[00:00:00] Chris Angel Murphy: Well, hello there. I'm Chris Angel and my pronouns are they/them. Welcome to Allyship is a Verb, a podcast for people practicing allyship for the LGBTQ+ community and beyond.

[00:00:26] Rebecca Minor: Hi, I'm Rebecca Minor and I use she/her pronouns.

[00:00:30] Chris Angel Murphy: If you've been around here for a while, you may recognize the name. It was inevitable, right? I [laughs] name-drop her fairly often on this podcast, and we've talked about it before and she just laughs whenever she listens. But I digress. Rebecca is a gender specialist, consultant, parent coach, therapist, trainer, runs groups, and so much more, and most importantly, is one of my best friends.

She's got tons of resources I hope you'll check out, too. We met online in 2021, and our first official virtual hang was that December. And as I've mentioned before, being my friend is dangerous. The next thing you know, we're organizing panels and summits together because, by that March, we were running a panel event for Trans Day of Visibility, which you can catch in the first season.

And we're maybe in the process of organizing a summit together? The domain name has been purchased, sooooo… it's possible. Stay tuned. Our conversation ended up being like two hours long, so I was cussing myself out in post-production, trying to get it under an hour. This was not easy, folks, although I did do it to myself.

That said, let's get to the self-reflection questions for you to think about during our chat.

1. If I’ve watched Sesame Street, what have I thought about Bert and Ernie’s relationship?

2. When I hear of the term “lifestyle,” what do I think of first?

3. Do I believe that healing should happen in isolation?

And now, our conversation.

You have a voice made for radio and podcasting.

[00:02:17] Rebecca Minor: Thank you so much.

[00:02:18] Chris Angel Murphy: You're so welcome. I might leave that in. Okay. [Both laugh] Um, all right. You are neuroqueer, femme Jewish, and you put this in, so I'm reading it out. Okay? Chris Angel's number one fan. [laughs] What-

[00:02:36] Rebecca Minor: I did-

[00:02:36] Chris Angel Murphy: You did put that in. [Rebecca laughs] As a sidebar for folks listening, I ask folks ahead of time what identities they think are most important for folks to know while listening to our conversation. And that's what she put in. So, I'm just- [Rebecca laughs] I did not insert that. She put it there, so I'm just reading it.

[00:02:57] Rebecca Minor: It's absolutely true.

[00:02:58] Chris Angel Murphy: It's-

[00:02:58] Rebecca Minor: Yep.

[00:02:59] Chris Angel Murphy: So there we are. And if anyone wants to challenge her, I welcome that [Rebecca laughs], and we will [both laugh] organize an event.

Anyway, [Chris Angel laughs] I have zero ego, so this is hysterical. [Rebecca laughs] Okay. What do those- what do those intersections mean to you?

[00:03:18] Rebecca Minor: [Both laugh] Well, now I'm just thinking about the latter.

[00:03:19] Chris Angel Murphy: Uhhuh.

[00:03:20] Rebecca Minor: Um

[00:03:20] Chris Angel Murphy: We can start there. [Both laugh]

[00:03:24] Rebecca Minor: I mean, mostly I put that there because [Rebecca laughs] A, I did not know it would be part of the podcast episode [Chris Angel laughs] and just thought I was being cute and funny. But also, I am a big fan, and I love the podcast, and I'm so glad we're finally here after who knows how long. So this is our big moment.

[00:03:41] Chris Angel Murphy: It is..

[00:03:42] Rebecca Minor: In terms of the identities that I typically share- [both laugh]

[00:03:46] Chris Angel Murphy: Yes.

[00:03:48] Rebecca Minor: I think about the language of neuroqueer, femme. In part, [Rebecca laughs] neuroqueer is just faster and easier to say than neurodivergent and queer. I used to say I was a queer, cisgender woman. That language, as of late, has felt less connected to me and my understanding of my queerness. Now that I understand this, it's hard to separate my neurodivergence from my queerness. So, I see them as inextricably linked, which is why I like the term kind of nestled together that way.

And femme really speaks to what I see as a really powerful lineage of incredible people, some of whom identify as women, some of whom are trans women, some of whom are nonbinary; whatever the case may be. But it felt like a better term for how I feel.

[00:04:36] Chris Angel Murphy: And then, I guess, did you wanna mention anything about your connection to being Jewish?

[00:04:42] Rebecca Minor: Right. Yes. So, I make an intentional point of including that in my bio and on my website, mostly because Jews have been erased for so long. And so, while I'm not a devout, practicing, very religious person, I feel deeply connected to my cultural sense of being a Jew. And like I said, more than anything, it just feels like an important thing to name, so that that starts to feel like something that's okay. [Rebecca laughs]

[00:05:14] Chris Angel Murphy: Absolutely. And as you were sharing that, and when you mentioned the piece about erasure, I would argue a lot of the identities you carry; that's been something that's been part- and I see you, like, nodding your head. Yeah. That's been something that's been part of a lot of those experiences.

[00:05:34] Rebecca Minor: Mm-hmm.

[00:05:35] Chris Angel Murphy: And I guess, yeah. Is, is there anything you would wanna share about that, in particular?

[00:05:41] Rebecca Minor: Having you reflect that back makes a lot of sense [Rebecca laughs] as I'm hearing it. I'm like, "oh, good point." Yeah, I think especially understanding my neurodivergence just in the last [Rebecca laughs] year or so, really, and I'm, I'm 33 for context, so there were a lot of years there where I didn't fully understand that. So there were some missing pieces there. And then certainly erasure around my queerness. You know, especially being someone who spent many years as a “strong ally” and [both laugh] missed the memo myself on just how queer I was. There was absolutely erasure there. And then the challenge of not always feeling accepted in queer spaces because I am in a relationship; I'm married to a cis man.

[00:06:24] Chris Angel Murphy: Yes, and that's definitely something that's come up on the podcast a lot, especially for people who use terms like “bi” or “pansexual.”

It's interesting because for folks who've maybe listened to, I don't know, the past couple of more recent episodes, I've also been sharing more about my being neuroqueer and, like you said, love a good shortcut [both laugh] to, like, kind of get to the point and obviously holding space for more nuance there and how I see myself in that. But similar to you, you know, you and I joke in our friendship a lot about pipelines. It's, like, the ally to queer pipeline or-

[00:07:03] Rebecca Minor: Mm-hmm.

[00:07:04] Chris Angel Murphy: In my case, when someone is neuroqueer, typically they enter from one side and then figure out the other side of it, right?

[00:07:13] Rebecca Minor: Absolutely.

[00:07:13] Chris Angel Murphy: So that's a whole pipeline.

So I did the, like, queer-to-neurodivergent pipeline, because similar to you, I'm gonna be 36 this year, and I only figured it out within the past couple of years because of TikTok.

[00:07:26] Rebecca Minor: Mm-hmm.

[00:07:27] Chris Angel Murphy: That scary-ass algorithm was just like, your ass is ADHD. And then I, you know, stuck it out a bit on there, and then it's like, "oh, and you're autistic"”

[00:07:38] Rebecca Minor: Was like, "pssst, by the way," yeah. [both laugh]

[00:07:41] Chris Angel Murphy: You make a great point cuz another relationship I'm seeing that's similar for both of us, too, is that you know, these identities are also super duper stigmatized.

[00:07:52] Rebecca Minor: Mm-hmm.

[00:07:52] Chris Angel Murphy: And so the same way we quote-unquote "self-diagnose" as queer or trans, or anything under the LGBTQ+ umbrella, you know, a lot of us also have to do that with neurodivergence because, supposed testing for that- like, even just talking ADHD and autism, and you're like, “hell no, bitch.” I can see you shaking your head in that way. Yeah- [both laugh]

[00:08:12] Rebecca Minor: I was gonna say, I have to remember, and people can't see my face, so I'll, I'll give you more verbal. [both laugh]

[00:08:17] Chris Angel Murphy: It's okay; you can give me both. I'm working with it. Uh, but it's really interesting, and yeah, just the- I know for myself the amount of ableism I've been experiencing, you know, systemically and otherwise, has been ridiculous.

