[00:00:17] Chris Angel Murphy

Well, hello there. My name is Chris Angel and my pronouns are they/them. Welcome to Allyship is a Verb, the LGBTQ+ podcast that explores and humanizes practicing allyship for the LGBTQ+ community and beyond.

[00:00:38] Dr. Kyl Myers

Hello, friend. My name is Kyl Myers and I use they/them and she/her pronouns.

[00:00:43] Chris Angel Murphy

Dr. Myers is a PhD-trained sociologist who specializes in gender and sexuality education. They're super passionate about public sociology and making academic research accessible and actionable for grownups who wants to create a more inclusive and equitable world for kids. Their book, Raising Them: Our Adventure in Gender Creative Parenting hit shelves in September of 2020. If you're thinking about gender creative parenting, check out their book and tons of other resources they've created, such as their essay for Time Magazine. They've also got a lovely community on Patreon that I'll link to on their episode page, which features a monthly book club. We connected earlier this year in May and when I found out about their work on LinkedIn, I went down a rabbit hole. I was absolutely fascinated and knew I wanted to collaborate with them. So thank you, Kyl, and here's our conversation.

[00:01:46] Chris Angel Murphy
You identify as a public sociologist, advocate, gender creative parent, and a genderqueer and queer person. Can you briefly share what those identities mean to you?

[00:01:59] Dr. Kyl Myers
Sure, my identity as a public sociologist just comes so much from my academic training that was just such a huge part of my early adulthood- was just being in school and graduate school. And I do think that being a sociologist totally shapes how I think about the world and show up in the world. And so that does feel just like a primary identity for me and not so much as you know, like a career thing, because, but just yeah, just how I-how I have shown up. So that's, you know, definitely a big identity for me that I kind of lead with a lot. And as a gender creative parent and a genderqueer person and a queer person, I've been queer- I came out as queer when I was 21. Well, I came out as bisexual, which then evolved to pansexual, which then evolved to queer. It's a huge part of my identity. And the one that I think that I have to like, come out with a lot because I did marry a cisgender man, and I think I get read as a cisgender woman, but I'm genderqueer and found that term a few years ago and it just felt really cozy to me. And I feel so committed to making sure people know my identity as a genderqueer person and a queer person, because I think it's so easy for them to assume otherwise that I'm straight and cis and so that is something that's important to me to talk about. And- and then as a gender creative parent, when my child Zoomer was born, we didn't assign a gender to Zoomer and- and we used they/them pronouns from the start, and really just created a gender-expansive environment for Zoomer to grow up in so that they could, like, have the language and the framework and the opportunity to tell us their gender when it felt right for them. And around his fourth birthday, he did. He said, like, "I love he him pronouns, I'm a boy, "and we enthusiastically support him in that. And so because of my background as a sociologist, it just kind of primed me to be an advocate for gender creative parenting because I was teaching gender and sexuality in, you know, university classrooms, and there weren't that many public advocates for gender creative parenting and I felt there needed to be because I wanted some possibility models in my life, I wanted community. And so I, you know, took it upon myself to start writing blogs about it and talking about it and found community and there's so many other people who are doing this. And so that's, you know, kind of, I think, how they all come full- full circle of being able to talk about, you know, equally shared parenting, talk about being a queer person, talk about being a genderqueer parent, and a gender creative parent. And I think a lot of that, my ability to do that, or the way I do that is definitely linked to my identity as a sociologist.

[00:04:49] Chris Angel Murphy
Absolutely and diving into the gender creative parent part first, I'm wondering, and there's so many I'm sure that you fielded, but what's one question that, especially related to Zoomer, that you wish people didn't ask you? And what do you wish people would have asked about instead?

[00:05:10] Dr. Kyl Myers
But won't your kid be confused? That would-that would probably be the question that I get asked the most that makes me not uncomfortable, but just, I just wish that they would- the person who is asking this could just think, like, two levels deeper, about, like, what do you think they're being confused about, right? Because this conversation, what it leads to is the confused about cisnormativity? You know? I mean, like, what if we were to look at it the other way of- of when we are raising kids in a culture or an environment that pretends that there are only two genders, and that they are- that they are determined by their genitals, and that specific colors and clothes and toys and careers, are designated for, you know, if you're a boy, then you can do these things. And if you're a girl, then you can do these things. Isn't that more confusing, right? For a child to have to unpack? And so I just wish that there could be a little bit more critical thinking around that question of- of "well, won't Zoomer be confused?" You know, it's like, no! I mean, I say "no," but you know, but I also think that they're- Zoomer is not confused. I think that Zoomer has been given a realistic narrative of the world that includes trans people and intersex people. And the fact that not all people who are having a child are mommies, right? I think that I just made Zoomer's world so [Kyl laughs] much more expansive. And for sure, Zoomer has questions, but I don't think that that means Zoomer is confused. I think that we're, you know, giving him the little gems that he needs to be able to understand the reality of gender and bodies and stuff. So that's- that's something that comes up, you know, of like, we're doing Zoomer some disservice. And it's like, I think that we're doing Zoomer and all of the people that he is going to meet a service, because he won't be confused or disoriented when he meets people who are beyond the binary, you know? So that's- that's something that comes up a lot that I just wish more people would take a moment to think like to, you know, to turn it around and look at kids who are raised within the binary, the hyper binary, and say, "you don't think that's confusing kids at all?"

[00:07:44] Chris Angel Murphy
What would have been a more supportive question? Or what would be even now a more supportive question?

[00:07:49] Dr. Kyl Myers
"What can I be doing for children in my life to make sure they are growing up to celebrate diversity of humans," that, you know? I mean, I just wish people could- would ask me more of "what's something that I could start doing today," you know, "that could help me paint this world more inclusive and equitable for kids?" You know, that's- that's something that I think would be a good question. And the list is very long of what you can be doing. But, you know, just taking a look at what we've inherited- this binary, you know, that is being put upon children. And just asking yourself, like, "what purpose is this serving?" Right? Is this- what are- what are the potential harms that are coming from imposing these binary views on these kids.

