[00:00:00] Charlie Ocean: Well, hello there. I'm Charlie Ocean, and my pronouns are they/them. Welcome to Allyship is a Verb, a podcast for people practicing allyship, for the LGBTQ+ community, and beyond!

[00:00:25] Ashabi Owagboriaye: Hey, my name is Ashabi Owaboriaya and my pronouns are she/they.

[00:00:30] Charlie Ocean: Well, folks, we are in for a treat. Ashabi is a wonderful ace advocate and organizer among many other roles and intersections. And as a result of International Asexuality Day, (laughs) oh Charlie, that we just had on April 6th, I want to quickly announce that she has launched an ace flag revision survey and we are going to hear more about why later in the conversation.

So, if you are ace, I hope you'll consider taking it; it's about 3 minutes long. If you're not, please help spread the word. I'll have more information in the show notes and on our website.

Jumping back a bit, International Asexuality Day - why do I keep saying it like that? I don't know - (laughs) has four themes. International Asexuality Day has four themes: advocacy, celebration, education, and solidarity. So, the timing of Ashabi's revision survey is pretty darn good.

And now it's time for the self-reflection questions to think about while you're listening to the conversation, be sure to stick around after for three more.

1. What does friendship mean to me? What does it look like?

2. Is there a person from a community I'm part of that gives it a bad reputation?

3. What asexual representation have I seen, if any? If so, do I think it was authentic?

And now, our chaos. (laughs) Unhinged chaos.

You are asexual, a Black woman, androgynous, queer, and Nigerian. What do those intersections mean to you?

[00:02:27] Ashabi Owagboriaye: I would say they are just the cores of my identity. They are things that I really hold near and dear to me. Growing up as a Black woman, I am somebody who can't really hide that part of myself. That's who I am whenever I walk into a room. And being Nigerian on top of that, that's a part of my culture that I am very proud about. And I really enjoy sharing with other people, especially as somebody who's also queer.

Queerness is not something that is outwardly celebrated in Nigerian culture. And As a person who is outwardly queer and also asexual, it's something that I like to tell everybody because there are still queer Nigerians and queer Africans who live in this world who deserve some sort of representation. And if I can be that for people, and they can see me living my life and my truth, and not being afraid to do so, that's something that I'll continue to do unapologetically as well.

The androgyny part is something that I've been kind of holding on to for my Tumblr years. It's just something that I personally align with. I don't want to say that androgyny looks a certain way, and for me personally, just being a Black woman, my androgyny looks like it would for any other Black woman who aligns in my gender and my sexuality as well. It's just a way for me to express myself and be confident in that and not really have to worry about who I'm pleasing or why I should please other people when I step out of the room and go into a space.

Like, I look like this, I am this, I'm very proud to be this. And however you perceive me as - your perception, it won't really change how I show up in the world.

[00:04:05] Charlie Ocean: I thought of you this morning before, like well before we hopped on the call, because something came up in my Instagram feed saying, "Femme presenting is not an inclusive way to say women. The way that someone dresses or speaks is not necessarily indicative of their gender; in the same vein as nonbinary people don't owe you androgyny, women don't owe you femininity, men don't owe you masculinity, genderfluid people don't owe you any of these at any given time."

Would you say that resonates with you?

[00:04:40] Ashabi Owagboriaye: Yes, it does. And - hold on, there's something that my friend sent me a few days ago that also aligns with me very much. Like, when it comes to androgyny and how I express myself in that way, a lot of the times, it's not something that people understand, because as a person who presents like very femme most of the times, I am just seen as like a Black woman, like a woman period.

They sent me a meme saying "Happy Women's Day to the nonbinary people who are only women in a Black woman type of way." And like, yes, it's a niche. Like, that's very much how (laughs) I hold myself. I don't like using the term, like, nonbinary; I align with androgyny, like, very much. Also because it begins with the letter "A" and, you know, like: Ashabi, asexual, ADHD, androgyny. It's like, "Oh wow, that's another thing that aligns with me."

But, like, in that (laughs) frame of, like, mind, I am very much, like, aligned to that. I am androgynous in a Black woman way. And it's something that most Black women, if you align in that, like, gender expression, understand completely. So what you said also aligns with that as well.

[00:05:51] Charlie Ocean: Well, I read the post, but yes. (both laugh) I was just like, "Ah, this is perfect for my guest." I'm curious about - March, 2024, the month we're currently recording this in - you have nearly 8, 000 followers on Instagram, which is bananas, and (Ashabi laughs) you created Ace in Grace back in only 2019, which isn't that long ago, to educate folks about asexuality and uplift others within the community, and very intentionally certain community members.

So, from it starts to where it is now, people have been inspired by your openness. When first connecting a while back, I wrote down something you shared about that openness, that it, direct quote, "Can influence somebody and carry a generation in either direction, if you're not careful." Could you share more about that?

[00:06:46] Ashabi Owagboriaye: I said that?

[00:06:47] Charlie Ocean: Yes, you did. (Ashabi laughs) Are you like, "Damn," right now, are you having one of those?

