[00:00:16] Chris Angel Murphy

Welcome to Allyship is a Verb, the LGBTQ+ podcast that explores and humanizes practicing allyship for the LGBTQ+ community and beyond. I'm the host, Chris Angel and my pronouns are they/them. Each episode will either be a quick tip to practice allyship or a longer episode to pass the mic to someone else to help keep the conversation intersectional. So this time, let's pass the mic.

[00:00:49] Zoa Glows

Hi, my name is Zoa and my pronouns are she/they/he and I'm so excited to be here!

[00:00:56] Chris Angel Murphy

Zoa wants folks to use and mix up she/they/he pronoun sets, so I'll be doing that to honor Zoa. She's an educator, performer, and overall content creator who posts to major social networks like TikTok and Instagram. A video of Zoa coming out to their students gained a lot of attention on TikTok. He left his work of teaching K-12, most recently at a high school, to pursue other forms of educating people and creating a safer space. Her work and content is inspirational, personal, and informative. Zoa is an activist who dances, sings, and plays piano, among many other talents. We met each other on Instagram semi-recently and have become friends. They're also a swirly, marbley galaxy of energy, joy, love, and light. So, I hope this interview uplifts you the way I felt while we had our conversation.

[00:01:58] Chris Angel Murphy

As a content warning, please know that there is a brief mention of child abuse. Please take care of yourself how you need to before and potentially after listening.

[00:02:09] Chris Angel Murphy

You identify as Black, nonbinary, trans, and questioning. Can you share what those identities mean to you?

[00:02:18] Zoa Glows

Yes, definitely. Oh my gosh, like, as soon as you said that, that made me so happy because that is who I am: Black. [Zoa laughs] It's- it's so important to me and the stuff that is going on in the world right now. It is so important that I am fully myself. When I was a kid, it was hard for me to love myself. And one of those reasons was because the whole world around me was telling me that because I was Black, I wasn't attractive. Because my nose was wider, I wasn't attractive. Because my lips were bigger, because my hair was thicker. And I was so full of self-hatred. And it was ridiculous. Like- and I feel so amazing. Black is such an important identity to me, because it's so beautiful to love yourself when the whole world is telling you "Uh huh, [Zoa laughs] you're not supposed to." And I feel like it's definitely changing, but that is, oh my gosh, I just feel so passionate and I'm so proud to be Black. So, Black.

[00:03:21] Zoa Glows

Nonbinary, oh my goodness, [Zoa laughs] that identity- [Chris Angel laughs] it freed me. Being nonbinary, being who I am, freed me. And I will say that my students [Zoa laughs] are the ones who actually helped me find my freedom to be me. [Zoa laughs] As I'm teaching and I see all these kids coming up to me and telling me who they are, showing me who they are, and me being able to see them- it let me see myself. Just the language that they use with me and also just the way they interacted with me, it let me know who I am, honestly. It let me know that I am me by being here in this classroom because they- they showed me them and so I could see myself.

[00:04:07] Zoa Glows

Trans. [Zoa laughs] Trans is such an important one and it's a tough one for me right now with my family. Because I feel like I'm so vocal about it online or- and I would like to be way more vocal about it. But, with my family I- some of them I don't think that they completely understand. And trans is the identity that seriously like takes the essence of who I am. So, I've been empowered by being black. I've been freed by being nonbinary and trans is the- [Zoa sucks in air and sighs] the glaze, I guess- it's the me coating myself in- [Zoa and Chris Angel laugh] in wonder. I don't know. [Zoa laughs] I'm trying not to sound super artistic, [Zoa laughs] but it's who I am. I consider myself trans. I know that I'm trans and it's who I am. And it used to be hard for me to say, but it's who I am.

[00:05:09] Zoa Glows

And questioning. [Zoa laughs] For a long time in my life, I identifed as gay. And that was my identity- the rainbow flag meant the world to me and I would wave it high and proud. But right now, in my life, the rainbow is great, but [Zoa laughs] the trans flag is the flag that feels so, so right. One of my students gave me a trans flag and we hung it in my classroom in the GSA section of the corner of my classroom. And I feel like that flag was sitting in my classroom for two years, [Zoa laughs] telling me "Hey, what are you doing? [Zoa and Chris Angel laugh] Be yourself." Um questioning, for me, I- even though I did identify as gay back in the day, it wasn't fully who I was. And I've fully come into my own- I know who I am. And I think I know my sexuality, but, I'm questioning because there are a bunch of different labels that fit and that sound great. But I- I honestly am happy with questioning. I'm happy with not fully knowing and not fully putting a label on it. Because, it's not gay. [Zoa laughs] It's not just gay. There's more to it than that. And so I love questioning and it feels great to me right now.

[00:06:40] Chris Angel Murphy

I love that and be artistic!

[00:06:43] Zoa Glows

Thanks [Zoa laughs]

[00:06:43] Chris Angel Murphy

Be yourself, let it out. I love it. And I love how you're almost describing it as like a cake. [Zoa and Chris Angel laugh] I think I started thinking of a cake when you brought in the whole, like glaze imagery. And I'm very food motivated, so I love that. [Zoa laughs] I love how- I'm thinking of just how you shared your identities, it sounds like some keep you grounded, some keep you energized, some keep you like with your head in the clouds. Like, they all serve a different purpose and I've never quite heard anyone describe them that way. And it's- I think you just took me on this really beautiful journey. And I love that.

