[00:17] Chris Angel Murphy
Well, hello there. My name is Chris Angel and my pronouns are they/them. Welcome to Allyship is a Verb, the LGBTQ+ podcast that explores and humanizes practicing allyship for the LGBTQ+ community and beyond!

[00:38] Ra Ra Rollins
Hey hey, my name is Ra Ra; my pronouns are he/him.

[00:42] Chris Angel Murphy
If you follow me on Instagram, you know that recently I created a reel and I talked about a tip that has helped me a great deal and I wanted to offer to other people to consider. And that is: I get misgendered a lot. People use the wrong name for me, they call me Chris instead of Chris Angel. They use he/him pronouns instead of they/them. And rather than have someone say "I'm sorry" to me, it feels a lot better when people thank me. And the reason why is because when someone says "I'm sorry," then I feel like I'm in this weird position where I have to make them feel better about a mistake they made. And I don't want to because I'm already sitting in my own discomfort of having been either misgendered or being called the wrong name.

[01:36] Chris Angel Murphy
And so when someone instead says "thank you", it feels a lot better. And you could say "thank you for your patience," "thank you for letting me know," "thank you for the reminder," there's so many other examples I could give you of how you could say "thank you," but put your own spin on it.

[01:55] Chris Angel Murphy
If you're not already following me on Instagram and you would like to, I post a lot about my life, I talk about being neurodivergent, I talk about being queer, trans, and nonbinary. Sometimes I share photos from my childhood or just various stories. And I also share out tips and other resources and amplify other voices. I also get a lot of people following me on Instagram for my stories because I'm highlighting various resources, awareness events, and things like that. So, if you'd like to follow me too, my handle on Instagram is @gendersexualityinfo

[02:35] Chris Angel Murphy
This next guest I am so excited to introduce you to because, like many of my conversations, we could have talked forever, and he's just fucking brilliant. And so it was really hard to make cuts to try to stay within my roughly 60-minute format. However, Ra Ra is an award-winning leader, psychotherapist, researcher, and creative. He's currently in New York, but originally from the South. We met through a mutual connection, Katrina, who was a guest last season. And goodness, am I so grateful to have met him because, again, he's brilliant. Seriously, I love connecting with him, and even though we've literally only had two conversations so far, that's how much those conversations have impacted me.

[03:21] Chris Angel Murphy
I'm still processing things he said. One of my favorite things he said during our first conversation was, "be the chaos." I won't even go into what he meant because I don't want to ruin it by sharing my version of events; I would love for you to have heard it in his words. However, it wasn't a conversation that we were recording. So I will simply say interpret that as you will, because I know I'm now figuring out how to live my life in that way. I'd also like to offer a content warning for later in the episode as we reference some hard things. However, we do not go into specifics.

[03:58] Chris Angel Murphy
That being said, I'm now going to jump into our first three self-reflection questions and make sure after the conversation to stick around for three more before you go.

1. What's the first physical thing I notice about people when I first meet them or see them?

2. What's the first physical thing people tend to notice about me?

3. Do I notice who is not in the room or being represented at work or at times when big decisions are being made?

[04:34] Chris Angel Murphy
And now, because I am super eager for you to meet Ra Ra, here's our conversation.

[04:40] Chris Angel Murphy
You are Black, queer, gay, and polyamorous: what do those identities mean to you?

[04:48] Ra Ra Rollins
Easily put, oppression. They mean being outside of the norm. They mean constantly having to explain myself and define myself as a human. They also mean, I think, a level of self-education; to understand why I identify as these things. I think to be Black, for instance, is such a broad and expansive term that means something to me as a Southern Black person, than it may to an African person, for instance. I think identity is something I choose. It is control, it is power, and it's expansive. They come and go, depending on how I feel, and how I want to be viewed.

[05:39] Chris Angel Murphy
That makes a lot of sense. And I'm curious about how "queer" and "gay" as identities honor you differently.

[05:46] Ra Ra Rollins
Yeah, so this took a minute for me, I think. Growing up, I heard the word "queer." At one point, I remember being very young an aunt, saying something to the effect of queer and it was pointed towards me. I was not supposed to hear it and I didn't know what it meant, but I knew it was bad. And I didn't hear it for a very big gap in my life. And now I'm hearing it again. And so I never want to offer these definitions with the understanding of this is how everyone defines them. But this is how I process them. "Queer" for me, I use as it's defined in the dictionary, as "odd." I am odd. I am weird. I am weird in Black spaces. I am weird in male spaces. I am weird in gay spaces. I am queer. I am off, I am non-normative. "Gay" defines who I want to have sex in a romantic relationship with.

[06:40] Chris Angel Murphy
Thinking about being Southern, something that I discuss when I am doing any sort of LGBTQ+ or allyship training is based on the data of what we know so far: most LGBTQ+ Americans in the States live in the South. And then you see, it's in the West, and then I believe it's the Northeast, and then the Midwest. Not everyone would expect that most LGBTQ+ adults would live in the South. One of my favorite resources is the Movement Advancement Project (https://www.lgbtmap.org/). And they map all of the various legislation that's in place, down sometimes even to cities, counties, etc. and show, specifically for the LGBTQ+ community, whether a state is more affirming or not. You can separate it by issue, whether it's about gender identity, sexual orientation, etc. So thinking about that statistic, when you look at the map, the rights (in the South) are lacking, or very discriminatory. I'm curious about how that feels for you, and what you think would need to change in the south to help move the conversation in a more loving, productive, place.