[00:06:52] Ashabi Owagboriaye: Yeah, I'm like, I said that? That's crazy. (laughs)

[00:06:54] Charlie Ocean: I wrote it down. Yeah, but I'm wondering if you could share more about that, and how do you navigate the responsibility that can come with being a visible advocate and educator within the community?

Wow.

[00:07:08] Ashabi Owagboriaye: I'm still like, sitting with the fact that I said that. Can you say it again?

[00:07:11] Charlie Ocean: Yes! (both laugh) "That openness can influence somebody and carry a generation in either direction if you're not careful." I feel like a really good example of someone who's so polar opposite than you, that also makes me feel really gross because I don't want them to be on any sort of like spectrum or continuum (laughs) with you.

[00:07:31] Ashabi Owagboriaye: Uh-huh.

[00:07:31] Charlie Ocean: Would be someone like Caitlyn Jenner.

[00:07:33] Ashabi Owagboriaye: That's so fucking funny. (both laugh) I'm so sorry. That's actually fucking hilarious. Oh my god. Never in my life would I ever expect that to be the - wow, Caitlyn Jenner. Crazy! Tell me why.

[00:07:53] Charlie Ocean: For me, she is demonstrate - I mean, okay. (Ashabi laughs) I held onto a sense of hope when she had her show, I think it was called "I am Cait."

(Charlie's post-interview FYI) "I am Cait" was a television documentary series that came out in 2015 and ran for two seasons. (returns to interview)

And there was a lot of speculation before things were confirmed as true and like tabloids and stuff that like my grandma would read for some reason, (both laugh) but sometimes they're on point, I can't lie, like I don't know where they get their sources, but dang. So, I don't love though, that there was a lot of speculation about that and getting all up in her business of: if she was having surgery or not, or if she was trans or not. Because, let people tell their own stories.

And someone like her, she would tell you. (laughs) She will happily tell you her story, especially for the right price. Or not even, like, we'll just, yeah.

So, when she had that show - and I watched every episode - I was like, you have some pioneers within our community, more broadly, that are sitting with you having these really crunchy conversations. And my interpretation, and this could be the editing - thanks, Hollywood - my interpretation was that at that point, it felt like she was more like a sponge and wanting to learn and wanting to have those conversations, but we still knew she was conservative. We still knew she was more of like a Republican business mindset and okay, whatever.

However, I don't know what the fuck happened, (laughs) because it felt like a wasted effort that, and I think it was a couple of seasons, even; I don't even think it was just one season. I can't remember. The details are a little bit fuzzy because it's been so long. But I mean now, the way that she lives in that hypocrisy of, "Oh, I, I can transition medically, I can have access to these things and be like a real woman or whatever, and I can go and play golf now, you know, but like trans girls can't have access to this."

Like why? How, how can you, I don't, I don't know. I don't know how someone could live with themselves, carrying something that's like, so opposite of how they're actually living their life. I just don't get where the misalignment is. I mean, power, privilege, all of that. I, but yeah, anyway, you were nodding with me, but that's how I feel.

So I think she is, unfortunately, a very good example of someone who causes a lot of great harm to our community. And then it's like, "Gosh, why aren't these politicians supporting me? And like, why won't they let me be a spokesperson for them? What's happening?" And I'm like -

[00:10:28] Ashabi Owagboriaye: So crazy. (laughs)

[00:10:28] Charlie Ocean: Don't play me right now. Are you serious with this? (Ashabi laughs) Are you serious? Again, wasted on you. Our queer elders were fucking wasted on you. (laughs) They tried. They tried giving you like a spiritual Queer Eye makeover and still.

So like my hope in my soul, (laughs) in my existence is that there is still hope for her. I'm going to hold on to that tiny little hope I have, but I'm also not going to kid myself. If I can't hold space, and maybe this is part of like the educator in me, if I can't hold space for the fact that someone can change for the better, I just, I think I'm in the wrong field or wrong profession. I say that also as a social worker.

But if memory and history serves me well, I just (both laugh) will need a lot of receipts for her to like make that, that turnaround.

But I don't know. I don't know. But again, I'm going to hold on to hope that that exists.

[00:11:20] Ashabi Owagboriaye: Yeah, I definitely hear the dichotomy between me and her now that you're explaining it. Like, being who I am, I'm consistently like, (laughs) the first person to say something about whatever is going on. And I'm consistently the first person to like, be loud about it and be right about it, because I have done many, many years of research and have a lot of experience with communities that revolve around the topic that we're talking about.

And for me, when it comes to asexuality specifically, like, outside of Yasmin, I don't really see many people who look like me and speak as loudly about asexuality from my perspective as well. And even knowing that, I have had too many conversations with people who are queer who are just like, "I have seen you talk about this. And I'm not comfortable talking about this just yet, but I am comfortable talking about this with you. And I would love to know how you carry yourself and like how you hold yourself to such high regard." Or like, "How you hold yourself with such confidence about your own personal experiences."