Like, it's something that's always been on my radar because as a leader, that's been part of my leadership, is making sure that I'm understanding how other people can access a space or not and, like, what I'm doing to either block that or facilitate them being able to attend if they want. I'm wondering if that's something that has been your experience, too.

Have you been experiencing any ableism or?

[00:08:55] Rebecca Minor: I think my awareness of it has dramatically increased as I've started to recognize these things about myself and about my clients. I see it so much more. One way I control for that is I work for myself. That frees me up a lot, I think, from probably what I would experience much more of in the workplace. You know, if I was working at a community mental health agency or something where they were like, "we have these expectations of how many people you see in a day and how fast you finish documentation," and all these things. But certainly, and I'm noticing it more and more. And part of that is the unmasking process, too, of realizing, like, "oh wait, I actually have way more sensory issues than I ever realized," and, like, how to accommodate for those.

[00:09:37] Chris Angel Murphy: And something that I've begun to hate, and yes, that's extreme, but I'm gonna say it- is that I feel like every time I talk about unmasking, I have to clarify not the pandemic kind.

[00:09:49] Rebecca Minor: Right.

[00:09:49] Chris Angel Murphy: I'm not hiding myself for other people to accept me. You know, either because of my queerness or especially because of my neurodivergence.

[00:09:58] Rebecca Minor: Absolutely.

[00:09:58] Chris Angel Murphy: Like, trying to fit in.

[00:10:00] Rebecca Minor: Yeah.

[00:10:00] Chris Angel Murphy: So, knowing that you're a parent coach, and a therapist, but also more specifically, a gender specialist -and watching the evolution of that with you and how you choose to share it with people, and some of the hesitations you've had about claiming that, like, yeah.

[00:10:17] Rebecca Minor: Mm-hmm.

[00:10:17] Chris Angel Murphy: Like, I'm curious if you could just elaborate a little bit more on what that means and how you work with people.

[00:10:23] Rebecca Minor: The way that I view what I do as a gender specialist is that I partner with queer and trans youth in their journey of becoming and am a guide to their parents in affirming it. What that looks like on a day-to-day basis is individual, and group therapy sessions with my clients, and then I moved more into this parent coaching space when I realized that there was only so much I could do for young people if they weren't getting the support that they needed at home. And there were so many parents that really wanted to show up for their kid but didn't know how or were having some of their own stuff get in the way. Um, so that's when I kind of pivoted a bit and added that as a service that was available to folks.

[00:11:03] Chris Angel Murphy: Because, you know, of my ADHD brain, my ass while you're talking, I was like, "oh, she provides wraparound services." Cause, like- [both laugh]

[00:11:14] Rebecca Minor: Yeah, I guess I hadn't thought about it that way. Right?

[00:11:16] Chris Angel Murphy: Yeah.

[00:11:17] Rebecca Minor: Um, the days of in-home therapy [Chris Angel laughs] and that kind of social worker over for me, but yes, that's, that's true. One could call this a wraparound service in a way.

[00:11:25] Chris Angel Murphy: It's a unique niche.

[00:11:27] Rebecca Minor: Mm-hmm. It is certainly a niche

[00:11:29] Chris Angel Murphy: Something for everyone in the family. [Rebecca laughs] Yeah.

[00:11:34] Rebecca Minor: Yeah. Cue the music.

[00:11:35] Chris Angel Murphy: We're just working on your marketing now. Anyway. You've been posting lots of silly, sassy, [Chris Angel laughs] and educational reels on your Instagram, [Rebecca laughs] and it looks like you're having lots of fun as you're recording those and posting those, but what's your relationship with social media actually like?

[00:11:55] Rebecca Minor: That's a really good question. The truth is, I am having fun when I make those videos. That is genuine. It really ties in, like I have a long background in theater and performance, so that part of me really has a fun time doing that. And then there is the other side of feeling, like, there is this kind of push to keep feeding the algorithm and keep building, and I, it's something that I'm constantly kind of reassessing and evaluating around, like, what feels most aligned who I am and how I wanna show up, but also what people need and also how I make an impact.

Because the real reason I started kind of [Rebecca laughs] hustling on Instagram was because I wanted to put a book out for parents. And when I tried to do that, the feedback I got was that people didn't know who I was yet. And so until I had a bigger audience, they simply didn't think it would sell enough.

So I was like, "Okay, well I wanna help parents, and I believe in the work that I'm doing, so I need to get myself out there as you know, as, I don't feel comfortable with this terminology, but, you know, thought leadership." [both laugh] Um-

[00:13:06] Chris Angel Murphy: Yeah.

[00:13:08] Rebecca Minor: But some of it is purely just because I think it's hilarious, and I'm sure I crack myself up far more [Rebecca laughs] than other people.

[00:13:15] Chris Angel Murphy: You know what's funny is like I can tell, too, when you're like, "I think I'm funny." [Rebecca laughs] You know, like, I can tell those moments, and I love it cuz I genuinely do think you're really funny. Like,

[00:13:26] Rebecca Minor: Well, thank you.

[00:13:26] Chris Angel Murphy: I eat that shit up. [Rebecca laughs] You're welcome. And so, it's great. And I don't know, as you've been on this journey to growing your platforms and everything, especially Instagram, I just hear like Katy Perry's "Roar" in the background [Rebecca laughs] as your, like, anthem or something.

[00:13:41] Rebecca Minor: I love it. I'll take it.

[00:13:43] Chris Angel Murphy: Well, when you first posted on September 2nd, 2019, so you're like,

[00:13:49] Rebecca Minor: Whoa.

[00:13:50] Chris Angel Murphy: Pretty new.

[00:13:51] Rebecca Minor: Yeah.

[00:13:52] Chris Angel Murphy: Did you have any idea that present-day you'd have over 8,000 followers?

[00:13:58] Rebecca Minor: [Both laugh] No, no. And it's really, really weird even to hear you say that just now. I was like, "wait, I do?" [Rebecca laughs]

[00:14:03] Chris Angel Murphy: Yeah, I just checked. I just opened it cuz I wanted to make sure.

[00:14:07] Rebecca Minor: No, no, no, no, no. When I started it, I was like, "oh, I should probably have a place that's like a, a concentrated kind of resource, almost like a Pinterest board to, like, stick stuff that I thought was cool or that I thought would be helpful to folks. And initially, I was just reposting other things that I saw that I thought would be of benefit, and then really started building from there.

So yeah, it, that's interesting that that's been the timeline. I don't often stop and think about that. The first 5,000 was a real, I mean, the first 1,000 was the worst. [Rebecca laughs]

[00:14:45] Chris Angel Murphy: Yeah.

[00:14:45] Rebecca Minor: Um, cuz it's like, "am I just posting things to the void?" It's certainly gotten easier to, you know, things pick up with more traction. And more than anything, I love the fact that I can collaborate with other people and I can share things from folks. You know the- the opportunity to uplift other people's work is the most important thing to me about having that reach. I don't feel like 8,000 people are here to- because they love me. They're here because they wanna learn something, and they're here to, like, witness all kinds of other people's work that I can, like, wrap in. And so, yeah, I see it much more as a community.

[00:15:26] Chris Angel Murphy: And those are hard to build online and especially just to get engagement.

[00:15:31] Rebecca Minor: Oh, yeah. Well, especially when I talk about what I talk about, like, it's, like, "womp, womp, like, trans kids are dying," and it's like, well, [Rebecca laughs] that's a real bummer. Like, people don't- that's not like an easy like, "ooh, follow," um, [Rebecca laughs] you know?

[00:15:42] Chris Angel Murphy: Yeah.

[00:15:42] Rebecca Minor: Like it's a, it's a bit of a tough sell at times in a niche interest area. Like, I see other therapists who are, like, just sharing kind of general tips or like, "here's a coping skill," and like, I could totally do that and probably have many more followers, but I, I'm not interested.

