[00:00:00] Charlie Ocean: Well, hello there. I'm Charlie Ocean, and my pronouns are they/them. Welcome to Allyship is a Verb, a podcast for people practicing allyship for the LGBTQ+ community and beyond!

[00:00:25] Sarah Gilbert: Hi, my name is Sarah Gilbert, and my pronouns are she, her, and hers.

[00:00:29] Charlie Ocean: I'm thrilled I get to introduce you to a longtime, dear friend of mine. Sarah is such a sweetheart and an incredible friend. Sarah has lots of adorable Sarahisms, some of which I will share later on in the conversation, which makes my heart happy.

What comes to mind first is how creative, kind, and smart she is. We've even collaborated on a few projects together, including training sessions. I'm pretty sure we're a few years shy of knowing each other for ten years. It's wild to think of who we were when we first met versus where we're at now in our lives.

We've been having parallel growth and healing experiences, which has been fun and neat to share. I think it's only help to keep our foundation strong versus growing apart, like what can happen with some friendships. Also, we've yet to have the chance to meet in person, but hopefully we can make it happen someday soon.

That said, thanks for your patience with the last two episodes being replays. I unexpectedly needed a mental health break, and while I didn't want to take it two episodes in a row, I'm glad I did. I will make up for the episodes at some point, but for now, let's dive into this one.

It is time for the first half of the self-reflection questions. Stay after the convo for three more.

1. Have I ever had an experience with a social worker? If so, how did it go?

2. When was the last time I took a mental health break? What does that look like for me?

3. How have I evolved as a human in the past few years?

And now, our conversation.

You are a mom, wife, friend, therapist, and queer human who's always evolving, and as a side note, I, because we're such good friends, (laughs) I audibly squealed when I read that last part for the first time, so just wanted to acknowledge that. What do those intersections mean to you?

[00:03:02] Sarah Gilbert: Yeah, I'm - first of all, I just want to say thank you so much for this conversation. I'm really excited to talk with you because you are one of my favorite humans on the planet.

[00:03:11] Charlie Ocean: It's mutual. Me to you, not me being my own favorite human on the planet, (laughs) just to clarify.

[00:03:17] Sarah Gilbert: Well, you know, you should love yourself too. Yeah, it's interesting. The intersection of those identities has been an evolving sort of experience, I would say, especially in the last several years. A lot of reflecting on the different priorities of different aspects of my identity.

Yeah, I guess that's really what I would say at this point, just that that's kind of the gist of the conversation today is that I think identities, how they intersect, what still feels aligned, what maybe no longer feels relevant, is an evolution. It's an evolving process. So, yeah.

[00:03:49] Charlie Ocean: I appreciate that. Thank you. And it's always interesting to me when I have, number one, any of my friends on, because that dynamic definitely adds a lot to the conversation, I feel.

[00:04:02] Sarah Gilbert: I bet, yeah.

[00:04:02] Charlie Ocean: Like in your case, you've been such a wonderful supporter of the podcast and you've listened to it before. So like, I imagine in some ways it's really fucking weird (laughs) to like be on.

[00:04:15] Sarah Gilbert: It is. (laughs) It's a little intimidating of like, "Oh, I'm cool enough to be here. Okay." (laughs)

[00:04:20] Charlie Ocean: Of course. You feel more comfortable in gay clubs and at drag events. You're also drawn to gender-bending and queer icons like Freddie Mercury and David Bowie. And I'm gonna say it right now, Sarah has to be like, one of the biggest fans ever of Freddie Mercury. So like, We're going to try really hard not to make it like, uh, just like a tribute to Freddie, the whole episode, (both laugh) because it can quickly spiral out of control.

[00:04:50] Sarah Gilbert: Yes.

[00:04:50] Charlie Ocean: So thinking about those pieces, looking back, do you see those moments as, like, early signs of your identity? And how have these people and events impacted your life?

[00:05:03] Sarah Gilbert: Yeah. Oh, I could talk for hours about that question. (both laugh) Just that piece.

[00:05:07] Charlie Ocean: Yeah.

[00:05:08] Sarah Gilbert: So, I'll try to reign it in. It's been a really interesting process. So, I have just been, I would say in the last year, in this reflective process of looking back at that and being like, "Oh, that's interesting. Maybe there's a different context for that?" Because I have, like, since the age of 11, I've been a fan of Queen when "Wayne's World" came out, and that's how I discovered them.

And I have always been really struck by both Freddie and, you know, like, early David Bowie's, just presence, of just being totally themselves, gender-bending, not conventional, not fitting into any boxes, and yet being totally powerful and amazing and impactful humans. I've always been really drawn to that, and I always just kind of historically looked at it as, "Okay, not only do these people make music that I like, but I'm just really, I'm in such awe that somebody can embody that much confidence and self-assuredness."

And I still think that that relates, right, I still view these people that way, but I'm also looking at it as, "Oh, okay." That's something kind of I've always wanted to achieve more of being - allowing the fullest expression of myself, rather than fitting into a box of what was expected of me, or what feels safe or comfortable.

So that's been an interesting experience. And especially, I remember being 18 when I was finally able to go out to a gay club to celebrate New Year's Eve with a couple of friends of mine, I think it was in Providence.

First of all, I was just excited to be able to go out to a club that was 18 and over and not 21 and over. (laughs)

[00:06:41] Charlie Ocean: Yeah.

[00:06:41] Sarah Gilbert: Also, I remember being there and being like, "Oh, this just feels really familiar and comfortable and just like a lovely place to be." It was a cool vibe. I'm now kind of looking at that a little bit differently because I just kind of thought that's how everybody feels (laughs) in gay clubs and spaces.

Like, "Oh, it's just fun for everybody. Everybody does this, right?"

[00:07:01] Charlie Ocean: And you're skipping over the direct quote I have from you of, "This is the best! This is so much better than gross, creepy, straight clubs and bars."

[00:07:10] Sarah Gilbert: Totally. (both laugh)

[00:07:10] Charlie Ocean: So we just needed to add that part in.

[00:07:13] Sarah Gilbert: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I mean, I've never been a huge club person anyway, but I've definitely had experiences in both worlds and I have consistently been skeeved out (laughs) by, like, straight bar or club spaces, where there's just, like, this creepy vibe that I'm just not interested in.

And when I've been in queer spaces, like gay clubs or drag shows, it's just a lot of joy and like embodiment of whatever makes you happy, whatever your thing is; I've just always been really loving that. It's been a very different experience for me for sure.