Honestly, sometimes that can be really discomforting, because I don't see myself like that. I'm just like a little dude, I'm just like here, (both laugh) I'm just like chillin like I'm just like living my life, but whenever I have conversations like that, (laughs) whenever I have conversations like that, it's like, it really pulls me back, cause it's like, "Oh wow, people like, see me."

And not just me, but people who know me see me, and they see who I am, and they see who I've been, and they see, they've seen my journey, and they've seen me be consistent in how I've experienced life. And they just love the fact that I can do that without conforming to the judgments that other people have about what they think I should be.

And when it comes to like, fucking Caitlyn, and when it comes to me, (both laugh) it's just kind of like, it's so interesting, because I've lived very many lives and I have had the opportunity to have a lot, and I've had the opportunity to have like literally negative in my account for many weeks. So like, I've been able to like, go through both very often, or just experience both things, and I've been able to have a really good community to support me.

And seeing Caitlyn, and seeing how she has everything handed to her, essentially. She has, like, the whole world in her fucking hand. And she's still choosing to not lean into community. And she's choosing to, like, platform community in a way that just makes her look good. That's, like, really crazy to me. Like, I will never relate to somebody who has all the resources in the world to do better, and still chooses to do wrong.

And for me personally, there are so many reasons why I'm able to speak confidently. Granted, I didn't have a lot of role models like that in my life growing up, so a lot of the things that I'm doing, I'm purely just doing it and like, trial and error, and like, improving on that.

But even with that, it's just people are seeing that, and they're seeing me like, fuck up, and they're seeing me like, come back even stronger, and it's like, "Wow, that's really, really motivating, and I really want to do that for myself." And it's really crazy, because a lot of the times, the people that I'm talking to - I keep forgetting that I'm older. It's really just not clicking for me sometimes, that I'm older than a lot of my friends. (laughs)

So like, they come to me as an elder queer, which is fucking crazy, and it's just, "Oh yeah, can you give me advice on like, X, Y, Z." And it's like, "Yeah, I can do that, but why me?" And then they elaborate (both laugh) on certain things that I've done. And it's just like, "Oh, okay. Yeah. Let's have conversations about that, but also understand I don't want to be your point of contact. I want to be like somebody that you see and are inspired to get more information by, but also broaden your community, ask other people about these things and like have those conversations."

And like a lot of times whenever I have conversations, especially with Black queers and younger Black queers, it's kind of like, "Yeah, you're one of the first people that I've seen come out and share their experiences as a Black asexual, a Black queer person, a Black woman, a African queer person." It's just like, "Oh wow, that's really crazy to me to be in that position." And a lot of the times it's like very emotional because it's just like, "Oh wow, I'm literally just doing this because I didn't have this for me."

And now people are seeing that it's like, "Oh wow, well you are that for me. And I'm really glad that you exist." And it's like, "Ah! Wow, I would have never imagined that to be where I'm at right now, but again, if you don't know how to do that properly, I guess I mentioned once upon a time, it can go into one direction, or it can go into a different direction, but I feel like the directions that I've been going to have been helpful to the people that are aligned to me.

So, I hope that continues being where I move forward when it comes to educating and advocating for these things.

[00:16:11] Charlie Ocean: I'm only going to quote you more because you say some really smart shit, so I guess I'm just emotionally preparing you for that. (both laugh)

[00:16:18] Ashabi Owagboriaye: Oh no, I'm going to cry!

[00:16:20] Charlie Ocean: So that's the thing, right? Caitlin has a lot of that same confidence, but what's behind it is just different values, different goals, different passion. But very different outcomes.

So it was funny watching you (laughs) - well I shouldn't laugh but it's fucking hilarious to me - watching you, you didn't even like her name in your mouth. (laughs) You were just like, it was like someone like sipping and trying to like get a sense of a wine or something. And you're like, "Oh no, this is fucked up my palate. I need a cleanser. Like, but something strong. I'm sorry. And thank you." (both laugh) it's one of those moments that always comes up where I'm just like, "Damn, I wish this was a video podcast."

So on that lovely note -

[00:17:10] Ashabi Owagboriaye: Mm-hmm.

[00:17:11] Charlie Ocean: Your ace flag project that you have going on in April. So what can you tell us about it?

[00:17:18] Ashabi Owagboriaye: So, once upon a time, I, (both laugh) I did some research about the ace flag, and I looked into what all the flag colors meant, because for all pride flags, all the colors have certain meaning, and the meaning has changed throughout the years.

The ace flag itself has been around for 13 plus years since it's been created, and there's been no real discussion around changing certain things about it. It's just been the way that it is. The meaning of the flag and the colors came through like the AVEN forum and people on that page coming to some sort of consensus.

And when I read about it, I was like, "Oh, the white stripe doesn't align with asexuality at all." The white stripe in the ace flag stands for non-aces and non-ace partners. And I was just kind of taking it back, because again, I've lived many lives. In many of those lives, I've done a lot of work to make sure that "A" does not stand for "ally", it stands for "asexuality."

And for that to be something that's been a constant in the asexual community for so many years, and nobody's ever thought to say, "Maybe we should talk about this now that we're being more, like, visible in, like, society?" And so I posed that question on Ace in Grace and I was like, "Hey, did you all know this? (laughs) Did you all know this is like a thing?"