[00:07:23] Zoa Glows

Aww, that makes me happy. [Zoa laughs]

[00:07:26] Chris Angel Murphy

When you introduce yourself, you use multiple sets of pronouns. As an educator myself, this is a question I field a lot of, you know, "if I see someone using multiple sets of pronouns, what do I do?" and I'm like, "ask them about it." [Chris Angel laughs] So, you know, it can be confusing, because people may not know how to use them. And each person who uses multiple sets of pronouns may have a different preference of order, such as yourself. Maybe they only want you to use certain sets in specific spaces. There's a lot- there's a lot of different variations there. So I do encourage folks to ask something like, "Hey, I noticed you use multiple pronoun sets, how would you like me to use them?" So it's not rude, and it helps you get clear on what that person needs. So that being said, you use she, they, and he and you are specific about that order. So, I'm wondering what helped you land on that order? And how can folks best use those sets for you?

[00:08:27] Zoa Glows

I'm excited to answer this one, because I feel like it's so important. And still people that I really care about today, aren't using them in the way that I would love for them to use them. I have some friends and they just default to she because they see it first, I originally put she in front because that's the one that nobody would ever use with me. And it really hurt. Because if you're not using it, then I feel like you're not seeing all of me. And that's the essence of all these pronouns, is that I want you to see all of me. And that's why I put all three of these in each one is a part of who I am. So, "she" is in front. [Zoa laughs] And the positions of them might change for me as people start using them in the way that I would like. I feel like "they" might move to the front and then "she" "he," but I do put it in that order for a specific reason, because people were not using "she" at all and that that hurt a lot. And then "they" feels amazing. So, I kind of want to talk about these on levels like- okay, so when people say "she," it makes me feel so good. When people say "they," [Zoa laughs] it makes me feel really, really good, too. When people only say "he," [Zoa laughs] it makes me feel awful [Zoa laughs]. And I just think it's important, like you said, to ask each person. For me, I would love i if there's a mix of all three. It doesn't have to be an equal mix, but just if you're only using one, like if you're only using "she" it makes me feel like you really don't see me. And that's the essence of why I want to have all of these here and you to say all of them is because I'm trying to get you to know who I am [Zoa laughs]. So, yeah, they all feel good. They all feel great. I'll tell you when people do use them [Zoa laughs], it's been interesting seeing how people flub. And I'm just like, over here like, "Okay, are you gonna keep going with this flub to where you think that you did something wrong when I didn't say you did something wrong?" [Zoa laughs] kind of thing. They're like, so they, they use "they," and then they're like using "he" and then they're like, "oops, what did I do wrong?" And I get it, I get it. But I'm also like, [Zoa laughs] you can just stop anytime and ask me what I'd like you to use. [Zoa and Chris Angel laugh]

[00:10:36] Chris Angel Murphy

Yeah, it's a little bit of the pronoun game. But sounds like you encourage folks to mix it up. So, they're not honoring you if they're not recognizing that all three of these honor different parts of you, maybe or you even as a whole person? I don't know, does it feel like it's honoring different parts of you? Or you as a whole person? Is there a difference?

[00:10:55] Zoa Glows

Using all of them is honoring me as a whole person, for sure. I like how- we were talking about being artistic- I feel like I could paint people- I could paint people an image of who I am with colors and galaxies [Zoa and Chris Angel laugh] more than I can tell you. With uh- and I just wish that they could see the combination that I see of who I am.

[00:11:17] Chris Angel Murphy

It reminds me of the the travel suitcase that you just got.

[00:11:22] Zoa Glows

Oh, yes, [Zoa laughs] that's pretty see- so everything that- like literally I'm trying to show people with who I am. There's a song from RuPaul's Drag Race [Zoa laughs] it's like, "the most wonderful thing you can do is become the image of your own imagination." And so it's not even just my imagination, it's who I am and I'm trying to get people to see who I am by painting it. Not just with my hair, not just with my eyebrows, not just with my clothes. Okay, that's a part. But, even if you cut all those things off and get rid of it, I'm still me. But I just want people to see who I am a little bit easier. And so I'm painting. I'm painting myself in my image with my suitcase, [Chris Angel laughs] my beautiful, galaxy marble-looking suitcase. [Zoa laughs] Yeah!

[00:12:06] Chris Angel Murphy

Yeah, and there definitely is a brand for you. [Zoa laughs] Lots of purples and swirls. And

[00:12:11] Zoa Glows

Yes

[00:12:12] Chris Angel Murphy

I love it. Speaking of your Instagram, your posts just radiate love and joy. What is your relationship with social media like?