So, I just-I do wish people would not feel so intimidated by it, right? Like, you don't have to do gender creative parenting how I did it. But also, I would say that 90% of what I do as a parent, anybody can do, right? Like anybody can take their kid through all of the clothing aisles without judgment and say, like, "let's pick you out some new pajamas, you know, and let's look at all the pajamas, you know, because I don't want to teach you these arbitrary boundaries between clothes so that you know that you can wear anything that you want. And also so you are not rude to other people, because you understand that anyone can wear anything they want," you know? So I just- these are just practices that anybody can do. You don't have to be using "they/them" pronouns for your kid to be able to go into the, you know, the clothing department that's marketed to a different gender. So, that kind of stuff.

[00:09:37] Chris Angel Murphy
Yeah. Well, and I think that's a great segue into- I did ask my Instagram followers to give me some questions for you regarding gender creative parenting and the first one was if someone is considering adopting this into their parenting style, what are some tips you can give on how to explain this to their family? And if there's any tips, in particular, for family members who may not understand or may be against it.

[00:10:05] Dr. Kyl Myers
I fall back on two main reasons for why I do gender creative parenting and why I think that it's important. The first is that nonbinary and intersex and trans people exist. And intersex, trans, and nonbinary kids exist. And we are actually seeing so much more visibility, right? Because there's so much more language, there's so much more community. Online spaces help with that. There's so much more affirmation, you know? And even institutional acknowledgment of people who are outside of the binary. So, I think that's kind of reason number one was I don't know what Zoomer's gender is going to be. And I can hold space for a few years, teach them everything, and then he'll arrive and he did. And so that's, that's reason number one is I just think the way we're traditionally raising kids erases trans folks, and intersex folks, nonbinary folks, and I don't want to be complicit in that.

[00:10:06] Dr. Kyl Myers
So, the second reason, though, is even if my kid is this gender, there's so much sexism that children are experiencing that negatively impacts their life. And that was another thing, was we see these gender stereotypes and gender-based violence occurring in infants. And so, I just wanted to kind of build the shield around Zoomer of maybe I can kind of help protect them, probably not forever, of course, but I might be able to protect my child from experiencing sexism in early childhood, you know? And those were kind of where it came from.

[00:11:45] Dr. Kyl Myers
And I think something that was really helpful for me is taking the the focus off of Zoomer and even putting it back on the person who I was talking with of just saying, "Dad, have you never experienced a gender stereotype?" Right? And I think helping people critically think about their own upbringing was wonderful, because they could kind of go inwards and go, "Yeah, like, I did get made fun of when I had a purple bike. And of course, I wouldn't want that for my grandbaby." Or, "I felt this pressure to make all the money in my family, you know, and that was a lot because then I didn't get to be as involved of a dad," or whatever it is, right? Like, I think that putting it back on people for them to do [Kyl laughs] a little bit of a, you know, an inward historical glimpse of how have you personally been impacted by gender-based oppression? I was also so firmly committed to gender creative parenting, there was no one that was going to change my mind. There was nothing that was going to, like, shake my confidence in doing gender creative parenting to the point that I wouldn't do it. Like, it's- it hasn't been a total cakewalk, but I would do it again.

[00:13:01] Chris Angel Murphy
Another question that came in was if there's any research on gender creative parenting from the child's perspective. And I guess, if I put on my empathy hat, and if I think about being a parent, I think about one of the most stressful things might be just, like, getting it right, doing it right. Is there any way that I could like, harm my child? And I think that would be my mindset there. So have you seen any research on this or?

[00:13:30] Dr. Kyl Myers
There's so little research on gender creative parenting full stop that, you know, it's just this gap, but I am not aware of any studies that focus on a child who was raised without an assigned gender. I'm aware of studies of kids who are nonbinary and trans, but who were assigned a gender, you know, and I'm aware of those types of studies. And we know overwhelmingly that those kids fare better when they're in a home with supportive and affirming, loving families, you know? And adults and friends. But I think that is changing. I have participated in a little bit of research of being interviewed, you know, by academics who are trying to, you know, gain some more insight about gender creative parenting. I don't know if there's enough families who would participate, right? To even have a sample that could- that you could glean, you know, some type of generalizable information from, but also, so many of the kids are quite young. Zoomer's 5 and a half, and he's one of the older kids that have been raised this way, at least who are kind of, you know, in this public sphere. Almost all of the kids that I'm aware of are younger than Zoomer.

[00:14:43] Dr. Kyl Myers
There are- there are several who are 6,7,8 and even Sasha and Storm, who are the kids who I was inspired by and I learned about them in 2011-2012. They're older, but their parents don't really, you know, have any type of like public blog or, you know, updates about them, which is fine and- right? Like, people deserve to be able to do whatever they want and have this not be a spectacle, right? For people to try to dissect. And so I think we will see more research. We don't have it yet, but the way I look at this is I think there are- there's so much evidence that the gender binary is not healthy for children. We have so much evidence of the harmful implications of raising children within the gender binary. So as a social scientist, I kind of see this as the inverse, right? Of well, if you were to take away all of these sources of shame and stigma, then, right? Couldn't we assume? Couldn't we take, like, an educated guess that we are going to see the opposite effect, right? So if a child is shamed for playing- if a boy child is shamed for playing with dolls, and you know, and disciplined for wanting his nails painted, like, and then you know, and then goes on to have this internalized shame around that, and this internalized femmephobia, then can't we assume that just making these activities available to all children, and not passing any shameful judgment on them, right? Like that they wouldn't be learning these harmful stereotypes and internalizing them or perpetuating them upon their peers. And so if we move away from the gender binary, there could be some healthier outcomes for kids. And I see that, like, we see that. So as far as a child raised gender creative as the research subject, we just don't have that yet, as far as I'm aware, but I- I would definitely invite a scholar to take on that longitudinal study. I think that that would be really- a really powerful contribution.