[00:16:02] Chris Angel Murphy: Some of what you've previously done on your Instagram is define terms for parents and for other folks stumbling across your Instagram, just so that they can be exposed to new language to help, you know, explain our community's different experiences. But, [Chris Angel laughs] an ongoing joke we've had and, you know, something I've been even having a quandary about is just, like, how we may need words to help us explain our experiences and to find community, but also just feels like it's getting out of control sometimes.

There was this point in your timeline that you just kept posting so many that I'd never heard of before, and I was like, "oh my gosh, is this ever going to stop?" It just felt like [Rebecca laughs] this water hose on full blast. I wasn't like upset with you. I was just like, "whoaaaah."

[00:16:57] Rebecca Minor: That's hilarious.

[00:16:57] Chris Angel Murphy: Yeah. Where I get stuck is I don't know how we decide as a community when a definition needs to be expanded or when we just need a new term for something.

[00:17:10] Rebecca Minor: Mmmm.

[00:17:10] Chris Angel Murphy: So, like, yeah. How do you navigate terms and definitions in this space?

[00:17:18] Rebecca Minor: How I navigate them is really that I believe they're only, much like diagnoses, I believe they're only as helpful as they have meaning to the person who holds them.

[00:17:28] Chris Angel Murphy: God, you're such a therapist. [Both laugh] I say that with love, though. I say that with love.

[00:17:34] Rebecca Minor: I know, I know.

[00:17:35] Chris Angel Murphy: There's things I'll say, and people will be like, "oh, you're such a social worker," and I'm like, "I know."

[00:17:39] Rebecca Minor: That's so real, yeah.

If the language makes someone feel like they have a better understanding of who they are or they're connected to a community of other people with similar experiences, then great. If it's this, like, many-syllable, hyper-nuanced word no one's ever heard of- I don't know if it's helping or not.

It's funny that- I know exactly what time and the timeline you're referring to of my posts. Um, and it's because I found this one, I think it was a Tumblr post- surprise, surprise, you know, like uncommon terminology or something.

[00:18:19] Chris Angel Murphy: I think one was, like, fictosexual or something when you like

[00:18:23] Rebecca Minor: Yes

[00:18:23] Chris Angel Murphy: Characters

[00:18:24] Rebecca Minor: Which, that [Rebecca laughs] is one of my most popular blog articles on my website, as well, which is fascinating. I'm like, "why does that get so much traction?"

[00:18:34] Chris Angel Murphy: See, and what's funny is, like, I actually like that one cuz there's absolutely crushes I've had on characters from, like, books or shows or whatever, and it means nothing. Nothing is gonna come of it. I'm not trying to- I'm sure someone here in the United States will try to figure out how to marry a character in a book or something, because-

[00:18:54] Rebecca Minor: Yep.

[00:18:54] Chris Angel Murphy: It just feels very on-brand [Chris Angel laughs] for us, somehow.

[00:18:57] Rebecca Minor: Well, you know that that's what the viral story happened about a man in japan.

[00:19:01] Chris Angel Murphy: That's right. Oh my gosh. I know. I, I can't believe it didn't happen here first.

[00:19:05] Rebecca Minor: I know. Yeah. He, he married a hologram.

[00:19:08] Chris Angel Murphy: That's what it was. Yes. A hologram.

[00:19:11] Rebecca Minor: Yeah. It's wild.

[00:19:13] Chris Angel Murphy: But then, didn't something happen to the hologram?

[00:19:14] Rebecca Minor: Yes, and then raised-

[00:19:15] Chris Angel Murphy: Now he's like widowed, I guess?

[00:19:17] Rebecca Minor: The big question. Right, exactly. Of, like, what is real and what isn't. And like if, if your [Rebecca laughs] hologram dies, or the computer crashes, or the robot you're in love with, you know, like- [Rebecca laughs] how do we navigate what that relationship looks like in practice?

So on the flip side of the language being a, an important and meaningful thing for folks, I think it can also be a really distancing thing, and it can cause people who are not in the community to feel like, "ugh. You people and your words [Rebecca laughs], I'm never gonna get a hang of all of this, and you're just like making this shit up."

[00:19:56] Chris Angel Murphy: Well, you know, this morning I was having a conversation with a client. I was showing them the presentation ahead of the actual event, so I can be like, "here's what you're getting,” you know, “is this good? Are we good? Cool." [Rebecca laughs] And one of the things I highlighted specifically is that I no longer define terms. Especially if I'm doing, like, an LGBTQ+ 101 and I say instead, "here, like, go to PFLAG National's glossary; here's a whole list of them. There's a lot of great nuance. It's a, you know, really long list." And, you know, what you can do is just- when someone shares a term with you like, "Hey, I'm asexual, and I just wanted to share that with you."- I mean, first, I always say like, "thank the person, because no one owes you their disclosure."

[00:20:50] Rebecca Minor: Mm-hmm.

[00:20:50] Chris Angel Murphy: And the other piece of that is, you could ask them, and I especially train therapists to do this- I train them to say, "what does that mean to you?"

[00:21:02] Rebecca Minor: Always.

[00:21:02] Chris Angel Murphy: Yeah. Because the difference is like if I say, "oh, I'm not familiar with that,” you know, “can you explain it to me?" That's like Google, and that doesn't feel inviting. Then it feels like I'm trying to speak on behalf of an entire community, which I can't possibly do, but I can talk about my experience.

And because of like intersectionality of age, geographical location, all these other things, even if you surveyed 50 lesbians, what it means for them to be a lesbian, you might see some general themes, but some people may focus on different aspects of it. Or now, this is what broke my brain, there's been an update to the lesbian definition that it now also includes non-men. And for me,

[00:21:45] Rebecca Minor: Yes.

[00:21:45] Chris Angel Murphy: That should have been a new term. And I say that as a former lesbian. [Chris Angel laughs]

[00:21:49] Rebecca Minor: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

[00:21:50] Chris Angel Murphy: -in my timeline.

[00:21:51] Rebecca Minor: Mm-hmm. And you were a pretty big deal lesbian, too.

[00:21:55] Chris Angel Murphy: Oh my God

[00:21:55] Rebecca Minor: that was- [Rebecca laughs]

[00:21:56] Chris Angel Murphy: I know. Well, when you run, I don't know, I'm just gonna say this now. I ran something called The Lesbian Mafia. Yes, it's true. Yes, it was real. Yes, it was a lot of drama. No regrets. [Rebecca laughs] I was like, it was very inappropriate, but it's fine. We, we will talk about that some other day. [Rebecca laughs] But, but that aside, you know, and it's not for me to decide, especially since I'm not part of that community anymore, but it was part of my timeline and my history, and I don't know, like, when I think of the multisexual words that are out there, the terms like "bi," "pan," to me, this is just me- the nuance between some of them is so minuscule. I feel like-

[00:22:34] Rebecca Minor: Yes

[00:22:34] Chris Angel Murphy: it could have just been bisexual and "generally this is what it means, but this is how I further explain it for myself" because-

[00:22:42] Rebecca Minor: Mm-hmm

[00:22:43] Chris Angel Murphy: Some people take bi to mean, like, my gender and other genders. Some people mean it to be like men and women exclusively, or you know, whatever. That's why I'm like, well then, why did lesbian get this in- again, my eyes, this huge expansion, but not, like, bi. And I think part of that's also like the PR of the bisexual community.

[00:23:05] Rebecca Minor: Certainly.

[00:23:06] Chris Angel Murphy: You know, with within and without, like, without, oh my God. Within and outside of, [both laugh]

[00:23:11] Rebecca Minor: outside of, yeah-

[00:23:12] Chris Angel Murphy: the LGBTQ+ community, so, yeah.

[00:23:14] Rebecca Minor: Yeah, and I think that- that's the thing that then trips people up in and [Rebecca laughs] within and out [both laugh] of the community. I'm like, now I can't think of anything but without. Um,-

[00:23:26] Chris Angel Murphy: You're welcome. [both laugh]

[00:23:27] Rebecca Minor: That, right? But I mean, like, I've had this conversation with my mom, I don't even know how many times. She's like, "okay, help me one more time."

[00:23:36] Chris Angel Murphy: Yeah.