[00:12:23] Zoa Glows

Oh, I'm glad they radiate [Zoa laughs] love and joy. And I do have a love and joy relationship with social media- it's my stage. It allows me to be free and perform for people in a way that is not restricted, for the most part. [Zoa laughs] And I think that's a beautiful thing. And I have had that relationship since before college. I was on YouTube and that felt amazing. And I used to have hair videos, and also just pride videos and expressing myself and being myself. And it's always included some form of dancing, some form of singing, and some form of activism. But I hid that- I hid that for when I went into teaching, because I was working at an elementary school. And that hurt so much to hide it, because I feel like I'm supposed to be flooding out whatever comes out creatively, I don't have to, but it just feels so good when I do. And so I hid it when I was working in elementary school. And then I stopped working at the elementary school because it was a bad environment. It just didn't feel good. And I got to this high school where I was working at and it felt amazing. Oh my gosh, everybody was warm and welcoming. And I could be myself. So social media was public, everything was public. And the kids made me feel like I could be myself, so did the teachers for the most part. And I just feel like a lot of people think they have to hide themselves professionally and I think that me being me is professional, you know.

[00:13:54] Zoa Glows

I will say social media makes me feel so good, but there's also a negative side to it for sure, vecause it causes me so much anxiety, posting. [Zoa laughs] I don't want validation. I just want to post and leave it there and not have to think about it and put out my art into the world. But it makes me feel bad because I'm constantly checking to see "oh my gosh, did this post blow up or" and most the time it doesn't. And so, if you can imagine I'm feeling awful most of the time from posting. Even though I'm feeling amazing, too, on the other hand, because I got my creativity out there. It shouldn't have to blow up. I know that social media doesn't determine your worth. I know that. But, I want to be seen and I want to be heard because I know there's people that need to see me and it hurts when they don't. And so, for me social media is important because it moves people. I will also say that I had a TikTok video. It blew up, it was when I came out to my students as nonbinary. And that was the most amazing experience. My sister told me to record it and I recorded it and it blew up. I knew the instant it blew up, that this is not going to make me feel good. This is not going to bring me complete happiness and joy, I have to do that myself. And so it felt great to have all the comments and stuff, but it was overwhelming because, yes, I got to be myself and put myself out there to the whole world. And I assumed that my family would see it and they know who I am. But still, they don't fully know who I am. And I just feel like I don't mind negative comments. I love people's positive reactions, but they don't feed me either. Either do the negative ones. But, what gets me is that- kind of like the song from The Greatest Showman- Never Enough. It's never enough and that's bad. Like, I don't want to feel that way. But that's how I feel about social media, is that no matter if somebody- if my whole account blows up, and I have a billion followers, I'm never going to be completely happy with it, it's never going to give me full worth. And so I revert back to stretching, [Zoa laughs] and music and- and creating again, because social media can make me feel awful [Zoa laughs].

[00:16:01] Chris Angel Murphy

There's an interesting tension there. Because I feel really positive about you and I connecting-

[00:16:07] Zoa Glows

Mhm

[00:16:07] Chris Angel Murphy

Being able to meet other folks through social media in this way, it can feel really great. And that's what you hope for- for me, that's what I hope for, speaking for myself. And yet, like you said, there are opportunities now to turn off commenting, to hide likes on Instagram at least. And I think that can be helpful, but, when you and I are creators and educators, we also kind of need to know which content is resonating with folks. And so it's helpful to know, okay, people want to see more of this. And I guess what's most important there is, is it something that you feel good about posting? Is it actually stuff that you want to? Is it actually a way that you want to express yourself? You know, I haven't been following you for too long. But, you know, as I've been seeing you sort of experiment with what you're putting out there and sort of gauging reactions. I imagine that feels very vulnerable, but how is that feeling for you?

[00:17:08] Zoa Glows

Well, putting it out there feels great. And I know that it's something that I- I can't stop doing because when I'm not doing it, I feel like I'm hiding so much of who I am. But, I will also say that everything that I'm creating [Zoa laughs] it's like my mind is a bowl of a lot of stuff thrown in there. [Chris Angel laughs] Music, and singing, and dancing, and inspirational speeches, and all of this stuff. And so it feels great. Oh my gosh, I have it all in me and it feels so good to get it out. But then, it just also feels empty, a little bit- like I guess that's my artist/creative side, it really does feel good to connect to other people. But it just also, I don't know why it just feels so empty. And I wish it didn't, but [Zoa laughs] it does.

[00:17:56] Chris Angel Murphy

Something I've heard artists say is a sentiment around once you've put something out there, you can't really control how people are going to react to it or what they're going to do with it. How I've perceived you is you're just putting all this love out there, again, just radiating love and joy. And it sounds like that does also fuel you. Are there ways that you share that same love and joy for yourself? Or like inward?

[00:18:24] Zoa Glows

I feel like for me, going inward... Oh my gosh, when I am with people in person I feel alive. And I feel so- right- right now I can't go out as much and I can't be with people much. So social media does give me that. It's kind of like Twilight. [Zoa laughs] I keep using all these movie references. Twilight with vampires and I'm eating animal blood on social media. [Zoa and Chris Angel laugh] I'm like, drinking animal blood and yes it's fueling me, I feel good. But talking to people in person, if you saw me in person, if we were interacting, I come alive. I come alive on the dance floor. I come alive at parties. I come alive when I am connected, just introducing people to things, when I'm meeting new people. Oh my gosh and so maybe that's why I feel empty is that I'm getting like animal blood [Zoa and Chris Angel laugh] and not human blood.

