[00:00:17] Chris Angel Murphy

Well, hello there. This is Allyship is a Verb, a podcast exploring intersectional LGBTQ+ allyship. I'm Chris Angel, my pronouns are they/them, and I've got a special episode for you today.

[00:00:38] Rick Grant-Coons

Hi, my name is Rick Grant-Coons and my pronouns are he, him, and his.

[00:00:43] Chris Angel Murphy

Question. Have you ever interviewed your own therapist? Well, that's exactly what I'm doing for this episode. [Chris Angel laughs] I'm interviewing my former therapist from over a decade ago, owner of Empowered Living Therapy. Rick is a Sacramento, California based clinical psychologists, actor, speaker, and traveler. He specializes in sexuality, gender identity, and suicide prevention. Dr. Grant-Coons received his Master's in clinical psychology from Antioch University with a specialization in LGBTQ affirmative therapy. He also completed his doctorate in clinical psychology from the California School of Professional Psychology in Los Angeles. He's worked and trained at various places, including AIDS Project Los Angeles, the Los Angeles LGBT Center, Los Angeles' Children's Hospital - High Risk Youth Program, and Didi Hirsch Mental Health Services - Suicide Prevention Center.

[00:02:36] Chris Angel Murphy

You identify as gay, male, white, and a psychologist. Can you share what those identities mean to you?

[00:02:46] Rick Grant-Coons

Yes, male I'll start with because it was a early part of my life where I start to explore that identity, because it was brought to my attention. I remember exactly in first grade that I was not following the rules correctly as a male boy. And it was- that is when it became really tough. I think there was a time of innocence right before that. So where I had no conception, I just had fun. And you know, I was just a carefree child and then a particular school in Kentucky, where they, you know, very rural farm community, let me know very quickly that I was not like everyone else. And from that point on, I had to struggle with how to be appropriate in my gender, and you know, gravitated toward girls, they just, you know, were the ones to accept me and they like doing the things I like to do. So, that was also very confusing as to why I was gravitating and naturally liking stuff that we're supposed to be forbidden from me and couldn't understand why and why I had to sneak into the toy store and try to buy the Barbie behind my mom's back because I knew she was going to be enraged. But she caught me by the way, and she allowed me to get the She-Ra doll instead because she thought that was more butch. [Rick laughs]

[00:04:07] Chris Angel Murphy

Wow. [Chris Angel laughs] Wow.

[00:04:10] Rick Grant-Coons

So yeah, so the gender relationship, I would say like it's kind of a color for it. I would say race and privilege and all of that, I think came a little later, even though like gender was confusing growing up, there was still a mixture of white and black kids in particular in the South and the rural south and there was something equalizing about that, like, and my I think my parents too just gave me a very accepting and integrated understanding of who people are, and that race is a part of them that you accept. And so didn't have a lot of well- awareness of any kind of racism that I was absorbing in some way, because it wasn't overt it wasn't- and so I'm grateful for that- but totally, especially in my graduate studies, really far more appreciating privilege and the things that I'm like, "oh yeah, I never did have to think about that" or, "Oh yeah, I didn't have to worry about that" and understanding that there's a great opportunity and a great role for me to play in making a positive impact in that area. You know, since I do have such desire and and love for equality when it comes to how anyone is and how anyone grows up with a particular race.

[00:05:30] Rick Grant-Coons

And psychologist was what I think really helped me most in life to get to a healthy balanced place because you know, before that journey, it was my own exploration of my own mental health and mental health needs that introduced me to that world and it was a you know, a support group that I was like, I had never experienced that kind of environment before- where you just get a group of people together that are all there in pain for the same thing. And so they all have way more understanding and quick empathy for others that they know are experiencing something similar, so we can all be there. And when the whole attitude when the whole spirit of the place is to help and heal and just accept, that's such a you know- it's such a- in some ways magical and powerful room, because it allows for conversations and a sense of safety that don't often happen and had never happened to that level for me. So that is what got me inspired me to say "Hey, I want to keep doing this kind of room," you know, "I want to keep creating this kind of space" and so that got me interested in pursuing psychology and starting that journey there and going to school for a very long time, [Both laugh] way longer than- I don't- I mean at the time I was like, "sure, six years that will fly by."

[00:06:56] Chris Angel Murphy

[Both laugh] Right.