[00:23:37] Rebecca Minor: "What's the difference between bisexual and queer." Or like what, you know, queer is a big one, right? And queer comes up all the time, and everyone's definition's gonna be different.

[00:23:48] Chris Angel Murphy: Yep.

[00:23:49] Rebecca Minor: People get aggravated, right? And I'm sure this happens to you in trainings too, when they're like, "Okay, can you define nonbinary?" and I'm like, well, I can give you a general sense, [Rebecca laughs] um, of what that means. And every single nonbinary person you talk to is gonna have a slightly different variation of that. And people don't like that.

[00:24:08] Chris Angel Murphy: No! I feel like most of our training and educating people is just coming with like 20 million disclaimers and like also, "well, it could be this, and it could be that." And I think there's a lot of great freedom in it, but especially as folks, and I, I say this, too, when I was first starting out and recognizing I was part of the community, it was overwhelming. And we didn't near the amount of-

[00:24:29] Rebecca Minor: No.

[00:24:30] Chris Angel Murphy: Language and everything we do today.

[00:24:32] Rebecca Minor: No.

[00:24:32] Chris Angel Murphy: And so it's just, like, I feel grateful. I think I was at a good cutoff, if you will, of, you know, being able to, you know, have this as a special interest number one. So, it's been easier to keep up with. But also, yeah, to not just like have this even bigger pool that I'm diving into that can be really overwhelming and intimidating.

[00:24:53] Rebecca Minor: Absolutely. And that's where ultimately, I see this work as being about being comfortable with uncertainty. That's what we're inviting people to do, [Rebecca laughs] and not everybody wants to accept the invitation.

[00:25:04] Chris Angel Murphy: Just say the therapist version. Just get it outta your system. I know it's sitting there.

[00:25:07] Rebecca Minor: What?

[00:25:08] Chris Angel Murphy: Sit in the discomfort, or I don't know, [Rebecca laughs] some bullshit. Just say it.

[00:25:12] Rebecca Minor: [Chris Angel laughs] I wasn't even gonna say that. I wasn't. [both laugh]

[00:25:15] Chris Angel Murphy: You were trying to tame it. I got you [both laugh]. Well, that all said, even with everything we just said, I'm curious, are there any specific, like, LGBTQ+ specific terms you really like, even if maybe you don't personally identify with them and maybe just like them as a general concept?

I think I love queer the most.

[00:25:34] Rebecca Minor: Me, too.

[00:25:34] Chris Angel Murphy: Now it's probably neuroqueer, even though it's like hybrid. But, like, you're speaking to, it just allows a lot of freedom that, like, I'm just doing life differently.

[00:25:46] Rebecca Minor: Absolutely. And you can queer anything.

[00:25:48] Chris Angel Murphy: Yeah. Sexuality-wise, like- in several ways. And I, I'm just gonna say as a side note, I know that there's been a lot of bad PR also for saying that we have a "lifestyle."

When you look up the definition, it's on point. Like, to say someone has a "gay lifestyle," again, it can just like definitions, it can look differently for everyone. But, like, I don't wanna deny that we have a queer lifestyle that, you know, it can be really important to us like I know it is for me.

[00:26:17] Rebecca Minor: Mm-hmm. What do you see as a queer lifestyle? Wait, am I allowed to ask you questions? [Rebecca laughs]

[00:26:22] Chris Angel Murphy: Sure. We're in a conversation. Why not? Yeah. Especially after talking to Lena from @bopolena on Instagram.

[00:26:29] Rebecca Minor: Yeah. Who everyone should follow.

[00:26:32] Chris Angel Murphy: Yes. Amazing. Amazing artwork. They're incredible.

[00:26:36] Rebecca Minor: Incredible.

[00:26:36] Chris Angel Murphy: Yeah.

[00:26:37] Rebecca Minor: Yeah.

[00:26:37] Chris Angel Murphy: Um, very expansive also in the way that they depict different things, which I appreciate. There's a lot of diversity.

[00:26:43] Rebecca Minor: Mm-hmm.

[00:26:44] Chris Angel Murphy: And not like in a forced, tokenizing way or anything. It's very casual.

[00:26:47] Rebecca Minor: No. Right.

[00:26:47] Chris Angel Murphy: Yeah.

[00:26:48] Rebecca Minor: Yeah.

[00:26:48] Chris Angel Murphy: So, I've been talking lately about how I just see queerness and the lifestyle of queerness as this buffet. You have all these options available to you, and you can try them or not, you know, and try something out and decide it's not for you, like maybe polyamory or open relationships or whatever, but-

[00:27:08] Rebecca Minor: Mm-hmm.

[00:27:09] Chris Angel Murphy: the option is there. And so just having that freedom and being able to live in that freedom and also recognizing that things can shift across my lifetime; that's what I love, and that's how I view the queer lifestyle.

[00:27:21] Rebecca Minor: Yeah.

[00:27:21] Chris Angel Murphy: And we, [Chris Angel laughs] we talked about this a little bit as friends, so let's just like go here, too. But Bert and Ernie, historically-

[00:27:29] Rebecca Minor: Oh, yes.

[00:27:29] Chris Angel Murphy: The queer community has, like, latched onto them as, like this queer-coded couple

[00:27:36] Rebecca Minor: Mm-hmm.

[00:27:36] Chris Angel Murphy: That obviously have to be together even though they have separate beds and stuff and and whatever. But like, you know, with their closeness and everything, and you know, we just need the positive representation.

So, of course we'd wanna latch onto that. However, I have recently evolved because something I also don't share a lot is that I am also under the ace umbrella and definitely claim demisexual as one of my orientations.

[00:28:01] Rebecca Minor: Mm-hmm.

[00:28:01] Chris Angel Murphy: Because I've been leaning more into that and learning more about the ace community broadly, it's helped me to understand, again, especially in terms of lifestyle- that we don't have to do everything from this heteronormative perspective. That like, a friendship is at the bottom, and romantic and sexual relationships are at the top.

[00:28:22] Rebecca Minor: Right.

[00:28:22] Chris Angel Murphy: Like, there doesn't need to be this hierarchy, and that friendships can be just as important.

[00:28:28] Rebecca Minor: Right.

[00:28:28] Chris Angel Murphy: Yeah. So to me now, I've decided to say, “you know what?” Like, “they've got a queer lifestyle going. How amazing is it that maybe they're best friends who have chosen to live together and do life differently?”

[00:28:41] Rebecca Minor: You mean Bert and Ernie?

[00:28:42] Chris Angel Murphy: Yeah. Yes.

[00:28:43] Rebecca Minor: Yeah.

[00:28:43] Chris Angel Murphy: Thank you for bringing it back to that. Yes. That's what I was meaning. But it's easier for me to see, “oh yeah, I could just buy a house with my best friend. We can have a garden,”

[00:28:53] Rebecca Minor: Imagine.

[00:28:53] Chris Angel Murphy: “And be really happy. And that's like a really cool thing.”

[00:28:58] Rebecca Minor: Yeah. I loved when you sent me that cuz I was like, "oh wow." I mean, and I had shared with you like I wrote a paper in college for one of my queer theory courses on Bert and Ernie's relationship. Absolutely coded it as queer. I think, again, didn't have the language at that time, right? It was probably 2007, 2008- for the nuance of what some of that could have looked like or could be. I think it's an interesting take.

I think the word "lifestyle," unfortunately, has a connotation with sex that people automatically assume as opposed to just like how one goes through their day or, like, who you might spend time with.

I think probably because of, like, swinging and/or just the association with promiscuity and gayness or queerness in general. Um, I just think the word "lifestyle" has some interesting connotations or history. But you said when you look it up, it's not that.

[00:29:57] Chris Angel Murphy: Yeah, that's the thing. It's just so stigmatized, and so my selfish hope and wish is that we as a community can just reclaim that there is a queer lifestyle.

Because some of the definitions I've read are- one of them is, "the typical way of life of an individual group or culture."

[00:30:14] Rebecca Minor: Mm-hmm.