[00:07:48] Charlie Ocean: Something that happened recently was that you saw JVN, or Jonathan Van Ness, in Philly.

[00:07:57] Sarah Gilbert: Mm-hmm.

[00:07:57] Charlie Ocean: And you were telling me, in one of our friend hangs, about how it started and like kind of how like the show went. So, can you talk us through that, and like, especially the part around asking like, queer folks and then those practicing allyship to do like, specific things?

[00:08:17] Sarah Gilbert: Yeah, totally! Towards the start of the show, JVN asks, you know, who's in the audience, you know, clap if you're queer, clap if you're allies, and that sort of thing. And I caught myself wanting to kind of clap as, "as a queer person, but also feeling imposter syndrome of like, "Oh, I don't get to kind of put myself out there that way."

And not "put myself out there," like who's going to be staring at me? Like my two friends that I was with? But, other than that, I don't know. I just, I've been feeling a lot of imposter syndrome about allowing myself to claim that label. I have understood myself to be straight, pretty much my entire life.

So I know it was through a conversation with you actually last year, was it? We were doing the summer series, maybe?

[00:09:03] Charlie Ocean: Yeah, like, a few years ago now.

[00:09:05] Sarah Gilbert: Oh my gosh. Yeah, that. That's what kind of opened all of this up. So you're kind of to blame for all of this (both laugh) - in the best way - that I've been starting to kind of really think about, like, "Huh, you know, sometimes I am attracted to women."

And it's not just like, "Oh, that woman's pretty." There's like, "Oh, I, I would like to maybe go out on a date with that person." like, you know, there's been, I've been noticing that there's been more of a feeling that's been kind of interesting to think about. And also I've been noticing feeling uncertain about telling other people about that. Not that I'm expecting anybody in my life to be like, "Ugh, gross, what the hell?"

But just like, I think that there, for me, there's this imposter syndrome of, okay, at this point in my life, in my early 40s, I should have had it figured out by now, right? Like, especially being, you know, a therapist and supporting other people through exploring their identities. Why is it just dawning on me now that maybe I'm not 100 percent straight?

So, that's been the experience, that imposter syndrome of like, you know, "Do I get to use this word?" You know, it's not a shame-based thing at all; I'm pretty clear on that. (laughs) It's more about like, "Well, I should have figured this out like maybe when I was a teenager or in college."

[00:10:17] Charlie Ocean: Yeah, we'll come back to like the "it being my fault" thing because I have thoughts around that, (laughs) but like you had only more recently told me about a certain Peloton (Sarah laughs) instructor.

[00:10:28] Sarah Gilbert: Don't get started! (laughs)

[00:10:30] Charlie Ocean: Would you like to name her by name or shall we?

[00:10:32] Sarah Gilbert: No.

[00:10:33] Charlie Ocean: Okay.

[00:10:33] Sarah Gilbert: No No. (laughs) There is a Peloton instructor that I think is fun and pretty. We'll just leave it there.

[00:10:40] Charlie Ocean: (laughs) Yes.

I just imagine it as like a little kid going up to her going, "You're so fun and pretty." You know, like the most innocent, sweet thing. (Sarah laughs) That's how I'm picturing it in my head right now.

[00:10:54] Sarah Gilbert: Mm-hmm.

[00:10:55] Charlie Ocean: So (both laugh) continuing the thread of you being a therapist - and there's a lot to dive into there - it's something that, I have another direct quote from you is, "I feel like I probably wouldn't have felt that was possible if I weren't doing this work and in such close proximity to others in the community. It's helped me to see it as possible for myself."

[00:11:16] Sarah Gilbert: Yeah, it's such an interesting conundrum in my head, right. There's two sides of this: how my therapist's identity - which, by the way, for years I have let that be way too much of my identity, I've let that take the primary role, to my detriment - that has both informed and facilitated my introspection about my own identity, but it's also, I think, hampered it in a way too, right.

Because when you're a therapist, If you are engaging in this work ethically (laughs) and doing it the right way, in my very strong opinion, it's not about you, right. Your work is supporting your clients with their self-actualization, whatever that looks like for them.

I happen to primarily work with the trans community, so of course we're talking about untangling from societal norms and familial norms, so there's a piece of me that's been able to - I've been so privileged to witness this joy and this absolutely amazing self-awareness and revelation that's come up for people. But also, because my therapy sessions with my clients aren't about me, it has also, I think, delayed or hampered my own reflection for a while; of allowing myself to look at my identity.

Like, especially when COVID first hit in early 2020, it was like almost tunnel vision of like, okay I have a job to do, (laughs) the world's on fire, I don't even have time to take care of myself really, I'm like taking care of my daughter, (laughs) doing the bare minim and like doing my work because people were in so much emotional intense pain.

So that's where I think it's an interesting relationship being a therapist and kind of having this experience.

[00:12:53] Charlie Ocean: Yeah. So diving even further into your identity as a therapist, and I relate to that because I've done the same thing with social work.

[00:13:02] Sarah Gilbert: Mm-hmm.

[00:13:03] Charlie Ocean: I've just like let that be my identity. And now I'm like, "No." (laughsz) Like, no.

[00:13:07] Sarah Gilbert: I know. I love that we've been on that journey together and be like, "That ain't it." Cause I think we share that, right. I think you and I both share that our experiences of what social work could be or what it represented when we were in school is now, we think about it very differently (laughs) than back then when we were in our programs.

[00:13:23] Charlie Ocean: Oh yeah. I don't even think I told you this yet, but I went to - I'll just say it, whatever, come at me - I went to Cal State LA for my bachelor's in social work. And I recently, and I'm so sorry to the professor in the class, I recently had a professor I've never even had, add me on LinkedIn. And he was like, "Oh, would you come and like, talk to my students about like, life after grad school?" and I was like, "Sure."

Big mistake for everyone. (laughs) That's like number one, I almost quit social work because of that fucking program at Cal State LA; it was so bad for me. And number two, I just, I don't think he knew what he was like signing up for in asking me to come speak to his, his students. Cause I didn't want to lie. Right. Like I'm sure -

[00:14:14] Sarah Gilbert: Yeah.

[00:14:15] Charlie Ocean: I don't know if you remember this in your program, but I was talking with another friend about it recently, and she was saying how, like, she'd have social workers come and be a guest speaker for her classes and they'd be all like bright-eyed and like, "Oh, it's so great. And you're going to do amazing things." And just felt like it was like false advertisement of how it really is. Like -

[00:14:34] Sarah Gilbert: Yeah.

