[00:00:00] Chris Angel Murphy: Well, hello there. I'm Chris Angel, and my pronouns are they/them. Welcome to Allyship is a Verb, a podcast for people practicing allyship for the LGBTQ+ community and beyond.

[00:00:22] Lianna Newman: Hi, my name is Lianna Newman, and I don't use any pronouns. I just ask folks to use my first name.

[00:00:32] Chris Angel Murphy: (in digitized singing voice) I'm biased as fuck, I love Lianna.

I'm just, (laughs) I'm in my unhinged chaotic energy phase, and this is just - what happens is I've decided to start singing poorly in certain sections of the episode. So there you go. You're welcome. You didn't ask for it and you just get it as a bonus.

Anywho, we' re fast friends who met on an Out in Tech panel back in December of 2021, but didn't connect intentionally until more recently. I was basically like, "Hi, you're awesome. Be on my podcast," on LinkedIn. And then it was crickets for a while because I got way too busy overwhelming myself with, you know, everything; as my friends know I am prone to do.

So I poked my head back in recently and I was like, "Hey, so are you ready? I think I'm ready now. podcast time?" and I will say that this episode was the longest one I've ever recorded. (laughs) We were talking for 2.5 hours and the software cut us off. (laughs) It like glitched out and was like, "Clearly, there's no way you two people are still talking."

Anyway, I hate that I had to cut out so much of our convo. So there are lots of pieces you won't get to hear this time around, but I hope to release more of it as a bonus episode or something in the future and we also very obviously had fun recording it.

So Lianna is a full stack software engineer, DC chapter head of Out in Tech and a DEI speaker. Also, if you'll recall on a recent episode, if you're a regular listener, I said that I make mistakes too and you're definitely gonna hear some of them in this episode. And rather than cutting them out and not embarrassing myself or whatever I've left them in, cause maybe there are things that you don't know about and we can learn together. So there we are.

And now it's self-reflection questions time. I will start us off with three right now and then be sure to stick around after our conversation for three more.

1. If I'm a regular listener to Allyship is a Verb, and I skipped the last episode about kink, why did I do that?

2. What brings me joy lately? How do I create joy for myself?

3. What is the diversity like where I work? Are there visibly diverse people in leadership positions?

And now our conversation.

You are Black, Caribbean, trans, nonbinary, pan - short for pansexual I presume? Yep, you're nodding. Neurodivergent, more specifically BPD or borderline personality disorder and queer as fuck.

[00:03:33] Lianna Newman: Yes.

[00:03:33] Chris Angel Murphy: What do those intersections mean to you?

[00:03:36] Lianna Newman: I think each part of my identity has sort of shaped my view of the world and the way in which I interact with it. I am very used to being like the Other. Even in my family; like my family's Caribbean, I was the only one born here.

Ironically that came up today at work. Like we had to play a bingo game and they're like, who's been born outside the U.S.? And I was like, not me, just everyone I know. (laughs)

And so it has definitely, I think also helped in terms of just like being able to be an ally to other communities. Just because like I have so many intersecting identities that I've just like - I'm here for all the things. (laughs)

[00:04:17] Chris Angel Murphy: Something I wanted to dive into first is that many people are still wrapping their heads around pronouns as a concept. They/them pronouns, which I use, still carry a lot of controversy to this day. You don't use any pronouns, meaning you don't use any third person pronouns. Is that correct?

[00:04:38] Lianna Newman: Correct.

[00:04:39] Chris Angel Murphy: Pronouns are tricky. I have companies hiring me often to talk about pronouns and to help explain what's going on. So let's pause here for a moment.

We have first, second, and third person pronouns in English. First person pronouns are when we are talking about ourselves. In the singular, that would be pronouns like I, me, my, and mine. Plural, would be examples like we, us, our, and ours. Second person pronouns are when we are talking to someone. In both the singular and plural, the pronouns are you, your, and yours, et cetera.

Third person pronouns are when we are talking about someone that someone may or may not be in the room or in the vicinity. So in the singular, that would be examples like she/her, they/them, he/him; in the plural we use, they/them. So, "Hi, I'm Chris Angel. My pronouns are they/them." How many times have you heard me say that?

So that means when people are talking about me, I want them to use they, them, theirs, et cetera. But people can still say, "Hey, you are Chris Angel. Is that right?" And I would say "Yes," and that's still affirming to me. Or "I am using first person pronouns right now."

So we're just talking about third person pronouns, but here's the thing: we just ask someone, what are your pronouns? And we mean to ask them for third person pronouns. We don't do something like this (in digitized singing voice) "We would like to formally request your third person pronouns."

It's okay if it doesn't click right now. Give yourself some space and time to let it fall into place for you .When you take the time to practice, and if you even need to do that with someone else, it makes all of the difference.

So would you feel comfortable sharing about how you came to that decision, like, how that honors you as a person or the feeling you get when people practice that with you?

[00:06:50] Lianna Newman: I attended what I believe is now the Philly Trans Wellness Conference, it was the Trans Health Conference back in the day, and I went and saw someone speak and, you know, they were talking about something and then they started talking about being nonbinary. And at the, at this point I just was like, "Oh, okay, this was the gender they gave me and I guess I will just hold it."

I didn't really think about gender (laughs) . And so when the person started to speak, I asked - well, I didn't ask, I was like, "Oh, that's weird. I, I feel like that. Okay." And then they said a bunch of other stuff and I was like, "Okay, that's also how I feel. That's weird." I was like, wait, "Am I nonbinary?" (laughs) And I was like, "Oh, that's awesome." Except then that meant I had to come out again. I was like, wait! (laughs)

[00:07:31] Chris Angel Murphy: Mm-hmm.

[00:07:32] Lianna Newman: So, so then when I came out as nonbinary this was back in like 2014, I started using they/them pronouns. I wanted to see like how it felt at work. I got all the typical things of like, "Well I was an English major. Well-" and I was like, "Okay, great, that's so good for you."

. But I had this one supervisor who refused to use they/them cause she also was an English major, a lot of English majors in HR. (laughs) So, but, she had to write a review for me, and during the review I noticed that she only used my name. Like, even in places where it's obvious, like just put "they", she just used my name completely and it was like a little bit passive aggressive, (laughs) like a lot passive aggressive.