[00:30:15] Chris Angel Murphy: And another one is "the way in which a person or group lives."

[00:30:19] Rebecca Minor: Yeah.

[00:30:19] Chris Angel Murphy: To me, I'm like, yeah, that, that makes a lot of sense. So it's like, to me, it's just like the bisexuality thing all over again. It's just it's so stigmatized

[00:30:26] Rebecca Minor: Right.

[00:30:26] Chris Angel Murphy: But if we can just reclaim it, cuz it's been used against us as something meant to be ugly. But there's lots of different lifestyles.

[00:30:34] Rebecca Minor: Sure.

[00:30:35] Chris Angel Murphy: That have different names and everything; they could be sexual. And this is, like, really loaded, so I'm gonna choose to say this carefully, but there's also people who quote-unquote, have a "healthy lifestyle."

I don't even want to touch that one.

[00:30:47] Rebecca Minor: Mm-hmm.

[00:30:47] Chris Angel Murphy: Cuz that's-

[00:30:48] Rebecca Minor: Mm-hmm.

[00:30:48] Chris Angel Murphy: Just-

[00:30:48] Rebecca Minor: Mm-hmm.

[00:30:49] Chris Angel Murphy: A whole thing. But, it's one we're familiar with, right?

[00:30:52] Rebecca Minor: Absolutely.

[00:30:53] Chris Angel Murphy: Doesn't necessarily have anything to do with sexuality or anything. Or could, but-

[00:30:58] Rebecca Minor: That's a good point.

[00:30:59] Chris Angel Murphy: That's typically how we view it. Yeah. So as a lovely pivot, in our friendship, we've talked a lot about you wanting to get pregnant in the near future. And it's brought up a lot of conversations.

But more specifically related to the work that you do, you've been thinking about all sorts of things, like should you explore gender creative parenting? And what should you do for name and pronouns?

Where are you with that right now? And what kind of conversations are you having with people in your life?

[00:31:31] Rebecca Minor: I had a conversation with my mom who very, very sweetly, um, and with support was like, "are you gonna, like, only dress your baby in beige [Chris Angel laughs] and like, we're only gonna call it neutral everything and everything?" Like, it's so funny to me that people see [Rebecca laughs] gender-creative parenting or, like, having any kind of neutrality as meaning that your child's life will have [Rebecca laughs] no color or joy.

[00:31:58] Chris Angel Murphy: it's like the- the polar opposite. When I think of gender-creative parenting, I just think of excitement and joy and bright colors.

[00:32:07] Rebecca Minor: Yes.

[00:32:07] Chris Angel Murphy: And options. Like, it's

[00:32:08] Rebecca Minor: And like coloring outside the lines. Yes. So we had a good laugh. I was like, "no, mom." She's following my Instagram. She's paying attention. She's like, I'm, "you know, I'm reading. I'm learning a lot."

[00:32:17] Chris Angel Murphy: Way to go, mom.

[00:32:19] Rebecca Minor: Oh, yeah. That raises questions for me and, and people often bring those questions to me because they see me as being like [Rebecca laughs] the anti-gender reveal person, and I am anti-gender reveals. Again, it's that assumption that it's like genderless as opposed to gender full. And Kyl Myers talks about that, a great quote about that language exactly, of like, it doesn't have to be about reducing or minimizing. It's about giving kids options and choice.

And my thinking at this point, and people, of course, have differing opinions about this; I am all for folks who wanna do the "they/them" pronouns for their baby. I think where I am currently is that I will probably use multiple pronouns of whatever we think makes the most sense at the time, plus “they,” and see how that goes. And if at any point that doesn't feel right or our child is able to communicate that that's not what they want, then obviously, we would switch things up.

But I think we can't entirely prevent how gendered our world is.

[00:33:31] Chris Angel Murphy: Yeah.

[00:33:32] Rebecca Minor: And frankly, I don't wanna do the emotional labor every time I go to the grocery store. Of like, "ah, is that a boy?" [Rebecca laughs] Of being like, "let me explain this to you," cuz it's what I do all day for my job, too. [Rebecca laughs]

[00:33:43] Chris Angel Murphy: Right. You're not walking around with your Venmo going, [Rebecca laughs] "well, pay me $5, and I'll tell you."

[00:33:47] Rebecca Minor: Right? I mean, if that was the case, maybe, but- [both laugh]

[00:33:50] Chris Angel Murphy: We can try that as a concept.

[00:33:51] Rebecca Minor: Um, we could. But yeah, I think my hope as I kind of go through this process is to also invite providers along with me on learning some of this stuff. I know I was telling you I had an appointment, um, a couple of weeks ago with what's considered a maternal psychiatric whatever, and they could just call it reproductive or any other neutral word, but it's still maternal. Um.

[00:34:16] Chris Angel Murphy: But you're erasing women! Huuaaah! [Chris Angel laughs]

[00:34:19] Rebecca Minor: Well, right. And that's the thing, right? And- and this is the big sticking point for a lot of folks. And their paperwork automatically used she/her pronouns throughout, assuming that that's what the patient would be using. And had a, you know, family history chart that blocked the columns of any possibility that my grandfather or brother or whomever could have had any kind of reproductive history that was worth noting.

[00:34:46] Chris Angel Murphy: Right.

[00:34:47] Rebecca Minor: And so, you know, naturally, as I am want to do, I edited the forms, um. [Rebecca laughs]

[00:34:53] Chris Angel Murphy: Yes!

[00:34:55] Rebecca Minor: Which I'm like, "you're welcome for the free-” [Rebecca laughs]

[00:34:58] Chris Angel Murphy: Labor

[00:34:58] Rebecca Minor: “Service.”

[00:34:59] Chris Angel Murphy: Mm-hmm.

[00:35:00] Rebecca Minor: But, you know, I crossed off that and was like, "I have a sibling. You can't assume that these things aren't relevant." So, it's definitely interesting. I'm seeing a lot of the like "mama" vibe that, you know, I just think doesn't fit for everybody.

So, it's gonna be a wild ride.

[00:35:19] Chris Angel Murphy: For those interested in learning more about Dr. Kyl Myers, we actually had a really great episode in the first season of Allyship is a Verb, so check that out. Also talks a lot about, like, how they navigated and how they continue to navigate, like, people asking, you know, these super invasive questions. And, like, the pushback of, "won't this be confusing for the kid?" and stuff. So, listen to that.

Another thought was- I had a friend who came to me and has now had two kids. And I don't know, I- I love her so much because she's, and I know she'd be fine with me saying this, and I'm not gonna use any personal identifying information, but she's, you know, a cishet woman. And she's just so disappointed that her kids- [both laugh] she has a son and a daughter, and she's just so disappointed that they're just like the most hetero, [Rebecca laughs] like, cis-normative. She was just, like, really hoping for some queer babies, and it just didn't happen.

[00:36:16] Rebecca Minor: Mm-hmm.

[00:36:16] Chris Angel Murphy: There's still hope.

[00:36:17] Rebecca Minor: Mm-hmm.

[00:36:17] Chris Angel Murphy: There's still hope, but-

[00:36:18] Rebecca Minor: There's still hope.

[00:36:19] Chris Angel Murphy: I just, I love the level of allyship there that, like, she's just like, "they're just so boring." [Chris Angel laughs] Oh my God.

[00:36:24] Rebecca Minor: Right. I, yeah. I was talking to a friend yesterday who was like, "I mean, I'm trying to give my kid other options, but he just really likes trucks. Like, is that bad?" And I was like, no, it's okay."

[00:36:34] Chris Angel Murphy: That's amazing.

[00:36:34] Rebecca Minor: Like, if he likes trucks, like rock on. That's totally fine.

[00:36:38] Chris Angel Murphy: Exactly. But that's why we had to have a conversation because, you know, she wanted to do the right thing. And so because she wasn't doing gender-creative parenting with her kids, and I don't even know if we knew it was an option at that point or something. I don't think it was on my radar yet. What we came up with was a plan for, "Okay, if I am announcing the birth of this child, what's the best, most inclusive way I can do it?" And so we came up. "Here's my daughter, disclaimer, unless she tells us otherwise."