[00:16:52] Chris Angel Murphy
I second that motion. I think- I think that's how that goes, right? So, now- now will have to be so. [Kyl laughs]

[00:16:58] Dr. Kyl Myers
True. [Both laugh]

[00:17:00] Chris Angel Murphy
This question is around- If a friend of someone has a child who's perhaps maybe trans and or bisexual, how could like I support my parent friend? Like, what are maybe some good resources to send? You know, if my friend's even open to it. Yeah, I guess does- is there anything that you feel has been helpful or that you think would be helpful?

[00:17:27] Dr. Kyl Myers
I think one of the most important things to do for parents who are maybe doing gender creative parenting, or parents who have a kid who is not cisgender, is just showing up and making sure you're giving that parent and the child, like, experiences and love outside of that. Nonbinary kids- that's not the whole thing of their identity, right? But it gets made to be so much, right? When they're constantly being misgendered. And so I actually think the way to show up is just by coming in with just heaps of love, right? And open mindedness and just saying, "What name or pronouns," right? Like, "do you want me to use," it, like- like making sure that you're asking the right questions so that you can avoid misgendering them or calling them by a name that they don't want.

[00:18:11] Dr. Kyl Myers
But then moving beyond that, right? Like, "hey, got it. This is the name you're using right now. And these are the pronouns that you want me to use for you." And then, "what are you learning at school? What's your favorite book right now? Are you into video games?" Like- you- like just those kinds of things. I think that kids and, you know, young people are whole people. I think people get so intimidated about messing up, right? That they that they almost retreat from people's lives. And so I think that leaning in to, you know, "this is great, this is wonderful. I want to be a supportive person in this person's life." And being there for a parent friend, like we can talk about whatever you want and whatever you're going through. But, I often hear from people- parents of nonbinary children, they say, "the hardest thing about having a nonbinary child is having to deal with the other people who don't know, right? Who are who are squeamish about it, or, or are scared about it, or in a panic about it. Like, I love my nonbinary kid and we're doing great. It's the awkward conversations with my coworkers that I want to stop," you know?

[00:19:22] Dr. Kyl Myers
And so I think that that's my advice is if you actually have that capacity, because you're an affirming, gender intelligent person, that you can show up and be just a normal person in their life. You know, I think that that's really powerful. And then, of course, taking on that emotional labor of spreading the message to your mutual friends, right? Of like, the "here's what's going on, like, this is this kid's pronouns and like, we don't need to make a big deal out of it. Like, let's just support our friend, you know, and this is not a failure on their part [Kyl laughs] as a parent, right? How awesome, how lucky that we get to have this trans kid in our life and that we get to show up for them and use their pronouns and save their life and, you know, and make their life more colorful and fun and affirming." "So, your kid's queer? Awesome! Like, can I take them to do miniature golf?" [Kyl laughs] You know, [both laugh] like, it's just like, I just want more people not making such a big panic deal about it. Be there for someone, you know, if they want to open up and talk about stuff.

[00:20:25] Dr. Kyl Myers
I'm not trying to minimize it, right? But I do think that that's what's so critical. I loved it when people were just so thrilled to see Zoomer. And were just like, "here's the bubbles, we're gonna do this. Like I'm- here's the waterslide. Like, do you want the dolls? Do you want the Lego?" Like, I just loved when people showed up and just treated Zoomer like a child, you know? Instead of going through this filter of intimidation, you know, and so that was meaningful for me.

[00:20:50] Chris Angel Murphy
Absolutely. And it makes me think of one of the biggest resources to come to mind typically is PFLAG. I love that you didn't go that route and you talked about just like being there and showing up for the friend. And just like being that space where they can talk about anything, if there's been parts that have been confusing, or just like being that safer space. I really love coming back to that.

[00:21:15] Chris Angel Murphy
Now that Zoomer has shared with you who he is, and this is who we believe him to be right now, it could always change, too, right? We hold space for that.

[00:21:24] Dr. Kyl Myers
Mhm.

[00:21:24] Chris Angel Murphy
What does the gender creative parenting look like now? Does your role change at all do you feel? Or, like, how, what- what does it look like now?

[00:21:32] Dr. Kyl Myers
My role has changed in that I don't have to do as much, like, proactive education for the institutions that we come in to contact with on behalf of Zoomer. But it's changed that I do that on behalf of myself as a genderqueer person or on behalf of other children in the institution who, right? Like, for swimming lessons or something, right? If-if the form is saying, "is the student a boy or a girl?" You know, that I can go "is this totally relevant and necessary for swimming lessons?" And also, "for children who are not these things, right? Like, where- where is your inclusion of them?" And so I think that my advocacy has kind of evolved beyond Zoomer. Like, it was always there. I was always trying to advocate for institutional change. But, Zoomer was a focus, right? Of trying to help people use they/them pronouns for Zoomer and not stereotype Zoomer.

[00:22:26] Dr. Kyl Myers
But now, I think my advocacy has been able to get bigger, you know? And so that feels good in ways and-and I think my identity has shifted a bit in that people have no idea who we are, you know? When Zoomer started kindergarten, "he uses he/him pronouns, is a boy," that feels so interesting, you know? That-that was that's so different than how we had to navigate daycare when Zoomer was before gender. But when it comes to how, you know, my interactions with Zoomer go, 5, 6 years old is a really intense time of how they're picking up on the things around them. There's a lot of influence from peers, there's a lot of influence from media. I don't really think that my behavior as a gender creative parent has changed. Like, it definitely hasn't loosened up, you know? [Chris Angel laughs] I'm not like, "Okay, well, you've identified with this gender. So let me stereotype you," right? It's more, "okay, you've identified with this gender, I need to continue helping you understand a language that is gender-inclusive and I need to help you understand how to identify when somebody is trying to stereotype you," right?