[00:19:18] Chris Angel Murphy

If taken out of context, this is just really interesting. [Zoa and Chris Angel laugh] I appreciate your way of helping to you know, just explain. So, being that you're an educator and performer and you are out and proud with your students and co workers- it was news for me to learn that you shared that with your students through TikTok and recording it. Were you nervous about inviting people in and have there been any tools or anything that you use to make it a smoother process for yourself?

[00:19:52] Zoa Glows

Because I've put myself out there so much, like on a daily basis, I would wear wigs to school. I would paint my nails at school- like lace front wigs. And I feel like every time I did that, it made me feel amazing because it made me feel like the whole world is telling me not to be me. So let me be me, as me as I want to be on that day.

And that made me so brave and so strong. And so I totally was nervous, but that nervousness is the same nervousness that I get when I'm on stage. It's like- fuels me so much to be like, on- on the edge of fear on the edge of breaking, and then go and jump, like literally jump off. [Zoa laughs] Because it's scary, you know, so that's always been me, it's, it's my- at graduations [Zoa laughs], I feel like I'm a sheep and I am just walking with the masses and we're going through the motions, and I always have to do something huge to be like, "Okay, this is me, I'm not just gonna do it, like everybody else, I'm gonna do it like me." At my college graduation, I did a split on stage. [Both laugh] At community college graduation, a high kick [Chris Angel laughs], and I promise, it's, it's not just for the attention, and some people think it is, it's because I have to shine bright. I have to- this is my one life that I get to live and if I don't fully express myself, I just feel like, I'm like flat-lining and- and we're all just going through the motions, and we're not living to our fullest selves.

So that's why the moment it boiled up, when I was at the school, it boiled and boiled and boiled. And I'm like [Zoa sighs], I can't do this anymore. I want people to know me, I want people to see me. So, it just flooded out. And I was so glad that they made me feel comfortable enough, because if I- if I was at the other school, I knew I wouldn't have felt comfortable enough, because they didn't make me feel good about myself at all. So... yeah.

[00:21:44] Chris Angel Murphy

Yeah, there's this image I get of, or this saying that goes around saying, you know, "If a plant isn't doing well, check the environment, and maybe it's the environment that needs to change." And you know, then all of a sudden, it can be thriving. And I don't know, like, we've talked a lot so far about expressing yourself in all of these different ways. Where do you get your inspiration from?

[00:22:07] Zoa Glows

Black women! [Zoa and Chris Angel laugh] For my hair, definitely Black women. Oh, my gosh, I just think that Black women are so magical. My sisters, my six sisters are all unique, and all amazing. [Zoa laughs] And they all have a different style. And none of them would probably choose my style [Zoa and Chris Angel laugh], but everything is come from it. I do my own hair and so I learned how to do it when I was in high school and I learned how to braid my own hair. And I just feel like the innovation of Black women, literally is such a big part of who I am.

I'd say a lot of my heart does come from my mother and my mother- she had eight kids [Zoa laughs] eight children. And it's complicated because there's so much love and there's so much strength in my family and each one of my sisters. [Zoa sighs] But there's also so much that each of them have been through and there's so much that I've been through personally. And so, I'm inspired by Black women.

My mom's favorite color is purple too, by the way. [Zoa and Chris Angel laugh] I got it from her. I'm inspired by Black women. I think it's just a feeling of love. It's a feeling of [Zoa laughs] "Yes!"

[00:23:28] Chris Angel Murphy

Yeah. The moment you said black women were your inspiration. It was like I heard a multitude of snaps and "yes!!!!" [Zoa laughs] and cheering happening.

[00:23:38] Zoa Glows

Awww, I love it.

[00:23:42] Chris Angel Murphy

At times when people come out, or invite folks in, I'm trying to stay inviting folks in. There's this whole like thing around coming out and how I think in some ways, I'm not going to be eloquent with how I say this right now, but there's something around it further reinforces that straight is the default. So when we invite someone in, we can field some invasive questions. With that in mind, I'm wondering, what's one question, at least, that you wish people would stop asking you?

[00:24:18] Zoa Glows

[Zoa laughs] My eyes got so big when you said [Zoa and Chris Angel laugh], when you said that, because I have a lot of questions that people ask me that are not supposed to be asked. But, I will say that one of the questions that really rubbed me the wrong way, is that if I was going to change my name on my license or my ID. It was asked by a friend and it really- I was like, "why?" We're having a good time we're hanging out. And I'm like- is like they're trying to say that I'm not valid because I have not changed it on my ID. And there's so much that came with that question. So them saying that question brought me to, "oh, my gosh, I'm still getting all these letters in the mail with my deadname on it." I'll say to that, I know that the phrase deadname and I know it resonates with a lot of people. I don't personally like the phrase for me, because [Zoa laughs] I don't like anything that says dead. But I know that it's really important to other people and so for the sake of this, I see my deadname in emails. I see my deadname in pictures on Facebook. I see it in so many different places and so for you to ask me if I'm changing it on my ID, makes me think about a lot of things. And I'm just like, "come on. Can you not ask me that?" You know?