[08:01] Ra Ra Rollins
Thank you for educating me just now, I did not know that information. I suspect that there's a lot of overlap with regards to the races that are populated within the South as well, specifically, Black people. So now you have this intersectional space of gay queerness and Blackness. And I think when you add race into that conversation, it becomes a little more clear on perhaps why legislation is so preventative in these spaces. And it's to limit access, limit rights, it's restrictive.

[08:39] Ra Ra Rollins
I think controversially, in the South, there also tends to be a lot of Christianity. And again, there's overlap when you start talking about Black communities and Christianity. And when we talk about Christianity and politics, I think the story becomes very, very clear. I look at Christianity as a white supremacy cult. It was forced upon Black people taken from Africa; brought to the United States. They were dehumanized by being deculturated. And part of that, a large part of that, was religious restrictions: the need to impart what white people wanted them to believe. That has turned into generational trauma in this day and age, and that our old religions are completely gone. And we are left with this Christian savior, and that Christian savior is playing in pretty much every single political sphere right now. If we talked about abortion, for instance, that is a Christian situation going on; it has to do with Christianity and what the Bible says is appropriate. Argue that if you would like, right?

[09:51] Chris Angel Murphy
Yeah, and people's interpretations of it, too.

[09:54] Ra Ra Rollins
Exactly, I'm a very strong believer that the undertow is Christianity and when we link that to Black communities -it pits us against each other, really. I understand that I've diverted from the idea of LGBTQ+ and that population being so robust in the South, I don't think we can have one conversation without having multiple conversations surrounding oppressed people. Intersectionality is very real. And I think gay queerness in the Black community is also real, and also incredibly hidden, again, because of Christianity. We have to really start having a deep and honest conversation about how much Christianity influences politics.

[10:34] Chris Angel Murphy
Yeah, there's no separation of church and state.

[10:37] Ra Ra Rollins
Absolutely not. God is on our- I haven't picked up a dollar in so long, [Chris Angel laughs] but God is on our currency. And yet, and still, church and state are supposed to be separate. So to alter the atrocities that are going on in our political sphere right now, we have to have that conversation. Christianity is not the norm for everyone. Christianity is not even a footnote for some of us. I live in a world, even though I'm trying desperately to get away from Christianity, that I still have to engage in. For me, that is the answer. We have to engage Christianity.

[11:12] Chris Angel Murphy
When thinking about your identities, going to media, so thinking about shows, movies, books, etc. have you ever seen yourself or any parts of your story reflected in any media?

[11:26] Ra Ra Rollins
Thank you so much for asking that question. I think that Moonlight for me, I've only seen once, because it just resonated so closely. Even still, there was a level of violence and jail time that didn't resonate with me, because that's not my life. So no, I haven't. I think that I have seen specific people in media that just resonate with me, André Leon Talley comes to mind, but as like a story or a continuous form of storytelling? No. And it's one of the reasons that I've just like, worked tirelessly through getting my recent degree, because I've literally never seen a Black, queer, gay therapist; cis male therapist. I've never personally had a Black, queer, cis (cisgender) male therapist. And I've definitely never seen me represented in a TV show, when someone goes to a therapist, for instance.

[12:27] Chris Angel Murphy
Well, the representation of therapists in media is questionable, [both laugh] because I even I love Ted Lasso so much, it shows us a different kind of masculinity. That aside, one of the things I've noticed is that it was the therapist that's on that show, I think is closer to how therapy is. However, even then there's still things they break that ideally wouldn't happen in real life, because we have code of ethics, etc. But yeah, that's, that's Hollywood for you, I guess. Gotta make things interesting. But yeah, especially with therapists just again, even in media, I've never seen them accurate. There's just always something problematic that comes up and not that we're not human and, you know, prone to error and everything, but again, things that, things that are not the norm.

[13:21] Ra Ra Rollins
Yeah, I think to expand on the conversation, I think when there is, let's just say me, right? And for those who have never seen me, I am 6' 3", I am 230 pounds, I am heavily tattooed, I am bald, I have a presence; but also very gentle, I think, and very thoughtful and kind, but you wouldn't know that until I start speaking. But when I-when I see me in media, there's always something problematic. There's always something toxic, or HIV, or a lack of communication skills, homelessness, joblessness. There's never me thriving as the main character, being fabulous. You know, I've never seen that. And I think to expand the conversation even further, I've never seen Ted Lasso, for instance. I don't watch a lot of media any longer, cause I'm done. I don't want to keep supporting things that don't support me.

[14:19] Chris Angel Murphy
It's tricky too because I wonder if this is true for you - there's this tension I carry of [sigh] sometimes things are very clear-cut for me. I can't recall the name of the movie. But there was a larger movie that came out that was trying to talk about Stonewall but then completely whitewashed it and so I told anyone and everyone who would listen to me "do not support that film!" However, we do have a white, gay, male problem in Hollywood because far and away, those are largely the stories we see if we are seeing those at all. And part of the problem with that is, I feel, this-so coming back to the tension, I feel like if I don't support those, that it doesn't pave the way for more diverse stories to be told. And I always feel like I'm watching them going, "okay, but these, supposed side or secondary characters are far more interesting to me. Why aren't they the lead?"

[15:15] Ra Ra Rollins
Yeah.

[15:15] Chris Angel Murphy
You know, why isn't that the story that we're telling? Am I doing our community a disservice by not supporting them and hoping, again, that the diversity will come? And maybe that's not the answer.