And I also really love my name. Like I'm very, very happy with it. I love the origin story of it. I love the fact that I was saved from being named "Percella", not "Priscilla", which is a beautiful name, but "Percella" because my dad is a narcissist and that's fine. (both laugh) but I'm very grateful to my mother for finding some news- newspaper article with the name "Lianna", and then giving it to me.

And it's kind of weird because like from that passive aggressive experience, I was like, "Wait, actually this feels better though. Like, I really like this." And I think the next year I went to Philly Trans Health, I saw someone had just written like "none."

And I was. You could do that? (laughs) And so-

[00:09:02] Chris Angel Murphy: Mm-hmm.

[00:09:02] Lianna Newman: I was like, "Oh, okay. If I can do that, I would love that. That feels really affirming." Like since I guess like 2014, 2015, I've just been using my name. When people do make like the effort and when people - like there are people who just get it, like they don't question it, they're like, "yes", usually community members - it feels amazing cause it feels like I'm seen, I feel safe with that person, I feel like I can be my whole self when a lot of the time I do feel like I'm performing, right.

Even being out, it just, it still feels like a (laughs) performance. But when I get like recognized and I guess respected? (laughs) Because I'm like, "Hey, this is me." it's indescribable. So yeah.

[00:09:44] Chris Angel Murphy: So I've been talking about you a lot and part of that is because I know theoretically, there are people who use no pronouns, and it's something I talk about when I do educating around pronouns. However, I haven't had anyone in my life until now, not using any pronouns; maybe all pronouns or like a very long set of various pronouns, but not just by name.

And so I've been doing that intentionally just to practice and to show other people I can make mistakes too. If you just make the effort, it gets so much easier. Anyway, I say that not to like earn ally points with you or something.

[00:10:25] Lianna Newman: No, you're good. No.

[00:10:27] Chris Angel Murphy: Cause it's just for folks listening. Yeah.

[00:10:29] Lianna Newman: Yeah. And that's the thing. I also say that in my training, like I just care that you're trying. Like I totally understand that it's hard to restructure sentences every single time - and I also know it's possible.

[00:10:41] Chris Angel Murphy: Exactly. And so that's why I just, I'm taking this as an opportunity to share, I'm humanizing allyship and that this is also work I'm doing. I am on this journey with you. That said, I realized I didn't have you do the intro (laughs) .

[00:10:59] Lianna Newman: I didn't know, I thought you were saving it for the end, and I was like, "Oh, okay. We do the intros at the end." (laughs)

[00:11:04] Chris Angel Murphy: I always start with that and I'm so distracted because ,I'm telling you ,my chaotic unhinged energy and I'm just like, too excited to see you. (Lianna laughs) So I forgot and then I remembered it as you were talking. I was like, "Oh wait-"

[00:11:17] Lianna Newman: Because I was like, "Wow, that editing is like oh - I would've, I wouldn't have thought you did it at the end, but that's great." (laughs)

[00:11:24] Chris Angel Murphy: Oh my gosh. I mean, well, yeah, I'm gonna edit it now, so it'll be like it had never happened.

[00:11:28] Lianna Newman: I'm so sorry.

[00:11:30] Chris Angel Murphy: It's not you. It's me. (both laugh)

as you can hear, we got that all sorted out because the intro was where it needed to be, but I just thought I'd leave that in because we were having such a good time. So there you are.

What brings you joy these days? Or what kind of joy do you create for yourself?

[00:11:48] Lianna Newman: Ooh, okay. . . So I will say for me, like joy is hard. It's really, really, really hard.

[00:11:58] Chris Angel Murphy: What makes it hard?

[00:11:59] Lianna Newman: I'm someone who I think is always looking outward for my joy rather than inward, cause I don't know how to manifest it inward. And so for me, I get joy from, like, being around people, right, and like talking to people.

Once again, not an extrovert, (laughs) just like a good conversation and quality time. Quality time is my love language. So I've been hanging out with a really good friend of mine. She embodies joy, in my opinion, (laughs) like, and so that's been really good.

Ways that I have done for myself, still not quite internal, but sort of, is like through my hobbies, honestly; like miniatures, Lego, I do a lot of really random stuff. Like I'm the kind of person who like sees a craft and I was like," I would like to learn how to do that. "And then I will buy a whole bunch of things and I will teach myself how to do it, and then I will move on.

The two that (laughs) -

[00:12:45] Chris Angel Murphy: That's just like every ADHDer I know.

[00:12:48] Lianna Newman: (laughs) Yes.

[00:12:48] Chris Angel Murphy: It's just like, I just had a like version - you know that "How Much is that Puppy or Doggy in the Window" or something?

[00:12:54] Lianna Newman: Yeah.

[00:12:54] Chris Angel Murphy: I had a whole other version that's like, "How Much is that Craft in the Window? (laughs)

[00:12:59] Lianna Newman: Listen, ever since Dollar Tree got a little craft section, I am in. (Chris Angel laughs) Although we are gonna call that "Dollar and a Quarter Tree", let's be very honest about that. But like, it was like Michael's was dangerous, because I did not like - that's a whole paycheck, whereas like Dollar Tree is like mini Michael's and I'm here for it.

So, you know, sometimes walking around Dollar Tree is actually just like, that brings me joy because I, I'm like, I can afford everything in here, that's kind of cool. (laughs)

[00:13:23] Chris Angel Murphy: Yeah, I mean, because even with Michael's throwing out a coupon every now and then, like yeah, it can get really expensive.

[00:13:30] Lianna Newman: Oh yeah.

[00:13:31] Chris Angel Murphy: And even Target has been pretty good about having, I think it's almost like a dollar section or closer to it.

[00:13:38] Lianna Newman: Yeah.

[00:13:38] Chris Angel Murphy: And I noticed it's a lot of stuff you could use for crafting

[00:13:41] Lianna Newman: Oh, I do have some of those things here today too. (laughs)

[00:13:44] Chris Angel Murphy: Well, there you go, .

[00:13:45] Lianna Newman: So, yeah, those are the ways that I've been manifesting joy.