[00:25:34] Chris Angel Murphy

Yeah, it's interesting. There's a few thoughts I have happening at the same time. So number one, just doubling down on what you said, you don't need to be legitimate because of some court document. I think of people have nicknames and we don't bat an eye at that. We're just like, "cool, I'm gonna honor that that's what you want to be called." And it's not like it's a trans thing or anything like that. It's just, this is the vibration I want to put into the world and it's cool. But like, all of a sudden, because you're trans, it's like, "Well, wait, is this official? Because if it's not, then I'm not calling you that!" And that's not what I'm saying your friends were doing. But there's that air, right? And the other part too is, that's such a personal question.

For everyone listening, a way that I sort of teach Trans 101, so to speak, is there's these buckets that I describe. There's the medical bucket where people are obsessed with "Are you taking hormones? Are you having THE surgery?" Which by the way, there's over 15, there's no one surgery. People think like, they can ask you all about that bucket. And I tell folks DON'T touch that bucket. Then there's the legal bucket and that includes what gender or sex is listed on your documentation legally, your name. I say don't touch that either. And then and then there's a social bucket and that's more where it's like, you know, asking you about, like, maybe how did you come to find that this is how you identify or, you know, just like almost everything else can fit in that and that that is a little bit better. People are allowed to have their boundaries and everything, but when it comes to those three buckets, in particular, stay the heck away from legal and medical, because it's none of your business.

[00:27:14] Zoa Glows

Exactly.

[00:27:15] Chris Angel Murphy

So it'd be different if maybe I were your friend- and I am

[00:27:20] Zoa Glows

Yes!

[00:27:21] Chris Angel Murphy

it'd be different. We're sending hearts to each other through video. I love it. It'd be different, if-if it were like, "Hey, I know that you are submitting to get your name changed. I'd like to support you. Do you want me to go with you? Do you need help filling out?" You know, if there was something like that

[00:27:37] Zoa Glows

I just feel like there's stuff that shouldn't be asked for sure. If we go back to that story, real quick of the friends- it didn't just stop there and that's another problem is that it's not just that one question. It keeps diving deeper and deeper. And so it moved on to "Oh, well, can I still call you this or this nickname?" that is literally the same thing as [Zoa laughs] before, almost. There's- there's so many more nicknames that you can think of for Zoa you know, I like Zo-zo.

[00:28:07] Chris Angel Murphy

Yeah, it's hard to find the boundary and the line. And if that's not something you're used to fielding- those kinds of questions, you know, there can just be so many charged emotions happening that you... I've been stuck, like, setting a boundary because I'm just reeling emotionally.

[00:28:25] Zoa Glows

Yeah and it caught it- catches you off guard sometimes like some of the questions that I get asked walking into the grocery store. I'm like, "did this lady just really ask me that?" And I answered it in a really nice friendly way, but then when I go think about it again, I'm like, wait, the next time someone asks me that- and they do [Zoa laughs] I need to- I need to set these boundaries. And I need to say what I need to say to feel good about what just happened.

[00:28:47] Chris Angel Murphy

Yeah, it's interesting, because it's different if we're having a conversation like this podcast, but then when you're in your personal life being your lovely self, it's different, because that's not the energy that you were expecting. And you're absolutely allowed to have those boundaries. And it's interesting because like, I'm still working really hard not to be a people pleaser. And one of the ways that can show up is, "oh, let me be uncomfortable so that you don't have to be" because like, I also don't want to deal with that. But it's like, but wait, I don't need to be feeling bad. I'm allowed to have a boundary, I'm allowed to set that for myself and to be firm in it.

[00:29:26] Zoa Glows

People pleasing for me is looking a lot like saying, "No, I can finally say what I actually want to say." And it's hard. It's hard, because every day, I like make a post on my story. And I'm just like, I need to post this, this is what I want the world to see, no matter who sees it. And then there's a part of me that used to and sometimes still does delete it, and is like, "No, I'm being too much, I'm shining too much, they're gonna get annoyed, they're gonna unfollow me," but who cares. And that's I'm working on people pleasing in that way. But I'm also working on people pleasing- to stop people pleasing with my family, making them comfortable, because there's some discussions that we haven't had. And we really do need to have, because just because I'm telling everybody else online [Zoa laughs] because I know, it's, it's, it's my platform to say what I want to say. And I- they're not gonna feel uncomfortable, because if they don't want to be there, they can just leave. But my family, I feel like if you're really gonna see me, and some of them do, but others, it feels like we haven't touched. I grew up in a household of 10. So, there's a lot of people [Zoa laughs] to, to cover, you know, if they really want to see me. I feel like it's, it's up to them. But it's also- I would like them to see me. So, I feel like I need to help a little bit.

[00:30:41] Chris Angel Murphy

Something else you mentioned, too, with the deadnaming piece- I've never liked that term, I'm actually really grateful that you shared that it's not something that resonates with you, either. I know, we can say like being misgendered and stuff like that. I wonder if it's because I've worked a lot in suicide prevention. It's something that's been really crunchy for me, but it's it's been like the popular word. And so you know, trying to hold the space for this is something that names an experience for folks and they want to use that term. And then for me, it's just I just can't use it for myself, I'm not going to tell someone else not to use it. It's just not a term that resonates for me.

[00:31:22] Zoa Glows

Definitely.