[15:28] Ra Ra Rollins
Yeah, I don't know what the answer is. That particular movie, I think was called Stonewall, I think you're referencing it was, it was made by Roland Emmerich, who also made Independence Day, he makes these giant, horrible, movies [Chris Angel laughs] that make a lot of money - in my opinion, not Allyship is a Verb. [both laugh] These movies make a lot of money, we're talking about capitalism, right? We are not seeing what we want to see, if it's not making money. Even though in the lexicon, diversity is being screened, inclusivity is being screened, and it doesn't work unless money is being made, right? So I'm thinking about that Stonewall Movie was god awful. And I hear what you're saying about wanting to support these things when they come out, but is it really helping? I don't know. I'm not sure how many people saw that movie.

[16:18] Ra Ra Rollins
I'm thinking about, um, I watch a lot of Marvel content. I'm a Marvel fan, always have been. And I'm thinking about Ms. Marvel that just finished recently, which is the story of a Muslim family. There is a lot of education that I received from this show, this Disney+ show, and it didn't do well, at all. I think it's like the lowest watched Marvel property, like ever. What's the conversation there? Was it a bad show? Absolutely not. It was fantastic. There were tons of fight scenes. The CGI was beautiful, costumes were amazing, the acting was pristine. We're having a conversation about Muslims and America. And then you're asking me why the show didn't do well? Hmm. I don't engage media too much, any longer, because no one's actually talking about money when it comes to media. We're not seeing what we want to see because it doesn't make money.

[17:08] Chris Angel Murphy
Yeah, if we're lucky, maybe we're friends with Ryan Murphy and we can pitch something to him and [both laugh] take advantage of his resources and get something greenlit. But yeah, there's, there's a lot to that. Well, going into social media, normally, I don't, like, stalk guests before they come on the show, but I do try to browse a little bit and see what's going on in this person's life; you know, sometimes it helps inform questions, as I'm preparing to have a guest on. But you went completely off the map with the exception of LinkedIn. And I'm curious about what went into that decision.

[17:46] Ra Ra Rollins
I appreciate you asking that. Because it was a very deep decision. I think you caught me at a sweet time where I actually engaged social media. I have in the past and very small snippets, but never to the way that I recently did, which I established April 2022. And I very quickly got a lot of followers. And it became very overwhelming, very quickly. The way that I try to pitch my voice when I'm processing content is- I watched George Floyd die as a 6' 3", 230 pound man, who's 41. And George Floyd was, don't quote me, 6' 4", 230 pounds, and he was 46. This person was me when I watched this person get lynched on television. And then I became a mental health professional, two years after that. So all of my mental health content comes from that point of view.

[18:38] Ra Ra Rollins
And I actively push against the things that I learned from white professors who taught about white theorists, and white supervisors, white clients. All of my content had to do with being the queer person in this space. Also the gay person, also the Black person, right? And I think that's why I did so well, so quickly. A lot of my content also had to do with the undercurrent of Black community not respecting or trusting mental health resources. And that's partly because usually, it's not coming from someone who looks like me. So there were a lot of DMs, I felt overwhelmed. I felt like a therapist to everyone, and I was not getting paid. What I decided to do was process why I was doing it. And I made the decision that I had reached enough people and offered enough resources. And I also had to practice what I preach and I had to start self caring, because I was overworking myself.

[19:37] Ra Ra Rollins
To create a TikTok, it's a lot of work, and I had no idea until I started doing it. I was populating pretty much every platform, usually with like the same content for that moment. But the copy was changed. The language was changed, the visuals were changed. It took so much out of me as a full time student with like 20 clients and a part time job. You know, so I became very, very overwhelmed.

[20:02] Ra Ra Rollins
In addition to that, social media has trolls in it. I didn't understand this troll thing until I engaged. And I didn't want to close my DMs, because there were people who were actually asking for help, not from me, but to like, direct them. And I didn't want to close myself off to those people. But that left me open to really aggressive comments, very hurtful about the way I looked, the way I talked, what I was offering, why I was offering it, sexuality. . . and so I ultimately made the decision to quietly go away when I delete all the accounts, except for LinkedIn, because I think LinkedIn offers a resource that I need at this moment and that is networking, career advice... Social media can be wonderful. It's my experience that that wonderment was circumvented by the toxicity that can come your way.

[21:00] Chris Angel Murphy
Well, I applaud you for protecting your energy and it makes me wonder; because Katrina was a former guest on my podcast in the first season. And you were on their podcast back in June, it's called Absolutely Not. And two things I wanted to follow up on specifically, were, and these are direct quotes, "I don't feel safe being quiet anymore." "Being quiet also got me nowhere." And so thinking about social media, and how it can be a platform for not being quiet, I'm curious, what does that look like now?

[21:39] Ra Ra Rollins
I think it looks and sounds like this conversation. It is much more intentional, scheduled, structured, those two quotes are true, and still apply, I am now more tenured and understanding what these platforms offer and the protections that they do not offer. Those quotes were also, they were linked to the way that I engage the world. I was often taught to be quiet and fall back. And that came from a Black single mother, from the South, who herself have extreme traumas, and understood that if a Black man speaks up, that they perhaps might be killed, you know? There's no kind of in-between where you're safe. You might just be shot. You never talked back to the police, you do exactly what they say. You don't offer too much information, you disappear. And that's what I did.

[22:36] Ra Ra Rollins
I'm 41 at this point, and I'm only just learning how to be seen, I would say, within the last three or four years. And that hurts a bit because I had a whole career in fashion. I managed that career with that mindset of "don't be seen." How do you not be seen in a creative career that you are meant to showcase your talent? And I lost so many opportunities. I feel a level of success there, yay me, but I also know the things that I did not get based on not opening my mouth and not taking up space. And so those quotes are really about the way that I manage my life now, as opposed to a different time in my life.