[00:14:34] Charlie Ocean: "You know, you'll be in a manager position within like two years and blah, blah." You know, it took my friend like 10 years to get there and not for a lack of being brilliant and all of that, you know?

[00:14:44] Sarah Gilbert: Right. Oh, yeah.

[00:14:44] Charlie Ocean: So it just, there's a huge disconnect.

And so I feel like, why go and lie? (laughs) Or maybe that was, you know, that particular person's truth, but I was just real with them. Listen, first off, I had a very different talk prepared, because it was supposed to be for a policy class.

[00:15:00] Sarah Gilbert: Oh.

[00:15:00] Charlie Ocean: But when I asked them, because, you know, critical thinking, I was like, before I launch into something, "Are any of you actually like going into policy or whatever?" And it was just like crickets, right.

[00:15:12] Sarah Gilbert: That was smart to check that out. Vibe check, yeah. (laughs)

[00:15:15] Charlie Ocean: So I was like, "Cool, cool, cool. So this is a mandatory class." So then we went into like life after grad school and this is nothing against the professor, nothing against the students, but based on the questions they were asking me, I was like, "Wow, they're still not preparing students for life after school."

And this is a master's program now at Cal State LA. And so I had to remind them like, you know, you have career services, like use that. They have like mock interviews they can do with you. They can help you tailor your resume - there's all these sorts of things and I said, you know, I'm a non-traditional social worker, I'm a more macro-based one, but I've taken that to do other things. So I do more like community organizing and training and things like that and that's like more my wheelhouse.

And I said, "You know, y'all are lucky in that you've pursued this particular profession because it's such a generalist degree that you could be a therapist, you could do this, you could do that, like, there's so many options for you. So like, don't limit yourself."

Probably the most passionate plea I had for them was to advocate for themselves the way they might for, like, their constituents or the populations they're serving.

[00:16:21] Sarah Gilbert: Mm-hmm.

[00:16:22] Charlie Ocean: Negotiate your salaries, come in with numbers, like know your worth and understand that benefits are also part of it. Ask for benefits that would be good for you and remember, that's like part of the package, etc. But luckily the professor never just like shut the laptop closed and was like, "Okay, class, let's just pretend that never happened." But also they had just taken a quiz; (laughs) a lot was going on.

[00:16:43] Sarah Gilbert: Oh, there's a lot against you there. (laughs)

[00:16:45] Charlie Ocean: There was a lot going against me,. But, like, they were listening, and I think because I was so real and authentic, they appreciated it. I mean, luckily one of them added me on LinkedIn, it made me feel a little bit better.

[00:16:55] Sarah Gilbert: Nice.

[00:16:56] Charlie Ocean: Yeah, just after that I was like, "Oh no." I mean, I even made a joke halfway, like, "Your professor's probably regretting ever asking me to come here and talk to you about this stuff."

I didn't want to paint the profession as a shitshow, but like, I don't want to lie to them about the experience. And I gave them tips about like, how I handled things ten years ago when I first graduated from my masters program.

[00:17:18] Sarah Gilbert: Mm-hmm.

[00:17:18] Charlie Ocean: And I said, you know, there's not necessarily right or wrong ways to do things, but check out nearby programs. And I was able to pull some up, cause there's a lot of different universities, especially just in Southern California alone.

So when all of those like students are graduating, there's a bajillion more social workers (laughs) going into the world. So I was like, strategize, you know, maybe you take the lower paying job to start because it's like, a way in and then that way it's a lot easier to get a different job versus -

[00:17:46] Sarah Gilbert: Yeah.

[00:17:46] Charlie Ocean: Like, competing with all these other students also graduating.

So, I sent them some resources as far as other local programs that like - it's meant to be for their students, but it's public knowledge, so like they have their own job banks and stuff. I was like, "Take advantage of those. Who cares if you didn't pay for that program? It's social work. We should be sharing resources." (laughs) So -

[00:18:06] Sarah Gilbert: I agree. That's my mentality too. I think that's one of the things I, you know, why we're such good friends is people have that mentality of like, "If I know something that can be helpful to you, I will happily share that with you." There's no reason to hoard information or access to things.

[00:18:19] Charlie Ocean: Yeah. So I emailed the professor a bunch of links, including the one to like their career services and stuff. And I never heard back from him, and that's okay. That's probably best. (laughs)

[00:18:28] Sarah Gilbert: It's probably for the best.

[00:18:30] Charlie Ocean: It's honestly okay. (Sarah laughs) And like, I was very passionate about question our ethics, question what the profession says is "the right thing to do." Question white saviorism.

[00:18:44] Sarah Gilbert: Yes.

[00:18:45] Charlie Ocean: Have these conversations, especially while you're still in your program, and can, like, have this shared knowledge with, like, so many people being in this conversation with you.

[00:18:55] Sarah Gilbert: Yeah.

[00:18:55] Charlie Ocean: Don't be afraid to push back, because I wish I'd done more of that. Because now -

[00:18:58] Sarah Gilbert: Same.

[00:18:58] Charlie Ocean: I had explained since 2020, since you brought up, like, early pandemic, especially since the very public murdering of George Floyd, I've just been a lot more critical of social work; in ways that we perpetuate the same harms that we're attempting to protect our clients or patients or populations from.

[00:19:15] Sarah Gilbert: Yeah.

[00:19:15] Charlie Ocean: So it doesn't sit well with me anymore.

[00:19:18] Sarah Gilbert: Yeah.

[00:19:19] Charlie Ocean: This could be a whole other episode, but yes.

[00:19:21] Sarah Gilbert: I was - yes, (both laugh) we could do a whole other episode on this, yep.

[00:19:25] Charlie Ocean: So that said, yes, you working in a helping role definitely adds another layer of complexity to navigating identity.

[00:19:34] Sarah Gilbert: Yeah.

[00:19:35] Charlie Ocean: Because, in your words, "Put my own identity exploration on the back burner."

[00:19:41] Sarah Gilbert: Yeah.

[00:19:41] Charlie Ocean: Something I had asked you was if you ever feel like you see yourself or your experience mirrored in your clients?

[00:19:50] Sarah Gilbert: Yeah, I'm not caught off by that question now. I would say, "Yes." (Charlie laughs)

[00:19:54] Charlie Ocean: I wonder, maybe getting a little too deep with it, but I wonder if sometimes - because I don't know how you compartmentalize in order to like keep your sanity and all of that, whatever little we have left for both of us as you laugh. (both laugh) But I wonder if part of that was, if you compartmentalized in a way where you're like, "Oh, well, that's work talk. So like, I don't think about that really outside of like work."

