[00:00:00] Charlie Ocean: Well, hello there. I'm Charlie Ocean, and my pronouns are they/them. Welcome to Allyship is a Verb, a podcast for people practicing allyship, for the LGBTQ+ community, and beyond!

[00:00:25] Tiffany Rossdale: Hello, my name is Tiffany Rossdale, and my pronouns are she/her.

[00:00:32] Charlie Ocean: Before we dive in, I want to take a moment to say thank you, Len Meyer! (voice echoes) Len contributed to the Indiegogo campaign. Thank you so much for your support, kind friend.

I'm so excited to have Tiffany on because today, we are virtually traveling to Tokyo, Japan, to learn about her experience as a transgender woman, especially as someone who emigrated from the Philippines. And she's also had experiences here in the States on her travels that she'll share with us.

It was a treat to have her on because I was also on her podcast, the "Breakfast with Tiffany Show." She is such a kind and gracious host, and I had a wonderful experience from start to finish. I hope you'll give her podcast a listen.

I don't even know how to introduce her fully because she's a shapeshifter who has tapped into so many different fields over the years - so let's just get to it.

But first, self-reflection questions; here are three to consider while you're listening and be sure to stick around after for three more to take with you.

1. Which famous trans women, if any, can I name? Do I know any from my country?

2. Do I have community to lean on right now?

3. If I can remember, what did I want my life to look like as a child?

Content warning for some transphobia. And now, the conversation.

You are transgender and a transformational life coach. What does that intersection mean to you?

[00:02:16] Tiffany Rossdale: Being a transgender and a transformational life coach is a powerful intersection for me. I can empathize with the unique challenges faced by transgender individuals. And I can offer guidance from personal experience. I think it's about providing a safe and understanding space for my clients to explore their own journey towards self-discovery and empowerment.

And I've been through so many different phases of my life, and a lot of it comes from struggles from my childhood, dealing with my family situations. Being the eldest amongst my siblings, it was my responsibility to make my younger siblings - to make them feel safe and have hope that we all can have a better life.

Then while dealing with that, I was also in a confusion of my gender identity. And mind you, I was I was five, six years old during that time and not being accepted by my family, living with different relatives, then moving out from my mom's families to be with my father, whose job is a security guard and could only afford to rent an apartment in a slum area of Manila.

Then, my mother took us back again - there's a lot going back and forth and living with different people, meeting different people, as every year is a new, new surroundings, new schools for us, changing of places. I think it was a lot to deal with (laughs) at a very young age.

Then when I moved here in Japan, coming from the Philippines, that's when I started my transition, going for different careers. I started from working as a factory worker to a showgirl, doing hostessing, and after that, I started my entrepreneurial career.

And now very active in advocating for our community, doing my weekly podcast, which is a "Breakfast with Tiffany Show," supporting different nonprofit organizations as a leader, and then entering the entertainment industry, again, but this time being an actor.

So I think with all this transitions and experiences I've had, I can use all of that by helping others through my coaching.

[00:04:40] Charlie Ocean: Given that you're basically a change expert because of all these transitions that you've gone through, (both laugh) what's like one source of support that's helped you through these consistently, or is there one thing that's helped you consistently through these?

[00:04:57] Tiffany Rossdale: I think the difficulties. I think that helped me having that hope and faith I can live a life that I want to strive for. And during those times, while navigating all these different careers and all that, having the right community, having the right people around me, that motivated me to - I wouldn't be able to transition and do all that without anyone providing me information and leading me and sharing all these things.

So I think my surroundings and the people around me are very important.

[00:05:33] Charlie Ocean: Sometimes, when we're kids, cause you were talking about knowing who you were around five or six, sometimes when we're kids, we have this idea of what we want our life to look like. Did your dreams come true, or have they even maybe changed since anything that you dreamed of when you were younger?

[00:05:52] Tiffany Rossdale: When I was a kid, I never - mind you, that was like late 80s, right, like early 90s - and back in the Philippines, we didn't have much of representation, so I don't really know who I am going to be in the future. (laughs) I know that I was unique and different. I knew right then that I will have a life that I want, but I didn't see it, I wasn't able to see it clearly that who I wanted to be.

Because also part of living in the Philippines, we're very influenced by American culture. I'd been watching a lot of MTVs and all, you know, like movies from America. I thought that one day I can be in America and live an American dream. (laughs) That was my dream back then. Over the time, it changed because I was able to travel in America while I was here in Japan and I realized America is not, it's not the place for me to live; I prefer living in Japan.

So yeah, it changes. But I think one dream that I had remembering then was to have that American dream.

[00:06:58] Charlie Ocean: What is different about America that you're like, "No, thank you. I will stay in Tokyo." (both laugh) You can be honest.

[00:07:07] Tiffany Rossdale: Yes, I want to be honest. (laughs)

[00:07:08] Charlie Ocean: It's totally fine.