[00:06:57] Rick Grant-Coons

I think getting to the end of it and going "I never want to be in school that long again." But, that all that entire long journey though was necessary to go from where I was to being prepared to do this for others and that requires a lot of self-work and and doing it successfully so that you can also play that role for others in a way that actually truly is helpful to them, because you get yourself out of your way. So, I think it's far and foremost the thing that has gotten me to where I'm at today career-wise, where I'm at with my my relationships, and my marriage, and just how, you know, life came together in a way where now I can feel like I'm not wanting of anything. I'm not, you know, of course wanting for things, but I'm not like you know, in scarcity, you know, feeling like I don't have enough or, you know, I'm in some way lacking. It's more like, you know what, "yay, I'm here, I'm good. I'm going to enjoy it," cause you never know how long you're going to get it for and just try to do the best I can and every day with it.

[00:07:59] Chris Angel Murphy

I'm wondering, was there anything else you wanted to say specific to your gay identity?

[00:08:05] Rick Grant-Coons

Oh, yes, yes, yes. That was a very painful journey to begin with because for several layers. Because, you know, it started with gender, and gender got associated with sexuality pretty soon after that. But at first grade, you don't have- or I didn't have an understanding of what sexuality was, you know, it was put on me. You know, it was put on me to say like "You are this and you don't want to be this" and "if you do this, then it's then it's going to become-" it wasn't just like "you act too much like a little girl and you were feminine," at a certain point is starting to turn to "and you're going to do these things sexually that make you so horrible."

[00:08:43] Chris Angel Murphy

Wow.

[00:08:43] Rick Grant-Coons

And so when that started, you know that, probably around more puberty and stuff, but even you know even before that, just the words that you were called at that time were so sexualized, you know? When it comes when it comes to the insults, that someone can slur at you, you know, it becomes very sexually violent, I would say. When it comes to how to socialize boys to be appropriate and if you step out of this very rigid boundary, then you're met with, I mean, literal violence and verbal violence and sexual violence until you get back in line and you "act right." But, I was not quite good at that because I tried. [Both laugh] I tried really hard, you know, and played the football and played the baseball and really tried and dated the girls you know, we're talking like elementary school, junior high, and really trying to make it work. But, I just couldn't. I mean- I am an actor now, you know, in my- in my spare time outside of work, and I love it. But, I could not act that role [Both laugh] and convince anyone of anything. And so, for me, when it became connected, I remember was a walk home from the bus stop and it was just this thought it was just this thought in my head of "I am gay." You know, it's just this bubble- like, it wasn't even something I consciously thought of, it was like a bubbling up from some awareness where it just stopped me, you know, in my tracks. And then, you know, everything that meant at the time. Because, you know, I- it was junior high, it was also the '80s. So, I grew up with the awareness, since the beginning I ever had that awareness, that being gay meant HIV AIDS, you know? Like I- that never, there was never a time for my consciousness where that was not true, you know, and so I grew up not only with the stereotypes of, of how "sexually deviant" that is, and how "sinful" that was, because a lot of religious intolerance around being gay and feminine where I was growing up as well, but also now that this is, you know, "dirty," and you will die, you know? Like very soon and horribly and all of that.

[00:10:54] Rick Grant-Coons

So, that's what I was trying to wrap my head around about realizing that I was attracted to boys and men, as I'm trying to, you know, when I'm first experiencing attraction ever, and just how do you wrap your head around that, you know? And there's no like safety at home that other marginalized groups can have where you go home, and you're like, "oh, you're all like me, you all get it," and you have, hopefully some protection there. Whereas, you know, someone like me, not even my- my family, or my parents were on my side, if you will. You know, and to their credit, they really just had no idea what to do. They had never- they were also succumbed by all the messaging and all the homophobia and heterosexism that you absorb in the '70s and '80s. And didn't know what to do with the little gay child, you know? So, they just didn't know how to be there. And I hid it from them, you know? I wasn't going to tell them, because I knew that they weren't going to be able to protect me from that, because they were also those that were telling me the message of this is not okay, you know? And so through that, though, I mean, because attraction's strong, I mean, you tell anyone to not be attracted to something and good luck, you know? [Both laugh] When someone says "how you know you're gay?" And it's like, "well, how did you know you're straight? or how did you know you're anything?" You know, it just kind of tells you what you are. And so what saved me though, was finding something I was good at, and something I could be appreciated for. And it first was in the- in the world of gymnastics, and you know, I was pretty decent at that at a young age and knew I could excel. So, that's where I learned the lesson of excelling. And then I found theater shortly after that, and that's where I found the community of acceptance, and that you could be any weird thing you could be and there was a place for you here. And that was a really healing message to hear that I could be okay there. And that, you know, first time I'd ever really felt anything like that. So, I think those are the things that saved me during that and told me that it would be all right to be authentic.

