[00:00:00] Charlie Ocean: Well, hello there. I'm Charlie Ocean, and my pronouns are they/them. Welcome to Allyship is a Verb, a podcast for people practicing allyship for the LGBTQ+ community and beyond.

[00:00:25] Tonya: Hey, my name is Tonya and my pronouns are she/they.

[00:00:28] Charlie Ocean: Before we dive into today's episode, I'd like to start out with a shout out to Niki! (voice echos) I love you, lovebug. Thank you for helping out on the Indiegogo campaign. Secondly, this is the last episode for 2023. We'll be back with the second part of Season 3, starting January 2nd, 2024. Kinda wild to think about, but here we are.

Tonya is today's guest, and one of my best friends, and one of my favorite people in the world. She helped me to get my LLC up here in Colorado, and we became fast friends at some point. I've also stolen some of their friends, (laughs) which has worked out great for me. So, we have some mutual friends I also adore.

We're intentionally only mentioning the first name to help protect the privacy of my friend and her partner. I love introducing folks to my favorite people, so thank you for this honor.

Here are some self-reflection questions to think about during the episode. Please stay after for three more to take with you.

1. When was the last time I felt seen by someone I love?

2. How would I fill in this sentence? I can be _______ and _______.

3. Is there anyone I would go mama bear for? Who?

And now, our conversation.

You are queer and nonbinary. What does that intersection mean to you?

[00:02:19] Tonya: I love "queer" because there's room for me to discover new things about myself. It's a blanket term, and I currently identify as bisexual also, but it feels like maybe that will change someday. And it just feels better, even sometimes, to just use the term "queer" and not even include "nonbinary," because, you know, I just started exploring my gender in the last probably three to five years, and who knows how things will change with that too.

Nonbinary, for me, is - it's an internal alignment. Actually, meeting Charlie was when I had just kind of started thinking about gender and then, helping them with all of, you know, the legal work, setting up their business. I started learning more and more about it. And one day I was just like, "I'm nonbinary," and it just brought this sense of like internal peace and alignment.

Yeah, it was just everything that I had struggled with my whole life finally made sense around fitting in and feeling out of place and not feeling like I belonged.

[00:03:32] Charlie Ocean: I'm like already tearing up. (both laugh) So even for myself, when a friend shares with me, maybe any updates, as they're discovering who they are, I always try to like thank them and like celebrate them as much as possible. And make sure I'm like getting any name updates correct, or pronoun updates, and like clarification on like how to use them and where and all of that. And because I explained to other people that, you know, when someone shares this information with you, this is like the best way to receive it.

Not like, "Are you sure?" Or like, (both laugh) "How do you know?" And "What does this mean for your relationship?" if you're in one, or any, any of that, right? It's just like: "Thank you for sharing this with me," celebration, and then maybe like support, right?

Like how, you can support that person, not how they can support you. (both laugh) What the hell is nonbinary?

[00:04:30] Tonya: Maya Angelou said some version of you can't do better until you know better, and when you know better, then do better. I think that's a huge part of allyship. (laughs) Being able to acknowledge like, "Oh, that was not me being the best ally." That's the only way we can learn.

Also, I think sometimes people's reactions have not been what I've expected. Like, there's people that you might - that I, you know, thinking about coming out, either I know they're also part of the queer community or have this idea about how they'll react to the information. And actually the, the person who I felt most affirmed by when I was left telling people - I didn't "come out" as nonbinary; it's sort of just something that has, as it has come up with people who I care about, we talk about it, I share it. I did the whole coming out thing when I was, you know, about being bisexual and, you know, it was exhausting. (laughs)

[00:05:29] Charlie Ocean: Yeah.

[00:05:29] Tonya: And I didn't want to do it again. (laughsz) But I was talking with my next closest in age sister, she's just a little bit younger than me, about it and when I told her she goes, "Yeah, you've always been nonbinary." And of course I've always been nonbinary, but the fact that she immediately was just like, "Oh yeah, I see this part of you through our entire lives together."

It was so simple, but it was like, so affirming and not what I was expecting from her. Not that I was expecting anything bad, but just, it was like the perfect thing that she could have said to me. And it's okay that people don't always say the perfect thing, but it just like in that moment, it felt so nice to be seen in that way by somebody that I love so much.

[00:06:19] Charlie Ocean: Was there a part of you that was like, "Well, what the fuck. Why didn't you like tell me?" (Tonya laughs) Cause this is something that comes up a lot and I, I don't know the best way of navigating it. I err on the side of like, allow people to explore on their own kind of thing. But there are some people who genuinely are upset that like, maybe someone else had like reason to believe they were a particular identity, but then never brought it up with them or ask them about it.

And then it's like, you know, I was struggling this whole time and you could have saved me all this grief. And it's like, I don't know. It's just so hit or miss. I feel like it's one of those things, like it's 50/50 really.

Would that have helped you at any point?

[00:07:01] Tonya: I think she is learning the language and the concepts alongside me in a lot of ways, we're really close in age. So I think when we were younger, just the same way, I didn't have the language- I thinkk she did affirm me in her own way. We're very close and we worked together while she was in college and she would acknowledge things about me a lot that were true that it didn't feel like other people could see.

And I have four siblings, and I'm fairly close with all of them, so I actually feel like all of them have always felt like very, like, affirming people to me to be around. Even though we're different, my youngest sister, she came out to me before I had come out to anyone and I was like, "Wow, here's this like teenager being so brave" and I, (laughs) and I still haven't, you know, even really been that honest with myself about it.

She really helped me have like the courage to start telling people and start exploring being bi. And so I feel really fortunate, and I think it's because, you know, she, it still had its challenges, right, her being open about her identity, but in her generation, there's not as much of a, like, "coming out" thing. You just, like, date who you want to date. Just like if you're heterosexual, you know, like, you don't have to tell people, you just date who you want to date. And she seemed to have a much more, like, that kind of attitude about it, which I think is beautiful to see with, you know, her and my brother being much younger.