[00:31:24] Chris Angel Murphy

Part of allyship is recognizing that we can make mistakes. Is there a time you wished you had done a better job of practicing allyship? And what do you do differently now?

[00:31:38] Zoa Glows

I love this question because as a teacher, we encounter- if you're a teacher, you have trans students, you have nonbinary students, you have queer students. And so we were just talking about deadnaming and I feel like when I first learned the term, I didn't even realize that I was calling students by names that they didn't want to go by. Because a lot of times, they don't fully tell you and they're not ready to tell you and all their friends might know. And so even if you just say the name that is on the roster, they- nobody told you that it was that. So I wish I could have better showed up for my students by providing a sheet beforehand.

One of my friends from college is Ello Steph and she actually has a pronoun sheet for educators in her bio, which is beautiful. She's also a teacher and I just feel like it's so important for teachers to ask, but ask in a way that is not going to hurt the student because some students have not come out to their parents yet. Some students have not come out to the staff at school, some haven't even come out to their friends. But, when they see that you have the pronoun sheet and specifically for my classroom, where I had all the different pride flags up and stuff, they felt safe and they felt comfortable. So I am proud of what I've learned from my students. Because my initial reaction [Zoa laughs] when someone said, "Oh my gosh, you just deadnamed so-in-so," was to get my guard up, right? And like be like, "Oh, no!" But, that I just breathe now. If it happens, it happens. And so the the way that I can better show up now is 1) to present a solution to where I get it if they really want me to know and 2), to just pause and not react in a way that is combative. And like, "Oh no, I didn't do that" kind of thing. You know, because it's okay if you didn't know.

[00:33:40] Chris Angel Murphy

We talked about a question you don't want to field from people, so what's something you wish people asked you more of instead?

[00:33:49] Zoa Glows

[Zoa laughs] My sister asked me today, "what dessert would you be?" [Chris Angel laughs] And I wish, like I described my dessert as like ice cream that is watermelon flavored, which actually sounds kind of disgusting, but maybe I'm a little gross. [Zoa laughs] Watermelon flavored ice cream with galaxy colors and sprinkles. And so I feel like in that dessert that I described to her, I felt like that gives people more of a sense of who I am by this dessert. And she said she'd be like dark chocolate, which is awesome. And so I feel like it helps a little more to paint a picture because that's so much more visual, you know, like, [Zoa laughs] the taste: watermelon, the colors: swirls and galaxy, bio luminescence kind-of-thing. [Zoa laughs] And I just feel like, visual, I'm so visual. And so I wish people would visualize me more than they try to understand me and ask me questions. Like, I wish they would visualize, like, "Ooh, that's Zoa. Yeah, I got it now." [Zoa laughs]

[00:35:00] Chris Angel Murphy

I think what I'm also picking up on and what I've heard- don't make everything about my transness, or my nonbinaryness or that I'm part of this, like, the larger community, like, there are more aspects to me. So ask me, those random questions, those deeper questions. Again, not the stuff like about my name, and medical stuff, and all that, but like, you know, ask me what my favorite sunset looks like and what part of the world that's in and the color- the other things, too.

[00:35:32] Zoa Glows

I love how you said asked me about other things, and not make it all about my transness. But also, I love to make it all about my transness, too, and my me being nonbinary and me being black, if that is within the community, like within the community. And so there's certain people that I feel so connected to, and I feel like we can bond and we can talk about these hard issues like how we're talking now. But, if you are not a part of the community, it's it's hard to have those conversations sometimes. And I feel like to be honest, it's not meant for you to have that conversation with you. I do want my family to know me and see me, but [Zoa laughs] I can so much easlier or connect with you. And so I feel like we're family, because, yeah, we will go through a lot of things. And everybody's experience is different. But we- it's- it's not easy. And so it makes us closer.

[00:36:31] Chris Angel Murphy

Something that I tend to teach is remember when people are coming out to you or inviting you in- I'm working on that shift. When people are inviting you in, you never know if- if you're the first person that they're inviting in. And so when all of a sudden, you're forced almost into this educator role, you were looking for support probably more than anything else. And so then when you're having to educate people and- and you just have different tools. And so sometimes it is easier for us to talk in communities, because we'll have some of the same tools. And whereas, if we want to have those conversations outside of the community, other folks may not have those same tools that we can use. And so we're starting kind of from step one, which is okay. But you know, that also can take a lot out of me, it's just different when like someone else knows and gets it. And we can just sort of sit in that and not even really have to, like, share many words around it.

[00:36:41] Zoa Glows

Mhm. And yeah, that's so true. And I just feel like I have such a big family. If I take all the time to attend to this person to make sure they see me, it's so much effort, and I want them to see me, but I'm probably not going to do that [Zoa laughs] and hopefully this interview helps them see me more. But like for some trans people, and for some nonbinary people, it's so hard to say to the people that we love- to the people that we grew up with- what we actually want to say and it's hard for us to say who we actually are and so I love that you called it inviting them in because it literally is that coming out or inviting someone in is literally inviting you to be a part of this and it's- it's not easy. [Zoa laughs]

[00:37:18] Chris Angel Murphy

Can you share about a time you felt truly supported by someone and what they did to show up for you?