[00:07:08] Tiffany Rossdale: I want to be honest about it. (laughs) I love America because I've been in America so many times - I've been to LA, New York; I love Miami. All these big cities, right? I've been able to visit them. I've been able to explore and I love how the culture is very diverse and everything is big. Everything is, you know, like everything is extravagant in America compared to Japan.

But what really made me think that Japan is the place to live is my safety. I've been in America a couple of times. where once I revealed myself as a transgender to someone that I meet while I was traveling in America and I almost got killed because of who I am. And I realized like it's dangerous for me to live in America and Living in Japan for 29 years, I never experienced that at all.

So I thought that safety was very important to me and that's why I'm still here in Japan.

[00:08:09] Charlie Ocean: In terms of public opinion, or social acceptance in Japan. How have you seen attitudes toward transgender individuals and the LGBTQ+ community, broadly, evolve during your time so far? Has it changed much?

[00:08:29] Tiffany Rossdale: I think I've witnessed a gradual shift in attitudes towards transgender individuals in the LGBTQ+ community. Especially during the pandemic, when we all had that time of reflection. And a big part of that also was the situation during that time there in America, when the Me Too movement and the Black Lives Matter was happening; then events like Transgender Day of Remembrance, Transgender Day of Visibility. I think all of this reached Japan and people here started talking about all these issues.

That's also when I realized I need to raise my voice and start advocating for our community, because I realized that there's not enough activists here in Japan sharing their stories and struggles. For the most part, I didn't let people know that I'm transgender, living here for that long. I was scared and there's so many worries I had before, so I kept living by not sharing my gender identity. I always thought that it was for my own safety, by not revealing my true identity.

So all these realizations and reflections during the pandemic had really pushed me to think of my purpose in life and what I can give back to my community. When I became an activist, I started to meet more people from our community. I was invited to different LGBTQ+ events and now I know most of the people from the community. And I now have more understanding towards each identity within the spectrum.

So during the Pride parade this year in Japan, I've never seen so many people gathered and paraded during the event. I've seen so many companies, so many brands, even schools, universities, embassies supported the event. So there's definitely a lot of changes happening.

While there's been progress, I think there's still work to be done. And Japan has really made some strides, but there are still legal and societal barriers that hinder full acceptance and inclusion.

[00:10:46] Charlie Ocean: In order to prepare for my conversation with Tiffany, I was digging around online to find out about the legal protections in Japan, and they aren't as good as they could be.

For example, changing one's gender in Japan is legal. Unfortunately, it requires a psychiatric evaluation and surgical sterilization. And they're not the only country to do that. The person must be single and without any children under 20 years old. What? It just reminds me of, "Won't somebody please think about the children!" for you Simpsons fans out there. I honestly can't think of any viable reason for that. It's just heinous.

So moving along, nonbinary, better known as "x-gender" in Japan, is not yet legally recognized. There are no nationwide protections for issues like housing discrimination or employment. Some cities may have protections, like Tokyo does for employment, though.

Conversion therapy is not banned. Same gender marriage is not recognized, but folks can openly serve in the military. Don't love those priorities.

Here's what Tiffany had to say about it.

[00:12:13] Tiffany Rossdale: The legal landscape in Japan does present challenges for the community. The requirements for legal gender change can be burdensome and the lack of recognition for us, LGBTQ individuals, is definitely a significant issue. And this impacts also my coaching practice at - also it's underscores the importance of advocating for legal reform and providing support for clients, navigating these complexities.

Now with my career as an actor, I want to share this story, because I rarely get jobs from the agencies. The system here in Tokyo, or in Japan, if you're a foreigner and you are an actor, a model, or you're other entertainers, most of us are freelancers and we can join all the freelance agencies.

It's because they know that I'm transgender, (laughs) I would only get like emails or calls from the agencies, if there's anything LGBTQ+ related work. For example, this year, I only probably received three or four times, and I don't even get the job. So this means there's not a lot of opportunity and you have to make your way. You have to find your ways on your own. And I'm really grateful, because living here for a very long time, I made connections and that gave me the opportunity to have a project as an actor, which I would not get it from the industry itself - true, you know, from the agencies.

In Japan, like, there's not a lot of LGBTQ actors or musicians, and really not much of a representation for our community. I mean, there's several of them, but they're mainly comedians - and I'm not saying that there's something wrong with being a comedian. What I'm concerned about is the future generations from our community need to see that they can be whoever in their careers. If they don't see an actor or musician, I don't think they will pursue what they're really passionate about, and that's what happened to me when I was young.

[00:14:20] Charlie Ocean: Yeah, here, I feel like we're only now starting to tell our own stories, and in a way that doesn't have to necessarily be riddled with trauma. What I mean by that is, I remember as a young queer person in the 90s, when I was able to watch some of the movies that did exist, a lot of it was stigmatizing our community. And there always had to be issues where their mental health wasn't good, they were murderers, they died in the end. Like, it was just like, constantly tragic; there was no winning.

