[00:00:17] Chris Angel Murphy

Welcome to Allyship is a Verb, the LGBTQ+ podcast that explores and humanizes practicing allyship for the LGBTQ+ community and beyond. I'm the host, Chris Angel and my pronouns are they/them. Each episode will either be a quick tip to practice allyship or a longer episode to pass the mic to someone else to help keep the conversation intersectional. So this time, let's pass the mic.

[00:00:49] Coco Peru

Hello my darlings, it's Coco Peru and my pronouns are she/her, he/him.

[00:00:56] Chris Angel Murphy

Coco started drag in 1991 and has kept her classic look over the years including her iconic hair. She's an American actor, comedian, and longtime LGBTQ+ advocate with a background in theater. She's hosted so many charity events, one-woman shows, and has quite the following. I knew about her because of her work while I was growing up in Los Angeles, where she currently resides.

[00:01:22] Chris Angel Murphy

It's been an interesting balance for me as a podcast host and educator to decide which words to censor or not. As an educational podcast, I don't want to erase history. However, I also don't want to cause harm. There's an interesting tension there. That being said, I want to acknowledge that this episode needs content warning for a few things. There is a moment where we briefly discuss sexual assault. And there are words I have chosen to leave in because while they have and continue to be used as slurs, they are words my guest uses and reclaims for herself. In this context, I do not remove them. With those in mind, please take care of yourself however you need to before potentially listening to this episode.

[00:02:14] Chris Angel Murphy

Can you share what being a drag queen means to you?

[00:02:18] Coco Peru

Well, when I was very young and starting my career, I was inspired by a drag queen- a specific drag queen in Peru. So, I was- always thought of myself as a drag queen and I saw that term as a something to be proud of. And then when I started my shows, people coming to my shows, and saying you're not really a drag queen because you're- you're what you're doing is theater and autobiographical storytelling and- and that's not drag. Because I think at that time drag was just this stereotypical, you know, queen lipsyncing in some dive bars somewhere. I mean, that's, I think that that's what people thought they didn't elevate drag in the same way I elevated in my mind saw drag. And so I always told people when they said not to call myself a drag queen, like, I always said I- I wear that label proudly. And I've always been adamant that I be called a drag queen. I always tell people they needed to broaden their mind about what drag is.

[00:03:31] Coco Peru

I had grown up always wanting to be a performer. So, drag always had a sense of performance in it for me- it wasn't just about dressing up. It was there- had to be a performance connected to it. But it was much more than performance for me it was um- I had been raised, you know, in a neighborhood that was a very working-class and being gay and being different was very difficult and very painful. And I went away to college to study acting and performance and was sort of shamed there with being told to "butch up" and I was too effeminate, and I had to lose my Bronx accent and of course I hit my S's and my T's too hard and all the stuff that I think a lot of gay men can relate to. And when I saw that drag queen in Peru sort of cross over and become famous in that very homophobic, Catholic country where you had a knock on a door to get into the- or a little window to get into this gay bar that you would never even know was there. I thought how wild that a drag queen could cross over into the public and be celebrated on television.

[00:04:48] Coco Peru

And so I decided that there was something about owning 100% of who you were. And so I decided to take everything I've been taught to hate about myself and celebrate it through drag. Oh and at the same time that happened, I used to go to gay bookstores and I had read a book about Native American Two Spirited people. And the first book I bought was called, We'wha The Zuni Man-Woman. And I think I picked- probably picked it up not so much because it was, at that time Two Spirit spoke to me, I was more interested in- in that time in the late 80s and early 90s, it was very popular [both laugh] Southwest, Indian, Native American stuff. So I would buy lots of CDs with Native American music and new agey kind of stuff. And that's probably why I picked up the book. When I read it, it was the first time I felt connected to something bigger than myself. And I felt like I had a history, I felt like I was reading who I was for the first time and that term Two Spirit stuck with me. It just, I just felt like "oh my gosh, this is- I'm finally learning who I am- what I have always felt inside of myself." So that even became a part of my show, when I talked about that in my show. I understand now that me using the term Two Spirit to describe myself, it's probably not a correct thing to do, because of cultural appropriation, but I also didn't see myself culturally appropriating that term, because whenever I used that term, whenever I spoke about Two Spirited people, I always talked about those books and how I discovered it and what it meant to me. So I don't- I honored the actual uh- it wasn't, I wasn't walking around, calling myself Two Spirit. I was always talking about where that term came from and honoring that culture. So, I feel like I did the right thing when I did use that term. Now, now- nowadays, I guess I would call myself non-binary, but that doesn't resonate with me because it's just not pretty. [Coco laughs] I need things to be pretty, that term to me is just so- it does nothing for me. You know, Two Spirit- that's beautiful but non-binary… when I read what people mean by it, of course, that resonates with me, but the actual term is not pretty.