[00:13:02] Rick Grant-Coons

Even though there still wasn't like a lot of examples, it wasn't like, there was a lot of like, "hey, there's so many people like me," there's- you know, you recognize them through hints, right? But it wasn't like internet or the- what I was seeing on television at the time. I think I remember seeing Norm from the Real World one in New York City in the early '90s. And that was the first real representation of a gay man that I think I'd ever seen. You know, I mean, maybe had seen movies or especially bad stereotypes, of course, but I'd never seen like, who was a real gay person in my life. I-there were gay people in my life, like in real life, but I either didn't recognize it at the time or couldn't recognize it at the time, but now in hindsight and being able to talk to them as I grew up in, you know, just had a- now I have a very different appreciation understanding of who they were in my life. But you know, as far as like, recognizing anyone was gay, it was it was kind of like early '90s where that occurred. And through theater probably and through moving around a lot.

[00:14:10] Rick Grant-Coons

[Rick laughs] I think that's an interesting part of my development is that I was constantly picking up and moving every year to three years and my family you know, my family of six were like this little traveling tribe of going to where we had to go at that time for either work or you know, other circumstances. And it was between Massachusetts in the south like Tennessee area, mostly. And so two contrasting cultures and bouncing around. Very, you know, I- the first year, anywhere, was always the worst. The second year got a little better. And the third year, I'd actually felt like I created a place where I'd want to stay, you know? And had friends it was more to even- if I hadn't been out yet, or, you know, I wasn't identifying as being gay yet. It was an experience where I'm like, "Okay, people are starting to get me. All right, you know? I can have some really close friends," and then uproot. Move. Start somewhere new for another one year of hell. So, that happened 13 times before college. And so I think what, although how that was helpful is that it didn't prevent me from coming out for fear of losing everything I'd always had, you know? I didn't have a sense of like, "Oh, this person I've known since birth, you know, is going to reject me," except for family, of course. But, as far as like peers in school, it didn't take as much for me to say, "No, this is who I am," because they barely knew me anyway [Rick laughs], for the, you know, the two years I'd been there.

[00:15:39] Rick Grant-Coons

But it was Tennessee, I was 16, I came out. And they experience I learned there was that before I came out, people had ammo to use against me always, because of a secret that I'm hiding and wasn't owning. And then the moment I came out, I became everyone's best friend. And you know, the, the bullies like, went away, because they had nothing to- and I also had some really, at that point, really great male straight friends. Either through theater or whatever, that knew how to "talk male," and then therefore, could shield me [Rick laughs] from some of the bullying that was happening at that time. And because I was out, and you know, and the girls at that time, loved having a gay best friend, you know? And it was around that shift- there was a weird shift, right? In the early '90s, where there was a tilt between "absolutely not" to, "Huh, you know? Isn't this? You know, oh, we're recognizing this, this is this is something that is happening in places, and oh look, it's happening here." So, I was the first one ever out at that school. And so that's when I learned a quick lesson of how there is power in acceptance. And when you accept who you are, and you don't let anyone use your authenticity against you, then you have a lot of power, and you have a lot of joy in the relationships that you can create. And so I think that was the time right before, you know, high school right before college, where I had a very positive, much more healthy relationship with my gay identity. And you know, from there could really build up until today, a much more, you know, realized person that identifies as, as a gay man, you know, living today.

[00:17:29] Chris Angel Murphy

You practice and were trained in LGBTQ affirmative therapy.

[00:17:35] Rick Grant-Coons

Mhm. Mhm.

[00:17:30] Chris Angel Murphy

How would you describe that?

[00:17:36] Rick Grant-Coons

What I really enjoy about identifying as that and and doing the work from that approach is that it's not anything that's like a manualized, "Like, this is how you do therapy for [Chris Angel laughs] for LGBTQI+ people," you know? Like, it's not, it has nothing to do with anything like that, per se, where they're like, "Here's some skills, here are some tools," but I incorporated it very easily because it's really just a set of values [Rick laughs], and really some common values that are not a stretch for what or for how effective this can be for people. And you know, just like we find that having this kind of identity is something to not only be accepted but celebrated. And also what I like about it, too, is that it accepts that it has a bias. And it says we have a bias in this approach that we believe that LGBTQI+ people should be celebrated and that we're pushing back intentionally because there ha- there has been so much internalized homophobia and heterosexism absorbed from the culture that we can't spend time being neutral. We can't spend the time in the world of just "what do you think about that?" And, you know, "let's explore both sides." It's like, No, you've been overwhelmingly absorbing this toxic negative message that's very deadly."