[00:37:27] Zoa Glows

Aww, this one makes me happy. Okay, so before I say this, I want to say that this made me feel good, but it might make other people not feel so great. And a teacher that I was working with, she came up to me and she brought me the yearbook to sign at the end of the year. And the way she said it, I felt supported, I felt loved. She brought me the yearbook and it honestly makes me want to cry, thinking about it again. [Zoa laughs] She came up to me, brought me the yearbook and she said, "Now, I have this yearbook. And if you would like you can sign over here by your theater students. So you don't have to see the picture of you before," because it's before I started presenting more as myself. And that was the sweetest thing. She gave me the options and the choices, but in such a delicate way- the way she said it was just full of so much love. And I just- be like, that was really considerate.

And there's people in my family who still don't get it. And this lady, she's not a part of the community. She's just a lady that loves and I don't know, it just felt amazing. And we interacted in passing, but it just meant so much. And we shared a lot of the same students. And so, it meant so much the way that she was there for me and supported me. And just the way that she said it. Yeah, I felt really supported. And I felt loved.

And that felt incredible to know that a staff member at a school, is that considerate to me- of -and it just felt great to me. It might not feel great to other people and maybe other people, but might have a different reaction, but it felt so good. Like, "Yes, thank you." I wish more people would make me feel that way that she made me feel.

[00:40:10] Chris Angel Murphy

Yeah, there is something really interesting around this concept of before and after, because some folks will say, "Well, you, you've always been you. It's just how much more of that has been outward." And there is something, and I've definitely seen trans people all handle this differently, as far as embracing before photos, or- it's just a very crunchy conversation, I'll say

[00:40:33] Zoa Glows

Mhm.

[00:40:35] Chris Angel Murphy

And there's something around people being considerate enough to say, "Hey, I want to honor you." So an example I can easily think of is if they want to celebrate you for your birthday, getting permission to say, "Hey, is this a photo that's okay with you? Especially if it's like a baby photo or something like that and it may not be something that honors how, like you identify today. Just- just taking that extra moment to say, "I want to honor you, I want you to be seen for you. Is it okay if I share this photo?"

[00:41:02] Zoa Glows

I love that.

[00:41:03] Chris Angel Murphy

And maybe that means also like, even in a family household, taking some photos down

[00:41:07] Zoa Glows

Mhm

[00:41:08] Chris Angel Murphy

You know, and that can be a lot because it's like, "Well, you're my baby." And it's like "I know, but that's not how I want you to see me." Because that's not seeing me fully. But there's also been this like tension of honoring and respecting the journeys we've been on and this quote unquote, before and after.

[00:41:24] Zoa Glows

Definitely, no, I love it. And it makes me think of me and my partner. We're more than partners [Zoa laughs] We've been together for 11 years. And so on the fridge, we have photos of before. And when it- there's love attached to it, too, and you have those moments, it just is different for every person and what they're comfortable with. Those, I don't mind having up, but I'm trying to get more of who- how I feel and who I am now up. But, on my social media profiles, like the weirdest thing has been happening to where if someone just re-encounters my profile, they go back to the old ones. And if on Facebook, it's the worst because they go back to the old ones and they like all my old pictures. And I'm just like, "What on earth?! Now all these old pictures are popping up. And why did you do that?!" [Zoa laughs]

[00:42:07] Chris Angel Murphy

Oh no.

[00:42:08] Zoa Glows

It's- Yeah, it doesn't feel good for me and it probably doesn't feel good for- I'm sure it doesn't feel good for other people. I leave them up there for people to see the journey, especially on Instagram- to see this is where I've come from and this is who I am. I love it. I love that it's there, [Zoa laughs] but- it just feels sometimes that you're doing that to-to hurt me kind-of-thing. Like you're doing that to say, "Go back to this way. Why do you have long hair now?" And the I've had people literally say that to me, every- they're like, "Everything's changing." And these are- one of them was a little kid that is a part of my family. And they're like, "Why do I have to call you this now?" And so from kids, I can excuse it, but when it's coming from adults [Zoa laughs] and on social media that are supposed to care about me, it's- it's even if they're not saying it, that's what I'm getting from them going back to these old pictures. Yeah.

[00:43:00] Chris Angel Murphy

A generalization, a stereotype, a myth- I'm not really sure what you would call this, but something that I've heard for years and years and years is that with black families, sometimes they might embrace a gay relative, like maybe there's a lesbian daughter or something in the family. And maybe she brings her girlfriend over for Thanksgiving dinner or something like that. And it's like, we'll accept it sort-of-thing, but we're not going to talk about it and we're not going to pay it a bunch of attention. I'm not even really sure where to go with this question -I- other than I guess maybe, has this been an experience that you've seen? I'm just gonna leave it super open.

[00:43:46] Zoa Glows

Yeah, so I'm gonna take it to the community and I will say that growing up being Black and being queer, I felt like that's not okay in itself, because of how I- what I was not told. I was not told, "Hey, this person is awesome. They're amazing for being who they are, look at them." They weren't celebrated. They weren't uplifted.