[00:20:17] Sarah Gilbert: Yeah. Yeah. No, absolutely. That's a big part of it.

And I think this does tie into the conversation about the social work profession in general is, we are so clearly in really deep relationship with the people we're working with, our clients. I graduated in 2009 and even then there was still this mentality of almost like a blank slate, maybe a little less strict than that, but, "No, no, no, all the exploration is for that person, but you are separate of that."

And so I think that has really informed the compartmentalizing piece of like, "Okay, well, love that for them. That's beautiful. That's amazing. So happy for them." And I am not looking at anything about myself (laughs) or questioning anything, because I'm just trying to get through the day and do what I need to do.

And I will say, just as part of my own personal experience, compartmentalizing has been a really unfortunate byproduct of growing up in a really dysfunctional family, right. I had to compartmentalize to survive a very toxic family system. So, in a way, that's where my profession, I guess, is like, "Oh, okay, I have that skill. I got compartmentalization down pat, since I was like, you know, in middle school, so that works."

And, as I've been in private practice for now almost, almost a decade, (laughs) it's allowed me to kind of renegotiate how I show up as a therapist, and I think that's been really important in healing, but it has been still an evolving process of like, "Oh, okay, I don't have to adhere to rigid agency standards, and productivity standards, and show up as like I've got it all figured out and I'm perfect and there's nothing wrong with me here."

I get to be more human and still maintain appropriate boundaries, but I do get to be more human with my clients. And I think that that's just been an ongoing slow evolution of, I've just been questioning a lot of things, like, "Well, why can't I do this? Why can't I look at that?" Or allow myself to evolve and renegotiate different parts of my identity or say like, "Okay, well, you know, maybe that was true for a certain amount of time, but here in this moment, now this is true."

And that's okay, right. Because that's the acceptance I give my clients all the time of like, "Yeah, things are allowed to evolve and change." So I'm finally at a point of, I guess, allowing that for myself as well.

[00:22:31] Charlie Ocean: Right. And that goes back to our programs, because yours likely did that too, of this "we're supposed to be a blank slate," which is bullshit.

Especially once you go into like practice, you start to wonder how long these professors have been out of the field for, you know what I mean? And like, are just in academia because -

[00:22:49] Sarah Gilbert: Yes.

[00:22:50] Charlie Ocean: It actually is a good thing that there are people who can see me as a queer, or non binary, or neurodivergent social worker. It's a possibility model. And it probably helps to create a safer space for them, depending on whatever they may be working through. So the blank slate is bullshit.

[00:23:09] Sarah Gilbert: Yeah. And you bring up a really interesting point too, about who's in these programs, right. I remember in my program - and there's a lot of things I really appreciated about it, I learned a lot for sure - but when I was there, there was only one professor, that I know of that I had, that was actively in private practice while he was teaching.

So looking back on it, that's where the divide you talk about like academic kind of background versus actual practice. That's where the program was really lacking. I hope that's different now, but that really stands out to me as I think kind of part of the issue there of, okay, this is what a textbook says, but this is what you actually do with clients.

[00:23:47] Charlie Ocean: (laughs) Which, when I had an episode with a friend, Ra Ra, and we had a similar conversation as far as, as a gay Black man being in a program like that and learning from white professors, about white theorists, and working with white clients, and all that, right. And all the multitudes and layers of that.

Yeah, like I know they're probably still teaching about Freud and shit. It's like, we've disproven him how many times? Like, we've said he's wrong how many times about things, and yet when you're still talking about lifespan development, his ass is still coming up. Why?

Why do we continue talking about old, dead, like, white men that like, didn't get things right in the first place? It makes no sense.

[00:24:28] Sarah Gilbert: Yeah, it doesn't make any sense. And the other thing that doesn't make sense that is connected to this is, at least, you know, in the time that I went to the program that I went to, what was not promoted or encouraged was our own engagement in therapy and reflection.

It sounds like my program was a little different than yours in that at the time there was different tracks, so like I was specifically in a group work, like group therapy track, so it was more clinical in nature. And what was missing from that was, "Hey, you should probably be doing your own work on yourself at the same time."

I hope that programs have changed to include that now, but I don't know, because I'm, I'm old and I've been out of school for a long time. But - (laughs)

[00:25:06] Charlie Ocean: Oh my god.

[00:25:06] Sarah Gilbert: That's just, (Charlie laughs) that's now looking, you know, all these years back. I'm like, "Why wasn't that part of the program?" That would have helped me out so much. And yes, could I have found my own help back then to explore? (laughs) Absolutely.

And also if that was encouraged to me, it's like, "Hey, this is gonna help you be a better therapist, to do your own work and look at your own identity and explore who you are as a human and why you are the way you are." That would have been really helpful.

[00:25:31] Charlie Ocean: Yeah, I, in my master's program, took something called COPA, at the time it's undergone many iterations of its name, Community Organizing Planning Administration.

But in COPA, one of the ways they reinforced harm was in one of my, I don't know, let's say policy classes or something, they talked about how, of a dollar, that 80% should go to programs and 20% should go to things like overhead, including salaries. And at the time I just listened to them without questioning it because I was like, "Well, I'm at USC The University of Southern California is a really distinguished program."

You know, things like that. Now I think about that.

[00:26:10] Sarah Gilbert: You got more than the 20%.

[00:26:12] Charlie Ocean: Yeah. And so it's like, "Oh, so we're putting ourselves in a poverty cycle, because -"

[00:26:16] Sarah Gilbert: Yes!

[00:26:18] Charlie Ocean: Romanticizing (laughs) being overworked and underpaid is not it. I'm like, "Okay, but you need good people who are taken care of to run those programs and have them be amazing." So it's just, this isn't, this isn't working.

So I think there's a lot of ways nonprofits can be harmful in particular. I think an unfortunate reality to a degree, is that I think there's an awakening happening right now since COVID. I think just so many things are being broken open and being like, critiqued and all that.

I think it's good. I think it's good, because, again, kind of unfortunately, some of these like nonprofit programs or institutions are having to close down, because they're not getting the funding they once did. Part of that is like the economic situation of just -

[00:27:02] Sarah Gilbert: Yeah.

[00:27:02] Charlie Ocean: Whatever you want to blame it on. I think it's a multitude of things, but there's that piece. And then plus you have that corporate greed, right. Which is not helping things at all. (Sarah laughs)

But I think people are starting to wake up to the fact that nonprofits aren't perfect. They can mismanage money. In a lot of ways, I think there's a lot of nonprofit programs that are intending to uplift and support and empower certain communities. But they create more barriers.