[00:13:49] Chris Angel Murphy: So I'm wondering if this is how you might feel too, but I've realized one of the big mistakes I've made most of my life is trying to do healing isolated. And to me that looks like, I don't know, maybe I'm journaling or something. Maybe I'm seeing a therapist, but you know, and you could say that's community, but not really, I still think that's more of a solo journey.

[00:14:14] Lianna Newman: Yeah.

[00:14:15] Chris Angel Murphy: It's just like a booster pack or something. , I've now realized that there's just so much power in healing with community and - so I don't mean like trauma bonding with people or something like that.

[00:14:30] Lianna Newman: Yeah.

[00:14:31] Chris Angel Murphy: Yes. I need to do my own work and there is no reason why I can't heal through really happy, healthy relationships with friends or romantic or sexual partners or what, whatever that looks like. Just different people.

[00:14:44] Lianna Newman: Yeah. I hundred percent agree.

[00:14:47] Chris Angel Murphy: Yeah.

[00:14:47] Lianna Newman: Yeah.

[00:14:47] Chris Angel Murphy: Okay, cool. That's what I was thinking.

[00:14:49] Lianna Newman: Yeah.

[00:14:49] Chris Angel Murphy: Yeah. So like that quality time is just incredible because those moments are priceless to me.

[00:14:56] Lianna Newman: Same. Yeah.

[00:14:57] Chris Angel Murphy: So I wish I had figured that out much sooner. I'm glad I'm here now and - yeah, that's been hard and I think that's been a lot harder for people to tap into, especially with the pandemic.

[00:15:08] Lianna Newman: Yeah, the isolation part is really hard. I was like alone a lot, single mom situation, and so once I was like a teenager and able to survive on my own, like , I was home alone a lot and it definitely like affects me, I think, in my adulthood. So now when I'm like - people are like, "You need to take some time for yourself." I was like, "I've taken plenty of time." (laughs)

[00:15:29] Chris Angel Murphy: Yeah.

[00:15:30] Lianna Newman: And so I prefer to heal with community. I have my therapists, I have, you know, like my crafts, my hobbies, the things I can do solo while I like, think about all the things I want to do. (laughs) But there's something that, I think, can't really compare with like, just having fun and like hanging out with people who bring you joy.

[00:15:52] Chris Angel Murphy: Yes, because I've had a habit of not asking people to leave sooner who I should have asked to leave sooner.

[00:16:01] Lianna Newman: Yeah.

[00:16:01] Chris Angel Murphy: And then, not realizing that in holding those people in my life still, it kept other people from coming in because those spots were taken. Right?

[00:16:09] Lianna Newman: Yes.

[00:16:10] Chris Angel Murphy: We're getting very therapeutic here on this episode. (both laugh) The story I've heard too many times now is that people from historically underrepresented groups, especially Black people, get into STEM and then leave because they don't see anyone else who looks like them. I've had friends share this with me.

And just for folks listening, in case you're not aware, STEM is an acronym standing for science, technology, engineering, and mathematics.

I'm wondering if that's something that resonates with you?

[00:16:42] Lianna Newman: A hundred percent. I feel like you just like opened Pandora's Box of like my life since 2016. Oh no. Yeah. So when I went to like undergrad many years, I was surrounded by STEM majors and I didn't think I like really grasped it because like none of my friends were Black. I went to a PWI.

And so like, you know, like I had a computer science friend, I had a mechanical engineering friend, I had a mathematics friend. And I was like," Wow, this is great. I'm doing like communications , (laughs) like, cause that that's where we are." I actually wanted to go into film. That was why I was in communications.

Life happened. Worked at the Apple store for a little bit. That was fun. Really liked tech. That was actually like my first kind of like - I was already kind of techy just from like the film stuff, cause I had like taught myself how to edit and like all that.

And then when I made the switch from - after Apple, I went into HR - but when I went, made the switch from, HR to stem, I don't know what happened, but somewhere along the line, I like forgot (laughs) that STEM was like really homogenous.

And I was like, "Okay, I'm gonna change my life. Like, I'm gonna do this bootcamp. It's gonna be great". You know? And then I started looking around and I was like, "Oh, right, that part. Okay, gotta go find community. Got it."

And you know, one of the really interesting things was, like, after my bootcamp, I think was like - at my bootcamp graduation more specifically - was the first time that I basically like experienced what I'd be experiencing for the rest of, well, thus far in my tech career.

And that was, we had to have these capstone projects. So you built a website on your own and then employers would come and look at it and maybe offer you a job. So mines was more functional than pretty. That was always my thing. I wanted to be backend.

And what I noticed was I watched the inter - like the employers walking around, right. And like, I think one (laughs) one came over to me and I was like, really? And like there were some other nonmen in my class, like two , and I also saw them get skipped over. And I was like, "fascinating", because I'm always interested in just like human behavior, like the choices people make and the fact that like I know that I would not make these choices.

And so I'm like, what's going into this? And I think probably in that moment I was just, "Oh, this is not very nice. Like, why aren't you coming to look at my app? This thing is really functional and great. It doesn't look beautiful, but it works." (laughs)

And what my, like, experience since then has just been a lot of, like I've been laughed at when I told someone I was a software engineer once. I've been asked how old I am, which I'm always very disturbed by because I'm like, "Why?" Like what does that have to do with anything (laughs)

Like, I, I found out, through a friend of a friend, that I had actually submitted something for my very, very first coding job, which was an internship, and my code was actually better than this other candidate (laughs) and they were considering offering me the full-time job. And the only reason I didn't get it was cause this other candidate had worked there a year before and they knew him and he was a white man.

We don't say that last part. (laughs) We can; please leave that in .

[00:19:56] Chris Angel Murphy: (laughs) Okay.

[00:19:57] Lianna Newman: But it was like a lot of that, like I went and worked at a coding bootcamp. I passed that interview like flying colors. I talked to 10 people and out of that 10, one didn't want me, and that one was the founder.

And like someone had to literally like - wanna talk about allyship - someone there was like, "Well, you know, like Lianna went to another bootcamp, so maybe Lianna could bring like those secrets here."

Only black person on staff. . (laughs)

[00:20:24] Chris Angel Murphy: Oh my gosh.