And when I was looking for if it was consistent, there are different meanings on different websites. I got messaged by AVEN and they're just like, "No, like the meaning for the white stripe is what you saw, it's this." So I posted that question on Ace in Grace and I was like, "Yeah, maybe let's have a conversation about this and see what else we can do about possibly changing it." And there are so many people who were just kind of like, "Yeah, that's kind of weird. I don't like that either. This is what we could possibly change it to; this is what it could align with." So a lot of people gave their opinions about it and shared what they thought it could be.

The ace flag project that I'm going to be looking to launch, like, in April is kind of like in-line with that like, hey, we're now a community of people who want more for ourselves and want to be honored more intentionally. So how can we do that with all of us in mind? With more voices in mind? With more diversity in mind?

So that's kind of what it's going to be leaning towards, when it launches. Some of the people who have taken it are like older queers, older aces who weren't so happy about me wanting to change it, or me having the idea to change it. But also, we are a community of different ages and different experiences So I'm hoping to have more people who are open to change so that we are more inclusive (laughs) in our ace community.

[00:20:13] Charlie Ocean: Our mutual friend Cody, I know, will be probably a little bit panicked if it's not still purple. (both laugh) But, like, but I'm all for not once again centering whiteness or allies. So, yeah.

I relate to aceness a little bit differently in a way where sometimes, I don't feel like I have a say in that. Which maybe is just like the "queer enough" in another form (laughs) that I need to work through, because I don't lead with, you know, being demisexual or fraysexual and the complexities of that and the fluidity behind those; that's why I feel like I can't have a stake in it. I don't spend a lot of meaningful time, whatever, I guess that could look like like in ace spaces.

[00:21:00] Ashabi Owagboriaye: Mm-hmm.

[00:21:01] Charlie Ocean: So -

[00:21:02] Ashabi Owagboriaye: I mean -

[00:21:03] Charlie Ocean: But I'll be super curious to watch and see what happens. (Ashabi laughs) Yeah.

[00:21:07] Ashabi Owagboriaye: Honestly, like if I don't want it to be like a, "You're not asexual enough to respond to these things." Like, if you've experienced asexuality in any capacity, like, you still have an opinion, and your opinion should be valued to some capacity, like, you've still aligned with that to some degree in your life, and you've still had that experience, and have still, like, given yourself the opportunity to feel if that aligns with you or not.

And regardless of whether or not you are asexual, I think it is geared mostly towards asexual community. Queer people have still fought towards not including allies in our spaces, because again, they are not experiencing queerness the same way we are, and they can realistically dip when their feelings are hurt and say, "Fuck queers." And we don't want that as a part of like our allyship or advocacy or like people who align with us or want to stand with us through our like hardships, like that's not fair.

And that should be not be centered at all, realistically, and we have had conversations like these across marginalized communities, and we should be able to make space for more people who are aligned to our experiences, versus people who can leave and go as they so please, whether or not they feel like they want to be part of that hardship or not.

[00:22:22] Charlie Ocean: Well, hopefully this is, (both laugh) helpful for people listening to hear the, like, even I myself struggle through some of this stuff, so.

If people want to get involved in the ace flag project, how can they? Should they follow you, like, on Instagram, or?

[00:22:40] Ashabi Owagboriaye: Yeah, I'm going to be launching it the week of International Asexuality Day or on International Asexuality Day itself.

And I'm going to be posting it on Ace in Grace and I know AVEN will also share it. And I'm also trying to get a few more ace-centered orgs to also share and like uplift it as well.

[00:22:59] Charlie Ocean: That's awesome. So, knowing that it's falling on April 6th, and of course we also have later in the year, in October, Ace Week.

But yeah, for April 6th, International Asexuality Day, what actionable steps and resources do you recommend for people who want to better understand asexuality and support the ace community?

[00:23:28] Ashabi Owagboriaye: I would say follow creators that don't align with your lived experience, because that's the best way to just learn and understand how to best support marginalized communities. I would also say be more willing to listen to those experiences, versus be combative if they don't align with who you are and how you live your life. I would also say give yourself an opportunity to engage with intention whenever you do enter certain spaces that center asexuality.

I know there's going to be a 24-hour live-stream on International Asexuality Day, so like, if you end up hopping into that, you know, listen to us, listen to people who are communicating, sharing their stories, and kind of just sit back and hear about how that may or may not fit in with how you live your life.

Maybe people who are part of your communities may align with that, maybe tell them to join. Just give yourself a lot of opportunity to hear a lot of stories and see how you can be as best of a co-conspirator and advocate to the asexual community as you can be.

[00:24:33] Charlie Ocean: I love it. (Ashabi laughs) Perfect. When there's cultural awareness events throughout the year and your work is amplified, how does it feel to have your account and work elevated certain times of the year like Black History Month or Ace Week? Does it feel good to you or do you feel like it's tokenizing to a degree?