[00:07:31] Chris Angel Murphy

There's terms like gender creative, gender nonconforming, you know, gender fluid, things like that, do those-those all feel like a little bit better for you-

[00:07:43] Coco Peru

No

[00:07:43] Chris Angel Murphy

And more expansive or? No?

[00:07:45] Coco Peru

No. Fluid, I like it. It's not a pretty word, either. But I to me that- I get a picture in my head, when I hear that. And I guess that's why those words don't resonate with me, it's because I don't- it doesn't create an excitement in my brain or in my creativity. And when I discovered Two Spirit, and that term, and that book, I felt like a revolution was happening inside of my body. I literally felt like I was stretching back in time. I can't describe it, except to say it was like a religious calling. And for the first time in my life, I felt rooted, literally, like my feet were planted in something rich and deep that went beyond me, and that I was being held up by all those people that came before me. And so that the words-Two, you know, which is what I've always felt like this dual person. And for years, like, I've never felt like a boy. And then at one point, I thought, "well, maybe I'm- was supposed to be a girl," but I always was going back and forth between those two. And so when I felt like there was finally- it was okay to be, Two, and then I threw in this whole spiritual journey that I was on because it did feel like a spiritual, religious calling- obvious that that term spoke to me. So right now, there's nothing to really describe my journey. You know, so I'm just Coco Peru.

[00:09:31] Chris Angel Murphy

Yes, and I love that. So did you feel that same shift? That same profound shift and that spiritual experience when you had met that drag queen in Peru then? Would you describe it with like the same intensity or?

[00:09:49] Coco Peru

No, it was- to me that was more of a curiosity. Bit of awe and questioning, and it's when I went back to New York and was reading that book that I told you about. There were several things that happened in my life that all happened at the same time. And so much so that it did feel like there was this higher power involved in making sure that all the elements came together so that I would have this aha moment. Where one day I said, "I'm a drag queen," before I'd ever done drag. And as soon as like- now I imagine nowadays kids might say, "oh, aha, I'm non-binary." But at the time drag queen was- that was the answer for me. Also, because I wanted to be an activist. And I also wanted to be a performer. So, drag queen just seemed like the perfect fit. But beyond that, I do feel like there are- there have been days where I have dressed up as Coco, I'm don't do it so much anymore because I've gotten incredibly lazy [Chris Agel laughs]. It used to be a lot easier to make myself pretty when I was young. But, where I would just dress up as Coco, because I felt like I needed to just enjoy my female energy, you know? And then there's other days where, you know, I just don't want to shave for [Coco laughs] six days. So I've always felt very fluid, if you will.

[00:11:17] Chris Angel Murphy

Yeah, I know. There's some jokes on the internet about now it feels more like gender vapor with the heat waves. But yeah. [Coco laughs]

[00:11:25] Coco Peru

Now I noticed your, your pronouns are they/them, right? And when I talk about this, see, I think years ago, that was what was- now with the internet, people are so opinionated. And if you disagree with someone, or people can read what you say and misinterpret it, where, as I love conversations and I love being curious. So I love that the young people are talking about all this stuff and discovering it and reinventing it and, you know, and I'm, I'm happy to be a part of that, as well. But I-the reason why I say she, he, him, her and all that is because that they/them didn't resonate with me either. Because I felt so broken growing up, where I didn't feel like I could be myself and I always felt like I had the male and female aspects in one person. I worked so hard to- to incorporate both of those into a singular person. And they and them is not singular to me. And so that's why that- those pronouns don't work for me. It just sounds not my experience. Yeah, but I understand why it works for some people. And I do think language evolves. So maybe because I'm older, it may not sound right to my ear or my experience, but that doesn't mean it's not right. It just, you know, because I understand that language evolves. And someday they/them will be like nothing, you know?

[00:13:11] Chris Angel Murphy

Yeah.

[00:13:12] Coco Peru

Yeah.

[00:13:13] Chris Angel Murphy

When you started doing drag and knowing that you- you really started I believe in- in New York, specifically, especially with your theater background and everything. Did you find that, especially back then, that it was hard for folks to suddenly use a new name and pronoun set for you when you were performing?