[00:18:58] Rick Grant-Coons

"So, we need to push back with a very strong counter message of how- how much a celebration, how much your identity is something that has worth and value and importance and let's- let's start to integrate that messaging very quickly." Because there's so much that the self-hate and the and the self-shame- how much that impacts you, you know? Physically, mentally, I mean, in so many arenas it pops up. And what it's allowed me also to do is that it's such a human component, this internalized shame, and internalized self-hatred, whatever form it looks like, that these skills are just helpful to anyone that is being impacted and suffering from that kind of self-attack, which only slows you down. Only gets in your way. And a lot of what this work is is just identifying what that is trying to say, "Hey, let's get this out of your way and not feed it. Not give it any power. Let not- not believe in it just because it's a belief that you have but, to be able to challenge it- replace it with something far better, and just really enjoy your life to the fullest." And I think that's really at the heart of what the work looks like with other tools at hand to help with all kinds of other things along the way.

[00:20:16] Chris Angel Murphy

Dang, that's a lot. [Both laugh] And I guess I'm wondering, at the time you were studying it-

[00:20:24] Rick Grant-Coons

Mhm

[00:20:24] Chris Angel Murphy

Was it a common specialization? And would you- do you believe that there are more programs that are available now, for those seeking that kind of approach?

[00:20:40] Rick Grant-Coons

Yeah. Well, I had the fortunate- fortunate opportunity to attend Antioch University in Los Angeles. And that was in 2005 and that was when I first was exploring, like, "how do you become a therapist?" And so, found this graduate program in Los Angeles and it originally, for me, was just, not just, but it was the traditional MFT route, the marriage and family therapy route. And you'd go to school, and then you do your hours and get your license there. So as I started that program, right then, Dr. Joy Turek and Doug Sadownick, who was a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, and he's a PhD in psychology- they were just beginning the first classes for this program of affirmative therapy. And so, of course, that piqued my interest. And I was like, "What is this?" And so they weren't planning on having this program launch until like, two months before I graduated. But I was like, "I am not going to be here, while you're creating all of this [Chris Angel laughs], and you know, just because of bad timing, I don't get to have [Rick laughs] this experience of becoming an affirmative therapist." Because of course, that's exactly what I need to do.

[00:21:51] Rick Grant-Coons

So, I got to do like a specialized focus, where it wasn't the traditional LGBTQ Affirmative Therapy program yet. But, all the classes that they were putting on at speed and trying out and creating the program, I took all of them, you know, I just was in any of those that could be and then created my own version of the specialization. And what they really impart, you know, beyond just like, here are the classes that you have to take- the spirit of what affirmative therapy is, and everything I just said before, you know, really that is, what everything in that program is rooted in to give you that perspective on how to, whatever modality you use, whether you know, it's suicide prevention, or CBT, DBT hypnotherapy, like teaching, whatever. Like, I've even done trainings on this for like elementary and high school teachers to integrate these values to their work, because it helps any- any style that you do, it's going to benefit from and look like affirmative therapy. So, that program gave me that foundation and any kind of training I did was at the LGBT Center in Los Angeles or AIDS Project Los Angeles, like anywhere where I could just work with the community and the queer community and get more experience in that way.

[00:23:13] Rick Grant-Coons

And then decided to continue on and do my doctorate and become a psychologist. And that program had a multicultural- was Lyon University at the California School of Professional Psychology, and they have a general program and then they have like a multicultural and community program. So I took- I consider that like the next level where it was not just my community, but it was multi-communities of the same kind of idea- can benefit from that type of affirmative approach. So, doing that and writing my, my doc project on that, and anything I could do to just continue to sharpen and specialize the affirmative therapy model. And so that's where it began. And then at the time when that- I think they were saying that there was nothing else like this in anywhere in any graduate program, but I think I'm hearing more and seeing more of this being integrated in all types of programs. Whether it's a- whether it's a focus or a specialization or whether it's just many more classes involved in whatever program, I do see it sprouting and growing in and hopefully more and more and more places like, oh- one just came to mind. There's a whole Affirmative Therapy Certification Program. Dr. Joe Kort is a part of it and the institute, the sexual institute that promotes it as well, they have it open to anybody and they can go and take a bunch of these classes if you're a therapist and get this kind of certification that makes you a certified affirmative therapist. So, now you see this available to- you don't have to go through graduate school to do it. But, now anybody can go and find these type of educational opportunities and integrate the same values into their own work.

[00:25:00] Chris Angel Murphy

That's really powerful too, because to your point, I mean, I don't know how many folks know this, but a lot of the helping professionals, especially when they're seeking licensure, they are required to take continuing education units or some variation of that.

[00:25:13] Rick Grant-Coons

Mhm

[00:25:13] Chris Angel Murphy

And you're lucky if maybe you can find some, you know, workshop or something and get like an hour or whatever.