[00:24:57] Ashabi Owagboriaye: I love that you asked this question because I thought about this (laughs) for a while. I dance, the line of taking advantage of being uplifted during these months, and also understanding that it's really weird that people are choosing to uplift me because they remember (laughs) that I exist during this specific month.

Sometimes, depending on who the creator is, depending on who these people are, I will absolutely align myself with that and like give myself an opportunity to have that conversation with them because I already interact with them in general. When it's people who are just kind of like, "Yeah, I want you to do this because this is who you are and you don't matter at any other time of the year."

Like, I have turned down many opportunities (laughs) when I've been reached out for that. And it makes me very upset because I'm just like, don't ask me to be present for you, A.) unpaid, B.) as a Black person, C.) just because you want to seem inclusive and want to have more people come to your brand, and also not do so at any other time of the year. That is very tokenizing to me.

And depending on how I'm feeling, depending on what month it is, I will probably just not be present, because I know what's going to happen. I don't want to be a part of that. And that is a blow to me sometimes, but also it's saving my mental health and allowing me to put energy elsewhere and people will know I come back.

That's kind of how I navigate that and how I have chosen to move forward in that capacity, because it just makes me feel a lot more in control of how I show up in the world.

[00:26:30] Charlie Ocean: You mentioned a book that solidified many of your opinions on refusing compulsory sexuality. So I'm wondering if you can tell us the name of the book, the author, and elaborate on how this book influenced your views and key takeaways that you gained from it.

[00:26:48] Ashabi Owagboriaye: Yeah, so the book is called, "Refusing Compulsory Sexuality: A Black Asexual Lens on Our Sex Obsessed Culture" by Sharonda J. Brown. And the book itself, before it came out, I was really excited because I'm just like, Sharonda's Great, they're a dope human being. They're very private, so I'm like, I was really excited about them coming out with a book in general.

And me reading the book, it's like, how do I say this, it's kind of like, you know you have all these thoughts in your head about how you live your life, and you feel as though you're the only one experiencing these things. Sometimes you like spiral, or just like, "I'm so distressed about me feeling so alone in this."

That book kind of gave me the opportunity to not only feel less alone, but also understand that what I'm feeling is a collective experience, and that I should not feel like I am the only person experiencing these things, or being distressed by these things, or that these things are invisible or not true or like some other negative thought that was assigned to me because of how I've been outspoken about it.

And the book itself talks about how Black women especially are being perceived, like the mammy, the Jezebel, and like how we are just inherently sexualized. And how, because of that, we are seen as unable to be asexual people or experience asexuality. And because of that, it's even harder for us to come out as asexual people, because as a whole, Black women have been sexualized from the jump, and society does not allow us to deviate from that without us being exposed to some sort of harm that would then push us back to be seen as that sexual creature or sexual person - or not even, like to be essentially dehumanized because that's most comfortable for people to see us as.

So that book kind of just like solidified that in itself for me, because again, I grew up not having any of these things so I was just kind of like, "Am I the only one feeling these things?" And like, not being around Black women, especially, to have conversations like these with is just kind of like, "Am I feeling these things by myself?" And it's like, "No you're not. Here's what that comes from, here's how you're affirmed in those thoughts, and here's decades, hundreds and years of history that has solidified those experiences for all Black people, but especially like Black women and people who have experienced Black femininity to some degree, you're not alone."

And I want more people to read it because again, like when you're reading experiences, and you're reading books like these from marginalized people, you are then given an outlook that allows you to see the world differently, and also put different pieces together that allows you to see how these specific experiences have also influenced how you see people, how you personally move, how you can deconstruct those biases, and how you can be a better co-conspirator, a better advocate, and a more intentional human being - and a person people can see as someone who understands the importance of safety and can also be more vocal when others can't.

So that's kind of what that book gave to me. Shout out to Sharonda for writing it. I just want everyone to read that book, like forever. I want it to be a part of like school, to be (both laugh) honest.

[00:30:16] Charlie Ocean: It sounds like it lends itself well, yeah. I unofficially, let's say, minored in human sexuality and women's studies, and I was baffled, at like, you know, as someone who was assigned female at birth, different connections, I wasn't even making. Part of that, cause like I failed girlhood and proudly so. Like, I was never trying to be a girl, even though my grandma was like, "Be more ladylike." And I'm like, "No." (Ashabi laughs)

So yeah, that was a cute little tomboy, but yeah, as I started, you know, taking these classes and I was like, so fascinated. One of the things that came up, especially I think in the bachelor's program, there was some documentary that I can't recall the name of it right now, but -

(post-interview add-in) The name is "Miss Representation."

I want to say every couple of years they update it. So I'm thinking about you being a Black woman, I'm thinking about you being a model, and one of the things they talked about when you mentioned being dehumanized was that you typically saw Black women who were modeling in animal print. And that was it.

[00:31:18] Ashabi Owagboriaye: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:31:19] Charlie Ocean: But yeah, you're reducing them to that. You're not even allowing them to have like a human identity. Now that I can see that, I'm just like, "holy shit," but it just wasn't something I was realizing in the advertisements of whatever it was, cologne, whatever the hell.

But yeah, was that something that was like also covered in the book?