[00:13:32] Coco Peru

No, no, no, it was very- in fact, a lot of my friends that knew me, before I started doing drag uh, it just seemed, I think, very natural for them to call me Coco. Even when I was dressed as a boy, to use she when I was just Coco, he when I was dressed as Clinton, sometimes it got mixed up. But see it never mattered to me. Because they all felt right to me. And also when I'm in public nowadays, and if someone let's say I'm in a Starbucks, and I'm dressed as Coco and someone wants to be a bit rude and they refer to me as sir or he, I don't let it bother me. Because they have every right to gender me how they want to because I know who I am. So it doesn't ruin my day. And I will not let anybody have that power over me. And I- I want young people to understand that, that there's only so far you can expect people to- yes, we would love for people to be respectful and understand our journey, have empathy and compassion, but not everybody's like that. But just because they're not doesn't mean it should ruin your day, if they want to misgeneder you. It says something more about them than it does about your experience.

[00:15:02] Chris Angel Murphy

Absolutely. And, you know, sometimes drag performers can field invasive questions or receive unwanted behaviors from audience members. I know that I've gone to Hamburger Mary's, for example, in one of the cities, and I've seen handsy people even attempt to lift up a performer's skirt or their dress, and which was horrifying for me. Because I was- in my mind, you just you don't do that to anyone. It doesn't matter if they're in drag, it doesn't matter if it's a theater performance. So and I know that you have also experienced harassment while in drag and traveling to and from shows. So I guess with that in mind, it seems like it would be fairly obvious, but how can folks be better to drag performers?

[00:15:47] Coco Peru

[Coco gasps] Oh, god, that's a huge question. I don't know. I think- I have a, oh I have a story. Maybe I can tell it through a story. But years ago, friend- two friends of mine and myself had left Manhattan and gone upstate New York, maybe 40 minutes outside of New York, we went to a gay bar up there. And I was dressed as Coco. And when we left, they said, "Oh, let's stop at a diner." I was starving. And I said, you know, it's probably like two in the morning. And I said, "we're not in New York City, things are different once- once you leave Manhattan."

Anyway, they wanted to go. So we went into this diner, and they ended up sitting a table full of 18-year-old, 19-year-old, 20-year-old guys, straight guys, near us. And they started laughing and you know and making noises. And then it became like a wolf pack, where they just kept encouraging each other to the point where they got out of control and one guy actually threw his face into his like, big burger plate with french fries, and came up with ketchup dripping down his face, like he and making these animals noises. It was crazy. Plus, they threw a ton of food at me, right? So my friends were getting really, really irritated. And I knew that this was going to escalate and get ugly.

So I looked at my two friends and I said, "I am going to act like a lady. A classy woman. And you are going to treat me that way. That's your only responsibility is to treat me the way I expect to be treated." And finally the guys left and the owner of the diner call these- called the police. The police made the men, boys, come back, made them pick up all the food that they had thrown, made them come over to me and apologized one by one, they had to stand in front of me and apologize.

And then when I left the restaurant, all the patrons that had kind of laughed at me and, you know, dismissed me as I walked in, looked at me now and said, "Goodnight, ma'am. Good night, Miss." You know? And like smiles and I- I said to my friends, "That was a real lesson in-" and I mean, I was exhausted by the time we left because it took a lot. But a real lesson in how you see yourself is how other people will treat you. You know?

So yes, there have been many times when uh that didn't work for me where guys would walk up and grab my tits or, you know, whatever. I don't really have an answer to that question. Because I feel like I'm- I haven't thought about it a lot. I think because I'm not wild and outrageous. I think people have always been a little cautious of how they treat me. So I've never- and they're coming to see a theater show. So they're not very drunk and touchy and grabbing. But there have been times. The worst thing is when people touch my hair.

[00:18:58] Chris Angel Murphy

Mmm. The iconic hair. Mhm.

[00:19:01] Coco Peru

They love to touch my hair. And that drives me crazy. And I've been surprised over the years that some people, even who are, you know, should know better actually, who have reached out and grabbed a boob and given it a squeeze and stuff.

[00:19:20] Chris Angel Murphy

Yeah. And what's interesting too, is like, I don't know, it's almost like they're trying to be affirming and it's missing the mark. Because they're like, "well, I'm gonna treat you like a woman then if you're going to dress like one." It's like okay, but also like you're saying, we don't treat women that way.