[00:23:32] Dr. Kyl Myers
It's evolved and in some ways gotten more challenging, you know? Because I'm in competition with so many more sources, because he's 5 and a half and not 5 months, right? So, my influence is weaker than it was. He asks such wonderful questions and I want more people to know that 3-year-olds can handle it, 5-year-olds can handle it, right? Like, little kids can handle learning about bodies and families and reproduction and identity in really expansive ways. You know, Zoomer has always been taught about reproduction in a way that acknowledges trans people-nonbinary, right? That takes gender out of the equation. And so we were just talking about sperm donation [both laugh] the other day and I just want people, right? I think a lot of people get nervous about talking about sex. It's like, kids have questions about sex! And bodies and babies. And so- so I actually feel like I'm definitely not always getting it right, you know?

[00:24:43] Dr. Kyl Myers
But I just try to show up for him in an inclusive way and in an age-appropriate way, you know? And sometimes it can feel pretty intense of- the binary comes in so strong, you know? And he'll say things and it's like, "oh. You know, like, TV is definitely having an influence on-on how you are understanding gender." And so I just really see my job as playing whack-a-mole, you know? Of like, "well, there's a lot of girls who like having short hair, there's a lot of boys who like," you know, "wearing makeup" and so that just trying to constantly complicate, right? Complicate it so that his biases don't get permanent, you know? Just like constantly trying to be that place of shaking it up because children learn racial bias, gender bias, classist bias, ablest bias so much in this age. And if you aren't in there trying to untangle it and get it out, then you're going to have a lot more work cut out for you in their, you know, later childhood, adolescence, and adulthood.

[00:25:49] Chris Angel Murphy
Maybe this is my millennial brain, but I think of Clippy from, like, Microsoft Office, like, popping up and saying, like, [Kyl laughs] "It looks like you're watching a show that's very biased about gender. Have you thought about, like...." You know, and like... [Kyl laughs]

[00:26:05] Dr. Kyl Myers
I love that! [both laughing]

[00:26:06] Chris Angel Murphy
that's where my brain went.

[00:26:07] Dr. Kyl Myers
That's so good. Yeah, I'm trying to be Clippy, but like- [Chris Angel laughs]

[00:26:11] Chris Angel Murphy
But useful- [both laugh]

[00:26:12] Dr. Kyl Myers
The Clippy that yeah, not the Clippy that gets like discontinued because everybody hates Clippy. [Chris Angel laughs] Yeah, just just- that's so funny. I love that. Yes, I am. I am the squiggle line, you know, underneath some stuff of like, or, or... and-and it's a delicate dance I have learned, right? Because I can see Zoomer does not want a gender studies lecture every day. And that's not happening, right? And so you- I have to find these ways to be almost sneaky about it sometimes or not in, like, a deceitful way.

[00:26:49] Chris Angel Murphy
Sure.

[00:26:49] Dr. Kyl Myers
But just how do you make gender equity and inclusion fun and entertaining, right? Instead of being like, "no, no, no, this isn't happening." So, I do a lot of that through play. You know, when we're playing I- I'm like, "well, these these are the two mommies," you know, or whatever. Like, you can-you can make these examples through play. And then I can see Zoomer mimic me, you know? So, yeah, but it is, it's just like, okay, it's this consistent drip. That's how I would explain it, right? You cannot turn the fire hose on because it overwhelms kids. They, you know, it's like, how do you let them watch the show that they want to watch, because all of the kids are watching it, and provide some counter narration, right? Or something like that, so that binary lessons, you know, that's in that show don't stick.

[00:27:42] Chris Angel Murphy
Yeah and what I'm hearing is you're not trying to, like, force feed him into believing what you believe or anything like that, but just helping him to be a critical young person. And just think about, like, how he feels about things and things like that, which I think just [Chris Angel laughs] comes back to again, parenting in general, right?

[00:27:59] Dr. Kyl Myers
Yeah, that's the hope.

[00:28:01] Chris Angel Murphy
I've been following you on Instagram for a while now and something that's happened in waves for you has been people flooding your social media accounts sometimes with praise, but then also sometimes with misinformation, hatred- general utter nonsense when they come across your work, usually fueled by maybe a recently published article, a show that you've been on, something of that nature. And we were talking a while back when we first met and the impression I got that it was just business as usual for you. You even generally knew these folks would fall off and just sort of give up or get quiet. And it makes me think of some of the unique challenges of LGBTQ+ people and families being in the spotlight and some of the downsides of that. So all of that being said, what's been important for you to put into place to provide safety for yourself and your family, if anything? And how do you usually approach the negativity? Is it easier to ignore the misguided comments? Or are there times maybe you choose to engage with folks if you think they're on the fence or coming from a good place?

[00:29:09] Dr. Kyl Myers
That's a great summary and a great- and great questions. So we became public advocates in 2016 when Zoomer was born, but like public advocates in our own little corner, not really trying to seek attention. Like, we were there for people who needed to find us and could probably find us. My first interview was with New York Magazine when Zoomer was 2 in 2018. And I was so naive to how like click-bait and media works. And so this article came out and it was a great article, really well done. And but then it just got picked up all over the world and people were putting my Instagram account- the Raising Zoomer Instagram account embedded into these articles in tabloids. And so people just had this direct line to me. They could just click on that and then just leave comments, send direct messages, share it in their groups, you know? And kind of sic people on me and us. And it was so overwhelming. And that was my first experience with it. I did feel in that point of trying to respond to everybody, almost like "No, no, no, you've misunderstood this, this isn't- what was happening," you know, and there was just this intensive, oh my gosh, it just got into like my bloodstream, you know? I just couldn't not think about it, I couldn't not engage. I was in there trying to change the hearts and minds of every troll. [Kyl laughs] And it was exhausting work, you know?