It's felt like that's shifted over time, and now, to see especially younger generations, like on shows like "Heartstopper," like trans people playing trans roles, and just things like that. It's really inspiring, and honestly, I didn't think I'd be able to see something like that in my lifetime. So, I think it's really exciting. And that's not to say "It is solved!" and like, "Everything's good!" because there's still storylines that are the tropes, and like, maybe trans women, for example, are only very specific roles, and they're not really allowed to step outside of that, or whatever that looks like, but I'm excited about the progress.

It just, It doesn't feel like enough, and it's also exciting at the same time. So it's kind of a, it's a complicated feeling for me.

[00:15:48] Tiffany Rossdale: I agree. I agree.

[00:15:50] Charlie Ocean: What issues within the LGBTQ+ community or even just focusing exclusively on the trans community? Do you think deserve more attention and discussion in Japan today?

[00:16:03] Tiffany Rossdale: I recently met one amazing Japanese transgender woman who is actively doing many work in the government. She tried to run for mayor in one of the most known city in Tokyo, but she didn't won. What she told me was, there is this community of people that doesn't want change in Japan, and majority of them are older people. And during the elections, what they do is they're the ones who actively vote and support the candidates they prefer.

And these communities are like, seem like a cult, right. Like, they don't want to accept, like, all these new changes, like marriage equality and all other LGBTQ+ related issues. I think that's one thing that I can share about when it comes to like, blocking the progress of the issues that we're having here in Japan.

[00:16:55] Charlie Ocean: So you shared with us what some of the reactions were when you were here in the States, and shared that you were transgender. What are some of the reactions that you get in Japan when you share that with people?

[00:17:10] Tiffany Rossdale: Hmm. Japanese people are never really - they're very respectful. That's one thing I love about Japanese people: they're very respectful. They don't judge you for who you are. Sometimes you would also see people around, like, especially during the weekend, they dress like - you've probably seen it, like, you know, the harajuku girls, like wearing like those outfits. During the weekends, you see a lot of them, like dressing ups.

And people don't look at them like they're weird or something. And I've also seen a lot of cross dressers. So seeing them like going around and taking public trains or any public areas in Tokyo, I never see them like, someone look at them that they're weird. So that I really appreciated in Japan. And I never had issues being open about myself to people, especially to Japanese people. They have like, "Oh," some people would be surprised. They'll be like, "Oh, I didn't know."

[00:18:06] Charlie Ocean: Ah, yes, a tale as old as time. So I've created a rhyme for why, "Oh, I didn't know." isn't a compliment to bestow. (jazzy piano music begins)

(singing) This is your reminder. Or, warning for the first timer. Never tell a trans or nonbinary person you didn't or wouldn't know. It's a big uh oh, a big uh oh, SpaghettiOs.

It's a big yikes to force stereotypes. You think you've got them clocked. Well, you're about to be shocked, because you can't tell by looking, and who even cares?

Mind your own business. Mind your own affairs. And if you think you can, please try to understand. Unless we're wearing a shirt, sticker, or pin - no, you can't tell by lookin'. (end of jazzy piano accompanyment)

(slappin' bass outro)

[00:19:43] Charlie Ocean: It's a big, uh oh, SpaghettiOs.

It's a big, uh oh, SpaghettiOs.

It's a big, uh oh, SpaghettiOs

it's a big, uh oh, SpaghettiOs.

(end of musical PSA)

[00:20:12] Tiffany Rossdale: But there's not that surprise that I (laughs) received from when I was in America, compared - gonna compare to people in Japan. Japan are like, just probably like, "Oh, okay, I didn't know." Or they would be like, "Oh, okay." Like, and they move on. (laughs)

[00:20:25] Charlie Ocean: When you're sharing that with them, how does it come up? And like, why does it feel important to share with those folks?

I mean, we're going to also talk about dating in a moment, but. When it's not dating, like, yeah, what inspires you to share that part of yourself with people?

[00:20:42] Tiffany Rossdale: I think it's really important, like, again, going back to representation, if there's not a lot of people like me talking about this here in Japan, I don't think there's a lot of us, part of the community, who's talking about it. Like I said earlier, I met this amazing activist in Japan, all these activists here in Japan, but I was in New York for Pride event last June. When you go to like one event, there's like tons and tons of like activists in one event that you're gonna go. While you go to Pride Parade in Japan, there's not many.

Before I came, I was also a part of them, like not like, "I don't want to be part of it." You know, "I don't want to be seen in public." So I know, I think a lot of Japanese people are really worried and concerned about losing their families, losing their friends, losing especially their careers. So the tendency is they just shut up and they don't share. And they don't come out, they don't share who they are.