[00:19:35] Coco Peru

Right.

[00:19:35] Chris Angel Murphy

So it's- it's interesting because drag, right, can tend to be this exaggeration of certain you know, gender norms, expectations, etc. And I know you've always been very particular about how you've expressed yourself as Coco and all of your choices in terms of like what you wear just, you know, the energy you take up and yeah, I think it says a lot about our culture that people behave in this way, sometimes, at these kinds of events.

[00:20:04] Coco Peru

And the other, I just wanted to address like the flip side of that is that like, there have been times when I have been dressed as Coco where guys have, like, flirted with me and been a bit aggressive about it and where I've actually, like, wanted that, you know?

So it's just about like the agreement between two people I think and what energy you're putting out there. Um, I'm not saying I've, I've wanted people to just reach out and touch me. No. But, there have been times when guys have catcalled at me and I have just loved it [both laugh].

[00:21:02] Chris Angel Murphy

So with being more critical about how we treat each other, and then there's all these conversations around things like consent, how would you share with others? Or like, how do you see that going in a way so it can be more consent-based and people know, like, if you are in a place where you want to be catcalled? Or what do you think that like, looks like now?

[00:21:02] Coco Peru

I don't know, things are evolving so fast. That when I think back to the '90s - early '90s, when I first started, it was a completely different world and there was no internet. So, if somebody misbehaved, it's as like, it never happened, you know. But I mean, almost like years ago, it was part of the job almost to deal with that. I mean, even before I did drag, my teacher shaming me. I didn't think there was anything wrong with that, because I was this homosexual that needed to butch up- like I didn't. Now, it's like, God, I can't believe I went through that.

Even in Hollywood, some of the things that have been said to me, as a drag queen, I think, "Man, I can't believe they got away with that." And it was because they thought less- lesser of me in a weird way. And I think psychologically, I knew when I got into this field that I was going to be treated like that, but I was willing to take it on. Whereas I think the younger generation is like, "No, we're not- yo- you can't treat us like that." And I guess I always worked towards that.

But, now that I see it come to fruition, it's like, "Wow, I really did put up with a lot of stuff." You know, just even people saying, "Don't call yourself a drag queen." I mean, I knew that didn't feel right to me when they said that, but I never just said "Screw you." I mean, I always tried to explain to them, but which I think is better to try and educate people rather than cancel them right away. I love canceling people who [Coco laughs] are just horrible people. I do think-

[00:22:57] Chris Angel Murphy

and continue to do those things.

[00:22:59] Coco Peru

And yeah

[00:23:00] Chris Angel Murphy

Yeah, and they've been checked-

[00:23:00] Coco Peru

or they are very clear about who they are. And, you know, spreading hate. But if somebody is apologizing or saying, "Wow, I see how you know, that could be hurtful." And I'm always willing to give them a pass. Because I- and even look at my own history of some of the things that were completely appropriate back in the late '80s and '90s that are no longer acceptable.

[00:23:26] Chris Angel Murphy

Something that's been interesting for me to see, too, is we tend to hear and see more about drag queens and not so much drag kings. Why do you think that is?

[00:23:40] Coco Peru

I don't know why that is. I love drag kings.

I went to a drag king show in Phoenix, many, many, many, many years ago. I had the best time there. It was so sexy and fun. And there was even one I thought like, "I would totally make out with you" [both laugh] because he was just so cute. You know, and I just really, like fell in love with their show and what they were doing.

And so I don't know why that- that is the case. But I do think um years ago, I think gay men have always had a certain sensibility. And that was um- I don't know accessible in a way? And when I look at who my heroes are growing up and it was always these very strong women with greats- the great sense of humor, or super talented and

[00:24:36] Chris Angel Murphy

Some who you've been able to interview.

[00:24:38] Coco Peru

Yes. And so these are the people I was modeling myself after and- and I do believe that that's maybe what I sort of grieve, as drag's become more mainstream, is that or reality TV has become more popular, and the internet has become more popular, is that um, it doesn't take much now to become a celebrity. Whereas when I was young, if you were going to have any kind of career, there had to be a craft. Yeah. I mean, again, yes, there were probably people back then who were not super-talented who had crossed over and become famous. But generally speaking, if you were going to get noticed in New York City, you had to be doing something special and working on it.

[00:25:31] Chris Angel Murphy

Something else that I've seen is that maybe a decade ago or so, we had transgender as an umbrella, which it still exists but, drag performers used to be considered to be under that.