[00:08:44] Charlie Ocean: When you gave me the identities of queer and nonbinary, what are differences in when you might tell someone that you're queer versus bisexual? What sort of determines that? And is there a difference for you in those?

[00:08:58] Tonya: I think they've become kind of interchangeable. I guess if I'm talking specifically about, like, having, coming out, I came out as bisexual and so that feels more relevant to like that sort of part of my life, but I'd say most of the time now when I talk about myself and my identities, I generally just say I'm queer or I'm a queer person. It feels easier and it feels like it invites people to ask more questions if they want to, and if they don't, that's fine too.

[00:09:33] Charlie Ocean: At the time of recording this, yesterday was Bi Visibility Day, and it was also the end of Bisexual Awareness Week. Do you feel visible or like people are aware of you and your identities? Especially that one.

[00:09:50] Tonya: Um, no - I don't. (both laugh) I'm in a - a cis, straight, presenting relationship. I think there are some things about my appearance that may indicate that I am queer or bisexual to people in the know, like, (laughs) but -

[00:10:11] Charlie Ocean: Like the nose ring?

[00:10:12] Tonya: Like the nose ring, like I have a septum piercing. Like cuffing your pants, you know, like all of that stereotypical stuff (laughs) that goes around in queer groups. I don't know how much the straight community or straight people are aware of that stuff, unless there's someone in their life that's making them aware of it that's a queer person.

So, most of the time I don't feel visible, and It's tricky because it also provides a level of safety, not being visible. And sometimes it makes me feel a little guilty to have that safety when others who have the same identities as me don't. It makes me feel like it's really important for me to make myself visible, when I have the chance. So, like, when I use social media, I always include my pronouns you know, on Instagram, I have a rainbow flag in my bio. At work, I always have my pronouns on Zoom. We use Teams, too, which doesn't let you put pronouns up, which I find really annoying.

[00:11:17] Charlie Ocean: (infomercial piano music in background) Are you tired of living in the technological dark ages, where pronouns are just as mysterious as the Bermuda Triangle? They really made us fear that, and quicksand, for no good reason. Well, buckle up, because we've got a message for you. (techno-optimist music begins)

Introducing TeamTalk Pro, the best workplace communication software that doesn't exist. We know you love your video conferencing, instant messaging, and all those emojis that make your HR department cringe, but what about pronouns? Microsoft Teams may have left you hanging on this one, but fear not, TeamTalk Pro is here to unravel the mysteries of pronoun fields.

Join us as we bring you into 2024 with the latest in pronoun technology with advanced open fields to type in your own pronouns, including multiple sets. Wow! Ask your workplace to subscribe to Team Talk Pro today. (end of commercial parody)

Okay, so here's the deal. I'm very proud of that fake commercial. I'm not taking it down. I'm leaving it for your enjoyment. (laughs)

However, I have scoured the corners of the internet and I've been able to finally see that Microsoft Teams finally does allow pronouns in your profile. However, it's only in your profile, as far as I know, and it's not always in a helpful place like if you're in a meeting so that you could quickly see it like you can in places like Zoom.

So, that said, we still have a way to go so that it's more helpful, however, we'll applaud them. Way to go, Microsoft Teams, so glad that you finally rolled that out. Thank you. If you're curious how to get it set up, I have included a link to a YouTube video. And again, it does have to be toggled on by an administrator.

[00:13:01] Tonya: So whenever I can make myself visible, I do, if I feel like it's a, an environment where I feel comfortable doing it.

[00:13:10] Charlie Ocean: Yeah, Teams is tricky. Number one, I just hate that software with a passion.

[00:13:15] Tonya: It's so glitchy.

[00:13:16] Charlie Ocean: Yeah, and usually I'd shove my pronouns in as like a status or something.

[00:13:20] Tonya: Oh, I haven't tried that. Okay, I'll have to look into that.

[00:13:25] Charlie Ocean: It bothers me, because like years ago, back in like, I don't know, 2019, maybe 2020, one of the last nonprofits I worked at, we were trying to petition for it through, like, Microsoft Teams. And there's like a support page and stuff, and I don't know, we tried to upvote it, or whatever that looked like at the time, the details are kind of fuzzy, I just remember it was like on their radar, and I think they were trying to figure out a way to like, execute it. But it's like all these other (laughs) software companies have figured out a way to ship it. So like, it really can't be that difficult. You're just like overthinking this.

[00:13:58] Tonya: Yeah.

I feel like on Zoom too, even before there was like an actual, like you could pick your pronouns, you could add it easily -

[00:14:06] Charlie Ocean: Yeah.

[00:14:06] Tonya: As part of your name. Yeah.

[00:14:09] Charlie Ocean: And like now, I think people are slowly finding out about this, but Apple, for your contact card, has made it so you can add your pronouns.

[00:14:18] Tonya: Oh!

[00:14:19] Charlie Ocean: And, yeah, it's a very recent update. There was a person I follow on Instagram who was showing others, and then someone had a follow up question, because they did like a screen video to show how to add it, and what it looks like in the contact card. And then someone asked, "Oh, well, can you put like your name too, for folks who don't use any third person pronouns?" The person tried it and it worked.

It's just that when you use, I want to say, maybe more well-known pronouns, it will auto populate the plural version and all that, but if you're adding something like your name or neo pronouns - which just means that they're newer pronouns, like you've either created them or they just haven't been recognized yet, by like a dictionary or something - but if you're adding them, you would just have to add the variations so that people understand what the plural is and stuff.

So for example, if I was just using my name, I'd say like "Charlie", and then it'd say "Charlie's" and have to add like the "-'s" and stuff. So you had to enter any pronouns if you had multiples like separately, but then you can also slide them in terms of like, I want to say like preference without it, like explicitly stating that, but you could put which is like first, third, etc. and I just, I thought that was really neat.