[00:25:22] Rick Grant-Coons

Mhm

[00:25:22] Chris Angel Murphy

But yeah, that sounds like a really powerful program.

[00:25:26] Rick Grant-Coons

Mmhmm.

[00:25:26] Chris Angel Murphy

Something I learned in my social work programs, and I imagine maybe similar in related helping professional fields, is this idea that we want to focus on the client in front of us and their experiences.

[00:25:37] Rick Grant-Coons

Mmhmm.

[00:25:38] Chris Angel Murphy

We don't want to insert ourselves or make sessions about us, especially, you know, regardless of its if it's therapy, case management, you know, whatever. And when I was, in my own programs, I struggled with wondering if I could be both quote unquote, "professional," and also out as nonbinary, queer, and trans.

[00:25:56] Rick Grant-Coons

Yep.

[00:25:56] Chris Angel Murphy

Especially since my pronouns are they/them. So, I'm wondering, did your program that you sort of put together tackle this? And do you think it's important for psychologists and related fields to be open about who they are with potential clients?

[00:26:12] Rick Grant-Coons

Yeah, it's part of the traditional training to this whole idea of disclosure, and how much do you reveal about yourself as a therapist. And of course, in the very traditional sense of psychodynamic psychoanalytic therapy, it was always in the foundations of their boundaries to never share anything about yourself and be the blank slate. And for how to use someone's own projections that you as a neutral slate are reflecting back to them. So it's never about you, it's only about what they're projecting. You know, as valid as that approach can be, and people that can do that really well, that was not very natural for me, just as the way I wanted to authentically work.

[00:26:55] Rick Grant-Coons

More and more schools, especially more modern schools of therapy definitely have incorporated much more useful ways of disclosure, and that if disclosure is coming from a place that is first and foremost, in the best interests of the client, then it can be helpful. It's if it's really truly about yourself, and those- those moments come up, and you have to be able to catch them of like, "I just want to share this about myself." [Both laugh] You know, "I just wanted you to know this about myself," but it has nothing to do with helping them or anything that I mean maybe at worst, it's neutral, but it's not like meant for them to... Well, I guess it you know, it could be harmful if it's done incorrectly, but- but to you know, even- even as just a neutral thing, if it was just for you, and there wasn't a thought of like "wow, this, this is something that could improve our relationship or help them deal with this in some way," then you know, you shouldn't do it.

[00:27:49] Rick Grant-Coons

So, the use though of disclosure, especially with the affirmative therapy approach because it does talk to this about how we should disclose if it is in the best interest of the client, specially around sexuality and gender, so that we can demonstrate and model what a- an affirmative relationship with your sexuality and gender can look like, since there might not be many examples of that for the client. But also, there's impact on the relationship because the one thing you can't take out of the blank slate is the human element. We're in the room, we're not a blank slate. I mean, literally, we're not like a white screen that's going to reflect back all your projections. We were- we look a certain way. We bring race, we bring gender, we bring possibly sexuality, we bring everything about us into the room that's going to have an impact on the relationship.

[00:28:42] Rick Grant-Coons

So, we need to have some acknowledgment of that and maybe harnessing it as well to be useful to the work. And so, being able to show up and discuss and possibly disclose things that strengthen our bond to give me more of a humanness. I know that's been helpful at times with clients where I know they're struggling with something and me saying, "Oh, I get that because I've been there" allows them to go, "Ahh." You know, some relief that this is not a weird thing, a shameful thing that's only about them and how horrible they are for doing this. But it's like, "Oh, no, this is a human thing that lots of people, even my own therapist experiences, so it can't be that bad." You know, and if you can get that across with a simple "Oh, yeah, you know, I did that." [Both laugh] Possibly, that you know, that that's a very useful tool. Also, just like options out of things where if someone's stuck, and you're like, "Look, I've experienced that stuckness. This is what I did, and it was helpful," then great. If it works for them, great. It's not always going to work. You know, not everything works the same way or at all for everybody, but to have an option that maybe they hadn't considered; that can be useful as well. It's had a history. It's changed and evolved different types of therapeutic approaches deal with it differently where there's some adamant about not disclosing and others that maybe over-disclose. So, we need to find how to see this as a tool that can be useful. But it's also looked for the ways that it may not have a helpful impact and why not so that we can use it appropriately and use it in its most effective form.