[00:30:43] Chris Angel Murphy
Yeah, that's some big emotional labor, [Kyl laughs] trying to change minds of trolls. Hoo!

[00:30:47] Dr. Kyl Myers
Totally and so I did start to learn though, I started to learn the psychology of it, though, right? And, like, kind of, like, what is going on here? And I did start to learn that trolls want to get a reaction out of you, right? They want to see that they've gotten under your skin. And so I started seeing that, when I was showing up with data, evidence, humor, love- they lost interest in me, right? When I was able to come in and say, you know, if they're like, you know, "God, you know, made two genders," you know, [Chris Angel laughs] or whatever, you know, and I could just show up and just kind of be funny, like, "oh, well, like, I'm not religious. So, you know," or whatever. Like, I just, I just would kind of do these, like, whatever quips but- but I also was learning that my comments back to people then became fuel for another news cycle, or would become quotes, as if, you know?

[00:31:41] Dr. Kyl Myers
I just learned how unethical this new age of journalism, quote, [Kyl laughs] "journalism" is, [Chris Angel laughs] that they're just snagging stuff off of the internet. When I started seeing my comment, "and Myers says, blah, blah," you know, and I was just like, this is wild, right? Like, anything I write on the internet is then game for somebody to take. And you know, so many people would say, like, "why weren't you trying to get these things, take it down?" Oh, cuz I have the money for a lawyer, like I have the time to try to contact every single news publication that's writing something about me? Like, it's- that would be impossible to do. So, I learned some valuable lessons that once you have given one interview, you're a fair game and you're considered a public figure. And so that is when they're taking pictures off of Instagram. And it was just was really, really hard to deal with.

[00:32:32] Dr. Kyl Myers
But, as the years have gone on, I did learn that it comes in waves- the news article, or the show, or the podcast, or whatever happens, the people who are angry about it come and find me. The people who are happy about it come and find me. But then after a couple of weeks, the trolls lose interest. And I just recently, within the last few months, learned- and I don't think this was not- this wasn't a setting in Instagram. Instagram is where most of my stuff happens. I don't really play with Twitter, Instagram is where it happens. I learned that you could- you can select, like, who can comment, right? And you couldn't use to do that, like, it was anybody could comment. And so what I could do is I could go and delete things that were transphobic or homophobic and block people. But there were just so many. But now I have learned that you can make it so that only people who follow you can comment and so that makes it a little bit easier. So I have that setting on on my you know, Dr. Kyl Myers account and the Raising Zoomer account, because the trolls don't want to follow you, right? They just want to come in and they [Kyl laughs] just want to like spew their hate. And they don't want to go through that effort of following you to then do it. So that really helped minimize it. But I kind of found out that a little bit too late. But- but whatever. That's a setting out there that I think is important for people to know about.

[00:33:49] Dr. Kyl Myers
But it just zapped me, Chris Angel. Like, it this- that wave of people coming in, it feels so intrusive. And I know that people think like, "it's just the internet," and "they're just anonymous." It feels equivalent to them walking into my apartment because it just is sitting with me all day. These people. I don't know where they are, you know? Like, do- should I be afraid for my safety? Like, are these people who are saying they're gonna come and take Zoomer from me? Do they live in the city that we live in? Are they in a different country, right? Like, there's this fear that is instilled in you by these people and that's on purpose. That's what they want, you know? But it's just really hard to navigate that and I know that over the years, I've gotten a much thicker skin. I've gotten much more resilient to it. Nobody says anything anymore that's new, right? Like all of the hatred falls into maybe a [Kyl laughs] few buckets and so nothing is surprising to me anymore. But then on the positive side of things, that's also emotionally zapping because people are like "I found you, I didn't know about you, I'm so happy." And then I get these Instagram direct messages that are so long that then they have to, you know, they've hit the limit, and they have to press "send" and then send another one.

[00:35:13] Chris Angel Murphy
Oh, like the CVS receipt, it just keeps going. [Chris Angel laughs]

[00:35:17] Dr. Kyl Myers
It just keeps going and going. And it's just like, I can't do this, like, I can't be this for you. And it doesn't feel good to be able to just give it a double-tap like and be like, that's not the only person who's coming into my direct messages, you know? And so just the emails, and I just- that's one of the hardest things is just feeling like, I know you're excited that you have found this community, but it's also why I have worked my butt off to make resources. You need to go and read the blog, you need to go and read the book, you need to join the Facebook group. You need to read through this free content that I have created.

[00:35:52] Dr. Kyl Myers
Because it would take me I mean, it would just- and it does, it takes hours and hours and hours out of my life to respond to people. And I can't do that, you know? I can't do that. Like, if I'm spending hours of my life doing something, it has to be something that earns money, that puts food on my table. But you know, and it's just like, really, that's a really complicated place to be as a public advocate. I don't have the bandwidth to change the minds of all the trolls and to offer, like, personalized emotional support to all of the people who want to do gender creative parenting. And I think as like, as far as like my personality goes, that is so hard for me because I am, like, I want to show up for people. I'm very sensitive and empathic and it's just like, both things drain me. Both things drain me- showing up for people drains me and then not being able to show up for people [Kyl laughs] drains me. So, it's just- it's just been a lot.