And knowing that all this was happening, I really thought that it's so important to share our stories and to be visible wherever we go.

[00:21:53] Charlie Ocean: How does it come up? Is it like, within the first five seconds of meeting someone? (Tiffany laughs) or is there a particular topic that comes up?

[00:22:00] Tiffany Rossdale: No, but of course I don't like, "Hey, I'm a transgender!" Like, not like that. (both laugh) It's more of like a conversation. I want it to become like when I feel like the person is going to be more understandable about, you know, like getting to know them, and then I can share a topic about my gender; then I will tell it.

Otherwise, it doesn't have to be you know, every time I meet someone, like, I'll tell them I'm transgender. I think it depends on the person, it depends on the situation, it depends on the conversation.

[00:22:28] Charlie Ocean: Dating can be a really hot topic for a lot of reasons, but it can especially be a unique experience for transgender and nonbinary individuals. I'm thinking of one of the big debates that comes up is this idea that if we don't share it right away that we're trans or nonbinary, if we don't share that information right away that we're either lying to people or misleading them. And when it's personal and private information, we should be able to share that when we feel comfortable, like you were just mentioning how you share it with people.

Can you share some insights into what it's like for you to navigate the dating scene as a trans woman in Japan? And do you have any tips for others in a similar situation?

[00:23:21] Tiffany Rossdale: Thank you for bringing this question. So I think navigating the dating scene as a transgender woman in Japan can be very complex.

I'm going to share also based from my experience as a transgender woman living here. I shared earlier that I almost got killed in America because revealing, like what you said earlier, revealing yourself can be dangerous to some people.

In Japan, I've dated, my preferred in dating are straight men, or men in general. So I used to date a lot of Japanese men and a lot of them, even if I revealed myself later on, not like when you meet them right away and on the date and you tell them about your transgender. And this was like back, (laughs) back like early 2000s, like this was a time where not even people talking about like transgender and all that, right.

So I'm very selective of people that I'm going to share myself and revealing myself. Once, of course, I get intimate, if it's going to be a relationship, I think it's important to reveal myself. And what I noticed every time I revealed myself to Japanese people, there is understanding, and there is respect.

And also, of course, there were times there where I revealed myself, they'd be like, "Oh, sorry, it's not for me." But I never really had a problem like what I had in America when I revealed myself that I almost got killed. So I think in Japan, dating as a transgender woman can be more safer. In the Philippines, I never really had the opportunity to experience that, but based from my transgender sisters that I know, that lives there, like, it's a struggle, like, to really meet men who is interested in them. And a lot of also that in the Philippines, I've heard is like, you have to give money; you have to provide money (laughs) to have that relationship.

So when I had previous relationships from Japanese men, they would also treat me like as a woman. So I think those are my experiences living here in Japan as transgender. I think it's crucial to communicate openly with your potential partners about your gender identity and your experiences, and also building a support network of understanding friends, can also provide a safe space for all this, you know, challenges that we have when it comes to dating.

[00:25:47] Charlie Ocean: Yeah. And are you meeting these folks on like apps, like websites or something when you're dating?

[00:25:52] Tiffany Rossdale: Yes. There's this Japanese dating apps that I used before - which I don't use anymore - but yes, that's how I met them through the dating apps. And also when I used to work as a hostess and showgirl, I was doing that career for like more than 10 years, I was able to meet men through my work, like, meeting them, they come to my work, and then eventually it becomes a relationship.

[00:26:15] Charlie Ocean: When you were putting your profile together, what, for you, made you decide that you wanted to wait to disclose that to people versus having it, like, out there on your profile?

[00:26:31] Tiffany Rossdale: I think it goes back to the safety. So I use several apps now. Now I use, of course, I have my Tinder app. I have also Bumble app. And since I came out though, I don't really focus on those apps anymore. Before, I would very actively I used those apps to meet men, but now I use this app called My Transgender Date App, which you don't have to really reveal yourself because it's already written there. It's also an app for transgender women to find your potential relationship.

Going back to your question, not putting it on my profile, for example, on Tinder and Bumble, I think it's not necessary to just put it there. And if you do, I think there's no chance of you to meet a potential partner or a potential man that will be interested in me. That's how I thought back then, but now I'm using more of this app called My Transgender Day app that I don't have to tell them that I'm transgender or whatever, like, I mean, everything was written on the profile, so I don't have to be worried about that.

[00:27:35] Charlie Ocean: So, in some ways, Since you've kind of gone from one side to the other.

[00:27:42] Tiffany Rossdale: Mm-hmm.

[00:27:43] Charlie Ocean: When I think of trans specific dating sites, I think of people who treat trans women as a fetish. Is that something that you've experienced with people, with like the men approaching you on that website? Or do they tend to be more respectful?