[00:30:32] Chris Angel Murphy

Totally. And I think what's been interesting outside of not having a provider who's maybe had some sort of program in this or again- at least taken a workshop, just- just something anything. What do you think are some of the biggest barriers that LGBTQ+ community faces in seeking therapy? And do you have any suggestions on what could be done to remove those barriers? Because I'm thinking, again, outside of having an LGBTQ-affirming therapist, and whatever that can mean, because people can use that a little bit loosely or that they're friendly.

[00:31:08] Rick Grant-Coons

Sure, yep.

[00:31:09] Chris Angel Murphy

Which that could be a whole other episode- [Both laugh] breaking out what does that mean. Sometimes folks offer a sliding scale. I've also seen this, like, shift where there's a lot of providers not in network for insurance. And so I guess I'm just wondering what you're thinking around those barriers?

[00:31:30] Rick Grant-Coons

Well, I think though it- especially those- those last two, the insurance and who takes it who doesn't is part of one of the biggest obstacles to just therapy in general, but also especially for the the LGBTQI+ communities, is that how do you navigate this system that doesn't make accessing therapy easy or cost-effective? Because it is such a challenging and complicated system that- that prevents many people from even trying, because it just becomes too irritating to access therapy. With, you know, you can have insurance, but if you don't have the right insurance, because with therapists, too, like you have to apply for every single insurance panel that exists if you want to take everybody's insurance. And the more you take on, just the more cooks are in the kitchen when it comes to what you're providing and how much and what codes you're using and collecting and then hiring a biller to do it for you. Because you think you're going to do it yourself for a while and then it [Chris Angel laughs] becomes really irritating when you have to make all the calls throughout your day of "why was this denied?" Or, "What do you mean this?" Or, "Why do you need this?"- for you know, and just dealing with this whole other aspect of the work that's not why we trained. I didn't train to navigate the United States medical system to provide therapy, you know? It's just-

[00:32:58] Chris Angel Murphy

Right

[00:32:58] Rick Grant-Coons

There- there's a whole bigger conversation about what needs to happen there since it's not helpful compared to how other places, other countries provide it in a way that is more accessible. And the therapists not wanting to have to deal with that, so then they become just private pay and then that's a whole other barrier to people seeking out therapy, because you have to have that kind of cash to consistently see, you know? It's different than going to a specialist once and or twice and getting the information you need and then you're good. You know, with with therapy you are committing commonly to a relationship that meets weekly and that you have to pay for weekly. So maybe even closer to like if you were to hire a personal trainer for your physical exercise. I think it's similar more- now more similar to that model where, you know, you don't expect to use your health insurance with a personal trainer when you go to the gym and work out with them. But, you know, but it's also not considered necessarily a medical treatment. It's considered you know, healthcare. Healthcare in a way, but like you know, physical exercise, right? So it's not, of course, going to be covered.

[00:34:06] Rick Grant-Coons

But with therapy and mental health care, it's more similar now to that model where it's about coming to see someone and training and getting stronger and working on your mental fitness so that you can feel much more capable and strong in your own life. So, that's also a barrier when it comes to a physical personal trainer, right? Like there's not a lot of people that can do that as well because that's a very personalized service that costs more than what a lot of people have the budget for. So then, but, mental health care is not a luxury item. It's not something that- that's like well you know, if you can afford it, you know, get that boat, you know, like it's-

[00:34:49] Chris Angel Murphy

Right [Both laugh]

[00:34:49] Rick Grant-Coons

not that kind of service or product. So it needs to be something that everyone can access. It's because everyone is affected by it and everyone's life is obstructed and weighed down by problematic mental health. So, everyone benefits in every community if everyone has access to improving their state of mind and how they navigate the world. So you have this- this conflict of this- there's a need that everyone should be able to access because it is so vital, with no way of really getting access to it unless you have privilege, unless you have money, unless you are fully employed, unless you have decent insurance. And not an HMO, you know, because if you have an HMO, you're- you can only look at those therapists and you can't get reimbursed any other way. You know, so-

[00:35:37] Chris Angel Murphy

Yup

[00:35:37] Rick Grant-Coons

It's such a macro-level issue that it's hard to figure out everything that needs to happen and everything that's in the way of that happening, for mental health to be available. But I think as a personal provider, especially since I'm starting to like the relationship with my- my two insurance companies less and less, I want to be able to still work in a way that I enjoy the work, but be able to continue to provide it in a way that I feel is fair and can sustain me and all of that. And how do you strike that balance? And I think personally, I think I can get to a point where I can achieve that, that I feel personally comfortable with. And will touch the specific lives and the lives of their lives, you know, the people that I work with. But, as a overall problem, that is harder to figure out how much of anything I can do to really make a dent on- on that challenge.