But what I also love about Zoom's is that they have further settings to say if you want it to just like default to every meeting or if you want to be asked every time and there's options to like remove them for any reason when you're in a session so - I mean, that's the future.

[00:15:48] Tonya: Yeah, I really like that about Zoom's that, I can remove them if I feel unsure about sharing them with a group I'm about to enter.

My work, we work kind of all over the world and we have some, a lot of clients in the agriculture space. I don't want to assume anything about people, and we have a lot of clients in South Africa where this is even less of a talked about or accepted thing than in the U. S. It feels good to me that I can not turn them on until I've kind of like gotten to meet the people in the group, and luckily I've yet to have a client that I work with that I don't feel comfortable sharing my pronouns, so I I'm fortunate that I'm in an environment where people are open. But it is nice to be able to choose.

[00:16:35] Charlie Ocean: Yeah, that safety element, and we're not always able to determine when we're safe or what, so yeah, anytime we're able to have those options available to us, I think that's really great.

Well, is there something you tell yourself as a queer affirmation?

[00:16:55] Tonya: Yeah, I regularly - and this might sound silly - but like, sometimes I get frustrated about not being visible and I remind myself that I am queer, whether other people know it or not, or see it or not. Just kind of reminding myself that I am not what other people see, and I don't have to get frustrated. My identity exists for me, whether other people see it or not.

[00:17:22] Charlie Ocean: Please complete the following sentence. (both laugh)

[00:17:25] Tonya: Oh boy, okay. (Charlie laughs)

[00:17:27] Charlie Ocean: you can be nonbinary and "blank."

[00:17:32] Tonya: Love makeup.

[00:17:34] Charlie Ocean: Oh! What made you, say that?

[00:17:37] Tonya: Because I think makeup is really fun. I don't wear it all the time; I'm not like an everyday makeup person. But I went through this phase for a couple months where I was like, "Oh, I can't, like, I can't wear makeup anymore." I don't know why this was what I was thinking. Uh, just like this new rule I decided for myself. And I really like makeup and I think that it's actually very queer. (laughs)

[00:18:02] Charlie Ocean: You and I have talked about this a bit when in private, as friends were talking about like gender and stuff, and I had suggested to you at some point that it's almost like, regardless of how you express your gender, it's more of like, drag for you.

[00:18:20] Tonya: Yeah.

[00:18:21] Charlie Ocean: And you said that felt like actually pretty affirming.

[00:18:25] Tonya: Yeah, it does, because I think like, for me, like, if I'm gonna get dressed up and put makeup on, it feels like an event, like a show. You know, it's not my everyday. I probably wear pretty androgynous clothes most of the time, but I like love it. It's like an exciting thing for me.

And we were talking about it in the context of my wedding. I'm getting married next year and we were talking about like what I would wear or wouldn't wear and I have decided to wear a dress. I don't wear dresses often but to me it feels like the ultimate drag opportunity to (laughs) create this whole like vibe and scene and it's - for me it also, I've always loved fashion and it's like this deep artistic expression for me.

It's like, I put together an outfit to say something about me, about something I love, about, you know, whatever. Aligning that with being nonbinary, I guess, has been a little bit of a journey, but also it's always been part of me. So to me it feels like impossible that I would not do those things because I've been nonbinary my whole life.

There are times when I feel like the way I'm dressing or something is for other people and it's not for me and that doesn't feel good, and I always feel uncomfortable.

[00:19:43] Charlie Ocean: For your birthday earlier this year, it was 70s themed, and, I mean, you're rocking it, your hair and everything.

[00:19:51] Tonya: I love, like, themed parties, (Charlie laughs) and so I decided to have this themed party for my birthday. I was wearing flair jeans with a button fly and this pink, like, mock neck tank top that had, like, this chain kind of pattern on it, so it was, like, pink and gold. I have since gifted that shirt to our mutual friend. (laughs)

[00:20:12] Charlie Ocean: I know exactly who, yeah. Uhhuh. (laughs)

[00:20:16] Tonya: Yeah. And I did my makeup, you know, like the really thick eyeliner and I think I had silver sparkles like everywhere and pink like eyeshadow. And I had done my hair very, like I have a shag most of the time. So I had just like over-styled my shag instead of wearing it in a bun, which is what I normally do. And I had on these ridiculous platforms. I love wearing heels; I love being like the tallest. I'm already tall, and so I love being like the tallest person in the room.

I mean, I wanted it to match the theme. I wanted it to be fun. I wanted it to like, look kind of like art. Like I had spent time and I don't want to do that every day because it takes a lot of time, (laughs) but I was really excited and to see what other people were going to wear.

[00:21:05] Charlie Ocean: Weddings, traditionally, gendered as fuck, right, like you were talking about the dress, so -

[00:21:12] Tonya: Yeah.

[00:21:13] Charlie Ocean: Doing our best to respect and maintain the privacy of your partner, how are you making these decisions together, and what feels important for you to queerify, I guess, as it pertains to this whole institution.

[00:21:29] Tonya: Yeah, my partner and I have been together for a collective eight years and never really thought we would get married and have just recently decided that we wanted to do it; so I think everything about it is pretty non-traditional. (laughs) We decided one night, we were just like together and, you know, we've talked about it periodically over the years, we were just kind of like, "Should we do it? Yeah, let's do it."

We love hosting people. We love having all of our friends together in one place. Let's get everybody together and celebrate our partnership because it's been going for a while. And it's probably going to continue to go for as long as (laughs) we're around, so let's have a big party.

I'm always up for any excuse to celebrate. I think I learned this from my good friend, Courtney. When I was in law school, I wasn't really that into like birthdays and stuff. And she was like, "Why would you never ever not take the opportunity to celebrate something? Like life is so dull most of the time." (laughs) And so I really learned to adopt that mindset. And now I'm just like, let's celebrate everything (laughs) that is possible to celebrate.