[00:37:10] Rebecca Minor: Right. [Rebecca laughs]

[00:37:10] Chris Angel Murphy: And I liked that.

[00:37:11] Rebecca Minor: Until further notice. [Rebecca laughs]

[00:37:13] Chris Angel Murphy: Yeah, that's great. You're holding space for the fact that things may change. So if you're, you know, someone listening and you're not on board with the whole gender creative parenting thing- and that's fine. And there's other ways to do it, too. You don't have to give your kid a gender-neutral name. You don't have to default they/them pronouns.

There's other ways to do it. Just to let them know their options and give them that exploration. It doesn't, you know, have to be to the lengths that some other folks go through. And there's nothing wrong with that, either. But yeah, just being able to hold space that things can change.

[00:37:44] Rebecca Minor: Yeah.

[00:37:45] Chris Angel Murphy: And it gives it, it's like a teaching moment for other people, too.

[00:37:48] Rebecca Minor: Absolutely, and I have so much respect for folks who, who really do go full in the they/them pronouns and have to go through that process every time they introduce their child, or themselves, or talk about it. Because people do have tons of questions, and they're often not always appropriate and quite invasive.

It is a big task. Um, and so in many ways, like they're educators, and that's really important. It's gonna open up people's eyes to all kinds of things that they maybe otherwise wouldn't have been exposed to, but it is a lot of effort. I think everyone has to decide for themselves what feels best for them and their families.

Um, yeah. It's gonna be something to explore as we go, for sure.

[00:38:35] Chris Angel Murphy: How do you think we build supportive environments and communities around neurodivergence? That's a big question.

[00:38:45] Rebecca Minor: Oh, my goodness. Yeah. I'm like, how long do we have? [both laugh]

[00:38:49] Chris Angel Murphy: Not very. Yeah.

[00:38:54] Rebecca Minor: Something that I think has been really incredible has been this kind of surge of people sharing from lived experience and people then being able to see that like reflected in themselves. Of like, "oh my God, I do that thing, too." And I think that's incredibly healing and important. Part of that community and support needs to be around- um, hmm. I'm looking for a different word from normalizing.

[00:39:22] Chris Angel Murphy: Normalizing's is a pretty good one.

[00:39:24] Rebecca Minor: Yeah. Okay. Well, it has the word "normal" in it, which is-

[00:39:27] Chris Angel Murphy: I know.

[00:39:27] Rebecca Minor: You know, questionable, but here we go. Stuck in the semantics again.

[00:39:30] Chris Angel Murphy: Well, it's also because, you know, there's folks who are anti-pronouns that are like, "my pronouns are nor/mal," and things like that, so it's just-

[00:39:37] Rebecca Minor: Oh, true. Yes.

[00:39:39] Chris Angel Murphy: Bleh..

[00:39:39] Rebecca Minor: [Rebecca laughs] Blueh.

[00:39:41] Chris Angel Murphy: Another word that's getting ruined for us.

[00:39:42] Rebecca Minor: But yeah, I think healing doesn't happen in isolation. Having community where people, I know, you're smiling at me like, "okay, therapist." [Chris Angel laughs]

[00:39:51] Chris Angel Murphy: I, I, I wasn't gonna interrupt you.

[00:39:53] Rebecca Minor: You were, you were doing it, um-

[00:39:55] Chris Angel Murphy: With my eyes-

[00:39:56] Rebecca Minor: But-

[00:39:56] Chris Angel Murphy: Yeah.

[00:39:57] Rebecca Minor: Yes, you were, you were smizing. [both laughing]

Um, so, but, having opportunities for people to see that, like, there are other neurodivergent people around them who are [Rebecca laughs] moving through the world and holding different positions, and jobs, and ways of engaging that, like, it's all still possible. Because I think for some people, it can feel really daunting. But for a lot of folks, it feels like, "oh my God, that's the puzzle piece that's been under the couch for the last 20 years that I didn't even know I was missing." And then I think also, just the sensory piece of being aware of- of what people's needs might be.

Some of that is that, like, folks don't even know what they need. So like, giving people options even of, like, [Rebecca laughs] if we have a meeting where it's like if you, you know, you can be onscreen or offscreen if, like being onscreen all the time doesn't work for you. Um, and creating those options, not just for the identified person who's neurodivergent, but for everybody in the group, or community, or wherever it is to be able to see like, "oh yeah, I actually feel better when I'm able to stand up and move around." Or "I can concentrate more when I have something to fidget with." And having that be okay.

[00:41:14] Chris Angel Murphy: Exactly, yeah. I'd rather someone just allow me the self-agency of turning off my camera and fidgeting and stuff and doing whatever I need to do in private to stay, like, in the meeting or, or whatever. Versus like having to make a big deal out of it or have someone point it out or, or especially- and I know this comes up a lot. I turn the camera back on. "Well, oh, look who decided to join us today?" Like, don't do stuff like that.

[00:41:40] Rebecca Minor: Right. Absolutely.

[00:41:41] Chris Angel Murphy: It, it's not good.

[00:41:42] Rebecca Minor: Absolutely.

[00:41:43] Chris Angel Murphy: Like, I get, you're trying to acknowledge there's been this change and, you know, you're gonna scare me off from doing it again, cuz you're not making it a positive, affirming experience for me. If you wanted to, you could just simply say, "oh hey, welcome back," or something. Or like not even acknowledge it at all. Like, why do we even need to go there?

[00:42:02] Rebecca Minor: We don't.

[00:42:03] Chris Angel Murphy: Of the times I've heard you call yourself “femme,” be it because you're introducing yourself or something, there's just something- there's a different energy about you when you really tap into that. It feels like it really is coming from a place of pride, and I'm not saying you don't feel that way about your other identities. But there is something different to when you talk about being femme. So I'm wondering how has, for you, the concept of "femme" evolved over time? And what do you think are some of the biggest challenges facing femme individuals in today's society?

[00:42:42] Rebecca Minor: Oh my God, that's a really big question, also.

[00:42:43] Chris Angel Murphy: Yeah. I'm not making this easy for you.

[00:42:45] Rebecca Minor: These are no softball questions.

[00:42:46] Chris Angel Murphy: But you've got it. You like-

[00:42:47] Rebecca Minor: oh, totally.

[00:42:48] Chris Angel Murphy: Yeah. [Chris Angel laughs]

[00:42:49] Rebecca Minor: I might need you to repeat it at some point.

[00:42:50] Chris Angel Murphy: Sure.

[00:42:51] Rebecca Minor: Cause my brain might take us on a journey. But first of all, thank you for noticing that. I think it's probably because it finally feels like the closest thing that feels right.

In terms of how that's evolved, I think it's been kind of messy. As someone who calls themselves a gender specialist, to constantly be questioning and exploring my own relationship to gender is both important and daunting. [Rebecca laughs] And so there have been moments where I'm like, "wait, am I this? Am I that? Like, is it the simple?"

[00:43:26] Chris Angel Murphy: Yeah, especially when you talked about cisgender.

[00:43:29] Rebecca Minor: So, all of this feels risky to talk about, which is interesting. In that, like, I know there are people who are gonna have feelings about [Rebecca laughs] whatever I say about it. The idea that we teach people that transness means that their gender is different than their sex assigned at birth doesn't really make sense. You talked about that in another episode, right? [Chris Angel laughs]

[00:43:52] Chris Angel Murphy: I fucking hate it, but yes. [Rebecca laughs]

[00:43:53] Rebecca Minor: And yeah, so cisgender to me is, like, so what? It means that my gender is aligned in a way that works with the assumed expectations of how I present my gender?

[00:44:08] Chris Angel Murphy: Which is why I also hate cisgender. Just so people know, I hate them equally cuz, as a concept, I don't think it works.

[00:44:14] Rebecca Minor: Right.

[00:44:15] Chris Angel Murphy: As a way to try to not hate trans and cis as the concepts they currently are, I've been trying to like retool them in my head. And I have to say; I don't know how to make them not a binary.