[00:27:32] Sarah Gilbert: Yeah, totally.

[00:27:33] Charlie Ocean: That's why things like mutual aid have been getting so popular, because we're like cutting out the middle people.

[00:27:39] Sarah Gilbert: Mm-hmm.

[00:27:39] Charlie Ocean: We're just giving directly to those who are saying, " I need it."

[00:27:42] Sarah Gilbert: "I need it," yeah.

[00:27:43] Charlie Ocean: I have to pay my rent, I need this much money. And I think that's good.

And while I know sometimes people want to say, "Oh, well, like, how can you possibly know if these are legit or whatever?" It's like, if someone needs money and all you did was give like, five bucks or whatever, do you really care? Like, just trust that like it's going to the people who need it, otherwise, they wouldn't ask. And then you're perpetuating the same bullshit that nonprofits do of this like "deserving poor." It's not fair.

I recognize people are like, could be like, "Oh, well, you know, we want to make sure the right people are getting the funds to this program, or getting the right spots, or whatever. But again like If someone is in need, just help them. Why are you creating more barriers?

[00:28:22] Sarah Gilbert: Mm-hmm.

[00:28:23] Charlie Ocean: Why are you making them go through all these hoops to like apply for your services? So, that's why sometimes people don't go through all those hoops, is just because it ends up being a further burden on them and their situation.

Unfortunately, the impacts of this, again, are that we are starting to see, especially queer, or trans, nonprofits, either close, scale back services, merge; we're seeing all sorts of stuff right now. And I, I think that's gonna impact us. But I was talking with a friend recently who was making a joke about how sometimes it feels like we're just passing around the same $25 to whoever needs it the most (laughs) at the moment.

[00:29:03] Sarah Gilbert: Mm-hmm.

[00:29:03] Charlie Ocean: And I don't think that's a bad model, honestly.

[00:29:06] Sarah Gilbert: I don't either. Yeah. (laughs)

[00:29:06] Charlie Ocean: I'm glad that we're able to look out for each other in these ways, and go back to like, "our roots" in this way. Cause this is how we would support each other before. Like I've even started seeing posts from people saying, "Hey, here's what I'm willing to barter."

[00:29:24] Sarah Gilbert: Yes.

[00:29:25] Charlie Ocean: Here's what I'm looking for. Here's what I'm willing to give. And I'm just like, "Fuck yeah."

[00:29:29] Sarah Gilbert: Yeah. Community, right. Like that's the power of community that I think is so important.

[00:29:35] Charlie Ocean: Anyway, why am I going on these passionate monologues? I don't know, but thank you. (Sarah laughs)

[00:29:39] Sarah Gilbert: That's okay. Yeah.

[00:29:42] Charlie Ocean: Something that I've wondered about, for you, is - and we talked about it a little bit in private - just navigating the decision to come out, if you want to.

[00:29:53] Sarah Gilbert: Mm-hmm.

[00:29:54] Charlie Ocean: Because you and I both have told people ad nauseum they don't owe anyone their coming out, right.

[00:30:01] Sarah Gilbert: Yes.

[00:30:01] Charlie Ocean: And yet, you can have that little like, voice in your ear saying, "Come out, you have to come out."

[00:30:08] Sarah Gilbert: Yeah.

[00:30:08] Charlie Ocean: "Otherwise you're a fake and a phony and dah, dah, dah. And because all the work you do, you have to come out."

You and I have had a lot of conversations over the years, and this isn't something unique to us. It's come up in other conversations with friends too. Including recently of, "If I'm allegedly (laughs) a cisgender, straight, super ally, do I belong in this space of training and education and holding space for people who are in LGBTQ+ communities? Like, is that even okay?"

And I tell them all the time, like, "I can't tell you, I can't wave my magic spork and say like -" yeah, I have a titanium spork, it's a long story - but I can't just wave it and be like, "You have permission, dear ally, to do this work." Because, like, everyone's gonna feel differently.

You're gonna have people who are like, "No, the money needs to be given to, like, people in the LGBTQ+ communities directly.

[00:31:04] Sarah Gilbert: Totally.

[00:31:04] Charlie Ocean: And then you're gonna have other people who say, "Well, there's ethical ways you can do it where you make sure -" and you've done this - where you're donating to certain nonprofits.

[00:31:13] Sarah Gilbert: Mm-hmm.

[00:31:14] Charlie Ocean: You Intentionally work with people from the community and, and things like that. And you're open to feedback, etc.

But there's also gonna be people who literally don't give a shit and are happy that you're doing it, because they don't wanna do the work. So like -

[00:31:28] Sarah Gilbert: Yes, all of the things. (laughs)

[00:31:28] Charlie Ocean: There's never gonna be - yeah - there's never gonna be like a, a flow chart that will help you get to a place that you feel good about.

[00:31:36] Sarah Gilbert: Yeah.

[00:31:37] Charlie Ocean: Have you been feeling any pressure to decide if you're going to share this with loved ones? If you're going to share this with clients? If you're going to start sharing this when you're doing your training sessions?

[00:31:51] Sarah Gilbert: Yeah, it's interesting. I've actually already been doing that a little bit and just kind of seeing how that goes.

I mean, obviously years back, I, sort of talked about this awareness about this like - these feelings I was having about this Peloton instructor years ago (Charlie laughs) with my husband. And so it was such an interesting experience to like tell him that and then have him be like, "Okay." (laughs) You know there's no judgment, no shaming, just like "Hey, so I noticed this thing."

But that doesn't mean that it's been like a super easy process for me. Like even, and the reason why I lovingly, and jokingly, said I blame you for all of this (Charlie laughs) is when we were working on a training together and I wrote up like a little vignette about somebody. I kind of injected my own experience into this about this hypothetical situation where somebody was, I think middle aged and, like, having this awareness that their sexuality was maybe different than what they'd previously thought it was.

And I remember totally innocently you asking, like, "Oh, where did you come up with that idea?" And I just didn't even think about it. I was just like, "Oh, me?" And then I was like - (gasps) (Charlie laughs) " That just came out of my mouth." It was one of those moments where, like, I didn't consciously mean to say it, but I said it, but also it was fine, because I, you know, you're a very close and trusted friend.

So, it's been this ongoing, like, that was almost like the ball started rolling of, "Okay, this is this thing that somebody else knows, and then what does it mean?" And it's still not something I'm 100 percent super settled on, but I will say that I have been - part of agreeing to this conversation in this podcast, this is me kind of pushing myself to, to continue this exploration and figure out what it means for me.