So this just felt like an opportunity to do that. And there's like, you know, the boring, like legal advantages to being married. It just makes a lot of things easier because our society encourages nuclear families and marriage. So that's like the less sexy reason why we're getting married. (both laugh)

My partner has been really involved which I think is already non-traditional. I observed a lot of my friends kind of plan completely by themselves. He has a lot of ideas and opinions and things that he's thought about that he wants it to be, and that feels really good to me, to have us both be doing it. It feels really supportive and like it actually is something that we both want to do that matters to both of us.

Our wedding planner, she specializes in queer and BIPOC weddings. You know, I shared early on, it was important to me to have a wedding planner to manage the day so that none of my siblings or friends had to do it and I didn't have to do it. And so we made a point of finding one that was queer-affirming and that's been great.

My partner is really supportive. When it came to like what I would wear or not wear, you know, he was like, "I don't care what you do, do whatever you want to do." For a long time, I was like, "I'm going to wear a sequined jumpsuit." That was like the thing. And then I couldn't really find any that I liked and my friends talked me into going to Anthropology and trying on dresses just to do it, "Let's just have the experience." And it was just me and two of them. And so it was like very low key, not like overwhelming, overstimulating or anything like that.

And I tried on like four dresses and one of them, I was like, "Wow, this, this looks really good on me." And it's kind of retro, which is something that I love. And so I decided to get it. It was on sale and I was like, "Okay, I'm doing this." That was how I made my decision about what to wear. (laughs)

Yeah, and there's no pressure to do the traditionals - like, we're not doing the first dance. We're not doing, like, the dance with your parents; it just feels awkward to me. (laughs) And to me, the day is not about us; it's about our favorite people coming together. Not like - I don't want everybody just like focusing on us all night.

[00:24:51] Charlie Ocean: Another nonbinary person who doesn't always like to be perceived.

[00:24:55] Tonya: Yeah, (both laugh) it's true. It's true.

[00:24:58] Charlie Ocean: Or at least not for long.

[00:24:59] Tonya: And my partner hates being perceived even more than I do. So (both laugh) that will be limited.

I did have some nervousness about how visible to be in my queerness at the wedding, just because, you know, when you get extended family around, everyone's not in the know, and there's questions about supportiveness. And I was talking to my therapist about it, actually. She kind of suggested, like, I can't control all of those people; I can only control the day that I want to have. And it really made me feel empowered to just show up as queer as I want to and not worry about it.

It's our day, you know, mine and my partner's and he is comfortable in our relationship and is not afraid of my identities. And so that's really all that should matter. And the closest people to us aren't either.

[00:26:00] Charlie Ocean: I'm willing to be like a bodyguard if I need to be. (Tonya laughs) I'm willing to tell some people off. I mean, I get really shy and awkward, but I get mama bear for my friends. So if you want to see that mode activated, just let me know.

[00:26:12] Tonya: Yeah, my -

[00:26:13] Charlie Ocean: We'll have like a secret code word (Tonya laughs) and I'll just, I will go full mama bear.

[00:26:18] Tonya: I love that. My friend Alexis -

[00:26:20] Charlie Ocean: You know I'm serious though. (both laughz)

[00:26:21] Tonya: Has also offered those services, so -

[00:26:25] Charlie Ocean: Nice.

[00:26:26] Tonya: Yeah. And that also, that just makes me feel so loved. That I have multiple friends that are like, "I will protect this day for you."

[00:26:35] Charlie Ocean: And I don't need to cause a scene or anything, it's more like -

[00:26:38] Tonya: No.

[00:26:38] Charlie Ocean: Going back to earlier in the conversation, you know, we talked about your queer affirmation for yourself, and having like that anchor - like it would be a similar thing, like, "This day isn't about you, so remember you're at a wedding. And just show up for that right now."

[00:26:54] Tonya: Yeah.

[00:26:55] Charlie Ocean: "Anything else you have going on in your mind, leave it for another time. Today is not about you."

[00:27:00] Tonya: Yeah.

[00:27:01] Charlie Ocean: I'm going to find an anchor and I'm going to be ready, (Tonya laughs) but it's just something like that, like, and I will just keep repeating myself like a broken record because sometimes with people, you have to do that.

[00:27:10] Tonya: Yeah. The other thing my therapist said, she was like, "People get really anxious about how people are going to behave at weddings." You know, is somebody going to drink too much? Is somebody going to say something really inappropriate? You know, all of those things. And she's like, "Everybody has families. Everybody's worried about the same things." And she's like, "The thing that happens will be something you didn't even imagine would happen." (laughs)

[00:27:32] Charlie Ocean: Probably.

[00:27:36] Tonya: Yeah. Yeah. There's definitely been feelings that have come up. Around the traditional, like, the gender roles, the - yeah, I mean, their weddings are super heteronormative. What can we do to make it less that?

[00:27:51] Charlie Ocean: I don't know. I was thinking, you know, we could like be subliminal in our messaging and, you know, I don't know what all you're doing for the food, but we can be like bread rolls, not gender roles. And like, just like really fuck with people, just in very subtle ways.

[00:28:07] Tonya: I love that. We can brainstorm about that. I think there's a lot of ways - oh, plus the city that we're having it in in Michigan is like one of the queerest cities in the state. So like we were just there this last weekend looking at the venue and stuff and there's pride flags everywhere ,on every building, on almost every house. It just felt really good. I mean, some of them, you can tell they've been up so long, they were like shredded at the ends.

[00:28:33] Charlie Ocean: I love it. So, I'm curious about your experience with pronouns. Where are you at with them now, and where do you want to be with them?

[00:28:45] Tonya: I currently use "she" and "they." I think a common experience for people who use two sets of pronouns is that one gets used more than the other. And if "they," is one of your sets, they do not get used often unless it's by other people in the queer community. Or, you know, I have some really close friends that have been wonderful about talking to me about it and learning more and getting better at it.