[00:20:26] Lianna Newman: And so like in 2018, I went in - I worked in blockchain for a little bit. What it did allow me to do was like go into different communities. It gave me access to a lot of different things. And I got to see like younger versions of myself, (laughs) like just like young Black kids in tech.

And I remember very specifically this one person. She was like- I was like at a Mentors and Mimosa event - and there was like a bunch of guys riding around me because they saw the company and they're like, "Oh, we wanna get a job." And I saw this like Black girl like in the back, right, and she's like trying to get by, like the guys are kind of just like crowding in.

And I was like, "Excuse me, guys." (both laugh) Like, I literally, like parted them. I was like, "I know, I know you all wanna talk to me. I'm so sorry. Like someone back here has a question. I gotta get to her." You know? And so I talked to her and she was just like done.

She was like, "I hate this. I hate having to fight. Like I hate, like all this stuff." And I was like, "Oh my gosh. Okay. Connect with me on LinkedIn, because clearly what you need is community. I mean, honestly we just need to change the field, but until then you need community." (laughs)

And unfortunately she did end up leaving the field, cause I, I stayed connected with her on LinkedIn and we messaged back and forth a couple times and then I found out she just like wasn't into it.

But I wonder like how much experiences like that, like played into her decision and I'm, I'm pretty sure they, they did very heavily. Like, you're just trying to get a job. You don't wanna have to like, fight every single day. (laughs) I mean, now of course I found, I, I feel like I sound like one of those, like movie quotes, like, "All my life I've had to-" you know. And so like, yeah, that actually really sucks.

And a lot of being in tech has been that fighting, like fighting to be recognized, fighting to be gendered correctly, like all of these things.

I have wanted to leave the field many times. The one reason I haven't is I love working remotely. And you know, before the pandemic, like working remotely was not a thing and that's why I wanted a tech job. I wanted to work with computers and I wanted to like be at home. Mission accomplished!

And I've found it really difficult. I've found that I've had to advocate for myself. I've found that I had to do DEI work on the side literally just to keep myself sane.

And so I kind of forgot the original question, but I feel like I answered it. (laughs)

[00:22:45] Chris Angel Murphy: Well, no, I just opened Pandora's box for you. (Lianna laughs) I wanted to leave it super open for you to share anything that you felt moved to share.

There are ways we can address it, right? There's the disparity in wages, which already makes it hard because financially these bootcamps can be thousands of dollars. I've seen that there are different scholarships to help afford these bootcamps, for people who are Black or LGBTQ+ or something like that, it's still not enough.

And then to your point, when you're one of the only people there, if not the only person, there's this, like you said, additional pressure maybe to feel like you need to help other people come in. Probably, so you're not the only person and maybe you want to pay it forward.

I mean, yeah, there's just so many things that would have to happen; mentorship programs and intentionally seeking out diverse candidates and not just like as something to check a box, "We did it." Genuinely check your biases as a company and what's happening in your hiring pipeline. Who's making it through and why? Who's in the room making those decisions?

This is certainly something I've seen happen with different companies. They'll hire people that they see themselves in or that are very agreeable. They see things the same way. I've always thought that was unfortunate because as you mentioned with your bootcamp example, you having learned something differently can be a huge bonus. Maybe it's something that's more efficient.

Hire people who challenge you. It's a good thing, not just challenging you for the sake of it, but because you want your product or service, or whatever to be better; whatever your company is doing. I think it's this really multifaceted issue that I could see people getting exhausted and leaving because carving out that space for yourself and others is exhausting.

I mean, that's why I've gotten out of working traditional nine to five jobs. I was always tokenized and I would have to help them get ready to have more people like me there.

[00:25:06] Lianna Newman: Mm-mmm.

[00:25:07] Chris Angel Murphy: So cool. Let's do Pronouns 101, Trans 101, LGBTQ+ 101. It's great and exciting because it's my wheelhouse and I'm passionate about it, and I'm also not getting paid anything extra.

[00:25:21] Lianna Newman: Yeah.

[00:25:22] Chris Angel Murphy: It is literally mostly so I can stop having the one off conversations.

[00:25:29] Lianna Newman: (laughs) Yes.

[00:25:30] Chris Angel Murphy: Because that's even more exhausting, right? If I can just have one large conversation about this and then we're all on the same page. Okay, cool. This is exhausting. And then when the systems are already stacked against you, when it's already rigged-

Like, once you're in there, it can feel like, "Am I even making a difference? Am I just putting myself through all of this for nothing?" There's so many issues that have to be addressed to really change this for the better.

[00:26:00] Lianna Newman: I agree with you a hundred percent. Like the thing is, like when, when companies talk about like diversity and inclusion, right, my thing with that is, "Is it real or is it performative?" Right? Because there are so many ways to perform diversity and inclusion. I - my internship - I'm like on their website because they had three black people, two of which were interns. Like, "What? Why am I on your website? I was here for like three months. If even." (laughs)

Like, intern?

[00:26:28] Chris Angel Murphy: Well, we know why you're on there.

[00:26:29] Lianna Newman: I mean, yes, yes.

[00:26:30] Chris Angel Murphy: But yeah.

[00:26:31] Lianna Newman: Even my blockchain company, I have no problem putting them on blast. Like literally had a whole thing of like, they let a bunch of people go, myself included, one day and then later the following year all those people who didn't work there anymore were in these videos that they used for Black History Month. And it was like, "What are you actually doing though? " (laughs)

Like this is not okay. And so one of the things that I have done and one of like my favorite, like events, community organizing thing, is this recognition that like community is what is one of the things that can like, help keep folks in these fields as (laughs) the microaggressions are trying to push them out.

I, I volunteer with a organization called Out in Tech, and through that and through another organization, Out in Stem - I'm in all the "outs" and the "STEMs", and the "techs." (both laugh)

[00:27:21] Chris Angel Murphy: It sounds like.

[00:27:22] Lianna Newman: I connected with Howard University's oSTEM group. We like, worked together to put together an event - similar to the Mentors and Mimosas - but this was like Mentors and Mocktails. Cause not everybody can drink.

[00:27:33] Chris Angel Murphy: Yes.