Because a lot of my own inner chatter has been imposter syndrome and like, "Well, does it even matter to say this to anybody if you are in a very stable, happy marriage, and like, you are not doing anything to change that?" And almost kind of like, what's the point of saying anything, right? I think what I ultimately land on is, why say anything, is because it's just me being more authentic about a different facet of my identity, just like I encourage everybody to do.

And recognize that it's not easy, but also, if I'm trying to support my clients in doing that, then I feel, okay, now that I know this thing about myself, it feels weird to not ever say it to anybody, and that's just my own process, right. Everybody's process is different. I am very much not a proponent of forcing people to come out; I don't think that that's a good, healthy approach. I think you come out with whatever information you want, when or if it feels safe or necessary. (laughs)

It's been an ongoing, really interesting process thinking about how I am limiting myself by what I think other people are going to say in response, you know? I know there are people out there who are not happy about the work that I do as a cisgender person doing trainings on the trans community. I acknowledge that. I see that viewpoint. I understand it. And I also feel like that has caused me to be nervous about some people being like, "Oh, look what Sarah's claiming now, just to try to like, be in this group."

At the end of the day, I just, I thought so much about this, and I know that this is actually what's true for me, that I know there's no ulterior motive, I'm not doing this to get a magic spork. Although, if that is an option, (Charlie laughs) you know, if I do get a magic spork for this, then like, I'm not gonna turn it down. (both laugh)

But, you know, I've just been really sitting with my own intention and just like my integrity about why I'm even having this conversation. Because I'm hoping that it might help somebody else to kind of realize, "Oh, okay, I don't have to have it all figured out and have a solid, concrete, never changing sense of self and identity at the age of like 20 or 25 or even 30."

[00:35:28] Charlie Ocean: Yeah, I got distracted for a second because I was like, "Let me pull up that vignette." (laughs) So I have it in front of me. Would you be okay with me reading it?

[00:35:38] Sarah Gilbert: Yeah, go for it. Yeah, I don't even remember what it was. I just remember that conversation. I was like, "Oh, I said the thing."

[00:35:43] Charlie Ocean: Yeah, I mean, just, just for shits and giggles. I don't know.

[00:35:46] Sarah Gilbert: Sure.

[00:35:47] Charlie Ocean: So it says - and it was in 2022 that we did this.

[00:35:51] Sarah Gilbert: Oh my gosh, almost two years ago.

[00:35:53] Charlie Ocean: So, yeah. Yeah, it's, it's wild.

(reads vignette) You're working with a client in her late 40s who's come to treatment with you for depression and anxiety. She's married to a man with two teen children and lives in a small conservative - (laughs) small conservative town. About six months into her work with her, she shares with you that she's struggling with anxiety about her sexuality, as she's feeling attraction to both men and women. She doesn't think this is valid because she didn't experience this as a teenager. (end of reading)

And then the questions are:

"How would you help this client explore her identity?"

"How do you affirm her experience?"

And the third is, "what are you curious about? What would you explore with the client to help determine how to best support her?"

[00:36:33] Sarah Gilbert: Mm-hmm.

[00:36:34] Charlie Ocean: Blast from the past.

[00:36:36] Sarah Gilbert: Yeah, seriously.

[00:36:38] Charlie Ocean: Sarah, I couldn't even tell you what led me to ask you that question because It could have easily been from any of the clients that you support, right?

[00:36:49] Sarah Gilbert: Yeah.

[00:36:49] Charlie Ocean: But I don't know why, something was just like, "Ask Sarah about that vignette." Cause I don't think I asked you about any of the others or whatever, but like that one, I paused.

[00:36:59] Sarah Gilbert: No, it was, it was really interesting. And it wasn't like I felt compelled or pressured to answer you. I could have made up any sort of bullshit answer, honestly, but (Charlie laughs) it was -

[00:37:12] Charlie Ocean: Yes.

[00:37:13] Sarah Gilbert: It was one of those - and this has happened one other time in my life, years and years ago, when I needed to leave a very unhealthy relationship. Where a friend, a trusted friend, asked me a question and it was almost like this out of body experience, like I answered the question, not even consciously, I don't even know how to articulate it. It's just sort of, just sort of flowed out of me. And then it was like, "Oh, okay, now I have to take action on it."

In this case, like, I don't know exactly what action that is, but something has shifted, some process of exploration in a different way.

And there's really a huge credit to you and the relationship we have, that you are so trusting and supportive, that I felt completely, and I have felt, as long as we've known each other, like, I can say anything to you and talk to you about anything and know that I'm never going to be judged or criticized or even get a weird look of like, "What? What?"

[00:38:03] Charlie Ocean: Thank you. Yeah, if I do give you that look, it's because I'm judging the other people in your stories. (both laugh)

[00:38:08] Sarah Gilbert: Sure, right, right. As I would too. As I would too, yeah.

[00:38:13] Charlie Ocean: Guard dog for my friends. But yeah, similarly, like, we've just known each other for so many years now and I've been so lucky to not only be friends with you, but also have the honor of doing training sessions with you or we co-authored that book that I want to update and figure out new life for, (laughs) so more people get their hands on it but it's been such an honor and you're, again, truly and easily one of my favorite people in the world too.

[00:38:38] Sarah Gilbert: Aww, thank you.

[00:38:38] Charlie Ocean: Yeah like it means a lot. I mean, I'm not gonna lie, when I was younger, especially in my early 20s, I was that little asshole who felt like "Well, I'm an ally because I'm queer and so other people should be comfortable, like, coming to me and telling me about their queerness." Right.

[00:38:57] Sarah Gilbert: Yeah.

[00:38:57] Charlie Ocean: But then, like, I got over myself. I don't know what humble pie serving I got from where, but I eventually got over myself and realized that wasn't the way to go. That's why now it's just like a shift of - and maybe this is like the social worker in me - it's an honor and privilege to have someone share that with me. (both laugh)

I know, I was like, "blah" as it was coming out of my mouth.

But it is true.

[00:39:20] Sarah Gilbert: Yeah.

[00:39:21] Charlie Ocean: I've only felt honored. Just the conversations we've had in private, too, about this. I've poked fun at you because you'll say something and I'm like, yeah, you're queer. (Charlie laughs)

[00:39:30] Sarah Gilbert: Yeah, exactly. Yes. Even preparing -

[00:39:32] Charlie Ocean: Like "Check, check check."