[00:25:46] Coco Peru

We were, yes.

[00:25:48] Chris Angel Murphy

More recently, right, there's been a shift where we're saying, "Well, there can be overlap." I certainly know people who happen to be transgender, but also do drag, but it's not the same and it's not considered under that bucket anymore. I'm wondering, have you- I don't know- did- did you have like conversations with folks-

[00:26:10] Coco Peru

Yes

[00:26:11] Chris Angel Murphy

over the years about that-

[00:26:13] Coco Peru

Yes

[00:26:13] Chris Angel Murphy

I'd love to know more what you- what do you think?

[00:26:15] Coco Peru

Well, my- I have trans friends that, you know, they've always considered me on the sort of spectrum of trans.. And when I referred to myself in a show- I wrote a monologue years ago- that was where I was educating this young person who had littered and said horrible things to me. And I was saying, you know, something about being a VIT- a very important trans. [Chris Angel laughs] And nowadays, I wouldn't be able to do that monologue, I'd have to change it. Even though I think there would be people out there, including my trans friends who would totally understand where I'm coming from, it's not worth dealing with that percentage of people that are going to have a problem with it and create something out of nothing or out of clearly reading it the wrong way.

[00:27:07] Coco Peru

So I actually did a show. Actually, it wasn't even a show, I was hosting a Bingo Night or something like that in a college and a young trans girl on the campus made a very ugly stink about my going there. And a lot of the young people in the college stood by her. And she wanted me to be canceled.

[00:27:28] Chris Angel Murphy

Wow.

[00:27:29] Coco Peru

And I had said, "Please have her come. I'd love to talk with her and share with her my history and she doesn't know who I am or what my show are like." And well, she didn't, but her roommate came and he told me- he was a gay boy, that he understood who I was and whatnot. But that, that saddened me, because when I was young, trans people and drag queens were brothers and sisters and we knew we were related and supporting each other. And a lot of trans friends started as drag queens and then evolved- discovered a deeper, richer part of themselves. And we were the- the drag queens- the first to say, "That makes sense. Yes." So you know, it wasn't- it wasn't a boundary between our worlds.

I still couldn't- so, it's confusing to me, because I still don't see it. I've always felt a deep, rich connection with trans people because I felt on some level, trans. Not so much to the point of what we think trans is nowadays, but some sort of sisterly- I was on the spectrum somewhere. And I think that's a lovelier place to live. Why put up a wall? And I know many trans friends who agree with me.

But I understand- I'm also very supportive of the trans movement, where they have to have voice that maybe doesn't include a drag queen, because that is a different experience. That I completely understand and support. Absolutely. I mean, I was thrilled when trans people were getting cast in shows- it's everything I've worked towards. I feel like the reason I did drag was because I- and I said it early on, and I've- my husband reminds me of it all the time- is because I want to make a safer world for LGBTQ kids and make the world more accessible, safer place for them. I didn't want them to have to go through what I went through.

So seeing all of this happening now is- is exciting. When it backfires, and people call me out, [Coco laughs] it's very painful because I feel like "Wait a minute. I'm the one that's committed to this movement years ago and dealt with all the bullshit and the had - you know, and I'm riding on the backs of those that came before me and, and you can at least acknowledge that."

So, I was very hurt by that young trans girl causing that ruckus. And that she actually, it was easy for her to get people on her side, because these young people didn't know who I was and the trans movement was very vocal and correct. And so it was easy for her to turn a portion of those young people against my coming to the college without them even knowing who I am or what I stand for. I wrote a monologue about it. [Both laugh].

[00:30:46] Chris Angel Murphy

You're really good at those. It is disappointing. I mean, because you know, there's this larger LGBTQ+ community, you know, whichever initialism, acronym, etc, you want to use. And, you know, there's this assumed unity, but like you said, there can be differences in our experiences and our wants and our needs. And we don't all agree on the ways forward, and yet, it does hurt, I would argue even more, so to get the hate from inwards and not have those conversations. And you know.

[00:31:18] Coco Peru

Yeah and I have, like, drag friends that look at me, and they've told me, they're like, "It's funny, Coco, I feel like you're a woman. I know, like we're all drag queens, but like," there's like, they say, "We almost consider you trans." Because you're, you know, I don't know what that energy is.