[00:28:04] Tiffany Rossdale: Yeah, I think you're absolutely right. There were times there were men who actually will message you and ask you like questions like, "So are you pre? Are you, like, did you do your surgery?" Like, which is too private to ask right away. Right? (laughs) So those questions, I think, what also probably what made me think that like, you know, not to reveal everything, because of those fetishizing trans women. Yeah - yeah, I've received those messages before.

[00:28:33] Charlie Ocean: It's tricky. Dating's hard for everybody. (both laugh) It's just hard for everybody. What are the expectations of women in Japan?

[00:28:45] Tiffany Rossdale: So in Japan, like there are traditional expectations of women when it comes to like femininity, their modesty, their politeness, and adherence to certain beauty standards. However, I believe that being a woman is deeply personal experience. And for me, it means embracing my authenticity, my strength and compassion. My own journey as a transgender woman has inspired me to express my womanhood in a way that feels true to myself.

Year 2020, I joined this women community called FEW Japan, F-E-W means "for empowering women" in Japan. I was scouted to be one of the board of directors - and this community has been in Japan for more than 40 years. It's a community where all women come together; a lot of them are expat community, a lot of them are foreigners. And being in the community and understanding like what they fight for. I've really learned a lot and I was really honored to be part of the community.

And that community also, they wanted to be more inclusive. That's why they include me as a transgender woman to be part of the board and share my stories and share my experiences and share my struggles and what my difficulties living in Japan.

So. Yeah, that really helped me a lot to understand about womanhood in Japan and the community.

[00:30:13] Charlie Ocean: I know that you said American culture has influenced you watching movies and everything. Has anyone inspired you to be the woman that you are?

[00:30:25] Tiffany Rossdale: Ever since I've become an activist, advocating for our community, learning all that, I've been really Inspired by all these amazing women and not just women, but also amazing trans women like in America, like Laverne Cox, Angelica Ross. Like apart from being an actor or a celebrity, they're also advocate a lot about our community and showing and letting people understand about us, more and more.

So it's very inspiring to see them doing that, and while we don't have anyone to look up to here in Japan.

[00:31:01] Charlie Ocean: According to Wikipedia, Aya Kamikawa won an election in April 2003, becoming the first openly transgender person to seek or win elected office in Japan. She won a four-year term under huge media attention in Tokyo. Her platform was to improve rights for communities like women, children, the elderly, and LGBTQ+ people.

She was the only openly transgender official in Japan until the 2017 election of Tomoya Hosoda. If you've been following what's been happening here in the States, far right conservatives will claim that trans women are groomers or predators, men dressing like women to gain access to the women's restroom to prey upon them.

Unfortunately, this seems to be an experience echoed in Japan, frightening transgender women who live there. I'll be linking to an article so you can learn more. I was also able to find a Tumblr post of other famous trans women in Japan, who are singers, actresses, businesswomen, models, and authors. So, I'll be linking to that as well.

And before you tell me, or think to yourself, Charlie, Tumblr is not a valid resource, it is. And it's been a very prized resource to the LGBTQ+ community because it's been a way that people for years have been able to find community, share definitions and resources, and all sorts of stuff. So I will be linking that as well.

[00:32:34] Tiffany Rossdale: So hoping that I can also, I can use that for my activism here in japan.

[00:32:41] Charlie Ocean: Sometimes my friends and I will talk about what makes us feel gender euphoric. And I know for myself, sometimes it's an external experience for how someone will treat me. So for example, having someone that I'm intimate with rest their head on my now flat chest, like, feels really good to me. Or when people use my they/them pronouns. What makes you feel gender euphoria?

[00:33:14] Tiffany Rossdale: I think having that, what you said, like, using the pronouns, it shows that they really support you and becoming a great ally. And I think having them listening, having them really interested in like, what stories we can share about our experiences. But just being a good listener, I think, makes me feel more safe to share my stories to them.

Like this is how I see whenever I meet someone, a new person or someone that I meet that I knew that I share something about me. And then like, when I see something that they're interested, like they're interested to learn more about me too. Like, it sparked their interest to know about what a transgender woman like, you know, living. And I feel more excited to share my stories to them. So I think that's very important to be a good listener.

[00:34:08] Charlie Ocean: What advice would you give to someone who's transgender who might be considering moving to Japan? Especially when thinking about finding support, community, or even dating.

[00:34:23] Tiffany Rossdale: I think going back to community and finding support, finding the essential community, is very important. I think it's very important to seek out the LGBTQ+ organizations, the local meetups, and other online communities. Engaging with expat and local communities that are inclusive and affirming.

And here in Tokyo, we now have a place called Pride House Tokyo, where you can get more information about LGBTQ and It's also safe space to meet fellow LGBTQ+ and I've been there several times, and they also have, like, events every now and then, like, for example, they have, like, the Transgender -I think it was, they called it the Transgender Day Month, or something like this, once a month event that they held like a small gathering event for transgender people.