[00:39:33] Sarah Gilbert: Even preparing for this podcast episode, it's like, "I don't know, Charlie, I don't feel like I get to use that word."

You're like, "Yeah, no." Like, like, "Get over yourself."

[00:39:41] Charlie Ocean: Yeah, you're so queer. (Sarah laughs) No, I mean, to me, it's funny. I - and this isn't everyone's experience - and I also don't want to like, belittle or demean or something, you know, an experience that can be really challenging and crunchy to navigate.

Cause I could easily anticipate questions people would have for you of like, "Well, why did it take you this long? Like, you've been practicing allyship and you've known all these things. So like, why haven't - "

[00:40:08] Sarah Gilbert: Mm-hmm.

[00:40:08] Charlie Ocean: "You haven't like done your own exploration or whatever." There's all sorts of like mean-spirited things people could say, but -

[00:40:14] Sarah Gilbert: Sure.

[00:40:15] Charlie Ocean: You know, something I know you feel very passionately about and work with - work on with your own clients is just this idea that it's an ever-evolving journey and you don't have to know, in your case, or your fake client's case in the vignette, (both laugh) when they're a teenager or whatever, cause like you said, it could be an innocent question that just all of a sudden unlocks a part of your brain that you're like, "Wait."

[00:40:40] Sarah Gilbert: Mm-hmm.

[00:40:40] Charlie Ocean: And then when you allow yourself permission to explore that, yeah, I think it's really interesting what you could discover about yourself. Because like, especially if you felt like you fit whatever societal molds, for the most part, for these kinds of things, why would you question it?

And in your case, it's never, to my knowledge - and please feel free to correct me - it's never been something that's just been like, "Oh shit, you know, like I gotta figure this out" or whatever. It's more just, it's something that can like sneak up on you. Cause we evolve, we grow.

[00:41:13] Sarah Gilbert: Yes. Yeah. That's a great way to put it.

And I think that's why - I've never been opposed to the idea, but I never investigated it either, because for most of my life, the people I had been in relationships with or attracted to, were men. So I was just like, "Okay, that checks out." But also, I happen to really enjoy going to, like, gay clubs and drag shows.

And I just didn't realize (laughs) that there was any bit of connection there. Like, why did I feel so comfortable in those spaces? You know, that maybe that could have meant something about me that had not yet been, I don't know, the word "activated" comes up I guess.

Like I had just, you know, there have been, you know, famous actresses over the years where you'd be like, "Oh wow, she's really beautiful." But even then it didn't feel like a sexuality thing, it's just like, "Wow, that person is, to me, objectively beautiful." End of story.

[00:42:01] Charlie Ocean: Yeah. I'm curious if I can find this quickly, I think I found it. "I was trying to explain to my grandma what being bisexual meant, and saying that I looked at ladies butts, and she was all, 'You're not gay, everyone checks out ladies rear ends.' And my sister was like, 'I have never wanted to look at a ladies butt.' Later, my grandma called me and was like, I think I might be a little gay." (both laugh)

[00:42:27] Sarah Gilbert: I love that.

[00:42:28] Charlie Ocean: I think this was on Tumblr because I think there was a repost and it just said "Best grandma story."

[00:42:32] Sarah Gilbert: Oh my gosh.

[00:42:33] Charlie Ocean: My understanding is that this is actually a true story that someone was sharing.

[00:42:37] Sarah Gilbert: That's so funny.

[00:42:38] Charlie Ocean: Yeah, I just see you like, going, "Charlie, I think I might be a little gay."

[00:42:44] Sarah Gilbert: That reminds me of one of my own experiences, and I think it might have been around the time that we had this conversation that opened this up. I don't remember if it was exactly before or after, but I know it was around the same time.

I was on a trip with a friend, it was like a work conference retreat thing. And as part of that, in the downtime, we went out to a lesbian bar, and there was a drag show, and I was loving it, it was amazing, I was with a good friend of mine, and we were just hanging out and having a great time.

And then my friend was asking questions about it, about the drag queens, and totally innocent and innocuous, but I was like, "Wait a minute, have you never been to one of these before?" And she was like, (in shy voice) "Nooo." (Charlie laughs) She was totally fine, right, like, she wasn't saying anything offensive, but I was like, "Wait, what? How did you get this far in life and you've never been to a drag show? Doesn't everybody just do that?" (laughs)

So, just like, that's what that reminds me of.

[00:43:34] Charlie Ocean: Yes.

[00:43:35] Sarah Gilbert: And that's part of that, like, unlocking of like, "Oh, maybe everybody doesn't do this."

[00:43:39] Charlie Ocean: Yes. Yes. You know, I certainly had certain privileges, especially growing up in the LA area. So I was able to be exposed to a lot of these kinds of things.

[00:43:49] Sarah Gilbert: Yeah.

[00:43:49] Charlie Ocean: And even if I hadn't figured out I were queer, like, fairly early on. And for me, and I know you'll love this answer because you're such a bookworm, for me, what helped me to unlock my queerness were books.

Mm-hmm.

[00:44:03] Sarah Gilbert: That makes sense.

[00:44:04] Charlie Ocean: In particular, what really sparked that was "The Perks of Being a Wallflower" and then "Stone Butch Blues." So reading those, I'll always point back to both of those books having a profound impact on my life, because both of them shed lights on certain experiences that I didn't realize that other people had, etc.

And this is why I come back to, it's okay to say "gay." It's okay to have LGBTQ+ representation in curriculum. And in fact, I encourage it, because if I had found out about this even in kindergarten, I wouldn't have felt like this broken weirdo for most of my life. (laughs)

[00:44:45] Sarah Gilbert: Right.

[00:44:46] Charlie Ocean: Now, I'm a proud weirdo, you know, it's, it's different. (laughs)

[00:44:50] Sarah Gilbert: Yeah.

[00:44:50] Charlie Ocean: I felt so much shame and everything just cause I wasn't seeing other people talking about it.

And for anyone who might, and I, If you're listening to this podcast, I doubt you're going to fall in this, but perhaps - or maybe you might hear someone else reflected in this - but there are ways to appropriately talk about it even in kindergarten. We could have easily read a book about a kid having two mommies, or two daddies, or whatever.

You wouldn't have even had to have like explicitly said they were gay or anything because there's all sorts of families. It could be like the step mom and the biological mom or whatever, right. We know there's different kinds of families.

But any, any representation would have been so helpful because like, no one was talking about it. And if they did, it was in jest or especially during the nineties, we could almost never get a happy ending, especially in like movies.