But it's like, who's to deny where we are on the spectrum, and what are experience- we all have an experience. But I try to respect what the conversation is in the moment and not get too- everything keeps evolving. And that's what's important is to keep having the conversation and not- I think that's what I- why was just most- that's what I was most disappointed about that young trans girl, was that she wasn't willing to have the conversation. And I've always been willing to have the conversation, even with people that hate me. And I felt like she could have at least granted me that.

And that's what I want young people- you can be righteous, but you should always stay open to a conversation because you might actually evolve or change or, you know what I mean? Or grow- become richer.

[00:32:31] Chris Angel Murphy

Mhmm. Yeah. And, and also just the differences in the generations. And it's not to say that, again, even with those generations as those micro you know, subcultures, and that they can't have disagreements. Like terms, like, you know, you've seen us retire certain phrases, and some be reclaimed, so queer can still be charged for folks. There's still folks who consider themselves to be transsexual, you know, and claim that for themselves, and, you know, or we have, dyke marches- things like that. So-

[00:33:06] Coco Peru

I love all those words. You know, there was such- when they would have the dykes on bikes start off the pride parade [Chris Angel laughs], there was nothing more powerful than that, to me, and joyful. And to see, you know, the signs, dykes on bikes, and just scream for them. And I just loved it. And, you know, years ago, I was doing an event and I had used the word in a rehearsal- I had used the word faggot. And they told me I wasn't allowed to use that word. And I was using it in an empowering way of having always been called that as a kid. And I was turning it around saying, "And now this faggot can actually dih-dih-dih". You know, that's, you know, I was using- and I felt like, we're all adults, we're all- we all know what we've been called. It just felt wrong that they would censor me. And to this day, I resent that.

Not only did they censor that word, but then they got nervous about all of my material and told me I wasn't allowed to do any of it. And it was only because they were concerned about their sponsors. I think that is so hypocritical, especially because I had won an award from this group for some of the material that they were now censoring. And when we turn on our own who are out there doing the work every single day, it just to this day, it stings me that that happened.

[00:34:44] Chris Angel Murphy

Can you share about a time that you felt truly supported by someone and what they did to show up for you?

[00:34:50] Coco Peru

Oh, I've been supported so much. I mean, my dad [Coco laughs] made my first wig stand. I mean, my dad was a truck driver. My- I was born late in my parent's life. My mom and dad came to my first show. And they sat right down in front because they were afraid people would throw tomatoes at me for talking about being openly gay [Coco laughs]. That was the mentality back then.

In fact, when I first started Coco, even being an openly gay performer was dangerous. And people warned me I was throwing my theater degree away. And yeah, I felt that my parents could show up to that first show. I felt so loved and supported that they came to the gay pride parade to watch me go by on a float. They missed me [both laugh], but they did show up. I've been very supported my whole career by many, many people.

But I think having the support of your parents who I didn't always agree with on everything, but the love- and they had lost my sister the year I was born. So she was 15 and I was 3 months old when she died. And so my parents were very clear that they didn't ever want to lose another child. And they were very supportive. Not only my being queer, but of my choosing to become Coco.

And then years later, when I was sick of drag and my career wasn't going the way I wanted it to, I threaten to quit and my mother said, "You better be very good to Coco, because she's been very good to you." So I've had support and then of course, I've had support from people like Lily Tomlin, or Liza Minnelli, or Bea Arthur who was my idol growing up. These people have come and helped me at certain points of my career to offer support. So you know, that's pretty amazing.

And that- having those friendships with those people that I worshiped growing up is like little gifts from the universe that says, "Yes, Coco, you made the right choice when you took this bold step in your life to become a drag queen." When you feel that richness in your life, and those moments, that's why when people come at me with hate, it's like, you can't compete with Bea Arthur, I'm sorry [both laugh].

[00:37:29] Chris Angel Murphy

No. So we now see drag competition reality shows that highlights subcultures like horror drag or pay tribute to drag ball history and culture. There's also conversations about safer spaces for kids to explore drag, as they can often be left out due to age restrictions for venues or most of these kinds of events. And something I've also noticed is that there are limits constantly being pushed to stretch the creativity. So drag contestants and performers can be spending 1,000s of dollars just to achieve one particular look that they're going to have the once maybe, you know, feel pressure to change up their hair, which I'm glad you've kept yours, thank you, [Coco laughs] or spend hours on YouTube learning the latest trends and makeup or fashion. I mean, there's contracts for reality shows that can be extremely limiting for pursuing other paid gigs. So I guess I'm wondering, do you think that drag is becoming less accessible in some ways to people as time goes on, because of these pressures, especially with the shows to just be over the top and just constantly push the limits? Or do you think all of this exposure for the most part has mostly been positive?