So these places are, I think, very essential because when you get to Japan, again, (laughs) there's not much of representation when you compare it to America. When you go to New York, you see everyone like right off the bat, but like in Japan, you have to know the right people. You have to know the right community. You have to find, in order for you to understand, like, the situations and also what actions we still need here in Japan.

[00:35:51] Charlie Ocean: Are there stereotypes that people place on you or expect you to live up to when you share that you're trans?

[00:36:03] Tiffany Rossdale: So in Japan, transgender individuals here in Japan, we face challenges related to legal recognition, societal understanding, and stereotypes. Personally, I've addressed this by advocating for my legal reform and educating others about transgender experiences and being also visible as a transgender woman in my community.

One incident happened to me when I did my yearly health checkup. In Japan, they're very organized, right. So they provide this once a year health checkup, like a total health checkup. And I think, I'm not sure if, if you're only reached a certain age, or maybe like in certain age, there's a different checkups that they do. But my friends, my Japanese friends told me like, if you're 40, if you're over 40, you should definitely do that, you know, because it's for free and you just have to make time and just booked it and all that.

So I booked, to do my yearly checkup for the very first time. So the choices that you can have, right, like you can book like for breast cancer, you can book for colon cancer, like all this, right. So I book each in different clinics.

When I book for my breast cancer checkup, they accepted it through phone call. When I showed up in the clinic, my gender mark is still male. When I went to the clinic and I showed it, like, the nurse was really surprised and she was like, "Oh, you're male." And then, (laughs) and then she was expecting I was a female. And then I told her, but you guys accepted my call and I thought that wasn't - there won't be a problem.

And then they said, "Okay, just wait in the waiting room." So they let me wait in the waiting room and she went back. And while waiting in the waiting room, there's like other patients, right, like waiting. And she said it aloud that I'm sorry "We don't provide breast cancer - we don't provide breast cancer checkup for male patients." (laughs) And I was like, "Okay, so where am I gonna go if I need to go check out? I have a breast implant."

And then she went back again and then asked probably the doctor or whoever that is and then she came back saying that the city that I live in, this rural, what do you call it? Like there's like city - each cities, right, you have like a city office, a city office that I belong. Coming from a city office, he said like they don't provide that service for male patients.

And then of course I asked, "So what am I gonna do?" What if I find out I'm, you know, like knock on wood, I'd didn't have any breast cancer, but like, what if I found out if I'm breast can- I have a - it's possible because I have, I have a breast implant. And then she said like, "If you know it, if there's something hurting you, like, all that, we can check you out, but if not, if you don't feel anything, then, you know, we're not gonna, if we check you and we don't find anything, then you have to pay."

Because these are for free, right, supposed to be for free. So I was really shocked that they don't have the hospitals, they don't have that trainings for people that works there. It would have been nice if they asked me in a separate room and the head of the clinic or the doctor would have spoken to me properly, telling me all this, rather than like, humiliate me in the public where everyone's still there, right?

So I openly talk about this on my, (laughs) on my social media, and a lot of Japanese people were surprised that this is happening. So I think this kind of experience is so important to share. There might be other people who experienced it before, but they just shut their mouth. They don't, don't speak about it. So that's one incident that happened to me that I think is really important to address and share the stories.

[00:39:54] Charlie Ocean: I'm so sorry to hear that you've had that experience. I've definitely had similar ones myself.

[00:39:59] Tiffany Rossdale: Okay. Yeah.

[00:40:00] Charlie Ocean: Yeah.

[00:40:00] Tiffany Rossdale: And I actually went to, so of course I was really concerned about like, I had my breast implants for many, many years. Like this was like back, you know, 20 years ago, more than 20 years ago. I thought that I really need to do my checkup, so I booked a clinic where, recommended by a friend, who they also allow transgender patients that, you know, for checkup, so I went, and luckily, like, I'm grateful that it's all good, like, I didn't have anything, but I have to pay $200 just for that checkup.

While you can have that, in that health yearly check up, that's for free. (laughs) can you imagine? (laughs)

[00:40:45] Charlie Ocean: That's why I wish our healthcare here in the States, and I imagine most every place does this, separates it based on what your gender is or what your sex is, you know, every place is different. But that's why my stuff all still says "F" or "female" because I want to have that conversation, but like you said, there's There's not a lot of people that are trained to be sensitive to that.

I usually get like a nurse laughing or something and like "Oh, let me change this." And I'm like, "Don't change it, actually, leave it; that's what it needs to say." And yeah, it just creates awkward scenarios. So part of why I haven't changed it is that if I get health insurance as a man, well, "men," and I'm putting heavy air quotes on that, "men" don't normally get like pap smears or things like that. And so I would be denied care. I would do the same thing. Like how you've had to, I'd have to pay out of pocket for those services. And I just don't want to have to do that.