[00:36:40] Chris Angel Murphy

Yeah, there's a lot there. [Rick laughs] That was a big question I threw at you. [Both laugh]

[00:36:43] Rick Grant-Coons

Yeah, right?

[00:36:45] Chris Angel Murphy

Switching gears a little bit. I'm wondering, can you share about one time that you felt truly supported by someone and what they did to show up for you?

[00:36:56] Rick Grant-Coons

[Rick laughs] Wow, well, I'm thinking- I go immediately back to Ms. Gardner, who was a music teacher in that school in Kentucky. And in that hellscape that was first through third grade, in Kentucky, the music teacher was the only teacher there that showed up in a way that- what showed kindness that showed acceptance. You know, she was the only mirror for that in that whole place. And it was such a lifeline. You know, having truly such a lifeline, because I didn't have any other contradiction. I didn't have any other exception to that rule of intense rejection and hatred. And then you have this one woman that recognizes that you love music, too, and that you can carry a note and then decides to give you a solo, you know, in the Christmas pageant, [Chris Angel laughs] and then gives you a solo in the talent show, which I won. [Both laugh]

[00:37:54] Chris Angel Murphy

Wow. I love that you had to throw that in there.

[00:37:54] Rick Grant-Coons

I did, I'm still very proud of that. I killed it. [Chris Angel laughs] And everyone in that school that was ever hateful got to see me win first place singing a solo and doing a little gymnastics. [Chris Angel laughs] That- that was really the thing for that talent show, is that I threw a couple of like forward or backward rolls or- I don't know what it was, but it slayed. [Both laugh] So yeah, I think maybe that was second grade. Won that talent show, felt pretty good about myself. But yeah, that boom! You know, that was the experience she gave me that I got to internalize. That what a dose of, you know, what an immunization to [Rick laughs] hatred at that time- was a- was a strong boost of that. So you know, vaccines work, even metaphorically. [Chris Angel laughs] And so it gave me everything I needed to have some internalized positive self-perception of myself that could endure. And that got me through. And so, I think that was the first and one of the most important forms of support I ever received.

[00:38:56] Chris Angel Murphy

Part of allyship is recognizing that we can make mistakes, which can be quite humbling.

[00:39:03] Rick Grant-Coons

Mhm.

[00:39:03] Chris Angel Murphy

I'm wondering, is there a time that you wished you had done a better job of practicing allyship? And what would you do differently now?

[00:39:12] Rick Grant-Coons

Yeah, well, what I thought of- what really came to me was, I remember how I was feeling during and [Rick laughs] and continue to feel during all discussions around equality, and equality on a national level. And I remember, like, when gay marriage was first getting talked about and discussions of, like, "well, let's take trans people out of the equation so that we can get our rights. And then you know, we'll go back for you," [Rick laughs] you know, kind of thing.

[00:39:42] Chris Angel Murphy

Sure [sarcastically].

[00:39:43] Rick Grant-Coons

You know what I mean? And it's like, on one hand, I was like, at the time, like really wanting to see this type of progression when it came to, you know, for many of the reasons I've discussed before- of the kind of national recognition acceptance of gay and lesbian people specifically. And recognizing that there was a fear that if transgender people, who are completely treated worse and continue to be treated worse, especially trans women of color, and just how in-humanized groups of people are still being treated to this day. And thinking, "well, that could hurt or harm the effort of achieving this type of progress. So, let's just achieve it. Now. Let's just get it done. And then we'll come back." And now looking back and realizing and feeling the fear that is part of that, but also the lack of support and empathy to recognize what you're communicating to a group of people to say, like, "you're not- not right now," you know, and any- any day of rights denied is, you know, what I mean? Like, it's- it's never acceptable, and how much more powerful it is to in a place of, you know, just much more of a place of power to say, "this is something we all demand, and we're going to continue to beat that drum of we demand this." And we're not going to be like, "you know, what, let's calm the drum down and step back and say, we'll take this, please. And that's cool, you know, we'll take it and, you know, we'll come back." Because oftentimes, people don't come back, as we have seen. We see people going forward, going, "we're good, you know, I'm comfortable,"

[00:41:28] Chris Angel Murphy

Right.