[00:31:37] Ashabi Owagboriaye: Yeah, regardless, a lot of dehumanization is really subtle. You don't even realize it until you realize it, and then you realize it being everywhere. And it's just very, very insane to me, because Black women are usually just seen as parts. Women in general are just seen as parts, but Black women especially are usually just seen as parts.

[00:31:53] Charlie Ocean: And exotic!

[00:31:54] Ashabi Owagboriaye: Yes, exotic!

[00:31:55] Charlie Ocean: Like a fucking car? Like, what -

[00:31:56] Ashabi Owagboriaye: I was just like, "Wow." It's like, "Oh, we're so like, feisty, we're so hot-headed, we're so aggressive." And I'm just like, "Why are you doing this to me? I want to cry. Like, please stop. Like, this is not like how I want to be perceived."

But like, it's just like we live in a world that doesn't want to acknowledge all these little things and how these little things add up to how you end up seeing me as a person, or seeing me as less than a person. Like, even for the longest time, Black people weren't even seen as people. So like, add that to being a Black woman.

It's just like, "Okay, this is just going to be an uphill battle for a lot of us until we start to, you know, acknowledge how these biases actually affect how we move as a society and support and uplift this specific community."

And it's just, yeah, as a model, that should suck. I, (laughs) like, I refuse to do a lot of things and, like, pose in specific ways. And it's like, "I know how this will be perceived and I don't want to be seen as that way." But even as me having more control of my image, I was still demeaned. I was still masculinized. I was still seen as not even a woman, because of being a Black woman you're also seen as not feminine enough, or like, not beautiful enough.

And it's just like, a lot of these things affect how we hold ourselves in society in general. And if you're living in a world where you don't have Black queer elders or Black elders and queer people who are able to have these discussions with you, how do you end up moving with confidence? And it's really important for like, books like this to exist. There's just like, your experiences are affirmed. You are not living this alone.

But it sucks because we live in a world where our stories aren't being told with intention, or the stories that are being told are trauma porn. Why are we starting in the trenches and having to claw our ways out, barely, and then have some sort of savior-esque person come and tell us everything's gonna be okay?

Like, why does it have to be like that? I would really love to see a world where that's no longer a thing, and I think more people are giving way to Black artists and Black creators and Black authors to tell stories that align with more hope and joy - and stories that make us feel more human.

But again, it's hard to find that. So books like this are really important to have because it gives us at least some more history and context as to where it came from so that we can be more intentional about how to not do it moving forward.

[00:34:13] Charlie Ocean: Yeah. And I know people may be quick to like push back and be like, "Oh, well, I'm sure there's only like a few examples of these Black women, you know, being forced to wear animal print or something." (Ashabi laughs) It's like, no, these documentaries do a pretty good job of curating a really healthy list and presentation for you to show this isn't just like something that happened only a few times and yeah -

[00:34:36] Ashabi Owagboriaye: Yeah.

[00:34:37] Charlie Ocean: There's threads that continue. (Ashabi laughs)

What can you tell us about the intersection between transness and asexuality and what is the connection there? (Ashabi gasps with excitement)

I know it was like one of the things you (Ashabi laughs) wanted to talk about and I was like, "Where do I fit this in?"

[00:34:51] Ashabi Owagboriaye: I know! Okay. Okay. Let me first think about this question again.

So when I brought this question up to you originally it's something that was always on my mind when it comes to transness and asexuality, because when you're thinking about these two specific identities it's almost like you see them as polar opposites. And some people you don't really see the overlap because you don't have the lived experience to see that.

But for me, personally, it's like you're experiencing asexuality - let's say you're like totally asexual. Let's say like that's who you are as a person, you live without sexual attraction being top-of-mind, which means you're seeing more desirability with platonic connections. You're seeing more desirability with aesthetics. You're seeing more desirability with community and ways to show love and show attraction without feeling like you have to express that in a sexual manner.

Transness, for me, shows the ability to become something that you were always meant to be and become something that has always been a part of you in a more authentic way.

And both these identities de-center heteronormativity in the most aggressive way (Ashabi laughs) and in the most intentional way. And the overlap there, for me, shows that these two experiences have been seen as lesser, have been ostracized from modern history, society, and we often see them as very quick to dehumanize and very quick to lessen.

And it's so frustrating for me because if you ever meet a person who's asexual and you ever meet a person who's trans, you'll always see that their connection to community is what makes them thrive the most and what makes them become who they are supposed to be and be as authentically loud and proud in their identities as they should be.

And lead conversations and lead communities and lead organizations and lead events that bring us all to a point that allows more people who aren't even part of this identity to be seen and feel more comforted in who they are and how they're living their journey. And I really wish people understood that that overlap is, for me, very intentional and for me something that allows me to feel more comfortable in how I live my life.

Again, Black trans women did the shit. They did it. It's the only reason why a lot of us are here and out loud in our communities. And on top of that, Black trans women centered everyone else. Like, everyone else has been uplifted by Black trans women.