[00:36:46] Dr. Kyl Myers
But it's also been incredibly rewarding to know that I could, you know, I wrote an article, and it could introduce gender creative parenting to literally millions of people across the globe. And then if they know about it, then it makes our community a little more normalized and humanized. It's all been worth it, but there's definitely been a cost. And I think that I'm finally able to recognize the cost of not being able to have that anonymity that so many people get to have. Like, look at all these gray hairs, Chris Angel. [Chris Angel laughs] Like-

[00:37:25] Chris Angel Murphy
I've got 'em, too. [both laugh]

[00:37:30] Dr. Kyl Myers
I don't know, it's just- it's completely altered the rest of my life. It definitely has. It's changed me, you know? And it's something that you can't put back in the can, you know?

[00:37:43] Chris Angel Murphy
Yeah, like the toothpaste or- [Kyl laughs] I can't put the toothpaste back in. Or you'd have a hell of a time trying to do it.

[00:37:49] Dr. Kyl Myers
[Kyl laughs] I know.

[00:37:51] Chris Angel Murphy
So being a genderqueer and queer person, people may perceive your relationship to be one that's cisgender/straight, quote, unquote, appearing. I'm wondering, what are ways that you feel seen in your relationship? As far as- are there things that you have to do that make you feel more valid or? I guess, can you just- yeah, talk more about that.

[00:38:24] Dr. Kyl Myers
So I think I started doing my own gender exploration when- after I had Zoomer. Like, I had come out as queer- felt really, like, "this is me," you know, "I'm not a straight person," since I was 21. And, but I- I was definitely identifying as a cisgender woman, you know, for most of my adulthood. And- and my gender expression was actually like, pretty hyper-feminine, you know, during a lot of my 20s. And then, in doing gender creative parenting, right? Where it's this- this daily practice of interrogating the patriarchy [Chris Angel laughs] and cisnormativity, it's no surprise that you would start to look a bit more inward at your own, you know, gender expression and identity and socialization. And so it was after Zoomer was born that I really was like, "Hey, wait a minute." And I think that this is really common among a lot of queer people even, right? Like in trans people and nonbinary people. It's like, [Kyl laughs] you get your sexuality figured out, and then you think like, [Chris Angel laughs] well, that's it, right? And then like, the big gender blob, you know, is like, "hello!" You know, like waiting for you. And so-

[00:39:33] Chris Angel Murphy
Yeah, like, but wait, but there's more. If you order now, [Kyl laughs] yeah.

[00:39:37] Dr. Kyl Myers
Totally. [Kyl laughs] We'll throw in you know, just gender questions for free. So, so I think what was going on for me was wanting to reparent myself in a way, right? And do that gender exploration myself of like, I'm giving my child so much freedom to explore. What about me? And so I also think though that there is this idea around gender identity or gender exploration that there needs to be this like grand transformation, right? That like, you have to go from looking like "this" to like completely "the opposite," right? And like that is, like, the appropriate genderqueer journey. And so I think I kind of internalize that a little bit.

[00:40:21] Dr. Kyl Myers
And so, for a few years- for the first few years of Zoomer's life, I was really aware of how I was performing gender to my child, right? Like, what is my child learning about womanhood or femininity from me? And so I kind of started playing with everything of like, I've never had my hair super short. I want to try that, you know? And, and so I cut, you know, my hair really short. And I've never grown out my armpit hair. I want to try that, you know? Like, I haven't done a lot of shopping in departments that are like, marketed to men. I want to try that.

And so I think that there was just this awesome, playful time for me to experiment. And I feel grateful that- and everybody should have a relationship like this, like, you know, I was very upfront with Brent of like, "I am doing some gender questioning and I need to be able to do this in a space where, like, I don't want to get all caught up and whether or not I'm still attractive to you and all that," you know? And- and he was SO wonderful, you know? He was like, "I did not marry you thinking you were going to stay the exact same way throughout the duration of our relationship." Like, you know, he's like, "For crying out loud, Kyl, I'm gender creative dad! Like, of course, you have the, you know, like, of course, you can play with gender," you know? He's like, "I understand why- the real reasons of why we're doing this, you know?"

[00:41:52] Dr. Kyl Myers
So, that was wonderful. And so to have that, like, pressure removed from my relationship, to be able, you know, and to also have the affirmation of him being like, "I'm actually really into your armpit hair," I, you know, like, "I think you look great with short hair," like, like, he's just never been like that. He was never right- the source of that I think a lot of women especially experience, right? Like, "I can't cut my hair, because my husband said he'll divorce me." [Kyl laughs] Like, that's trash. So, so I had a lot of ways to experiment with that. And so I do feel seen, you know, like, within my own relationship with Brent, but then I was also realizing like, you know, like, it's also okay to like what you like, even if it may be, quote, unquote, you know, like, conforming to gender norms, you know? Like, I really like to wear makeup sometimes. And I really like earrings, and I really, you know, like, and like, there's just these little things of being like, you can be genderqueer and not have to look androgynous or masculine because you were assigned female at birth.

[00:42:57] Dr. Kyl Myers
And so that has actually been where I've been lately, you know? Of like, I'm just gonna be who I want to be, dress how I want to dress, like, do me. While, recognizing like, of course, some of my habits and preferences are couched in 35 years of gender socialization, right? [Chris Angel laughs] And like, understanding beauty standards and things like that. But that's been actually really liberating, right? That like, "no, no, no, you can be genderqueer and still like what you like," but the flip side of that is, by growing my hair out again, because I like it, that people are just like, "Oh, was that a phase?" You know, that like people have this gender attribution? And so-

[00:43:39] Chris Angel Murphy
[Chris Angel sing-songs] Gender attribution. Ahh, [Chris Angel laughs] I'm going to lose listeners. Anyway, let's talk about it. Gender attribution is when we categorize people that we come into contact with as a man, woman, nonbinary, or another gender. The harm that can happen is we don't know someone's gender identity just by looking at them. And in making that assumption, we could be misgendering them. Do I need to say I helped a lady at the grocery store by grabbing her a box of rice on the top shelf? We may be including gender when it's not necessary. Does the story lose any value if I shift it to, "Oh, I was at the store today and it felt really good to help someone by grabbing something from the top shelf. I have accepted my place in the world as a tall person." [Chris Angel laughs] So, what do you think? I don't think anything's lost in the story by defaulting to gender-neutral terminology or pronouns like they/them. And now back to Kyl.