But even for them, there's been, you know, times when it's just, I guess it's just confusing. It's confusing for people. And even after you explain it, they still just use what they're comfortable with. I have recently kind of had this realization that, you know, I've been paying more attention to how I feel when people use different pronouns. None of them feel bad to me, but when someone only uses "she," it says something to me about their discomfort.

Maybe not even their discomfort with my identity, but their discomfort with doing it wrong. I think that's mostly what I feel in a lot of the spaces I'm in. Not that they are intentionally not using they/them, but that they're not sure - they still feel unsure about how to use it.

[00:30:03] Charlie Ocean: Yeah. And I've noticed it's usually coupled with not wanting to offend. So they don't know how to bring it up in a way that, I mean, I, I assume that they're trying to make it feel good for like both parties in that conversation.

[00:30:17] Tonya: Yeah, and so I also, too, in all this, I'm like, "Oh, actually, 'he' feels fine, too." And honestly, like, if somebody were to use a neo pronoun, like, I - nobody ever would just use a neo pronoun - (laughs) but if they did, I think that would feel fine, too.

I think I just kind of, to me, they all feel sort of neutral, and none of them feel bad. The things for me that are really affirming are different, and I notice when people only use she. And I don't like it, even though it feels fine - (sighs) like, I don't know how to - how do you explain this? For some people, it's okay. For other people, it doesn't feel good. And I think it depends on the depth of my relationship with the person.

[00:31:04] Charlie Ocean: That's what I've noticed too. I mean, before I pulled you aside, because I don't always get time with you alone. Usually we're like hanging out with your partner and stuff, and I love it. And I love your friends and all of that, and I've always appreciated you inviting me to different things.

So, like, I know not to ask you some of these questions in front of everyone else, but I had just sort of taken it upon myself - and this is something I've done with several of my friends - is when I notice people are not using someone's pronouns the way they're meant to, I tend to lean hard on using, like, the "they" set, for example. As a reminder and also to rebel (laughs) because, like I want to make sure that my friends like especially you in that particular moment like you feel seen for all of you and not just part of you.

It's just been interesting, because - and I'm sharing this I guess mostly for folks listening, in case this is a situation you're in as well - but like, I did talk with you about it eventually, when it was like an appropriate time in private, which is usually when most of these conversations should happen, and ask you what you want me to do, and if you wanted me to like chat with anyone, like any of our mutual friends, about it to like help take that burden off of you, because I know what that's like and sometimes it's easier when you don't have to do the emotional labor yourself.

So if like, I guess I want folks listening, if that feels like something you could do to show up for your friend, be it pronouns, a name, you know, like that is a way you could offer support. Yeah, it's tricky.

[00:32:38] Tonya: Yeah, I mean, it is because, you know, I am saying that she/her is okay, and the people pleaser in me is like, "Well, I said that she/her was okay, so I can't say anything now because it'll be like, oh, well -" and so like, some rebellious part of me has been like, I'm just going to start using he/they. (Charlie laughs)

But then I do genuinely think people would just use "he."

[00:33:02] Charlie Ocean: Yeah.

[00:33:03] Tonya: I think more people would use he. I still think there is this discomfort with they/them. I still occasionally hear that stupid, "Oh, it's plural, you can't use it for singular." (laughs )

[00:33:14] Charlie Ocean: I swear to God.

[00:33:15] Tonya: That makes me want to throw the person out the window every time. (laughs) But it's not. Shakespeare used they/them as a singular. We use they/them all the time.

[00:33:26] Charlie Ocean: Yeah, and even before then, and there's been other authors, and even if that weren't the case.

[00:33:30] Tonya: It doesn't matter.

[00:33:32] Charlie Ocean: Like, people over grammar.

[00:33:34] Tonya: Yeah, yeah. Things change all the time.

[00:33:37] Charlie Ocean: I, yeah, I tell people, like, yeah, people over grammar. Who gives a shit? If someone's asking this, like, small thing of you, and they're letting you know that it feels really good to them when people make that effort, why would you deny them that? And I don't know which asshole, or which group of assholes, decided to take over English departments everywhere and be like, (immitating pretentious mumble) "Plural, not singular, whatever."

But, like, There have been plenty of, like, English teachers and professors over the years that, like, also used it in the singular, and do now, and honor it now. And so that's why I don't know which asshole it was, or which group of assholes we can point to in history that, like, keep bringing this up. But again, who gives a shit?

[00:34:20] Tonya: Yeah, and I mean, if somebody leaves, like, their sunglasses behind, you don't say "she" or "he," you say "they." "They left their -" you know, like if we're just in the regular usage, so it's not a good argument anyways, but -

[00:34:38] Charlie Ocean: I do hate documents that do say he/she though.

[00:34:42] Tonya: Oh yeah. Rampant in the legal community. (laughs) And actually we had at the first firm I worked for - this is actually a credit to that workplace environment - we had a big conversation about replacing all of the "she/her", "she/he", in our contract templates with "they." And there was some discussion about, well, what if a real, like, asshole judge gets a hold of this, and it's like, "Oh, this is plural and not singular." And, you know, because in, in law, judges have a lot of authority to interpret things.

But we still ended up doing it we were just like "Somebody has to start.' And that was six years ago probably. There are people that are trying to change the norms. And there's a lot of people that are still deeply uncomfortable with it. (laughs)

[00:35:35] Charlie Ocean: Yeah.

[00:35:36] Tonya: But for strangers, it's one of the only ways I can know whether they're safe or not. So it becomes very different. And I think too, like keeping she/her for me is definitely a concession. It's a, you know, I don't want to have to teach people all the time about they/them.

[00:36:04] Charlie Ocean: So in a perfect world, what would, like, honor you best? Like, genuinely, what would honor you best? Outside of any concessions, like, fuck all that noise, like, just you. Like, what would actually honor you?