[00:41:29] Rick Grant-Coons

And all the other demonstrations that you're doing for things that are happening, whether it's police brutality, or whatever it is, to- to the trans and trans community of color, especially, that we say, "Oh, stop, you know, you're- you're being unreasonable because we got our marriage, and, you know, we don't have those problems that you have." And instead of saying, "I recognize that this is a form of oppression, and I've experienced oppression, and I don't wish this on anyone, so we need to connect and fight against these forces together," is really the only way forward. And the only way that's just justified for those that- why should they have to expend a lifetime of that kind of brutality? Because other groups are saying, you know, "we're achieving stuff, but not in your lifetime. In your lifetime, you got to continue to suffer. And maybe in the next generation, you know, they'll be cool, and they'll be where we are. But you guys now, you're just gonna have to suck it up and-and- and survive it." You know and that's not that's not okay for that person. That's not- that's too much to ask of any person to endure for their entire lifespan. And instead, we should all be fighting for them to say "no, they get to enjoy their lives, too." They get to receive love and acceptance, and, you know, justice for the life that they can have here now, and not deny them that, you know, or deny anyone now.

[00:43:04] Chris Angel Murphy

I'm wondering what are some maybe tips you might have for people seeking therapy? Especially those who are part of the community- to weed out providers who maybe aren't as experienced with this community, if that's important to them in a therapist or a therapeutic setting.

[00:43:23] Rick Grant-Coons

Yes. Well, hopefully, affirmative therapists know how to communicate in different ways how they're affirmative. So, there are certain things you can look for that could be some signs, like how they advertise their websites, their cards. If they say affirmative therapist. If they have flat rainbow flags, or any kind of flag, you know, that- that celebrates our community. Maybe identifies, you know, puts it out there, maybe they talk about their background. If you are at the point where you are going to meet them, where do you meet them? And if it's a private practice, do they have magazines that are from our communities talking about gay and gender topics? Or, you know, how is their room decorated? What do their intake forms say? Does it say, you know, name? And does it give you a few boxes for gender or a few boxes for sexuality? Or like my paperwork, I just have a blank line and I just say, you know, sexual identity, gender identity, pronouns. You know, just write them in. You know, because I'm not going to come up with enough boxes of [Chris Angel laughs] how all of this continues to evolve and ones that I'm not aware of, so you tell me. And so that there can be telltale signs there.

[00:44:37] Rick Grant-Coons

But, then I think most importantly, and I think this is true for any therapy is, how do you feel in the room with the person? And the idea that just because you're in front of a professional or a doctor or whatever title it is, we can have a tendency of assuming that because someone's in this role, that they're going to know better. And in some relationships, you know, if I'm going to go see a medical provider and I know nothing about anything, then I'm going to lean on their expertise to guide my decisions. But again, when we do psychotherapy, I'm working from a place where I trust that the client knows themselves best. So, I'm not going to try to expertise them out of knowing who they are. You know, and so that relationship is going to feel a little bit different.

[00:45:25] Rick Grant-Coons

So at your gut level, if you feel comfortable, if you feel like you can talk about anything and not worried about being judged by this person in front of you, then those are some good indications. And if you have any off sense or sense of just feeling like they don't get you or you don't quite understand where they're coming from, trust it. And that you don't have to go to the first person that you meet with, like, hav-schedule a few options. But again, barrier. Because if everyone charges something, or if everyone has a different insurance, or there's only one person with any type of experience around gender and sexuality that takes your insurance, then you don't have a lot of freedom and flexibility to shop around. So, you know, of course, that we have to acknowledge that's problematic. But, if you can, go with the person that comparatively you feel the best with. And then also, you know, how they- how what- how they speak, if they are communicating that they have ever heard of pronouns, and why that's important. Or, you know, or if they say things where they assume heterosexuality or they assume a certain kind of partner, and you're like, "Huh. I don't think you've done the work," you know, then-

[00:46:36] Chris Angel Murphy

Right.

[00:46:36] Rick Grant-Coons

Trust that and that's okay. And maybe you have a relationship with that therapist, you can talk about it, and maybe that works for you. Or, maybe you don't want to take the time to educate your therapist, [Both laugh] you want to go to a therapist that's already done the work totally, so. So, if you go through that, and you have a certain sense, trust yourself. And if you have a strong sense that this is someone you can at least start with and explore the work with, then go with it and see where it goes.

[00:47:01] Chris Angel Murphy

What's one allyship tip you'd like for everyone listening to consider?

[00:47:06] Rick Grant-Coons

Just trust that people know who they are best. They know themselves best and just believe that they can tell you who they are and that is the truth, right? Like, let people tell you who they are. And just believe, accept, celebrate, find out what works for them, and not try to define for them or tell them who they should be, what they are. How they're doing this wrong, you know, just instead just say, "Hey, I'm going to trust in you and I'm going to learn who you are by you telling me and that's how I will support you, and figure out how we all can navigate this world a little bit better."

[00:47:51] Chris Angel Murphy

Visit AllyshipIsAVerb.com for any resources and a full transcript of the episode. And remember, sometimes allyship means trusting that people know who they are.