So, until our systems, especially our healthcare systems, can decide: you know what, everyone gets access to the same care, and you determine with your medical professionals what you need. We're not going to deny it because there's an "M" or an "F" or an "X" on your identification or for your health insurance. It's purely just everyone gets access to the care that they need. And I feel like it would be a really simple change to make, but I'm sure there would be people who disagree with me on that.

But then that way it eliminates - it eliminates the awkwardness. People are gonna have to be trained then to you know, be more sensitive to trans and nonbinary individuals, and then, yeah, again, you get the care you need and, yeah, I don't know.

I feel very passionately about this. It's something I've been thinking about a lot more lately.

[00:42:40] Tiffany Rossdale: I agree with that. And on top of that, we pay, we also pay the same amount, you know, like what they pay. Why can't I have the same access? Yeah.

[00:42:50] Charlie Ocean: I wish that people could get the care that they need and that people understand it's a holistic situation, right. Because it's not enough that you have a provider who's trans and nonbinary inclusive, the staff need to be as well, right? Like, from the moment maybe you call to make that appointment, that they're not misgendering you, that they're not making any comments or anything, when you give them information over the phone, that, yeah, if they see "M" on your documentation, but then you're coming up and you, you look like a woman, like, they're not, you know, making any snide comments or anything, like - the whole process needs to be smooth.

And so, yeah, that's why it's really important that all of them get trained, and regularly, too, because there's cultural shifts. So I'd say, like, yearly, there needs to just be yearly training to make sure that they are doing the best care possible, but more often than not, places consider that, like, a bonus or an extra or something, and so they won't do the work.

[00:43:58] Tiffany Rossdale: Hm-mmm, that's true.

[00:43:59] Charlie Ocean: And I honestly don't mind that some places will just, like, specialize in it. However, then you have a situation here, like, there are a lot of folks who are part of the LGBTQ+ community that are in rural areas. It would take maybe five hours, sometimes more, for them to get access to care for, for anything, health, health related.

But especially for someone who's, hopefully, trans and nonbinary affirming - so, it's just, there's a lot. There's a lot to think about, and I just wish that people could get access to the care that they need.

[00:44:35] Tiffany Rossdale: Mm. Absolutely. Yeah.

[00:44:38] Charlie Ocean: Sorry, I went on a whole monologue there. (both laugh)

[00:44:41] Tiffany Rossdale: No, but this is -

[00:44:41] Charlie Ocean: I feel very passionate.

[00:44:42] Tiffany Rossdale: But these are very important, and I think that's the moment when I really realized, like, wow, like, how important it is for us to have, like, that, that healthcare. Crazy.

[00:44:51] Charlie Ocean: Yeah.

[00:44:52] Tiffany Rossdale: Mm.

[00:44:53] Charlie Ocean: Allyship is a continuous process. Where we learn, we unlearn, we relearn things. There's a lot of learning happening and I'm, you know, the whole point really of my podcast is to humanize allyship because we are gonna make mistakes because we're people, and people make mistakes.

[00:45:17] Tiffany Rossdale: Yeah.

[00:45:18] Charlie Ocean: I'm curious if you can share an example of a time that maybe someone failed to show up for you, when you were really hoping for support from that person. And what you wish they would have done instead, that would have been supportive.

[00:45:32] Tiffany Rossdale: There have been times when someone failed to show up for me by misgendering or invalidating my identity. I just wish that they had taken the opportunity to listen and learn and correct their behavior. And of course, a sincere apology and a commitment to do better can go a long way in mending such situations. I think this goes with the previous relationships I had, where they didn't fight for the relationship.

An example is this one relationship I had with this man that - we were in a relationship for over a year - when he, cause he was the only child and his mother was really forcing him to have kids because he's the last, he's the only child, right, and he's, he's been asked by his mother, like, "When are you going to have, you know, children?" And, you know, and all that.

And of course he have this conversations with me. But he loves me, of course I do the same, and the fact that I can't give him a child his mother was wanting, eventually that ended the relationship. It would have been nice if he could have fought for that relationship that he wanted, because he wanted to be with me.

He just didn't know how to let his parents know that he's dating a transgender woman. So it happened to me several times in my previous relationship, especially for Japanese. Because Japanese are not really open to their families sharing about, you know, like this, if you're part of LGBT, they don't talk about it.

If they're LGBT, they (don't) even talk about it to their own families. So what more if just a relationship, not even them, right?

[00:47:14] Charlie Ocean: That can get really tricky. I mean, the science is definitely evolving. And, do you want to have kids?

[00:47:23] Tiffany Rossdale: You know what, Charlie, I thought about it before, a long time ago. (laughs) But, but of course, if before I did my transition, like the full surgery, I already had that thought about, like, if I really want to have a child in the future, I can also adopt. That's an option. And after the surgery, after like, you know, over the time, I'm not really even thinking about having a child anymore. I don't know. Of course, if that happens, you know, maybe it's for me. If it didn't happen, then it's not for me.