[00:36:16] Tonya: In a perfect world where everybody is at the same level of understanding, I'd use "she," "they," and "he" (laughs) I think because that truly, I think, expresses my experience. But then when you add in the nuance of knowing that when people are only using she and her, It's because of discomfort and that, to me, keeping she and her feels like it makes my life easier.

That creates like a different vibe around the she/her pronoun set (laughs) than just how it makes me feel. I don't know if that makes sense.

[00:36:50] Charlie Ocean: Yeah, and like, something I don't think I've shared with you is like, first off, I talk about you a lot, because I'm like, "My best friend, Tonya -" like all the fucking time. (Tonya laughs) I'm sure. Yeah -

[00:37:00] Tonya: Aw, I love it. I talk about you all the time too, so - (Charlie laughs)

[00:37:04] Charlie Ocean: I mean, for - yeah, the people I like, super duper love, like, I always talk about them, and so I just can't help myself. And so when I'm hanging with our mutual friends, I lean a lot harder into "they," but I have been slipping out more "she's" and stuff to show, like, I am capable of doing this, I'm just leaning on "they" because other people are fucking this up, (both laugh) and again, it's that reminder, I'm like Clippy from Microsoft, you know, like, "You know, by the way, did you know that you can do this thing?"

But when I'm talking about you to other people that like, haven't met you or just like different friends, I mix up "she" and "they" so much more like far and away; it's way more balanced. Again, it's just like, I am like, I don't know, cosmically or something, (laughs) like universe wise, that's trying to help tip the scale, the tiniest bit.

[00:37:55] Tonya: You're balancing, yeah, like you're balancing whatever environment you're in. And I think that's something, I know I do that for people who I know use two or more sets of pronouns. Like, I listen for what other people are using more of, and I, if it's like heavy on one, I'll lean on the other. Because how I want to feel is that people are using both, like that's the true, you know.

But there's environments where people are only using one and so if you are there and you're using the they/them set, that feels really good to me because I'm hearing they/them and I know that you are taking some of that work away and trying to teach the people that we're around.

[00:38:42] Charlie Ocean: Putting you on the spot a bit. And you can change your answer, but again, this is an example of how easy it is to just check in with your friends or your loved ones, whomever: what do you want me to do at your wedding? Have you thought much about that?

[00:38:57] Tonya: I would like you to do what you've always done and - the using both. If other people around are using both, leaning heavy on "they," if people are only using "she," like I - yeah, I think I would have answered that differently a few months ago, but I, I want that day to feel good to me, and that will make me feel good. (laughs)

[00:39:19] Charlie Ocean: What would you want me to say to anyone who's part of that like, potentially like extended family that just doesn't get this stuff? I mean, first off, I, - especially if I'm mixing them up - I feel like people tend to not notice.

[00:39:33] Tonya: Mm-hmm.

[00:39:34] Charlie Ocean: Like they don't always hear it; like sometimes they do. It depends, it truly depends. But what would you like me to say? Like, I mean, I'm not -

[00:39:42] Tonya: If they ask?

[00:39:43] Charlie Ocean: Yeah, like, "Why are you saying they?" Like, "she's a she" or something. Like, what would you want me to say? I would like, "Yeah, she's a she and a they."

[00:39:52] Tonya: Yeah, I mean, something like that or, you know, "You can ask them." Like- (laughs)

[00:39:58] Charlie Ocean: I think I'm going to need to like, get a projector and like, I think I'm going to get ready to like, do Pronouns 101 for (Tonya laughs) people, or maybe I'll make brochures. (both laugh)

[00:40:09] Tonya: To hand out?

[00:40:11] Charlie Ocean: Yeah, I'll be like, "Are you feeling confused by she/they pronouns? Are you not sure what the hell this is in relation to Tonya and what -" yeah, I will, yeah, that's what I'll do. Fucking Canva makes this kind of stuff easy, so I'll just make a fucking brochure and I'll be like, here's some literature for you to peruse. (both laugh) Like, if you have any questions, email me and I'll give you, like, my hourly consulting rate.

[00:40:37] Tonya: Oh man, that would be incredible. I love it.

[00:40:41] Charlie Ocean: Yeah, but I'll get your permission. I'll like have you like check it out, give it a once-over before I get these printed just to make sure.

[00:40:47] Tonya: Yeah, yeah. I'm also like, now I'm wondering if my answer is just like a cop out because of my people pleasing. Like (laughs) if I'm unwilling to admit to myself what feels best? I can't tell.

[00:41:03] Charlie Ocean: Well, that's okay. If that's where you're at right now, that's where you're at.

[00:41:07] Tonya: Yeah.

[00:41:08] Charlie Ocean: So, we'll just keep that thread going. And that's, again, for folks listening, that's another thing I do is like, I tend to check in with my friends at some sort of interval of like, "Hey, are these pronouns still feeling good for you? Is there anything you want me to do differently?" So like, there's always times to check in about it. It doesn't have to be awkward.

[00:41:27] Tonya: Yeah, you're really good at that, and I appreciate it.

[00:41:30] Charlie Ocean: Yeah, so I'm not gonna anchor in what you've given me now, and then just like hold on to that forever. (Tonya laughs) I will check in with you closer to writing.

[00:41:40] Tonya: Thanks.

[00:41:40] Charlie Ocean: For sure.

[00:41:41] Tonya: We'll have probably an extended conversation.

[00:41:45] Charlie Ocean: Yes, yes. Is there anything traditionally gendered, like, in terms of endearment or anything like that, that honor you? That people would be like, "Huh?"

[00:41:57] Tonya: I love "auntie." Like, I just feel like everything that word embodies is what I want to be in life. (laughs)

[00:42:04] Charlie Ocean: Okay, now we need a definition, please, and thank you.

[00:42:07] Tonya: Just, like, I don't know, like, I think about, I think about my aunties, like, they were always, like, the, like, fun, and, like, you know, they have kids now, but they didn't when I was younger, like, they would let us do things that our parents didn't let us do. Like, we'd go see movies that were, like, PG 13 and probably shouldn't have been watching, like -

[00:42:30] Charlie Ocean: Scandalous.