With asexuality, despite the fact that it's not the most out-loud sexuality in experience, most asexuals center their friends. Most asexuals center their communities. They center different aspects of love. And for me, personally, I will not entertain a romance or sexual interest that does not uplift me the same way my friends do.

And that is my bare minimum, and that should be everyone's bare minimum because your friends are the ones that care for you. They hold you. They love you. They support you. They tell you what it is immediately. And if you don't entertain somebody who doesn't do that at the bare minimum, what are you doing? Why are you centering that? Why are you putting yourself in a position where romance is the only way you could experience love and sexual interaction is the only way you can experience community? Like, there's so many different ways to do that.

And just knowing that these two things are seen as lesser, or these two things are seen as less desirable, pisses me off. Because quite literally, like, these two experiences, if we had less bias around sexuality and gender, and understood how to listen to people who are from most marginalized communities, these two experiences could bridge so many gaps that we are missing in how we choose to move forward as a society.

It would allow for so much progress to occur. And that's just how I see transness and asexuality and how I want more people to value those identities, because quite literally, we wouldn't be here without understanding why it's important to value them both.

[00:39:09] Charlie Ocean: And the, the friendship piece is really big because we've just historically placed romantic and sexual relationships above them. We can sometimes really shit on friendships and you know, maybe only praise them if they're like a best friend or something, or someone might even say something like, I married my best friend. It's weird how we can have that, I don't know, duality. Yeah, and not emphasizing the friendships enough.

Because especially a thread that can be so important in the LGBTQ+ community is - and you know, even in neurodivergence and I'm sure there's other like areas where this applies - but the concept of chosen family, which, to me, is even more important because it's like, I've intentionally chose you as part of my family and we've mutually done that, otherwise that's hella awkward. (both laugh) And so - "So, I know you don't feel the same way. Oops, I'm gonna go run away forever now."

The friendships, the chosen family, all that to me is just like so much more intentional and so much better because it's, and you know, this is my autism probably, I just have never understood why there's so much emphasis placed on blood, because some of the people closest to me in my bloodline hurt me some of the most. But I still have to love them, I still have to forgive them, I still - no, like, why - how the fuck does that make sense?

[00:40:34] Ashabi Owagboriaye: It took me a very long time to accept that as well. I wish with all my heart that my parents and my family was more accepting and understanding to me. And it took me a really long time to understand that it's not fair to me to hold on to a relationship that's causing me harm. And it also took me a longer time to accept how that has also shown up in my relationships outside of my family.

And being able to work past a lot of the issues that I've had, specifically with that dynamic, has also allowed me to see how I accepted a lot of shitty things because of those things. But now I'm at a point where I can, with confidence, say that I don't deserve to be treated like that, I don't deserve to be exposed to those things, I deserve a lot better for me; has allowed me to, again, build the community that I deserve, have that chosen family, and center my friends a lot more without having the desire to be in a romantic relationship.

Because even if I were to end up in a romantic or like sexual relationship, I would want to have a community of people behind me that are able to give me support in case that goes to the wayside. I want to be able to say, "Oh yeah, this person was introduced to me by this person." And if I were to need to hold this person accountable, I should be able to have a community of people on my side, and on this person's side, to have conversations that allow us to amend the relationship or allow us to have more openness and care towards each other whether the relationship ends up continuing or not.

There should be a lot more emphasis around community, realistically, and the importance of why that is so necessary for us, again, to progress as a society.

[00:42:17] Charlie Ocean: So the whole conversation can basically be summed up: community. (Ashabi laughs) Period. That's it.

[00:42:23] Ashabi Owagboriaye: Yes.

[00:42:23] Charlie Ocean: Community: it's everything.

[00:42:25] Ashabi Owagboriaye: Yes.

[00:42:26] Charlie Ocean: Or "everywhere you want to be," (Ashabi laughs) because I have branding stuck in my head as a millennial from L.A.

But I was thinking, as you were sharing that, I don't know why I feel moved to share this, but I will. There's that quote that used to go around that "you have to love yourself before you can love anyone else," and you're making a face about that. (both laugh) My experience to that has been that community has taught me how to love myself, and so I don't think that we have to have our shit together in order for other people to see the good in us, and to see us for who we are, and love us through all of that.

And yeah, I really have community to thank for that, in a lot of ways, including all the people who are neuroqueer or queer or neurodivergent, like not at the intersection, at different intersections, but being able to have people that so vulnerably share about their experiences and share the memes and all that.

So I can have a conversation with my friend this morning and laugh about our preferred utensils and why, (laughs) and then feel a little bit more seen and validated in a "huh" kind of way that's cool.

But that said, what's one allyship tip you'd like everyone listening to consider?

[00:43:48] Ashabi Owagboriaye: Giving yourself an opportunity to tap into that childlike wonder and assume less.

I've actually been having this conversation a lot recently, because we talked about like having discernment. So like, there are certain assumptions that I have based off of safety reasons, and those assumptions, again, keep me safe. But then there's other opportunities that I have where it's just like, regardless of me being aware of where this could go, I will continue asking questions because I just want to know.