[23:14] Chris Angel Murphy
And when you mentioned about feeling seen, like, what helps you to feel seen present day?

[23:20] Ra Ra Rollins
Again, I go back to something like this: I've been on podcasts before, but perhaps not because of my mind, my talents, the connections that I've made in my personal experience and the way the two industries that I've been involved in work. And how my identities influence, what I get and don't get - I think being seen is opportunity. While I thought I had a level of success in fashion, in the very short period of time that I've been in the psychology world, the level of opportunity that I've received has far exceeded the 11+ years that I worked in fashion. Again, that's because of me altering myself, and making it clear that I will not be hidden any longer. It takes practice, it takes normalizing that, and being asked my opinion, and then not- not getting pushed back when I offer it.

[24:42] Chris Angel Murphy
Yeah, and I know that's something that came up on the episode with Katrina because you two talked about being diversity hires, but then also not being listened to. So maybe you were asked the questions, maybe you were even in the room, but still it was more performative than anything else. Do you find that's something you still experience today in this newer field that you're in?

[25:38] Ra Ra Rollins
All the time, yeah. And I think to link the social media question in this: the training that a mental health professional gets, is very intense. Yet and still, someone who doesn't have that training can offer mental health tips on TikTok. While I went through this process and am now a Master of Counseling for Mental Health, I still get inquisitive responses to things that I've written 30 page papers on, trying to make me seem like I don't know what I'm talking about. You're not asking me to clarify, you're trying to put me down. And that happens all the time, to the point where I just go "okay". In some of my posts, I've started using this term, "mmmkay" - m-m-m-k-a-y - "mmmkay." And that's me being like, very dismissive, like, I have so many things going on, I literally don't have the energy to battle this with you.

[25:40] Chris Angel Murphy
There's better ways you could spend your time.

[25:40] Ra Ra Rollins
Exactly. You know, if I got a PhD, it would still show up. I anticipate it's not going to go away.

[25:47] Chris Angel Murphy
I noticed something on your listing as a therapist that I don't usually see. And again, another direct quote, "My commitment to social justice is personal. I'm learning how to respect myself more and have found silence on the social injustices playing us to be a detriment to my health. I'm committed to our liberation." So I have a lot of questions there. [both laugh ]But I will start with: what does respecting yourself look like and what's been helpful in doing that work?

[26:24] Ra Ra Rollins
Oh, um - Boundaries. If I tell you that I don't want to do something, and then I allow you to do that thing, I'm not respecting myself. So why should you? I am now learning boundaries, very difficult. Whenever you create a boundary, you instantly become the villain because you're not allowing someone else to do whatever they want to do more, which most people are used to - and I'm very firm.

[26:50] Ra Ra Rollins
Boundaries were not something that I, like, set out to do. As I started going through my educational process recently, I just didn't have the energy to show up for my clients, and my schoolwork, the way that I needed to unless I set really strict boundaries on offering my energy outside of those spaces. My social life effectively went away, my marriage crumbled - I had to focus. The boundary was I started this thing, I'm going to finish it. And that turned into really a life change. There were so many spaces in my life where I realized I was boundaryless, and I was disrespecting myself. And that's why I was feeling disrespect from the outside world. And so I altered that. I continue to alter that. And I continue to set boundaries, and I continue to stand very firm to my boundaries, because they are appropriate for me, even though they may be very inappropriate for other people.

[27:49] Chris Angel Murphy
Yeah, that reminds me of something I see pretty frequently on social media of, "no is a complete sentence."

[27:49] Ra Ra Rollins
Period. It is. And you can say it at any time. [laughs] There was a post, one of my favorite posts, which didn't get a lot of likes, I'm a little mad about it. [Chris Angel laughs] The copy said something like, "You can say no to anyone at any time, anywhere. It is not a curse word. You only need to say it once." I had a conversation with a friend recently who said, like, "why are you popping off at me?" and I was like, "I said 'no' and then you tried to alter that 'no'." When I say "no," and someone tries to push back, I turn and walk away. It is a very big conversation that I consistently have with literally every single one of my clients.

[28:26] Chris Angel Murphy
And when you say you're committed to our liberation, liberation can look differently for all of us. So when you're saying "our liberation," who are you talking about? And yeah, if you could paint a little bit of a picture for us - what that would look like.

[28:42] Ra Ra Rollins
Right.

[28:42] Chris Angel Murphy
I would love to know what that kind of world looks like for you.

[28:45] Ra Ra Rollins
Absolutely. I guess I'll start with this constant battle that I'm going through. Am I Black first? Or am I gay-queer first? It's so confusing and I deal with it daily. To answer the question: I am talking about both of those spaces. Because sometimes I am only Black, and sometimes I am only gay. And so I have access to both of those spaces and thus, there needs to be liberation within myself within both of those spaces. And I think liberation, I think you kind of actually already answered it. For me, it's very simple: the answer lies within yourself.

[29:21] Ra Ra Rollins
For me, which I constantly said in class and I constantly see people follow rules and regulations that don't serve them. For me it equals, there are no rules except what you allow. Liberate yourself from stuff that doesn't work for you. The root of the conversation is, if we stop engaging systems that don't work for us, those systems will crumble. And I think when we come from a mental health perspective, I stopped engaging how I should offer mental health to clients that are not prioritized in theories and modalities and research. etc. How dare you suggest to me that I should engage Black clients, and or Black, queer, clients with modalities and models that were not normed on them? They weren't even considered. But yet and still, I have to follow this rule. And so liberation for me as a therapist, "no, this doesn't work. It's not for me, I'm gonna liberate myself of this, I'm not doing this - stop me." Because all of these clients who are lined up to work with me, specifically, want to work with me for a reason. And that is because I've liberated myself of rules and regulations that don't work.