[00:45:41] Sarah Gilbert: Yeah, that visibility is so important, right. I don't remember how old she was, my daughter was maybe six, I don't know, four or six, somewhere around that age, and she was at a playground, and you know, we had started, just like you're saying, like having these conversations of there's different families, people love, you know, whoever.

And she saw a kid in the playground and basically out of an interaction, she came to realize that this child had two moms. And my daughter's response, which like made me tear up so, so proud is, "Oh man, you have two moms? I only have one." (Charlie laughs)

And I was like, I've done something right, thank God, that she's not weirded out by the fact that this kid had two moms. I was just like so proud and also amused, right, because that was really funny.

It's not impossible (laughs) for kids to understand these concepts and then it just makes it not weird or shameful. I feel like we keep avoiding these topics and when we don't encourage people to explore their identity, all that does is signal shame.

[00:46:37] Charlie Ocean: Yeah.

Considering your Multi faceted identity as a therapist, mom, wife, friend, an evolving queer human. What advice would you give to others who may be struggling to navigate this same journey?

[00:46:54] Sarah Gilbert: I know this is going to sound so trite, but my advice is a favorite line of mine from "Ted Lasso," (Charlie laughs) which I say is one of the greatest shows on TV, which is "Be curious, not judgmental." To continue to allow yourself to engage in curiosity.

And it's so interesting through my own experience, I've noticed how much self-judgment can show up, right. We think of judgment in terms of like from other people, but I would really invite people to engage in their own curiosity and be mindful of and try to distangle from self-judgment, so that you can figure out whatever (laughs) feels right for you in terms of how you understand yourself or how you want to express that or who, who you want to let in on this information too; I think that's an important thing.

Can I give two tips? Is that okay to do more than one? (both laugh)

[00:47:46] Charlie Ocean: Well, we haven't even led up to the allyship tip yet.

That's still coming up, but go for it.

[00:47:50] Sarah Gilbert: Yeah. I mean, in terms of advice for people going through this, be thinking about who is getting this, like, who do you trust, who deserves this information about you? As you're continuing to evolve, like, who can you bounce ideas off of? Or who can you talk to about this? So.

[00:48:07] Charlie Ocean: If someone asked me to describe you in, like, non-traditional ways, I'd probably say what you need to know About Sarah is Freddie Mercury, Ted Lasso, and iced coffee. Did I get the iced coffee part right?

[00:48:26] Sarah Gilbert: 100%! Iced coffee!

[00:48:27] Charlie Ocean: I have a pause, okay.

[00:48:28] Sarah Gilbert: All year long is -

[00:48:29] Charlie Ocean: That's such gay culture. (both laugh)

[00:48:30] Sarah Gilbert: I think it's like I think it's like I think it's like 22 degrees right now where I am, so it's like, I don't care, I still drank an iced coffee this morning - (laughs) iced coffee, iced latte, whatever. I don't care how cold it is outside, I will get looks, I will get laughs.

Yeah, I've seen several memes around on the internet about like people with their iced coffee and walking quickly as that being, "Okay, that's gay." I'm like, "Oh, yeah, definitely." Fast walker. (Charlie laughs) Always, always with iced coffee.

Yeah.

[00:48:58] Charlie Ocean: (laughs) Same, same. And then being like an anxious mess throughout the whole thing.

So what's one allyship tip you'd like everyone listening to consider.

[00:49:11] Sarah Gilbert: I would say when somebody does share a piece of their identity with you, that is different from what you've previously known, to really pause and be mindful of the fact that this person has trusted you with that information, before you react in any way.

Just that acknowledgement of like, "Wow, this person telling me this -" it may be shocking, it may be surprising, but "Wow, this person really trusted me with this information." And having that mindset, hopefully can inform how you do react, because I think that's something a lot of people miss.

[00:49:50] Charlie Ocean: And you know what I missed? We didn't even talk about like your musical theater background or any of that, speaking of gay. (both laugh)

[00:49:58] Sarah Gilbert: That's where I found my people. Yeah. I got into theater in high school, actually the first production - well, I worked backstage, I was never actually on the stage. But working backstage was just like, "These are my people. The queer vibes, the misfits, the weirdos."

And then also the summer between my junior and senior year of high school, I got to go to a summer program at the Savannah College of Art and Design, and that was where I really found my people. Like, such a diverse, beautiful mix of people and interests and personalities and aesthetics.

I was one of the few kids there at that program who wasn't homesick, which also speaks to my not great family life back home, (laughs) but also it's like, "Oh, these are my people, can I just stay here?" (laughs) This is way better than the kind of conservative, non-diverse town that I was growing up in Connecticut; it was lovely. (begin folk guitar musical PSA)

[00:50:48] Charlie Ocean: Do I think I'm queer? Do I think I really belong here?

I thought I was a super ally, but now I'm telling my guy

about this Peloton instructor. She's so fun and I like her.

Maybe I want, to go on a date, but isn't it too late to call myself queer?

(end of musical PSA)

[00:51:22] Charlie Ocean: Does anyone else get Ani DiFranco vibes from that? (laughs) I do. I got to see her perform in LA, I want to say around the 2010s, and she was absolutely phenomenal. She's an incredible performer because watching her, it just felt like each song she sang was fresh. Like she was there in that song. I don't know how else to describe it, but it was incredible.

And all of the love and care and energy she put into that show just was incredible. So, I'll say that much.

That said, Sarah, I am so fucking proud of you. Seriously, for so many reasons, and I'm honored and humbled that you would not only trust me with this information within our friendship. But also take this scary step of putting this out into the world. I mean, you've certainly been on podcasts before, but not talking about this. So thank you. And I love you.

I also quickly want to say, before we dive into the final three self-reflection questions, that I have started an Allyship is a Verb newsletter, finally. You'll get periodic updates about the podcast, but I'm also specifically emailing calls to action.

I sent out three last week in an email regarding a petition, readathon, and a free virtual event for parents. So, go to the website or check out the show notes to get on the list if you haven't already. Thank you so much to those of you who have signed up.

My intention is to eventually turn it into a community with courses, lives, forums, and all of that fun stuff so that we can be in this together and even more intentionally.

All right, final three self-reflection questions:

4. Do I have an identity that I feel should play a lesser role in my life? How can I make that shift?

5. What's a side of myself or identity I'd like to explore more?

6. When was the last time I vulnerably opened up to someone? How did it feel?

Visit AllyshipIsAVerb.com for any resources and a full transcript of the episode.

And remember, sometimes allyship means to pause and be mindful of how you react when someone shares something personal.