I had this one relationship, my last relationship, where he was previously married; he got divorced, he has two kids. I thought he was the perfect guy for me, (laughs) it was like the relationship, like the way he treated me, but that also ended up like not at a good, (laughs) good turn.

When I revealed myself to him, because I didn't know that he, if he knew or not, because he never talked anything about it. And when I did, that's when he started to fade away and like totally ghosted. So, I don't know, like, I don't know if I am, if I am, you know, if I'm going to have a child or not, like, if that happens, then it happens, I guess.

[00:48:41] Charlie Ocean: So, at the time of recording this, you have 167 episodes on your podcast, the "Breakfast with Tiffany Show." you started it in July of 2020 and since then when we hung out, because I was on your podcast, you've told me that you've had a lot of like transgender guests on and maybe also nonbinary folks like myself. For those not familiar with this term, that are not super duper in the podcasting world, "podfade" is a thing. So it's when a podcast starts regularly producing episodes, but then It's like maybe every other week, then maybe once a month or so, and then it may just like stop altogether. Or some will do like three episodes and then they'll stop - and not intentionally I just mean like they fall off because it's a lot of work; it's kind of like the ghosting of dating.

So first I just want to say congrats on so many episodes because that is incredible and I'm curious, what are some lessons or nuggets of wisdom you've learned from your different LGBTQ+ guests in particular, that have stayed with you?

[00:49:52] Tiffany Rossdale: Thank you so much, Charlie. And I am also really grateful that you became a part of the podcast, "Breakfast with Tiffany Show." And first, (laughs) I didn't know that there was already a term or a word called "podfade." You said "podfade," right?

[00:50:10] Charlie Ocean: Podfade.

[00:50:10] Tiffany Rossdale: Yeah.

[00:50:10] Charlie Ocean: Yeah.

[00:50:11] Tiffany Rossdale: I didn't know that. I knew this was going on and there were several podcasts I personally followed and over the time, weren't able to continue their shows. And we both know how it's very difficult to run all this, as we are independent producers.

[00:50:29] Charlie Ocean: Yes.

[00:50:29] Tiffany Rossdale: And for me I'm really grateful for my team who has been doing incredible works and helping me throughout these years. And recently I found a few new very talented people, who can help me doing with more creative things for my podcast. And I started doing this podcast on my own, right, doing everything, but I knew right then that I will need help from others to be able to run the show because it's a weekly show.

And it was great that I did started it on my own as I was able to learn and understand how the podcast process world. And I've also learned from having many errors and mistakes (Charlie laughs) and over the time through my podcast, I've learned so much from all the guests, especially from the LGBTQ guests that I had.

And one key lesson is the power of resilience and the importance of creating spaces for authentic conversations. And also hearing their stories of their strength and their self-discovery, has been a constant source of inspiration towards my activism. So that really, like, you, like, sharing your story on the podcast, and getting to know you more, what you do. Every guest that I had on the show, there's always something I learned and that's, that's why I love doing this; I love doing continuously. It inspires me to do and continue this weekly.

Even I know that it's not easy. It's not - it's difficult. It's difficult to do this continuously and also to get support from people. But over the time, like that, like the conversations, the, you know, like how important to us to have all these conversations and letting other people know about our stories. I think what's really inspires me to do more.

[00:52:22] Charlie Ocean: What's one allyship tip you'd like everyone listening to consider?

[00:52:27] Tiffany Rossdale: Actively listen and educate oneself about the experiences and the challenges that we LGBTQ+ face. I think being open to learning, asking questions, and also respecting individual identities and the pronouns, even me, I struggle, but I still do it, you know, I still, I think it's important for us to, to acknowledge this. And it's a powerful way to show our support and solidarity.

Listening to podcasts like yours and mine, Charlie, I think is definitely important. And that's what we are here for, to share all our stories. We also invite prominent guests from our community and discuss everything about our community, our struggles, our successes. Our normal day to day life experiences. I think if people doesn't know how we go through with our lives, I think they will not understand us and understanding is a must before acceptance.

[00:53:26] Charlie Ocean: Tiffany, thank you so much for sharing your experiences with us. It was delightful to get to continue our conversation from when I was on your podcast. Every time we connect, it's a wonderful conversation and I learn so much, so thank you, again. I'm also laughing because it's been a while since someone has jammed in a lot of tips, and not just one. (laughs)

Here are the final three self-reflection questions before you go.

4. Is there something I share about myself that may give people pause? How do I wish they would respond instead?

5. Have I experienced discrimination while seeking healthcare?

6. Do I think I have to understand someone to accept them?

Visit AllyshipIsAVerb.com for any resources and a full transcript of the episode.

And remember, sometimes allyship means actively listening and educating oneself.