Like, I could be wrong, and I want to be proven wrong, and I want to learn and give myself every opportunity to learn, despite that being a very overwhelming, all-day ADHD thing - like, I have too much knowledge sometimes. It's just like, I need to stop asking questions and just be fine with not knowing. (laughs) But I want to like know, I want to know who you are, I want to know more about you, I want to know what brought you here. That could also be like a therapist in me, but that's a whole other (laughs) type thing.

But I just really enjoy learning about people. Like I really want to know as much as I can about you. And I think me doing that has allowed me to also have less and less biases and understand where people are coming from: where they're at, how I can be supportive, if I should be supportive, if they need support, how can I show up for this specific person or this community if they choose to accept me in or have me as a part of their life?

And if my assumptions end up leading me to a place that could have room for, like, a long-lasting friendship, then oh my gosh, amazing. If those conversations and questions lead me to more frustration, then okay, I just learned something, and I have another tool in my toolbox in case something else goes awry (laughs) in that capacity. (both laugh) Like, it's just like -

[00:45:36] Charlie Ocean: I gotta laugh because the jargon in our professions is just like "Ugh." You hear yourself saying it sometimes, you're like, "Oh, yep, there it is." (both laugh)

[00:45:43] Ashabi Owagboriaye: I hate it. It just makes so much sense it's like, (Charlie laughs) "Yes, another tool in my toolbox, wow."

And also just like kids themselves - I have a whole other, like, dissertation topic around kids - but I really do appreciate how kids just show up authentically in the world. Sometimes they're mean, sometimes they're great, but at the end of the day, they're just trying to figure things out. And we should be able to give ourselves the opportunity to figure things out without assuming that we should know everything because we're elders or adults.

We just got here. Realistically, like, a lot of us are also millennials, so now we have big people money. And a lot of us are also spending it on, like, big kid shit. A lot of fucking people have Lego sets in their home. I have a big ass beanbag that I got purely for the sake of (laughs) my childhood not having that. Like, I want to be able to honor that as much as I can.

Because I wasn't given the opportunity to ask those questions when I was younger. And now that I can ask those questions as an adult, I have more language, I have more opportunities to, like, remove myself from discomfort if I have it, or at least defend myself if I need to, and advocate for myself if I need to.

So, like, leading with childlike wonder as an adult has allowed me to make really meaningful connections and also give them the opportunity to ask questions like that, too. And again, like, lessen shame, and at least know how to embrace that shame with less embarrassment and understand how that can be a really transform- transformable, trans- is "transformable" a word? (both laugh)

[00:47:17] Charlie Ocean: It could be.

[00:47:17] Ashabi Owagboriaye: Transforming? Transformable moment for us all. So, yeah, that's kind of where that comes from.

[00:47:24] Charlie Ocean: Yeah, I'll go ahead and stop recording.

[00:47:27] Ashabi Owagboriaye: Oh wait, no, don't do that yet, hold on.

[00:47:29] Charlie Ocean: Okay.

[00:47:29] Ashabi Owagboriaye: Beep boop bop. Okay, can you give like a little peace sign?

[00:47:33] Charlie Ocean: Okay, sure.

[00:47:34] Ashabi Owagboriaye: Oh, so cute! Okay, I wanted to record the fact that we're at 2 hours and 27 (laughs) minutes.

[00:47:42] Charlie Ocean: Yeah, so I'm going to hit stop recording now. (both laugh)

Yeah, that, that was real. It's definitely on the longer side (laughs) of the conversations I've had with guests on the podcast. So Ashabi, thank you for being so generous with your time. I was definitely cussing myself out in post production, but it was worth it.

It was just such a treat to chat with you. So, thank you, thank you, thank you. And thank you for all of the incredible wisdom you've shared. I appreciate it so, so much.

So remember folks, they have that ace flag revision survey happening right now; takes about three minutes. If you're ace, I encourage you to take it. If you're not, I encourage you to pass it on to folks that you may know who are ace, and I will be super curious to see what happens with the results.

But, for now, the last three self-reflection questions.

4. When was the last time I tapped into childlike wonder?

5. Do I love myself? What or who taught me how to love myself? How could I love myself a little bit louder?

6. When is last time I experienced discomfort in my allyship? What happened?

(begin synth-pop musical PSA)

" I am Cait" could've been great. Surrounded by elder queers, but it's like her ears didn't hear.

[00:49:33] Charlie Ocean: I won't deadname you. I won't misgender you too. But I still hate you with a fiery passion. Come on folks, let's get to action.

Someone please deplatform her, then maybe we could finally reform her.

I will still hold on to hope, she'll stop being, a self-hating trope.

Dear, dear Caitlyn. Please, please listen. And just shut the fuck up. Shut the fuck up, shut the fuck up, and just shut the fuck up. You do nothing but harm our community.

So if you get a chance to be quiet, go ahead and grab it and shut the fuck up. Just shut the fuck up. Dear Caitlyn. (end musical PSA for Caitlyn Jenner)

Visit AllyshipIsAVerb.com for any resources and a full transcript of the episode.

And remember, sometimes allyship means tapping into childlike wonder and assuming less.