[00:38:44] Coco Peru

I've always said that it's a mix. And I've always tried to be very diplomatic when I talk about the show [RuPaul’s Drag Race], because I have- when it first came on, I think those of us in the business Varla Jean Merman, Jackie Beat- certainly myself, I can speak for myself, we took a big hit and what our earnings were because suddenly no one wanted to hire us. They were hiring girls from RuPaul's Drag Race.

And then at a certain point, I started to see a shift where a lot of these club owners and theater owners were realizing that um they were missing us. They were missing a full fleshed-out show. And they felt as though they had a duty to educate young people that what they were seeing on RuPaul's Drag Race wasn't necessarily representative of the whole, like, drag experience. And so we started to be invited back. Then we started to be invited on tours with some of the Ru girls, which is wonderful.

[00:39:39] Coco Peru

But I do think the flip side of some of the negative is what you said, you know? I have had people comment on me saying, you know, the negative comments about the fact that I've had the hairstyle for so long.

Now, when Bianca, or Jackie Beat, or Peaches Christ, or Heklina make fun of my wig- that's one thing. That's- that's love. When some kid who thinks they're an expert on drag makes a comment on my hair and they're serious, I think you don't understand what- you're not a fan of drag.

Because drag- when I created Coco, drag was about, you get to express who you feel you are and what you're looking is. That's why when Ongina was on Drag Race and they kept telling her she had put a wig on, I was like, "I love that she's a bald queen. Stop, leave her alone."

And when um, is it Aiden Zhane? Was- it was saying she only had the one wig, only the one wig. And I said, I came out and said, "What's wrong with having one wig? It certainly worked for my career." You know, I was obsessed with silhouettes growing up. I love the silhouette of Barbra Streisand's nose, but you always knew even if it was just a silhouette of Liza Minnelli, Klaus Nomi, you knew who Klaus Nomi was because of the silhouette. So that's what I wanted to create. I wanted that- if people were looking at me on stage, or looking at my shadow on the curtain behind me, they knew it was Coco Peru. And so I'm very proud of my silhouette.

Yeah, and so I've read comments about how Coco doesn't do drag makeup. Well, if you look at the '90s, if you go back and look at pictures, it was all very subtle makeup back then. Jackie Beat was one of the few queens doing that over-the-top makeup. If you look at pictures of Bianca Del Rio, when she first started, it was much more subtle than what she's evolved into. But suddenly, that look or Trixie Mattel's look is what drag should be, you know that extreme.

And to me, drag was it was always about self-expression, however you wanted to self-express yourself. So it could be ghoulish drag, it could be ugly drag, grotesque drag. It was all beautiful to me.

[00:41:57] Chris Angel Murphy

You've done a wide range of different kinds of performances, especially with like your TV appearances, film, your monologues- um, you've done so much. I'm wondering, what are your favorite kinds to do, and also, what makes a performance particularly special for you?

[00:42:19] Coco Peru

I love when you feel it. Intimacy with an audience, when you realize you've got them in the palm of your hand, and they're with you, and they're loving you. And sometimes they love you so much, they have to yell it out [both laugh].

I also love that I work so hard on my shows and giving an audience experience I am one of those queens that never has to ask, "Are you having a good time?" [Chris Angel laughs] When I see a queen that does that over and over, I'm like, honey, you need to work harder on preparing your show because you wouldn't have to ask that so much if they were really having a good time.

I love the intimacy that's created with the thing. But, I love all parts of the performance. I don't love getting made up- the actual- I have a lot of stage fright. And that's what I always tell young people, don't let your fear stop you, because once you step out onto that stage, you're forced to have to deliver something and that's kind of where the magic happens.

And that's life, in general, is showing up. And uh, I know so many people stop themselves because they don't think they know how to do it. And uh, you know, we all evolve and grow. And don't ever let your fear stop you from fulfilling a dream, you know. But, I love being with other drag queens out on the road. So, I love when I did the Drag Queens of Comedy Tour.

[00:42:14] Coco Peru

But, I also love doing my one-person shows. I loved being on Will and Grace just because I loved being part of an ensemble and the excitement of television. And I would drive on to Universal Studios and I had done the tour, you know, of Universal, but now I was watching the tour drive by me and I realized I'm actually part of the magic that's created here. So that was very, you know- they would offer to pick me up from my car and I always refused the drive because I love just to walk through the lots feeling like- I never would have imagined that this would happen in my lifetime. Although I spent my entire childhood imagining it, you know.