[00:27:34] Lianna Newman: And what we ended up doing was like, I got, like, four Black professionals; one in each letter. So, a scientist, a technician, a mathematics and engineer. And we created, and this was during the pandemic, so I created like four Zoom breakouts - well, like Out in Tech helped me do it - but like four Zoom breakouts.

And then like all the students, like whatever STEM you aligned with, like you would go and sit in that breakout room and learn from someone who was not only Black, but also queer, right. And so to get like a real picture of like: you're going into this field, talk to someone who's in it. Talk to them, ask them all the questions.

Like "What is it like to be out at work while also Black?" (laughs) Like "You already, there's one-" you're dealing with one identity already being an issue. And then like, "Here, here's another identity." How do you take up space?

And, it was a phenomenal event, very exciting. Love the mentors who came out and did it, but more things like that, right? Because like, I don't know that before that event where I met that young woman that I talked to on LinkedIn - I don't know if she knew. Like, I don't know if community was even something that like really occurred to her? Cause like, it was an HBCU event, so like it was like "HBCU and Tech."

But like community can be phenomenal in terms of like helping stay in these spaces that can be very toxic, just to be frank, and yeah. Yeah.

[00:28:59] Chris Angel Murphy: Another piece of it, too, is that when you see visible diversity in upper leadership; I don't think it's easy for them. They have so much more to lose.

[00:29:14] Lianna Newman: Yeah.

[00:29:15] Chris Angel Murphy: Then you start getting into the whole "good minority" myth. Maybe they don't say things that they want to say because they don't want to rock the boat. But they'd also like to see other people coming in. I've seen that tension with leaders before. I can tell that they wanna say something that they just don't feel like they can. It's hard to watch because this should be an exciting time and thing for them.

Sometimes we're still doing things like celebrating the first Black person to be in a particular role. And while I think it's okay to celebrate those wins, we absolutely deserve better. I just see how much more they have to lose when they're in these positions. And I don't know what the answer solution is here cause these issues are layered. And also because people need different things because: not a monolith.

[00:30:07] Lianna Newman: Not a monolith.

[00:30:09] Chris Angel Murphy: It's also complicated. Like, why am I in this field? (both laugh)

[00:30:15] Lianna Newman: Because we - (laughs) cause I wanna make it better.

[00:30:18] Chris Angel Murphy: Yeah. We just have such a long way to go.

[00:30:22] Lianna Newman: I'll be honest, I don't know that, like, I don't know that I feel like I'll see significant change in my lifetime, however long that may be. And I also know that, like, what's the phrase, like "Every journey begins with like a single step" or something?

So, I don't know, I feel like all the people who are doing this work are taking those little steps that eventually will get us there. At least that's the hope.

[00:30:48] Chris Angel Murphy: Being in the tech space since 2016, has there been anything you've seen that's changed for the better or that you've been particularly excited about?

[00:31:01] Lianna Newman: I've seen a lot of documentaries come out. (both laugh) I know that was not the answer anyone was expecting. But no, like, I've seen a lot of documentaries come out that are like highlighting the - kind of like what we were just talking about - like, "what gets missed when certain people are not in the room?"

Not recently, but like maybe a couple years ago, I know one came out called "Coded Bias", right? And it was talking about how by simply not having like diverse people, even just touching the app, like applications, there's bias being, like, coded into it as a result. I think the main thing that like kicked it off for the person that the documentary focused on was that a facial recognition thing couldn't recognize her face and she was Black and when she put a white mask on, then it could. Right?

And it was like, how did you miss that? (laughs) Right. And so I love seeing like more people coming out and like finding ways to kind of pinpoint these things and - cause I think it's like one thing to say it, right, but then when you start to see it - like why are self-driving cars hitting people? (laughs) Like, what's happening? What did we miss?

I would say like that's one of the industry changes that I've really liked. I've also liked seeing the groups that have been emerging. When I started, I know that there was like a few just like nonprofits or also for-profits, but like community groups that were emerging to not only help people, like, get into these boot camps and join this field, but to also make sure that they were supported.

So for example, I don't know when it started, so please don't quote me on this, but like, I know like Lesbians Who Tech, which I had joined - I joined anything. I was like, "Is it queer? Is it Black? Is it tech? Okay." You know. (laughs) And I remember when that organization started up and it was like - that's where I actually heard about the bootcamps, was cause I was like, "Oh, I'm in tech." Like, or, or I wasn't even in tech - how did I?

Oh, I do remember this. Okay. I found out because I had joined (laughs) this like random feminist maker space - New York City - a nd so I would go there. And they would like talk and I would listen and then they would say things and laugh and I'm like, "I'm gonna write that down. I don't know why it's funny, but I'll find out." (laughs) You know?

And then eventually one of them mentioned Lesbians Who Tech, and then I went to Lesbians Who Tech, and then that's when I found out about coding bootcamps. So it was very interesting like trail, but like that was all community, right? Like even if I had known about coding bootcamps, like not seeing someone like myself or like someone within a community like doing it - I don't think it would've registered, similar to how I didn't register when I was in college.

[00:33:32] Chris Angel Murphy: Something that came up in our conversation was awards. Awards, especially with "woman" in the title such as "Woman of the Year." Something that's come back up again recently is that Sam Smith had asked the Brits back in 2021 to introduce gender neutral categories - not that long ago, right - then the backlash hit because all of the nominees ended up being men or male.

I've seen discourse blaming Sam Smith for this, rather than taking a look at the organizers behind the Brits; what they can do to better diversify these categories, since, to me there is clearly a bias. Why is it that they think only men, and probably mostly white men, if not all white men, (laughs) are the only ones deserving of an award, like "Best Artist."

So holding space for all of the complexity of this, where do you land with these kinds of issues? Do you think we need categories like "men", "women", and a special "gender neutral category"? Or, yeah.

[00:34:47] Lianna Newman: Yeah. I see the, like the separation of categories as a result of just the fact that if it doesn't exist, unfortunately, the bias goes towards white men, right? Like, cause at the end of the day (laughs) like there's a lot of things that white men don't have to deal with, and that's why it is easy for them to like - easier, I should say - to achieve certain things, right? (laughs) Like, Just plain and simple.