[00:42:32] Tonya: Just like a, you know, just like fun and still like excited about life. And I've always thought of myself becoming an auntie, like, cause I've always known I didn't want to have my own kids. So it's like this role that like, I really, you know, none of my siblings have had kids yet, but I am the lucky auntie of two of my best friend's kids.

And, you know, just like that role in their lives, like, I come over and we bake stuff and we make a mess, and like, we just have a good time, and they're always so excited to see me, and to me, like, those are all of the things that being an auntie is.

[00:43:09] Charlie Ocean: What are some examples of gender euphoria that you've experienced recently?

[00:43:16] Tonya: Mmm.

[00:43:17] Charlie Ocean: It's fun watching your face light up when I asked you that. (Tonya laughs)

[00:43:20] Tonya: So I love wearing a sports bra with high neck clothing for whatever reason, just like makes me feel really good. And I recently got rid of all of my padded bras, because I was like, "These feel terrible; (laughs) do not like."

[00:43:43] Charlie Ocean: And you don't need them to be any bigger.

[00:43:45] Tonya: No, no. Fair enough; enough of an issue. (Charlie laughs) I also think - I was in Texas recently for work. I went into this coffee shop that's in the town where I was. And I walked in and the person working was like, "Oh, hi," you know, all of the normal stuff. And then they asked me if I was from around there and I said "no." And the person responded with, "Well, I can kind of tell because people here are pretty traditional."

I think it's the first time I've ever felt like a stranger maybe actually saw me for who I am and it felt really, really good. It felt really nice. I tend to have like a funkier vibe in dress and appearance. And I think that probably, this is like a very small, rural town in Texas, not like I was in Dallas or something. So I think that was probably part of it, the way I was dressed, having visible facial piercings, visible tattoos. Like, I think all of those things kind of probably contributed to that comment.

Like, it may have actually had nothing to do with my gender, (laughs) but it still felt really good.

[00:45:05] Charlie Ocean: No, that's great.

[00:45:06] Tonya: Something I thought would be more euphoric than it ended up being is I cut my hair really, really short, not too long ago, maybe like a year ago. And I really was like trying to commit to liking it, but I hated it. (laughs) And I am now in the process of growing it back out. That was an interesting experience. And I think it was part of that, like, "Oh, now that I'm like openly nonbinary, I have to be more androgynous looking."

And for me, like the hair thing, it was sensory. Because it was short, I couldn't pull it up, Like I couldn't pull it up easily. There are sometimes having like hair, like on my face, on my neck or whatever, like makes me want to, I'll just like, I just want to freak out and it has to go up. But if it's not easy to put up, then it's like still like all, you know, so like, that's why I hated it. I was like, "This is horrible." (laughs)

I guess I could shave my head and be bald and that might be okay (laughs) from a sensory perspective, but it's not really the vibe I'm going for at this point in time. Sometimes I wonder how much of my preferences are even related to, to gender because I think gender can be whatever you want, right? Like you can be a cis man and wear a dress and I think so many of like the things.

I wonder this about my chest a lot. Is it dysphoria or is it like sensory, "I cannot deal with this," feelings? Cause they, they both feel bad. (laughs)

[00:46:41] Charlie Ocean: I've wondered at times, if people weren't so rigid in their gender expectations and binaries, if I wouldn't have so much dysphoria and like have so much grief. Like, I feel very good and confident about all of the decisions I've made, and I know almost all of mine were overwhelmingly sensory based more than anything else because of my autism, and I definitely have talked about this before on the podcast.

But when I'm thinking about it, sometimes it's just because, like, what other people are doing doesn't make me feel good, so like, when I had a chest that was not flat, and like, how people would interact with it, things like that, things people would say, or like, looking at, whatever, like, it just always made me so uncomfortable because it felt like they were zooming in on something that just didn't feel like me.

[00:47:34] Tonya: Yeah.

[00:47:35] Charlie Ocean: And it just felt awful. I don't know that I can really articulate this thought very well right now, but yeah, I, I think it's like the pronouns, like if people could just see the wholeness of us instead and not fixate on these like things, like whatever that is, be it body parts or whatever and how big they are or not, whatever, right.

I think I wouldn't experience gender dysphoria as strongly as I have, but I think it would still be there to an extent. I don't know.

[00:48:06] Tonya: Yeah. It resonates what you're saying too about them becoming like - I had actually very small boobs for most of my time having boobs. Like it wasn't until I was about 30 that all of a sudden it was like, I mean, it was wild. It was like overnight. (laughs)

[00:48:24] Charlie Ocean: Bodies are weird.

[00:48:26] Tonya: And they just became huge and they became so much more of a focal point. And then I started to get very uncomfortable with them and experience a lot more dysphoria and, like, trying to hide them, cover them up. Like, you know, when I had smaller boobs, I wore, like, really low cut shirts and stuff; I had no cleavage or, like, it didn't matter. It was just (laughs) flat.

And I will never - I don't like when, like, something gives me cleavage. It doesn't feel good. I don't like it when people focus on them, when people say things about them. I'm, like that kind of stuff never happened when they were smaller. I didn't even think about them.

[00:49:08] Charlie Ocean: People feel, not all of them, but I think there are a great number of people who feel that they have a right to comment on people's bodies. Because even if it were in the other direction, right, there would be plenty of people thinking or saying "mosquito bites" or something, right, if they were -

[00:49:24] Tonya: Yeah.

[00:49:24] Charlie Ocean: If they were smaller. And I just think, like, maybe just don't fucking comment on people's bodies? I don't know. I think it's such a deeply personal thing. If I know something's affirming to someone -

[00:49:35] Tonya: Yeah.

[00:49:35] Charlie Ocean: Then that's different, right, or if I'm in like a, maybe a romantic or sexual relationship with someone of some kind and we've established what would feel good to them in terms of any adjectives that would be gender affirming, etc. but yeah. I don't know, I just, I feel like it comes back to a bigger issue of people feeling like they have a right to comment on other people's bodies, one way or another.