[00:44:31] Rebecca Minor: Well, that's where I get stuck.

[00:44:32] Chris Angel Murphy: Yeah. I don't know how to make that a spectrum.

[00:44:37] Rebecca Minor: Yeah.

[00:44:37] Chris Angel Murphy: I've jokingly said for my friends who don't deny that they're cisgender but also use, you know, the nonbinary umbrella or an identity that falls under that as, like, an expansion pack of sorts.

[00:44:50] Rebecca Minor: Mm-hmm.

[00:44:51] Chris Angel Murphy: I joke, "what, are they cis plus? Are they cis spicy?" [Rebecca laughs] I don't fucking know. Like,

[00:44:56] Rebecca Minor: Right. [Rebecca laughs]

[00:44:56] Chris Angel Murphy: And we don't need a new word. [both laughing] You know how I feel about this.

[00:45:00] Rebecca Minor: Absolutely.

[00:45:01] Chris Angel Murphy: Again, I just can't get out of cis and trans being a binary. I, I have no other way of seeing it.

[00:45:08] Rebecca Minor: Yeah. It's comforting to me to hear you talk about it too, because I- when I have these thoughts, I'm then like, "oh shit. I can't tell anybody that," you know [Rebecca laughs] when there are so many trans people who feel really connected to that identity and also feel that they've been persecuted in many ways because of that identity. I don't want to take that away from anybody.

[00:45:28] Chris Angel Murphy: Right. We've had ancestors who have died for us to have the privilege of this language and stuff.

[00:45:33] Rebecca Minor: Absolutely. So, it's so complicated.

[00:45:35] Chris Angel Murphy: It's like a gift, right? I don't have to accept it, and so I can appreciate and acknowledge it. That's part of our evolution of how we talk about these things.

[00:45:42] Rebecca Minor: Mm-hmm.

[00:45:43] Chris Angel Murphy: And I can also critique it and say that for someone like me, where this isn't fitting anymore, and it doesn't make sense to me anymore, and I don't know that it ever really did- I need something more evolved to really-

[00:45:55] Rebecca Minor: Yes.

[00:45:55] Chris Angel Murphy: Like, encapture that experience.

[00:45:58] Rebecca Minor: And so that's where femme to me just kind of clicks in a way where I'm like, yeah, but it also is in relationship with queerness.

[00:46:06] Chris Angel Murphy: Anyone can tap into that energy.

[00:46:09] Rebecca Minor: Yeah.

[00:46:09] Chris Angel Murphy: If that resonates.

[00:46:11] Rebecca Minor: That's why I like it. Um, cuz much like queerness, it feels kind of so much more expansive and allows for different iterations of what that looks like.

[00:46:19] Chris Angel Murphy: And I'm gonna ask you first, do you think “masc” or “masculine” has the same energy?

[00:46:24] Rebecca Minor: No. [Rebecca laughs]

[00:46:25] Chris Angel Murphy: Yeah, it's weird cause I immediately think of toxic masculinity.

[00:46:30] Rebecca Minor: Ahhhh. [sighs]

[00:46:30] Chris Angel Murphy: It's so loud-

[00:46:31] Rebecca Minor: Right.

[00:46:31] Chris Angel Murphy: Currently-

[00:46:32] Rebecca Minor: Mm-hmm.

[00:46:33] Chris Angel Murphy: That, that's what I think of as the default.

[00:46:36] Rebecca Minor: Which is sad.

[00:46:37] Chris Angel Murphy: Like, how do you get a healthy masculinity going? Like, a soft masculinity or-

[00:46:42] Rebecca Minor: Yeah. And I love a soft masc. Um . . [both laughing]

[00:46:48] Chris Angel Murphy: Yeah. We're just leaving it at that.

[00:46:50] Rebecca Minor: I'm gonna take us a little bit somewhere else, also, which is that part of why I like femme is that I see it as a more empowered version of saying “woman.” The language of “woman” and how we define that also has a lot of negative connotations. I was just blown away when I did the gender identity challenge of women's responses of like, "I know I'm a woman because of the ways in which I've been oppressed." You know, "I've been assaulted, or experienced being talked over, and looked past for different opportunities” and all these things," that I was like, "whoa, whoa, whoa. Like, this is a bummer." [Rebecca laughs]

[00:47:30] Chris Angel Murphy: Well, so those not familiar with it, can you tell us more about that challenge?

[00:47:35] Rebecca Minor: Absolutely. I made a post; gosh, it's probably been a couple of years now. That was inspired by a post from the account transgender together. I asked people to define their gender and then explain how they know they are that gender without using gendered terminology or anatomical language.

So you can't say, "I know I'm a man because I have whatever body part," or "I know I'm a woman because I'm one of the girls." The overwhelming response from people was like, "this is really hard." [Rebecca laughs]

[00:48:09] Chris Angel Murphy: Yeah.

[00:48:09] Rebecca Minor: Which was exactly the point. Well, that was the point and also that most folks came to the kind of conclusion that they were like, "I just know," which, to me, is a teachable moment of like, "well, if we're gonna accept that answer from cis folks, then we better accept that answer from everybody. Right?" Um, and we need to stop questioning when people are in transition of like, "how long have you known? When did you know? Is it been since you were five years old?" as if that somehow legitimizes someone's identity.

Most folks don't know why, and I love these questions. It's just this recognition of people starting to unpack that, like, we've been handed these labels and categories and often don't think much about them. Or haven't been, you know, in spaces where they've ever been questioned.

[00:49:00] Chris Angel Murphy: I've struggled a lot with “femme” as a concept or just even “femininity,” and I, I do think those are different, but when I medically transitioned, it got a lot easier for me to tap into femme parts of myself or femininity, because it wasn't like the stick I was being measured by anymore. You know, whereas before, it was like how very “unladylike” I was and how bad that was, and a lot of like trying to force me into this gender box that didn't fit.

But now I feel a lot more comfortable exploring that and just, I don't know. Like, more than anything, I just want people to see me as Chris Angel and not try to put me in any sort of gender box or have any sort of, like expectations for me when it comes to how I perform my-

[00:49:46] Rebecca Minor: Mm-hmm.

[00:49:46] Chris Angel Murphy: Gender or sexuality or anything.

[00:49:49] Rebecca Minor: I guess I'm curious how you- what you see is the difference between femme and femininity? I- cuz I agree there is a difference. I'm just curious.

[00:49:55] Chris Angel Murphy: Femme feels more like a core energy that someone is tapping into. And I think the way I've internalized femininity, and again, this is all just outta my butt right now- [Chris Angel laughs]

[00:50:08] Rebecca Minor: Mm-hmm.

[00:50:09] Chris Angel Murphy: Um, I feel like femininity is maybe more superficial, more outward-appearing. Like, maybe how I choose to express myself with clothing, nails, makeup, things like that. I think that's how I've internalized- internalized it, but I, I haven't, like, looked up definitions for the two of those to see if I'm onto something. It's just, again, how I've internalized it.

[00:50:34] Rebecca Minor: No, I, I think I would, I would say something similar.

[00:50:36] Chris Angel Murphy: Well, hot damn.

Something that's been interesting is just, like, watching the way that, again, you take on femme energy in your own way- has just been really great for me because if I had to box you, which I don't want to, but if I had to, I'd also consider you more of like a power femme. And the only thing I mean-

[00:50:54] Rebecca Minor: Thank you. [Rebecca laughs]

[00:50:54] Chris Angel Murphy: By that really is- you're welcome. What I really mean about that is just, like, you've really grown into- into yourself, and you just have this, like, confidence and radiance about you that I think feels almost like going against the grain or something. Just thinking about the patriarchy and, and on all of that, and yeah. So, I don't know, and I'm not saying it's because you're like tapping into masculinity or masculine energy or anything like that. It's, it's you're femme, it's just like power femme. I don't know, femme on steroids. I don't know. There's something there.

[00:51:25] Rebecca Minor: I'm into it. I like power femme.

[00:51:27] Chris Angel Murphy: Yeah. And not that you can't have like softness and everything about you, too, or whatever, and I think that can be for any of, you know, again, the energies that we're putting out there. But...