[30:39] Ra Ra Rollins
Personally, that kind of also goes in this direction of saying "no." I love saying no, all the time. And that feels very liberating because it's not the norm. I think liberation is queerness. Normality is easy. You don't have to think. There's a template. You do this, you do this, you do this, and this should happen. That is a privilege, I think to be liberated from that, allows a person to really become whoever they are. And again, at 41, I'm only just discovering that. I feel wholly liberated. I will also suggest that liberation is terrifying.

[31:18] Chris Angel Murphy
[laughs] Yes.

[31:20] Ra Ra Rollins
Because there are no rule books, when you suggest, "I'm just gonna figure this out, all on my own." So I think that's the mindset that I go into working with the populations, communities, that I work with: liberate yourself of these thought processes. For gay men, for instance, it may be that they have to get married, or they have to have children. And after we start talking, they don't want children, their parents want children. They're following someone else's rules, liberate yourself from that. But I don't think we talk like that. I wasn't engaged in that way, really, in any space I was in.

[31:58] Ra Ra Rollins
And I'm finding in working with clients, that it is liberating to them, to understand that they can be liberated, they can go outside of the box of what they have learned, of what has been, like, imposed upon them. I'm liberated for instance, in like my sexuality. When you see me, a lot of really hyper-sexualized things get placed upon my body. I was a top, because that's what I thought I should be, because that's what was being imparted upon me. And I've recently moved out of that space. I feel liberated to engage other parts of my sex and sexuality, which has allowed me to blossom and turn into someone else and love myself way more. And these are the conversations that I have with clients who have toxic masculinity issues, or don't understand that what they're saying what they're doing, are issues of patriarchy, misogyny. Perhaps be respectful of everyone around you and yourself, but figure out what the rules are for you, as opposed to simply taking on what someone else offers you.

[33:01] Chris Angel Murphy
Part of the work that you do, too, and you mentioned this on one of your listings about creating a brave space for folks, but you intentionally try to see people who share some of your same identities and cultures. And when you're doing that kind of work, how does it feel to hold space for people in ways that can also be triggering for you, and what support helps you in being able to do that work consistently?

[33:31] Ra Ra Rollins
I'm constantly triggered by my work. I'm constantly finding exact similarities in my clients. It is a catch 22, because that is exactly why I do it. I think I find support in my clients, which I think is a controversial statement for a therapist to say. I think you're taught very directly that you should enter the room as a blank slate, and you should be very choosy about what you disclose, which I am, but I am also an open book to my clients. And I talk to them as if I am part of their community, not an outside viewer of their community. So it's all very insular. They're offering me stories I can relate to and I'm always very cautious about asking them if they would like to hear my experiences, not just freely offered, they have to give consent. And 100% of the time they ask for my experience, and in fact, that's why they've come to me. And I find support in hearing that their experiences mimic my experience. And they're finding support and understanding that my experiences mimic theirs.

[34:39] Chris Angel Murphy
Sounds like a community care model to me.

[34:42] Ra Ra Rollins
Very that, very much. I would say that therapy has helped me not feel crazy, but not in the ways that people think. It's not because I have all this knowledge about, like, how you should do this and tools and breath work and no. It's allowed me access to more people like myself. It's just very helpful to see yourself represented. I guess full circle back to kind of one of the first questions you asked, it's necessary to talk to someone, and not always, but it's necessary to talk to someone who just gets you.

[35:14] Chris Angel Murphy
Absolutely.

[35:15] Ra Ra Rollins
And perhaps irresponsible for some to talk to community members that they don't understand. While I will engage trans and nonbinary clients, there is a level of me that feels a little irresponsible in doing that. Because, one, I have peers who I could refer to, and two, it gets tiring to have to define yourself. So while I am an ally, and will hold space, and hope to create a safe and brave space, I don't have that experience. As a professional therapist, there's going to be a question that comes up that I need definition on and sometimes that feels a little irresponsible to me. And I think I offer that, so that it's clear that I don't think that I'm perfect in this space and that hopefully other clinicians who are holding space for people that I deem it inappropriate to be holding space for, can maybe check themselves a bit. And maybe ask some questions, and maybe refer out a little bit more.

[36:16] Chris Angel Murphy
Yeah, that's crunchy, right? That's crunchy, because I'm thinking about sometimes it's harm reduction. If there are no trans therapists in a particular area and this is what you get, is someone who's cisgender, but you know, maybe super educated on it. And especially if it's not the primary reason you're seeking therapy in the first place, I consider that to be harm reduction.

[36:44] Ra Ra Rollins
Sure.

[36:45] Chris Angel Murphy
And some other folks might say, well, that person doesn't have any business being in there. But again, I, I push back, and say it's harm reduction, because there's a point at which, as a person who's also from a few different minority groups, it doesn't mean I always inherently want to be tokenized or doing this kind of work, or always holding space for other people. I mean, part of why I went into social work was for those reasons, however, I'd also like to think that I could be a photographer or all these other things and not just have to hold space for other folks.

[36:45] Ra Ra Rollins
Absolutely.