I have family members who, they would see a guy that was really feminine walking by, and they make snide comments, like, "Ihh, look at that person, or look at them what they're doing" and all these kinds of things. So that was when I was a kid. And I [Zoa laughs] in my Black family, kinda, I feel like for some people, I changed it and I helped it grow. I helped their minds open more, but I will say that I don't want to minimize my experience, because it was rough growing up in a Black household, but not because I was queer I want to say and that that made it hard, too. But, I think the thing that made it hard for me was that the things that I love about myself now, were not the things that were uplifted.

There was a lot of love, but we just didn't talk about those things, you know. And so I, as a queer person, am thinking, "Oh, my gosh, what are they gonna think if that IS me?" And it is [Zoa laughs] literally is me. And not even- some still don't get it to this day, but like trans, too. Being trans, I feel like they- like me saying that to my family, still... [Zoa sighs] They don't know what trans is. They don't know what that means and how that affects the way that I would like them to be towards me. And there was some negativity, there was some.. I will say that when I am a parent [Zoa laughs] and- it will be instantaneous and just as soon as they're out of the womb [Zoa and Chris Angel laugh] this child will be able and like, uplifted for everything and know- they'll know that you can be yourself and that this person is beautiful. And this person is amazing.

And that's what I was missing kind of, is that the assurance that if this is who I am, you're going to be okay. I was scared as heck. I was so scared and things were fine. They weren't amazing, because still, it wasn't something, while I'm a child dealing with these things and going with all these things in my mind of thinking, "Oh, they're gonna hate me, this is not okay with our religion, this is not acceptable. They're gonna be ashamed of me," these kind of things. Literally, I was thinking that and I think some of it might have been true for them and so that's why I was scared.

My dad was a pastor. My mom's pretty religious still and I feel like- [Zoa sighs] I just feel like, I want it to feel safer to be me. And it took me a long time. And I feel like because it took me a long time, it made me stronger, and made me who I am today to where I'm really brave. Because when I was outed [Zoa laughs] when I did invite people to see me more, and I'm still inviting people in in different ways, and I'm still growing, I just feel like it wasn't easy and it wasn't a safe environment.

[00:46:56] Zoa Glows

For my students, it's a safe space. But, I feel like that safe space is not created for a lot of people. And it's- it should be [Zoa laughs] Like- to me it should be a requirement for families. For Black families, for sure, and I will say that it just hurts so much to see when I see videos of children getting beat for being gay. In my own family, a kid was spanked for playing with a doll. A guy- a boy was spanked for playing with a doll. And I saw and I was like, "What the heck is going on?" Like, why can't this kid- and I remember, like, that didn't happen to me as much in my family, but it was just something that we didn't say.

And so why- they don't know that I'm feeling bad, because I think that I might want to try on this dress. But, the fact that they didn't let me know that it's okay to really hurt. I just feel like I should be okay to express myself in ways and I feel like parents don't have the language that they need. Parents don't have the the knowledge that they need to help a child feel empowered and feel loved fully without being scared to be themselves.

[00:48:09] Chris Angel Murphy

If you take a doll and when we think of a doll, we think of one that would be for little girls, but if we give it to boys, they're action figures.

[00:48:20] Zoa Glows

Mhm.

[00:48:21] Chris Angel Murphy

There's a rebranding there. So, I'm sitting with that. And I'm also thinking about growing up in a religious household, wherever you've landed with that on your personal journey. Something I've been seeing is discourse around how "love the sinner, hate the sin" is also missing the mark. My understanding of it is that it's like, you're kind of like compartmentalizing us. Because it's like, "I love you, but I also really don't have to agree with this thing that you're doing." It's like, "Well, then you're not really loving me. That's not unconditional love." And that's how I'm interpreting it.

[00:48:58] Zoa Glows

Yeah, I don't have time for that! [Chris Angel laughs] If the if a family member wanted, like, bye! [Zoa laughs] If they wanted to say, "I love you, but this is not okay."

And so I guess in some ways, I am grateful that my family has not said that and they've been trying to be open. [Zoa laughs] But if they said that, to me, like "love the sinner, hate the sin," kind-of-thing like, I don't think I'm sinning, I don't think I'm doing anything wrong. And that's the kind of thing is where I wish they would just close their mouth a little bit and say, "I love you." [Zoa laughs] That's it. Period. But it does help when they say it to know where they really stand [Zoa laughs] and where their mind is, and what they think they have to think to be in line with their religious beliefs, you know?

[00:49:41] Chris Angel Murphy

What's one allyship tip you'd like for everyone listening to consider?

[00:49:47] Zoa Glows

My ally tip is to pause and ask yourself, "Will my compliments, questions, and language uplift this individual? Or could they possibly cause them discomfort or harm?" Because each of those things- compliments, questions, a lot of questions have called- caused me harm and discomfort and a lot of language has caused me harm and discomfort. But on the flip side, a lot of it has uplifted me.

So if you are willing, and you're wanting to uplift me, that's what I would love. Uplift me and make me feel like you see me and so: pause. Before you say something and think about those things and I think that people could possibly feel a little safer in approaching if they pause to think about whether they're gonna hurt me or not.

[00:50:35] Chris Angel Murphy

Visit AllyshipIsAVerb.com for any resources and a full transcript of the episode. Thank you for practicing allyship with me. Please follow and share this episode with someone else. And remember, sometimes allyship means taking a pause.