[00:44:50] Dr. Kyl Myers
I feel really seen by people in, like, my queer friends who get that I can have long hair and wear earrings and make up and that they should use they/them pronouns for me, right? And, like, that feels really- that feels really good. And I think that that nuance is often lost in a lot of other, like, social relationships that I have. And something that recently happened, because I- I introduced they/them pronouns into the mix years ago, like probably 3 years ago. And, like, as I was writing the book, so it's probably like in 2018-2019. So, so for people- I love it when I hear people use they/them pronouns for me- that- I feel really seen. And I have noticed, like, I hate when people say, like, "lady" to me or "ma'am," me, right? It doesn't feel good to me. And so I just had this experience where because I applied for a job, they were checking my references. So I, you know, called my references to give them a heads up about it. And I guarantee that 4 out of the 5 references probably used she/her pronouns for me, right? But one, when I- when I called her to say like, "Can I put you down as a reference?" She was so wonderful. And she was like, "Yeah," you know, she's like, "But careful, because I'm probably going to tell this person, like, 'please don't hire them. Like, I want them to come back to this job.'" [Chris Angel laughs] You know?

[00:46:17] Dr. Kyl Myers
And it's not often that I hear people use they/them pronouns for me when I'm not around, because that's just not- right? Like, we don't use pronouns when we're talking directly to somebody. So to hear her use they/them pronouns for me,TO me, was, like, there was like this euphoric jitters, right? And it was like, "oh, like, this is how it's supposed to feel like, this is how I feel seen." This is how you show up, right? As like a supportive person is you are taking an opportunity to validate me and to show me that you took note when I changed my pronouns in my email bio at work 3 years ago,to they/them, you know? And that you're, like, it may seem little, but those little moments are really, really meaningful and are also kind of affirming to myself, of like, "did you see how good that felt for you? Like, your nonbinary-ness is real," [Kyl laughs] like, you know? Like, because I think that being a queer person, like, I totally have internalized biphobia, you know? Like, I'm married to a cisgender man. Like, I know that I put that on myself of like, "I totally, like, I deserve this," like, "I married a man, like, I'm not as queer as I would have been if I married a woman or a nonbinary person," you know? That-like, that's- that's a real internalized biphobia for me. And/or that bierasure, right? For, like, that comes up. And so, I think that the same thing happens for my gender. You know, when people are like, [sing-song] "Let's do girls night," you know, I'm like, UGH. [Both laugh]

[00:47:59] Chris Angel Murphy
"I've been doing that for 35 years. [Kyl laughs] I'm bored of it, let's do something different." [both laughing]

[00:48:04] Dr. Kyl Myers
Oh, no. So, so- it's a- it's a- it's a work in progress. You know, like, this is going to be a lifelong journey for me. But I think what's been really exciting, is, like, in applying for these new jobs, like I get to be who I want to be, right? Because I had had this experience of when I started my last job, I was a cisgender woman, like, she/her pronouns, you know? And then to kind of go through this gender journey in that space, you know, it, and like, I'm introducing- I'm like, I use they/them pronouns, whenever we're, you know, when- whenever we were in those kinds of spaces. But it just, like, I just feel like everybody saw me as like the Kyl of 2016, you know, who got that job. And so it just feels so cool when I'm applying for a job, that it's like, "What's your gender?" And that I'm like, I'm clicking the other box, you know, like, I'm clicking the other box. And- and I don't think that that's the totally appropriate way that we should be asking people about gender who are nonbinary, but-

[00:49:03] Chris Angel Murphy
Right, right, othering.

[00:49:05] Dr. Kyl Myers
I'm- this is me, like, I'm showing up and, like, I am going to- I'm really excited that this next generation of my career, this new chapter, they will all be meeting me as like the genderqueer person that I am and that feels really, really exciting.

[00:49:22] Chris Angel Murphy
When you were talking about having someone use they/them pronouns for you, in front of you, it reminds me of times, I've felt super validated when I've overheard by chance, like, someone correcting someone else when it comes to my pronouns or something like that, right? Where it's like you hope that people are doing the right thing when you're not within earshot. And just so freaking validating. There's just different ways that you can explore gender and it doesn't have to mean anything other than you're Kyl and that's what you feel like doing.

[00:49:52] Dr. Kyl Myers
Mhm mhmm.

[00:49:53] Chris Angel Murphy
We've talked about allyship throughout in different ways. And, you know, sometimes we can make mistakes. Is there a time that you wished you had done a better job of practicing allyship? And I'm wondering, what do you do differently now as a result of that?

[00:50:11] Dr. Kyl Myers
By no means am I perfect, I'm definitely a work in progress. And I do try, like, in my- in my real-life interactions, like when people are saying things like, I do think I do a really good job like showing up and being, like, "no, no, no, like, we're- like, we don't say "tranny," we don't say "hermaphrodite" anymore." Like- like- like, I think that I pop in and try to, like, defuse the situation and- and provide, right? Like some- some information. And that's been really- I'm happy to do that.