[00:50:00] Tonya: My partner knows how I feel about my boobs, so they don't become a focal point of anything ever (laughs) for us, which I am very, you know - not grateful for because, like, he's a good partner, that's what somebody who loves you should do, right? Like, they hear you, they understand what feels good to you and doesn't feel good to you.

[00:50:17] Charlie Ocean: Yeah.

[00:50:18] Tonya: And I think a lot of times, like, when people have commented on them, it's been because I keep them covered up so much, or like wear a sports bra or whatever. When they are visible, people are like surprised and that's when they make comments and it makes me feel like, not good.

[00:50:41] Charlie Ocean: That's why I've been loving when people maybe post a photo of themselves or something, when they also share like what would feel affirming. Like, and I've been doing that as well. Like I could hear almost anything. Like, I'm not going to feel insecure if someone says I have beautiful eyes or something, like if it's like a good and genuine compliment. And again, because they're not trying to put me in a box or see me in a way that doesn't feel like they truly see me, you know? Yeah.

But do I have a slight preference for more masculine leaning what we would consider maybe to be more masculine leaning terminology, like "handsome" or something? Sure. But I, I don't know, like, again, I'm also okay with being called "cute," or again, like having beautiful eyes or different things like that. Like I'm a lot more comfortable now, especially for having compliments around things that I don't know, I guess would be considered more, I don't know, considered softer, I guess, or something.

[00:51:42] Tonya: Yeah.

[00:51:43] Charlie Ocean: But it's taken medically, and socially, and legally transitioning to be comfortable with that kind of stuff, because before it felt like I could never stop being measured up to how much of a girl I wasn't being.

And now I mean, every now and then I'll get someone - and it hasn't happened in a while or maybe these people have like, something in their brain telling them this probably isn't a good thing to say out loud - but I feel like every now and then I would tell someone that I'm nonbinary or whatever language I was using at the time, like "trans," and then they'd be like, "Oh yeah, I can see it now because of your hands or your feet or whatever."

It's like, go fuck yourself. Like, I hate shit like that. It really pisses me off. So, yeah, people are weird. Bodies are weird.

[00:52:27] Tonya: Yeah.

[00:52:28] Charlie Ocean: Gender is weird.

[00:52:29] Tonya: Gender is weird. (laughs) Like, why does it even exist?

[00:52:32] Charlie Ocean: Well, I could see you getting a tattoo that says "gender is a drag" or something, some variant of that. (Tonya laughs)

[00:52:40] Tonya: Oh man, I love that. That is a great idea.

I just, that's like my constant question. Like, why do we do this to ourselves? Like, everybody, gender does nothing but create, like, weird expectations for people that create a lot of unhealthy behavior. Like -

[00:52:59] Charlie Ocean: It sets standards that are sometimes impossible to achieve and not necessarily, like, the goals for us.

[00:53:07] Tonya: Even if you are cis, like -

[00:53:09] Charlie Ocean: Yeah.

[00:53:10] Tonya: It hurts. I mean, the, I guess this is one of the things we're going to talk about, like, the binary hurts cis people too. Like, it's like there's this one way to be a man and there's this one way to be a woman, and that's all that exists.

[00:53:27] Charlie Ocean: When we were talking about this episode before recording some time ago, I wrote down what you said. You said, "We're all harmed by the binary. We end up having to get lumped into one or the other, and it's really just based on how people perceive us. Nothing to do with one's true identity or what you actually are. You have to fit into one or the other, and if you don't, you are a woman trying to fit in with the men, or a man getting teased for not being manly enough, and totally excluding people who don't identify as men or women."

Does "trans" fit for you at all, or has it been an identity that you've claimed at any point?

[00:54:06] Tonya: I've never claimed it, and I don't feel like it fits for me. I feel like even if I do some medical transitioning, I don't feel like I'm really transitioning. I just feel like I am who I am. There wasn't a point where I wasn't this, and so that label just doesn't feel affirming to me.

[00:54:23] Charlie Ocean: What's one allyship tip you'd like everyone listening to consider?

[00:54:29] Tonya: I would like everyone listening to consider more carefully how to handle when you've done harm to someone. Harm can be big, harm can be little, and we all do it. We all make mistakes. I think as a good ally, you have to really be able to address when you've caused someone harm and be accepting of whatever their response is, because it's not about you and you can continue to be an ally and learn from the mistake, from whatever happened, but the person that was harmed doesn't owe you anything, including forgiveness. You have to forgive yourself, but that person doesn't have to forgive you.

[00:55:10] Charlie Ocean: Tonya, I adore and love you so much. Thank you for having your first podcast interview with me. I'm so lucky to have you as a best friend and business attorney. Also know that your story will resonate with people, so thank you for your vulnerability.

Folks, with the holidays around the corner and this being the last episode for a bit, I want to tell you about a critical resource you or someone you know may need. The QTP Loveline is a rapid response healing justice initiative of the Queer Trans Project. Featuring pre recorded messages of affirmation and encouragement from LGBTQ+ members and allies in our community for our LGBTQ+ community. This initiative is designed to combat the hate and remind our community of our love and power.

I was incredibly honored to be asked to contribute, so I am one of the audio clips that you may hear. The transcript is also available on the website for those who are deaf and hard of hearing. I'll be sure to include all of the details in the show notes and on the website. The number to call is 1 (800) 578 - 5683.

And now it is time for our final three self-reflection questions.

4. Do I have friends who quote their therapists?

5. Are there any identities I want to adopt or, drop?

6. Have you ever wished you reacted differently to someone coming out to you? If so, what would you have liked to have done differently?

Visit AllyshipIsAVerb.com for any resources and a full transcript of the episode.

And remember, sometimes allyship means knowing how to handle when you've caused harm to someone else.