I would love if all I could do is just code and think about coding, and I didn't have to think about the fact that someone just called me "she", I didn't have to think about like this thing. (laughs) I didn't have to like - that would be, what I imagine to be a very fulfilling life. (laughs) To just be able to focus on what you wanna do and nothing else.

And so I think that there is a necessity for the, like the separation of the awards. But I think in the same vein, like we do need to start to move towards like: how do we stop making that the default, right? How do we stop making men the default? How do we stop making specifically white men the default? Like how can we, as a society, I guess (laughs) just like acknowledge that all that comes with those who are not white men? , How can we get to a point where we can recognize and value everyone equally? Like I guess that is really the goal, right?

And we have not reached equality. We have not even gotten close. And so until we do, until we actively start working on that, I think we still have to have this separation of awards. I personally, I know like when we last, like we first spoke, I had told you like I had won two awards that have "women" in the title.

[00:36:31] Chris Angel Murphy: (beep-boop) Let's pause a moment. If a voice in your head just said, "Oh, okay. That's the real gender." No, just no. In sharing this vulnerable part of Lianna's story, we're not gonna misgender my friend. I say this because I know that sometimes when new information like this is presented, our brain wants to glitch out and latch onto it.

We are hardwired, thanks to society, to box people into binary categories that may or may not fit. Lianna is not a woman. Full stop. Send that voice off on a cloud far, far away and do not put Lianna in a box labeled "woman." All right, thank you very much. Let's continue.

[00:37:11] Lianna Newman: For me, like, it was a little bit like - it was hard to like know that I did these things, but there was no alternative award for it, right? And when I had someone like nominate me, I was like, "Oh, hey, like this is a STEM award. It's for women of color. I match two of the three criteria." (laughs) And so like, I don't want to take anything away from anyone. Like I think that, like women spaces - that are trans-inclusive - (laughs) are, are important. I really, really do.

[00:37:46] Chris Angel Murphy: Yeah.

[00:37:46] Lianna Newman: And so it's just kind of like this weird thing where I have to either just be okay with it? I mean, I guess I could get the award and cover up the word "woman" - or do I like accept the award and then do this like long caveat, like, "By the way, I actually don't identify as a woman. Thank you so much. I don't identify as a man either, but this is all I can get." You know? (laughs)

Like I don't and so I do wonder - I don't know the solution. I don't, and I'm okay to say that (laughs) . I do not know the solution. But I think that, I love when they're - I feel like a lot of conferences that I go to that are like queer-centric, so like the oSTEM conference, they didn't gender their awards. It was like "Volunteer of the Year." It was like, "What did you do?" And I wish that we could get to a place like that.

[00:38:29] Chris Angel Murphy: It feels like the same argument of, well, "Why are we seeing people who menstruate? You're taking the word woman from me." And it's like, we're not, we're expanding (said in sync with Lianna) and we're acknowledging that there are people missing from this conversation who also need these resources. That's what it comes back down to for me.

I do love to see titles of awards and acknowledgements become gender neutral because I do think that's where we should head, because I don't want to be some third category.

[00:39:05] Lianna Newman: Yeah.

[00:39:06] Chris Angel Murphy: That becomes very othering, and I don't think that's the answer either. While I don't want to see white man after white man continue to win awards in these spaces, I think that's why a lot of smaller organizations are starting to pop up.

Like, podcasting is a good example. I just came across a new podcast award ceremony, and it's only for women and nonbinary people. It feels weird though being grouped with women because that doesn't feel like the move either to me.

[00:39:42] Lianna Newman: Yeah.

[00:39:43] Chris Angel Murphy: I see you nodding. That feels crunchy to me. I mean, I guess in the meantime, until the people who know how to deal with this stuff better are in those positions where they can get in front of those who need to hear the solutions, I guess that does mean that we have to make our own award ceremonies and spaces.

It goes back to the exhaustion of moving around in this world and existing.

[00:40:11] Lianna Newman: Even going back to like Black Wall Street, right? Like it was a result of like, "They're never gonna see us as equal, so we gotta make our own right?" There's power in doing it, and I also know it means that like everyone who's over here making the thing, isn't in the fight anymore when there are not alternatives.

This is what is going to end up happening; is just this creation of like a space that doesn't exist until it does or until things are equal.

[00:40:41] Chris Angel Murphy: I could see both things being true. We have these organizations catering to specific needs and also folks doing work in the - or on the front lines to make these changes on larger scales.

It makes me think of my friend Kay, who was a guest I had on the podcast too, and he told me about how they don't like being called a person of color or things like that because we're lumping people together that don't necessarily have the same experiences. I also get how and why those came to be.

Because of being friends with Kay and seeing what she said on posts and things like that, I've been thinking about it a lot more because of him. And it just feels so shitty to group a bunch of people together that again, are not a monolith and have different experiences. Even if we were looking at people who are Black, there's no one Black experience.

[00:41:48] Lianna Newman: Yeah.

[00:41:49] Chris Angel Murphy: There's even award ceremonies for things like that too, and I just - it's crunchy. They're not groups I'm a part of and so I don't, and I shouldn't, have a say in what those look like.

[00:42:04] Lianna Newman: It's the othering; it's the othering that you were talking about., cause that's what it is. It's like, "Okay, well we have this 'women' one and then there's 'women of color', so we're gonna go ahead and put you guys all together. There you go." (laughs) Like it's this other.

[00:42:16] Chris Angel Murphy: Yep. I think the moment I was first cognizant of this as a child, but not realizing that that's what was happening; we had access to cable. There was MTV, a country music station, VH1, and then BET; and they were segregated, which I thought was interesting.

[00:42:37] Lianna Newman: Yeah.

[00:42:39] Chris Angel Murphy: It's one thing when you have a genre, like country music, to see that BET had to carve out its own space because MTV ,and I think VH1, weren't doing great jobs of having different representation of artists on their channels.

[00:43:00] Lianna Newman: Yeah.

[00:43:01] Chris Angel Murphy: Pretty quickly on MTV stopped playing music. (both laugh)

[00:43:03] Lianna Newman: Yeah.