[00:50:43] Dr. Kyl Myers
One space that I feel in- more insecure about in my allyship is online. And I think part of it is, it just feels really big. Like, it feels like this really big responsibility. And I- and I'm so spread thin, that I think that sometimes I might not show up, because I don't have the time to, like, read what I need to read to understand the issue to feel like I am taking a good stance on it, like, online. And so that's something that I think I feel a little bit insecure about is, I have this platform, and- but I don't show up for every single twittering trending, you know, big fight, you know?

[00:51:27] Dr. Kyl Myers
And I think part of it could come into the fact that like my PhD training, right? Like, you are trained not to say anything that may be untrue. You are trained to feel like you understand, you know, like, the information before you form an evidence-based opinion and start talking about it. So, I think that that's kind of a downside of academic training, is that I'm really cautious about what I say, because I want to make sure that it's true. I don't get involved as often online as like, maybe I should. But, I also want to be kind of compassionate to myself of like "yeah well, you're not doing that for a reason." But like, I haven't had time to watch the Dave Chappelle comedy thing, and not that I want to, right? Like, I don't want to give that an extra viewing. But also, I don't have the bandwidth to, like, make a statement on something and then deal with 13,000 people telling me whether they agree with me or not and then engaging in that. And so I think that that's a place that I feel like, there's room for improvement, but at the same time, like, how do you do that? How do you pick what fights you show up for and what you don't, you know?

[00:52:34] Dr. Kyl Myers
So I'm constantly trying to like, share, you know, like, you know, bills, you know, that are coming up in Texas and you know, trying to help people like, "this is what you need to do to contact your [Kyl laughs] representative" and stuff, but it's really overwhelming. And I haven't figured it out. I haven't like cracked the code on how to be. Is there any such thing as like, the perfect online ally, you know, for all of these issues? Especially when, like, I'm not necessarily an ally in these situations, like, I'm also someone who's- I'm like, the population that's affected by this, you know? So it's just... I haven't- I haven't found that balance that doesn't leave me like extraordinarily depleted or- or fighting, you know, with people. So, I want to figure that out, like, so if you have any tips, [Kyl laughs] let me know.

[00:53:30] Dr. Kyl Myers
But I also feel really strongly about understanding the issue and being able to actually be more helpful and not just jumping on something, you know, that's my struggle. I wonder if people think because I haven't posted about it, I don't think about it or that I'm like being complicit in it. When it's like, people don't know all of the things that I do in my own life. They don't know what emails I'm sending to governors. They don't know what meetings I'm setting up. They don't know who I'm donating to. And because I'm not a total performative advocate, you know? I'm not like posting my receipts of all of my donations on my Instagram and stuff and so. So I-yeah, I think my insecurity comes from like, just because I'm not showing up on Instagram with this doesn't mean I'm not doing the work. But I think that there is this assumption that you're not doing the work unless you're posting about it on social media, you know? And so that's kind of just- it's prob- it's a problem in, you know? But I'm also just kind of trying to get back a- like, some privacy and some boundaries and- and I have noticed that if I'm not posting, then I'm not on Instagram as much, and that my mental health is actually better. And I'm more present for my family and in my work. I don't like that social media has become this, like, metric for how good of a social justice advocate you are, because I don't think that that's fair. Because you can also post a lot of lip service and you're not actually emailing the governor. You know? [Kyl laughs] So, you can not say something.

[00:55:11] Chris Angel Murphy
What's one allyship tip you'd like for everyone listening to consider?

[00:55:16] Dr. Kyl Myers
Can it be a two-part tip? [Kyl laughs]

[00:55:19] Chris Angel Murphy
Sure, people cheat. They shove sh-stuff in.

[00:55:24] Dr. Kyl Myers
My tip is really, you've not arrived in knowing everything there is to know. There's something to learn every single day. And so I think that it's really important to stay hungry for information and humble, right? That especially around gender and sexuality, this is an ever-evolving journey. And we have to stay open to learning and evolving. Read the articles, right? Listen to the podcasts. If you hear a word you don't know, look it up. Try to change it in your vocabulary. I think that that's really critical [Kyl laughs] to be this like, in continuing education, right? And be a lifelong learner when it comes to this. But my caveat to that is, I just want people to be so hungry for knowledge, but not zap, right? The- the- the community of like," teach me, I want to know, so it's your job to teach me." Like, before you send me a really long message, can you just read my book? Or could you know, can you borrow it from the library? Can you go and listen to some podcasts? Like, that is something that I just want more people to know of- we're so happy that you're excited about learning about this. You've got to do some self-directed educating and by all means, if you feel like you've done it all, and you've got a lingering question, please, you know, please ask. But you've got to keep learning and you can't expect marginalized communities to be your professor. [Kyl laughs] Read, go- go scroll through their Instagram. Scroll through their Twitter. Click on the links they're posting, you know? Read the books they're suggesting, because we're so tired.

[00:57:06] Chris Angel Murphy
And pay them.

[00:57:06] Dr. Kyl Myers
We're so happy you're here. Yeah, and totally! Like, and pay them. Tip them, right? Like, the unpaid labor of this community is criminal.

[00:57:20] Chris Angel Murphy
And now some self-reflection questions for deepening your learning.

Do I have permission to share my kid’s LGBTQ+ identity with others?
If I don’t have permission, how can I still seek out support without potentially outing them?
If my friends have kids who are part of the LGBTQ+ community, do I make space for other topics? Do I know what they want to talk about?
Do I unintentionally box people around me into binaries through my questions, statements, activities, and gifts?
Do I give people around me the space to grow and explore their genders? Do I do the same for myself?
Are there gender norms of my gender that I conform to that feel good for me? Can I give myself permission to enjoy what feels good?
Do I learn from marginalized or underrepresented educators? Do I pay them and/or generally support their work?

[00:58:42] Chris Angel Murphy
Visit AllyshipIsAVerb.com for any resources and a full transcript of the episode. And remember, sometimes allyship means self-directed learning.