[37:18] Chris Angel Murphy
So we are more than being tokenized and the diversity hire, etc. So, like, it's a tension I carry. So like, ideally, would trans people, nonbinary people, like myself be able to go to a doctor who reflects who I am? Maybe - but maybe that also isn't important to me. Yes and it also could be possible that it's not super relevant to the conversation happening, or maybe there's some other specialty you carry, that is more important. And no one's ever gonna be perfect, right? It's very much like dating to me. And so it's, it's been rough for even for myself to find a therapist who can meet me at all the intersections that feel very important to me right now. But I'll pick and choose my battles. And I think like you said, it's, it's another conversation around consent and boundaries. Because if you at least can tell me, "well, here's how much I know about this... I can work with you, just know this about me and my experience with this particular population," then that's like informed consent.

[36:45] Ra Ra Rollins
Sure.

[37:22] Chris Angel Murphy
Right? And I can decide if I need to go to someone else or not. So, it's a lot of pressure to carry.

[37:44] Ra Ra Rollins
It is a lot of pressure. I hear that. I think the conversation expands for me, when we start talking about this industry and the way that it's mitigated. I can't think of the word right now, state to state, for instance. I can, under my supervision work in New York, New Jersey, Connecticut, Massachusetts. Oddly enough, maybe not oddly enough, many of my clients in Massachusetts are Black men. Black, cis, men. Is it an ethical issue for me to stop working with them completely if my licensing switches to another state? Which is a possibility in the future. Is it unethical for me to stop working with them, which is what the ethics board suggests, understanding from their mouth that they cannot find someone who remotely matches their identities? Or is it unethical for me to continue working with them as now perhaps an out-of-state therapist? So while I hear what you're saying with regards to, like, not being able to find the exact identities, I think there's a broader conversation about the way that mental health is gatekept from state to state and what that means. And now we're back to politics, money, and insurance.

[37:44] Chris Angel Murphy
I was trained a certain way. And because I trusted those institutions, I didn't really question it or push back. To think that maybe I know better than someone else about their care, or that I can make big decisions about someone's life, it just feels like a lot of pressure. And in some cases, a lot of these systems we're upholding are harming the very people that we seek to care for and empower and to support. So I have my Master's and Bachelor's in Social Work, but now I'm very aware, yeah, as a mandated reporter, in certain circumstances, I can cause a lot of harm to someone knowingly. And in some other countries, maybe they give you a little bit more agency as a quote unquote, "professional" to make those determinations. But here, there's a lot of consequences for us. How do you deal with that tension? And how do you protect the people who may be harmed by these various systems?

[40:37] Ra Ra Rollins
I'll refer back to the conversation about social media. There were an innumerable amount of mothers, Black mothers, who asked me desperately to work with their children, who were identifying in some way as queer, non-heteronormative. And because of being a mandated reporter, I made the decision in school, again after writing a paper, right? Strongly pushed back about concerning the education that I was receiving, that I would not work with anyone under the age of 18. Because that would put me in a situation where I would have to engage, perhaps, with a single Black mother [and a] government agency that would not have her best interest at heart, not have her child's best interest at heart. And that's not to suggest that CPS does not do great work.

[41:22] Chris Angel Murphy
In case you're not familiar with it, CPS stands for Child Protective Services. Every state may call it something different. But when thinking about foster care, the goal is to keep the child in the home, when possible, or reunify the family as quickly as possible. Many of you may know that I grew up in Los Angeles, and I was in foster care for a year when I was in ninth grade. When you think about a geographical location, like Los Angeles or other large cities like Chicago and New York City, it's large, it's home to so many, and these systems can be quite unsustainable.

[42:01] Chris Angel Murphy
My county social worker was completely overwhelmed with way too many cases and could barely keep up with any updates with my case. As an older child, because I was in ninth grade, I was very, very hard to place. Families usually want babies or much younger kids when they're fostering. Older kids have such a bad reputation and foster families can think the worst of them, and make harmful assumptions.

[42:24] Chris Angel Murphy
If we go to the Movement Advancement Project's website and look at foster care, there are 12 states that permit state-licensed child welfare agencies to refuse to place and provide services to children and families, including LGBTQ+ people and same-sex couples, if doing so conflicts with their religious beliefs. 15 states and four territories have no explicit protections against discrimination in foster care based on sexual orientation or gender identity.

[42:58] Ra Ra Rollins
That's just not the conversation that I'm interested in having. The conversation I'm interested in having is policing Black families and having to call the police, effectively, on Black families. That feels inappropriate for me; that feels like a personal attack that I'm not willing to engage. And that is a hard boundary. So the way that I protect is by not engaging, I refer to someone who has the bandwidth to engage that system. I have tons of peers that are way more [laughs] appropriate, first of all, to work with children, because of their educational background, and because they don't have a potty mouth. [laughs] But that's the way that I protect.

[43:50] Ra Ra Rollins
I immediately think about my mom, who was a single Black mom- mother. I was spanked as a child. I will never have children, so I can't tell you what's appropriate, right? This conversation is not whether or not spanking is appropriate. But it's my experience that it worked for me. It was something that was done to me and I don't have resentment about it. But I would never want to be in a situation to call CPS on, like, my mom, who was not malicious or violent or coming from a bad place. She was trying to protect me. And she was using tools that ultimately came from white people, right? These tools were passed down from slave owners, when slaves would get out of hand, they would beat them, sometimes to the point of death. Black parents saw that this worked and they took it on to the point that my mom did this to me 30 years ago.

[44:44] Ra Ra Rollins
So having that knowledge, I can't engage this. I won't engage this. And not only will I not engage it, I will talk about why I won't engage it so that a Black mother doesn't just think that I don't care about their child. I care quite a bit to the point that, "I'm sorry, I have to step away, but this person should be able to help." That's how I engage.