[00:43:04] Chris Angel Murphy: So like that was a whole thing itself. They took a deviation going into reality television.

[00:43:12] Lianna Newman: Yes. I remember.

[00:43:14] Chris Angel Murphy: I don't share this very often, but I recently remembered that MTV used to approach me on MySpace, trying to get me to be on one of their dating shows. You're not ready for my queer ass.

[00:43:26] Lianna Newman: No! What? (laughs)

[00:43:27] Chris Angel Murphy: Don't do this to me. (laughs) They did have gay episodes. I just didn't need to be involved in that.

[00:43:32] Lianna Newman: Yeah, yeah.

[00:43:33] Chris Angel Murphy: I politely declined. Thank goodness. Poor, awkward baby Chris Angel; just trying to figure out who they are in this wild world. (Lianna laughs) I do believe there needs to be sacred spaces for different groupings of people, so that they can have safer spaces to exist in, and can talk about certain experiences, if they want to or not. Because they can also just exist and have a place where they don't have to compartmentalize who they are. Maybe you have some shared experiences, and then have Black joy together.

[00:44:11] Lianna Newman: Well, it's - (laughs)

[00:44:12] Chris Angel Murphy: So it could just be about that and not the othering.

[00:44:15] Lianna Newman: Well, it's funny you said that because like through Out in Tech, I did create a group that is so specific (laughs) and it's literally, it's called the Black Mental Health Support Group, and it's like people who are black and queer and in tech.

And this came about because I had tried to do sort of like, kind of like a healing space meeting with the broader QT-BIPOC channel that we had in Out in Tech. And what I found was that like I was trying to create this thing to like elevate like Black voices, but everyone was just like, "So how can we support you? How can we support you?"

And it was just like, "Okay, wait. But like I don't, I don't want other people to talk. I want like Black people to talk because it's - we're all home and everyone's looking at us cause it's 2020, you know. Like I'm getting offers for pizza that I did not ask for." (laughs) So like it was just like, let's have this space.

And then when I separated it out, I did see a difference; cause like now there's only Black people in the room and so everyone started talking. Like everyone was like, "Oh, I'm like dealing with this and this and this and this." And it was like, "okay." Like I do understand the need for certain things.

And when it comes to like this idea of like awards, right, that feels different because then it's like, I don't know, it's like bigger. It's out there and - yeah, I just, I don't know. I, sorry. That was not as eloquent as I wanted it to be, but that's okay. (laughs )

[00:45:39] Chris Angel Murphy: It's all good. These are crunchy topics. I mean, this is totally embarrassing and I'm gonna share it anyway, but in my early twenties, when I first came out as gender queer and then later on nonbinary - nonbinary is where I'm at right now - I started going to barbershops because it was gender affirming for me. I didn't realize there were different ones.

[00:46:05] Lianna Newman: Mm-mmm.

[00:46:05] Chris Angel Murphy: It just wasn't part of my experience and you already know where this is going. Growing up in LA a barbershop was a barbershop. I didn't see any differences between them. And then I very quickly learned by accident that there are Black barbershops and that white people should not go to them. I want to say that only happened once, but it definitely happened twice. (Lianna laughs) Now I know the signs to look for.

[00:46:28] Lianna Newman: I love this.

[00:46:28] Chris Angel Murphy: (laughs) And it was one of those things where it's like, I walk in and I'm like, (laughs) "Ah, fuck. Am I an asshole if I walk out or is that the most polite thing to do here?" (Lianna laughs) There was one time a barbershop opened down the street from me and I was like, "Oh, this is amazing. I can walk there." It was like 50 steps from where I was living, if even, and again, didn't realize: Black barbershop. I just sat there in the chair so awkward and uncomfortable, but I tried to play it like everything was fine.

It wasn't until it was like the last two minutes of the haircut that the barber was like, "So, have you gotten your haircut by a Black guy before?" (laughs)

[00:47:10] Lianna Newman: No. (laughs)

he waited until the last two minutes. (both laugh)

He - listen, he was like, "If this is gonna be awkward, at least it'll only be awkward for two minutes." (laughs)

[00:47:18] Chris Angel Murphy: But it was already awkward, friend. It was already awkward. I was like, "Why? Why?! I promise, I understand that I fucked up." (both laugh) And even the people who came in after me, I assume men, sat there in their chairs, quiet as fuck. One of my Black friends was like, "Didn't you see the 'Barbershop' movie?" And I was like, "When is Hollywood based in reality?! No, I didn't see that movie." (both laugh)

[00:47:46] Lianna Newman: Ironically, I did just show that movie to like my ex not that long ago. (both laugh )

[00:47:52] Chris Angel Murphy: I mean, I should still watch it, but I just have so much shame that I fucked that up twice. That's a whole thing, right? I didn't realize how important it is. So when you were talking about Black mental health in particular, I associate that now with Black barbershops.

[00:48:12] Lianna Newman: Mm-hmm.

[00:48:13] Chris Angel Murphy: (laughs) So now like I know better than to go in there, again, I know the signs now. (laughs) I am so sorry. I'm so sorry. I did not know, but that's the thing, right? I didn't have anyone to guide me through those things, because it just wasn't part of my experience before. I get why there needs to be Black salons, Black barbershops, because also like the hair type is very different, and you have to know how to work with it. Otherwise, mistakes will be made. You know, and like even how to maintain dreadlocks and just things like that.

[00:48:51] Lianna Newman: We're actually moving towards saying "locks" now.

[00:48:54] Chris Angel Murphy: Oh, sorry. Thank you.

[00:48:54] Lianna Newman: Yeah.

[00:48:55] Chris Angel Murphy: I did not hear that.

[00:48:56] Lianna Newman: Oh yeah. It's like apparently the "dread" was like "dreadful."

[00:49:00] Chris Angel Murphy: Oh!

[00:49:00] Lianna Newman: Yeah. It's like this whole thing. So yeah. Now "locks" are the thing that we say.

[00:49:05] Chris Angel Murphy: I don't think I ever stopped to think about why there were differences.

[00:49:09] Lianna Newman: I didn't either.

[00:49:10] Chris Angel Murphy: Because I've heard of "locks" before.

