them to treat me. That took me a while to understand, because I very much approach cisgender men the way I approach anyone, which is giving them the benefit of the doubt. Roles, I've always been very resistant to gender roles. It's been wild. [Laura laughs] I'll say that much.

[00:31:02] Chris Angel Murphy
Absolutely. And like you said, you know, there can be some stereotypes. And you know, but it's coming back to is, like, your experience. And so, you know, sharing your experience with what dating has been like. It is funny, I mean, it can be confusing for folks who are newly part of the community, because maybe they're questioning or just have newly invited folks in and they're saying, "Hey, I'm LGBTQ+," like, some somewhere in there, right? It can be interesting, because you don't want to ask folks, "Well, who's the man in the relationship?" Right? And that's what people might be thinking when you're saying stuff like the person who's, like, pursuing or initiating, like, "Hey, let's date." I like to think it's like, "Hey, you're cute. Let's date." Like, [Chris Angel laughs] there's like a movie playing in my head or something, [Laura laughs] I don't know. But, so, if I go back to your definition of queer when you said that, what that means to you early on in this episode. There can be this duality of, "How exciting! I get to define my relationships! I get to define myself." And it can also be overwhelming, because, "Oh, my gosh, I have to define myself." [Chris Angel laughs] Or, "I feel like I have to define myself, I feel like I have to define my relationships." Do you feel like with the people that you have been able to date, especially folks in the queer community, were you able to find some sort of balance and not feel like you have to subscribe to rigid gender roles that we've been taught? Or what what is- what was that journey like for you?

[00:32:36] Laura Graving
In my queer relationships, I've never felt any sort of pressure to fit one role versus another. In my straight-appearing relationships, I don't know, I still felt very much myself. But, there was also more, like, traditional gender norms at play, in that I was allowing myself to be pursued instead of uncomfortably [Laura laughs] trying to pursue. And I realized that's something that, like, that's what I'm comfortable with- that's what I desire in a relationship. And it's allowed me to sort of embrace the more gender conforming part of myself. Because again, being queer means allowing yourself to question who you are, and allowing yourself to change. And embracing the part of myself that enjoys being pursued, and is comfortable, more comfortable being pursued than being the pursuer- I was very resistant to that for most of my life, and it's within the last few years that I've become more comfortable with that. It's been a very, very interesting journey. That's for sure. [Laura laughs]

[00:34:04] Chris Angel Murphy
Sounds like it. Can you share about one time you felt truly supported by someone and what they did to show up for you?

[00:34:13] Laura Graving
Yeah, so I used to- my degree is in music and I used to study jazz flute at an independent studio. And there was one day I was talking with the instructor and telling him, you know, "Well, there's sexism in jazz." And he was very defensive, and he's like, "Jazz isn't sexist, what are you talking about?" And I was trying to explain to him about these structures and the system and internalize or systematic sexism. And he was very defensive and very resistant to it. And it kind of left me feeling like I was wrong, like I was crazy, or I didn't know what I was talking about. And especially since I was the only woman in the studio at the time. And the next day, I get a call from one of the other guys in the studio. And he's like, "Hey, I just wanted to say that, like, I heard that conversation between you and the instructor the other day, and I wanted you to know that I understand where you're coming from. I support, you know, like, I'm on your side. I get it." And I appreciated that so much, because even though I wish he had, like, chimed in in that moment, so that I wasn't the only one trying to defend what I was saying, it was still very encouraging to be validated. And to hear, you know, the microaggressions you perceive, like, you're not crazy for perceiving them, they're actually there. And it was, it was very validating for me.

[00:36:15] Chris Angel Murphy
What's one allyship tip you'd like for everyone listening to consider?

[00:36:22] Laura Graving
In order to be a better ally, you have to be willing to accept feedback, accept critique, right? And that, a lot of the time, is going to be uncomfortable. And sometimes our first response might be to get defensive, because we don't- we don't want to be a bad ally, right? We want to do our best. So, our response might be to get defensive and be like, "Well, no, I'm-- I'm a good ally. How dare you say something like that?" My advice is lean into the discomfort instead of trying to pull back from it or push it away. Let yourself be uncomfortable. Allow yourself to be an imperfect human being who makes mistakes, because that's the only way we learn and grow, right? Is by being told, "Hey, you made a mistake," and then taking that and learning from it.

[00:37:25] Chris Angel Murphy
Before you go, I want to remind y'all that there will no longer be mini episodes. Instead, starting in November, I will be producing the guest episodes every other Tuesday. And any self-journaling or question prompts will be at the end of those slightly longer episodes. This is to help me better take care of myself and to keep the podcast going. So, thanks for tuning in, and thank you for your flexibility.

[00:37:53] Chris Angel Murphy
Visit AllyshipIsAVerb.com for any resources and a full transcript of the episode. And remember, sometimes allyship means being open to feedback.