[00:51:36] Rebecca Minor: Absolutely.

[00:51:37] Chris Angel Murphy: It's been really cool to witness in you.

[00:51:40] Rebecca Minor: Thank you.

[00:51:40] Chris Angel Murphy: You're welcome.

[00:51:42] Rebecca Minor: [Rebecca laughs] It makes me think of, um, when I was living in an RV, it requires driving a very large pickup truck. And so I went to get my haircut. I showed up in my giant pickup truck to meet this stylist who I'd never met before. We had a great conversation, and, actually, it was a really affirming experience. She was one of the first people who, like, didn't know much about my life otherwise, and so she just assumed that I was in a relationship with someone who was a woman or nonbinary. And [Rebecca laughs] was like truly blown away and disappointed, [Rebecca laughs] um, when when I- when she found out I was married to a man. [Chris Angel laughs] But, she was like, "oh my God, I, like, love your whole vibe, and I just feel like you're giving me this energy that's, like, 'truck lady.'" [Rebecca laughs]

And I was like, "oh, truck lady. Okay. Like, I get that. I feel that." [Rebecca laughs] Like, I never thought I would be a truck lady. [Chris Angel laughs] But there's that balance of like, of like power femme. [both laughing]

[00:52:41] Chris Angel Murphy: Yeah.

[00:52:41] Rebecca Minor: And so it made me think about truck lady. You can cut this out. Um. [both laughing]

[00:52:45] Chris Angel Murphy: No, I'm not. We're leaving this in for sure. Uh- [Rebecca laughs]

[00:52:51] Rebecca Minor: She's a fantastic stylist. Yeah. Thank you, Joey.

I do attribute a lot of that confidence. I, I mean, I think it's evolved over time, but I was raised by really powerful women.

[00:53:02] Chris Angel Murphy: Mm-hmm. It shows.

[00:53:04] Rebecca Minor: All of the women in my family. Right? And, like, it's [Rebecca laughs] very matriarchal. Yeah. I, I think about that sometimes in trying to understand other women, which I- [Rebecca laughs] I'm always trying to do. What happened that was different for me, that I haven't felt like I needed to be meek or quiet or make myself smaller?

[00:53:24] Chris Angel Murphy: Yeah.

[00:53:24] Rebecca Minor: Um, and-

[00:53:24] Chris Angel Murphy: Especially that piece.

[00:53:26] Rebecca Minor: Yeah, that was never modeled for me. I mean, the only way that came up was because I was so freaking tall. [both laughing] Um, Yes. For those listening, I'm 5'10". Um-

[00:53:35] Chris Angel Murphy: I'm 5'11". Aw.

[00:53:37] Rebecca Minor: Aww. Um, but you know, I hit five feet in fifth grade, and all the boys were shorter than me, and it was weird. Um, [Rebecca laughs]

[00:53:44] Chris Angel Murphy: Oh yeah. I towered over my whole second-grade class. It was hysterical.

[00:53:48] Rebecca Minor: Oh my God, yes.

[00:53:48] Chris Angel Murphy: I'll show you a photo sometime.

[00:53:50] Rebecca Minor: And I joke, that's why I was very popular in middle school because all the boys were at boob height with me. [Chris Angel laughs] Um, and I developed early. [both laughing] So

[00:53:59] Chris Angel Murphy: Well..

[00:54:00] Rebecca Minor: [both laughing] But, it's just what it is.

[00:54:04] Chris Angel Murphy: Yep.

[00:54:04] Rebecca Minor: Um, but I mean, that was, that's probably the only way I've ever desired to make myself smaller. Um, but it really does come from- from witnessing the women who raised me really take up space and be, like, badass.

Give yourself some space to think about what being a femme means to you and how you wanna demonstrate that, if at all. Checking in on so many of the things that are kind of automatic and habitual and being like, "do I like that?" Like, even recently, I was like, "I own a shocking number of pencil skirts." [Chris Angel laughs] And I never wear them. Like, truly shocking. [Rebecca laughs] Um, like more than 10, probably.

[00:54:51] Chris Angel Murphy: Oh my gosh.

[00:54:51] Rebecca Minor: Like, why? How did that happen? [both laughing] I like, I don't know how it happened. [both laughing, Chris Angel snorts] Um,

[00:55:01] Chris Angel Murphy: Okay.

[00:55:01] Rebecca Minor: Um, right. And same with heels, and when I'm really honest with myself, especially from a sensory standpoint, I don't like the feeling of wearing a lot of the things that are considered feminine. Like, dangly stuff or, like, lots of bracelets. Like, I own a lot of accessories that I don't ever wear. That I've been thinking about that lately of like, "why is that?" And I'm like, "is it because I don't take the time to adorn myself in this way?" [both laughing] And I'm like, "no, I hate the way it feels."

[00:55:29] Chris Angel Murphy: Yeah.

[00:55:30] Rebecca Minor: Like, I love it visually. So, I think noticing some of those things and giving yourself permission to move away from whatever is not serving you.

[00:55:39] Chris Angel Murphy: With your parent coaching, the first part of the question I want to ask you is, what's the most popular question you get asked?

[00:55:48] Rebecca Minor: It's probably if it's something they're gonna grow out of.

[00:55:51] Chris Angel Murphy: [sucks air through teeth] I was afraid it was gonna be something like that. Or, like, if they did something wrong.

[00:55:56] Rebecca Minor: Yep, that one comes up, too.

[00:55:57] Chris Angel Murphy: Yeah. What do you wish parents asked more of instead?

[00:56:04] Rebecca Minor: How can I better show up for my child? Even if this was a phase, which it almost never is. [Rebecca laughs]

[00:56:11] Chris Angel Murphy: Yeah.

[00:56:11] Rebecca Minor: But even if it were, so what? This is who your kid is telling you who they are right now. Can you meet them there?

[00:56:19] Chris Angel Murphy: What's one allyship tip you'd like for everyone listening to consider?

[00:56:24] Rebecca Minor: Get really clear on what you're willing to lose. To really fully show up in your allyship, you have to know what you're willing to walk away from or put at risk.

Will you stand up for your coworker if it means you could potentially lose your job? Will you speak up to a relative if it means there could be some kind of estranged or strained relationship? What are you willing to lose?

[00:56:49] Chris Angel Murphy: Rebecca, I love you! We did it! And even if it took months, it's another thing off our ever-growing to-do list.

For folks listening, I hope it gave you something interesting to ponder, if not several things. I know I'll be processing our conversation for a while. Thank you, Rebecca. I really appreciate you and your friendship.

Before I launch into the final three self-reflection questions, I have an announcement.

Allyship is a Verb is officially Ambie-nominated! It is up for Best Do-It-Yourself and also Best Personal Growth Podcast. I am floored, and I will be [Chris Angel laughs] going to Las Vegas in March for the awards ceremony on the seventh. Voting is closed to The Podcast Academy members, and if you'd like to watch live, all of the details will be in the episode notes and on the website.

And I just- for those of you who don't know what The Ambies are, it is a podcasting award ceremony and put on by the folks of The Podcast Academy. And just being nominated is a huge honor, and I don't even know how I'll function [Chris Angel laughs] if we win. Um, I'll probably cry and shake the whole way to the stage [Chris Angel laughs] or however this works.

But, uh, that said, thank you to everyone listening to this right now. You inspire me to keep going and working on this project. And thank you to the judges and TPA folks who put in the hours to make this happen. You rock.

Okay, [Chris Angel laughs] last three self-reflection questions to take with you.

4. What do I think of when I think about “femme” or “feminine” energy? What about “masc” or “masculine” energy? Are they both more positive concepts in my mind? Why or why not?

5. What’s a piece of clothing or accessory item I own that doesn’t affirm my gender or provides a negative sensory experience? Can I give it away?

6. What am I willing to lose to fully show up in my allyship?

Visit AllyshipIsAVerb.com for any resources in a full transcript of the episode. And remember, sometimes allyship means knowing what you're willing to lose.