[00:49:11] Lianna Newman: Mm-hmm.

[00:49:12] Chris Angel Murphy: But then I think of Locks of Love.

[00:49:13] Lianna Newman: Aw.

[00:49:14] Chris Angel Murphy: Which is a whole other thing, right? Yeah.

[00:49:15] Lianna Newman: I do know what you're talking about. Yes. (laughs)

[00:49:17] Chris Angel Murphy: Yeah. So a whole other thing. So, so much learning is happening right now.

[00:49:21] Lianna Newman: Go for it.

[00:49:22] Chris Angel Murphy: But I appreciate it because unless we talk about these things, how else was I supposed to know?

[00:49:27] Lianna Newman: You weren't supposed to.

[00:49:29] Chris Angel Murphy: Sometimes we are just awkwardly stumbling through life, figuring this stuff out.

[00:49:32] Lianna Newman: Yeah. No, that's real. All of that is very, very real. Like I - all of my partners thus far have been white. I grew up in a predominantly white town, and they're the only ones who messaged me back on the apps, so (laughs) .

So I talk about like, interracial dating - I actually shot a documentary that I never released, it's a whole thing. But one of the things that became very apparent is that like, as a person of color, I was very much taught how to interact with and how to exist within white culture. But as I am dating people, it is very, very apparent that they were not taught how to exist outside of their culture.

And so like one of the things that, like when you said that about the barbershop, I was like, "yeah," I don't know that anyone would like. Even if you like saw like, "Oh, there's like a lot of Black people here." Like, you might just think there's a lot of Black people there, I don't know. But it's like, it's not really something that's taught. You didn't grow up watching the movie "Barbershop." Like, (laughs) like -

[00:50:28] Chris Angel Murphy: No, no, I didn't.

[00:50:29] Lianna Newman: Please watch it. (laughs)

[00:50:30] Chris Angel Murphy: But I'll watch it now.

[00:50:31] Lianna Newman: No, I - like the person who I was just most recently dating, like we actually had, I'm like, "Okay, so since I know your culture and you know your culture, you're about to learn my culture cause that's how this has to work." And so like I've been showing her movies that like now she can talk to patrons about at, you know, her job and stuff.

And it's been very educational, but it also is like filling in a lot of gaps when she doesn't understand like why I feel the way about certain things when I do certain things. It's like watching this and like kind of understanding more about like, what is it to be Black in America , (laughs) like as, as much as you can from a TV show or a movie - but it's been helpful.

[00:51:07] Chris Angel Murphy: What's one allyship tip you'd like for everyone listening to consider?

[00:51:14] Lianna Newman: Listen to listen, not to respond. Sometimes when I am either - I don't wanna wanna say explaining, but sometimes I am explaining my identity - people will do the thing where like, they're like, "Oh, well let me play devil's advocate and ask you this." And I was like, "But what if you didn't? What if you just listen to who I'm telling you I am? And then you just like figured it out on your own and you didn't ask me any other questions that might make me uncomfortable or -" You know.

I think also like just - I've had this thing that's been happening at work a lot where like I'll write something and then I have people like rewriting it and it's like, "Well, why are you doing that though?" And it's not like there's spelling errors, cause that's fine, like fix it. (laughs) But it's like they literally are just rewriting and it's like" You're not listening to me and you're not listening to the way that I want to present this."

I once had somebody delete, I wrote "believe black people" and they deleted it. And I was like, what are you doing ? (laughs) Like what are you doing? But like, to really, like when people are talking, when people are telling you about things you don't know; our natural thing is like, "Okay, we're listening and we're, we're gonna respond." Right? And then sometimes we start thinking about the response and we're not even thinking about what was just said.

My tip is to just, just listen and sometimes like sit with it; just sit with what you're being told. It's okay. You don't have to respond right away (laughs) or at all.

[00:52:42] Chris Angel Murphy: Well, that was a journey. I hope you were able to laugh along with us. Lianna, thank you so much for your time and vulnerability and especially your patience, because like I waited a really long time to reach out to you again before I was finally ready to talk about having an episode.

So just thank you. You are a delight. I am looking forward to being friends. I appreciate your corrections, your laughter, just everything. It was such a treat to chat. Thank you, thank you, thank you.

Some of y'all know that Allyship is a Verb, was recently nominated for two Ambies. We didn't win this time.

However, my new friend Anna won for the podcast Queer News. So congrats Anna! It was such a treat to fly over to Vegas and meet some podcasting pals I haven't met in real life yet. Overall, I was just honored that we were nominated and wanted to take a moment to also say "hello" to the new listeners.

Hello, (laughs) new listeners.

Oh, why am I so awkward? Anyway, also, just a few more Thanks before we get into the final three self-reflection questions. But I wanna say: thank you, Destiny, and thank you, Meredith! (both in soaring, ethereal voice) They're the newest monthly supporters who helped me to keep this show going. And thank you to the folks buying merch, like the stickers and wearables. I appreciate y'all too.

That said, I recently had to run a fundraiser to cover the costs of the rest of this season, and I can't thank y'all enough. You really came through. Thank you so much to everyone who chipped in any amount, and you know, for the folks donating a bit extra to help cover my costs, to fly out to Vegas for the trip to the awards ceremony.

The podcast largely comes out of my own pocket, so that's why it really makes a difference every time there's a new monthly supporter, or a new person grabbing a hoodie, or something. And thanks to those of you who share my podcast, some of y'all have reached out to let me know that you share it with your clients, your friends, or whomever, and that also means so much. I wish I could give all of you high fives, fist bumps or hugs, so just know that.

And yes, that first self-reflection question was a call-in. The kink community is so stigmatized and shamed. You're only gonna learn more about the kink community with me. So please take the time to listen to the last episode if you haven't already, and explore why you skipped it. Take some time and really reflect on that. And I can tell because the numbers don't lie.

Alright, let's wrap this up.

4. Do I have people in my field I can look up to who look like me?

5. Do I think that awards should be gendered? Why or why not?

6. When's the last time I intentionally took the time to learn about a different culture?

Visit AllyshipIsAVerb.com for any resources and a full transcript of the episode. And remember, sometimes allyship means listen to listen, not to respond.