[45:09] Chris Angel Murphy
Can you share about a time you felt truly supported by someone and what they did to show up for you?

[45:16] Ra Ra Rollins
Oh, gosh, you're gonna make me cry. As soon as you started talking, I knew who exactly I was going to talk about. It's actually- can I offer two people?

[45:22] Chris Angel Murphy
Sure!

[45:23] Ra Ra Rollins
Very quickly, when I started my master's program, I went to NYU Steinhardt, where I was the only Black, cis, male in my 100 person cohort. When I went into NYU, and they offered me- I started asking questions of admissions. "Can you give me percentages of your students?" Because I needed to determine how to go into the rooms. Am I going to go in understanding that there's support? Or am I going to go in understanding that I will be alone? And while there were amazing Black women in my cohort, there was no one who had my experience. There were no cis, Black, men. There were also no cis, Black, gay men. There were also no, to my understanding, trans, Black men, or trans, Black, gay men. And so I went in with these questions. I'm a researcher, and I always have been, I need data to make the best decision for me.

[46:13] Ra Ra Rollins
And initially, I was getting answers that were not working for me and I kept pushing. And then the director, at the time, of the program, Dr. Norissa Williams, wrote to me directly, and she said- [chokes up] I literally-I'm sorry-- she's still my mentor to this day. And I love her. She's my dear friend. She basically said, "who are you? Please come to this school because we need you. You're already asking the right questions. And if you decide to accept this offer, I will guide you personally." And she did. She did to the point where she had to exit the role. And she still stayed on and taught classes after that, specifically, because she would ask me to come to those classes. Because she understood what I wanted and what I needed out of the education. The first class that I had at it - spoiler alert, I decided to come- go to NYU [both laugh].

[47:09] Chris Angel Murphy
Yes.

[47:08] Ra Ra Rollins
The first class that I had, first class, first semester, on a Monday, was with Dr. Moore, who is now the acting director of the program. At the time, Dr. Norissa, was the acting director of the program. And Dr. Moore taught me theories and modalities that I actually use to this day, in my practice. First semester, first class. And then she actively engaged me, because, I guess she saw something. And now she is also, both of them together, are my mentors. And I'm active friends with them. We actively talk daily.

[47:09] Ra Ra Rollins
And I had, I had had support in academic settings before, from Black people; this was different for some reason. There was a level of care and attention, I just hadn't felt before. And because NYU is so expensive, it really meant a lot to me that they wanted me to get every single penny out of this education. They offered their time and their expertise in a way that I've never experienced before. And I just never felt support like that outside of my family, I will praise them till the day that I die. Wonderful women.

[48:20] Chris Angel Murphy
That's incredible and I really appreciate you sharing that. So I know that you were awarded at least one scholarship from the Point Foundation. And for folks not familiar with that organization, they provide scholarships and mentoring, broadly, to the LGBTQ+ community in the States and they are one of the few that offer scholarships to those pursuing graduate school. Sometimes the LGBTQ+ individuals who get the most recognition or opportunities are those who can disclose, which can be heavily tied to privilege, especially financial privilege. And so of any of the scholarships I've ever seen or personally benefited from, you have to have accomplished so many things like a freaking social media movement, or done some sort of big project in your local community and all of these, like, outstanding things, the best of the best, right? And you have to be out to several people who can vouch for you.

[49:21] Ra Ra Rollins
Yeah.

[49:22] Chris Angel Murphy
Teachers, maybe professors, etc. who can write those letters of rec. Your grades have to be pretty dang good, so you just have to be this "model minority." This quandary I'm having is, how do we level the playing field for a kid who's maybe even Black or Brown, let's say they're in a predominantly white, rural area, they have fewer resources, and the concept of disclosing, just there, is maybe completely out of the question? You know, and what if that kid's daily ability just to survive their current circumstances is enough and also deserves access to, let's say, getting a quality education if that's something they want to pursue?

[50:01] Ra Ra Rollins
Yeah.

[50:02] Chris Angel Murphy
How do we also, yeah, care for the kids who are just not in a position where they can do things like that? Like, I don't, yeah, so I still don't know what I'm asking you. But I guess I wanted to just know, what is your reaction to that? What are your thoughts to that?

[50:14] Ra Ra Rollins
Yeah, my reaction and thoughts to that are that I applied for that Point scholarship, and maybe this is going to put them on blast a little bit, and, and I think maybe I'm okay with that. I applied for that three times. Not BIPOC, because I didn't win the flagship, which to my understanding offers a much larger amount of money. So, first of all, I'll be very transparent with you. Like when I won tons of scholarships that have amounted to approximately $10,000, which is no money whatsoever when you're dealing with a graduate-level program. When you start listing these things, people think you're okay and they don't consider the hours that it takes to process the documents that you have to send in, the transcripts that you have to pay for, the recommendation letters that you have to get, all while being a full-time student and writing papers.

[51:06] Chris Angel Murphy
In my case, I felt like I had to give trauma porn.

[51:10] Ra Ra Rollins
Literally.

[51:10] Chris Angel Murphy
To get into programs, to get scholarships. It doesn't feel like a good system.

[51:16] Ra Ra Rollins
It doesn't. I don't know how to fix the system, right? But what I did was I clowned the system, I gave them what they wanted. And then when they did not engage the story that I have, which is quite a traumatic story, I asked them what it took. When I gave them everything: I've been raped, I've been molested, I was a sex worker. I have one eye, I live with one eye, I live in constant pain, I wear a prosthetic. I'm the only Black guy you let into this program, yet and still, you did not fund my education. I literally wrote to them very aggressively and I said "what does it take? What does it take?" And then the money started coming. So I clowned the system, I gave them what they wanted, and then when they did not live up to what they offered, I made it clear that I see their tricks, I see through them.

[52:09] Ra Ra Rollins
So for Point Foundation, for instance, I applied to the flagship one over and over, they just say "no." Then they started this BIPOC one, and then I magically got it, same story. Less money, $1,500; my face splashed all over the place. I would say that it is a huge privilege to get the opportunities to get this money.

[52:31] Ra Ra Rollins
I would also maybe switch seats for a moment and maybe speak as a therapist: if you have a story that you are afraid to talk about, there's something there. If you are physically afraid, that's one thing, and I don't want to push against that, because it's very real, especially being like a Black man in the South. If you are emotionally afraid of being yourself or being seen, which was my story, I didn't want to offer this because I didn't want- I didn't want to tell it, because I didn't want to engage the trauma. That's a different conversation and that conversation was worked out with my therapists and was worked out in the writing that ultimately assisted me financially.

[53:17] Ra Ra Rollins
I think you were talking about, you know, this young Black kid who doesn't have access the way that perhaps I do- recommendation letters, for instance, put my email address in this, right? I will, if someone needs a recommendation letter, I will have a conversation with them to see if I can recommend them. I will be the mentor that I did not have. I will be the access. This is my job, right? I will not be a therapist for the rest of my life; not sustainable.

[53:45] Ra Ra Rollins
But I can be, perhaps, a figure that is available to others who need access, because now I do have it. So seriously, put my email address. I'm not sure how many people I can get to, but I will assist who I can assist. If you need a recommendation letter, be willing to talk to me. If I don't know you, I need to know you. And I will recommend you if you need a recommendation for college or for the Point Foundation Scholarship, because that's paying it forward. Especially to kids who have been thrown out or homeless, whatever the case is, they don't have access to an adult or a caregiver who will offer this to them. That's what I can offer. Because that's what was offered to me- that was the privilege that I had. I had access to people who I had worked with and engaged, that would operate these things to assist me along.

[54:40] Chris Angel Murphy
Before I have any other comments to that, I just want to say thank you for your vulnerability and everything that you just shared. An awkward pivot [both laugh] back, to just to finish that thought, I guess, is all of that, all of that scholarship or admissions even into college etc., it just feels very gross. Because of things we've named, but then also, we know that family can be a sore spot for our communities, focusing more specifically on the LGBTQ+ community.

[55:08] Chris Angel Murphy
And so when you're thinking about, like the award ceremony you get invited to, and then you have to like grovel and thank them like so much for, like you said, sometimes maybe $500, which doesn't go very far, but like, I'll still take it. You're allowed usually to invite people there and I always think back to who wasn't there. Every time that I had, let's say, like a plus one, or my dad and my grandma, you know? Like, they weren't there. And like constantly looking out, and then maybe seeing other people with their families. That created a lot of tension. Yes, chosen family, and you know, but there were also ceremonies I just went to by myself, and that felt horrible. So just that whole cycle, I guess, is what I'm posing. Something needs to change, because I'm constantly thinking about and you mentioned, intersectionality, we've talked about diverse hiring, etc, who's not in the room, and I'm thinking about those: maybe just surviving every day is a miracle and their power and their strength and waiting until they can change their situation in some way.

[56:12] Ra Ra Rollins
I'm not in the room. So for instance, I won an award at a very small honorarium at the end of my academic career at NYU and I decided not to go to graduation and accept the award. It was conscious and intentional decision, because of the level of work that I had to put in to get there. You are then not going to take pictures of me and splash them on your website, and put them in your brochures, and make money that you did not provide to me to call yourself "diverse and inclusive." So, I am not in the room. While I will happily accept your money, you do not get marketing from me, because that will cost you extra. So again, this goes back to rules. There are no rules. "Thank you for the money. Goodbye. I have class to go to now." I'm not in the room.

[57:02] Chris Angel Murphy
What a powerful no.

[57:04] Ra Ra Rollins
No, the answer's no. And the answer is no because of these reasons. And if you can counter that, and perhaps offer more money, then we can discuss.

[57:13] Chris Angel Murphy
What's one allyship tip you'd like for everyone listening to consider?

[57:18] Ra Ra Rollins
If you engage a minority person, insert minority, listen, and thank them. And that's it. Please do not push back. Please do not ask condescending questions that you pose as trying to be curious. If you ask someone a question of their experience, listen, and thank them. If you ask a academic minority person, a professional question, listen and thank them. That's the tip. Listen and thank them. That's it.

[57:50] Chris Angel Murphy
Ra Ra, thank you again for your vulnerability. It was such a treat to spend time with you. And I'm really looking forward to connecting again. And friends, since Ra Ra is only on LinkedIn these days, I do encourage you to follow him on there, if you have an account, to see what he's up to. I'll have the link to his profile on the episode page. I hope he's inspired you to think about who you are, and if what you're doing is currently serving you. There are definitely rules I uphold that are harmful not only to myself but others as well. So I'll be spending time reflecting on how I can break those cycles and liberate myself and those around me.

[58:37] Chris Angel Murphy
Thanks for listening and here are the last three self-reflection questions.

4. At what age did I first hear an LGBTQ+ slur? Who said it? Which slur was it?

5. Do I have access to a therapist who represents me?

6. What are rules I follow that don't serve me?

Visit AllyshipIsAVerb.com for any resources and a full transcript of the episode. And remember, sometimes allyship means to listen to minorities and thank them.