So um, all of those experiences have a richness to them, it's- always goes back to my childhood though. Those childhood dreams that I thought would never come true, because of who I was literally frozen on my couch it- with fear that my life had no future. And to have created that future for myself, doing something that terrified me, that people told me I was throwing away my career- that being openly gay was the nail in the coffin of my career... "doing drag- what? Drag belongs in bars" and I said, "Well, I'm going to change that."

So, I'm proud of that, on some level. I mean, I'll always be self-deprecating and have a hard time taking a compliment, because I'm fucked up. But on another level, I am proud of what I've accomplished. I wish that Hollywood and the world could open their mind to a- what drag could be.

It's interesting that the show We're Here with Bob and Eureka and Shangela- that I pitched something years ago to Logo, something very similar to that show- where Coco goes out into these small towns and, and uh at that time, it was like I was talking another language. I mean, they couldn't "what? A drag- no." There was no way there could be a drag queen on television. And- other than RuPaul show. They just couldn't envision anything beyond that.

So, I'm happy to see, even though it's not me, I'm still happy to see it happening. Because um, my goal was always to- be a part of creating that world where those things could happen. So as much as I would have liked the opportunity to have that show myself, I feel lucky that at least I get to see other people having that dream. And I happen to be friends with all three of them. So that makes it a little bit easier to swallow [Coco laughs] because they're my friends and I'm happy to see their success.

[00:46:44] Chris Angel Murphy

Oh, absolutely. Yeah, lifting each other up.

[00:46:46] Coco Peru

Yeah.

[00:46:48] Chris Angel Murphy

What do you hope to see next for drag?

[00:46:51] Coco Peru

Oh, I have no opinion about that and I'll tell you why. Because I'm old and it's gonna evolve regardless of what my opinion is- it's going to evolve how it evolves. All I care about is sitting on a beach in Spain [Chris Angel laughs].

You know, I just, I'd love that young, like you talked about kids enjoying- now, I don't really want kids at my show. I know like Kasha Davis really loves having a show where kids can go. I don't want kids anywhere near my show, because I curse, I talk about sex, and it's not for kids. But I love um that there is a space for kids to be self-expressed and enjoy drag. That excites me. You know, to see people expressing themselves.

I especially love- I remember years ago, a woman came to my show, and I talked about all the dolls that I had wanted as a kid. And then after the show, she said, "You know my boy has been asking for girl's dolls for years, I'm gonna go out and buy all of the dolls he's asked for" and I thought mission accomplished [Coco laughs]. So that was just that one woman and her child's experience.

I feel like nowadays, there are so many parents who are more aware that their child may identify differently than just girl/boy. They might be a girl-boy, too. You know, that was something that was hurled at me growing up as an insult. Kids used to call me girl-boy. And nowadays, oh! I realized they were right. [Chris Angel laughs] All that time, they actually were identifying exactly what they were experiencing. I am a girl-boy.

And in fact, I've often called myself a girl-boy, that resonates more with me than nonbinary, because it's me taking back power and owning something that has been so painful as a kid. So now, it feeling like those kids were actually correct. They saw something in me and they identified it. It would have been nice if they had identified and said, "Hey, you're a girl-boy, that's fabulous."

You know, and I love that the world is now coming around to where that is possible for so many young people. I don't mind calling myself a sissy, either. In fact, the last time my husband and I were visiting my mom, we had cleaned her apartment. She's 94 now. We had cleaned her apartment a minute. So, she came out from her bedroom into the living room- she goes, "Ah! Look how clean it is. It's so beautiful. It's like two fairies came in here and cleaned. Oh- [Chris Angel laughs] oh, I guess I shouldn't say that" And I said "Yes, you should! We are two fairies." [Both laugh]

It's about having a sense of humor, too, about words. LGBTQ people, back in the day, I think part of it was that it was survival. And so we had to keep our sense of humor in order to survive, you had to keep laughing. My generation, certainly humor was one way to survive. And that's why when I make fun of Bianca Del Rio and these young people are like, "You're trolling Bianca?" It's like, "Do you not understand drag? [Coco laughs] This is what we do. We tease each other, but it's all out of love."

[00:50:17] Chris Angel Murphy

Right, it's part of the whole culture. What's one- and there's so many to choose from. But, I'm wondering what's at least one allyship tip that you'd like for everyone listening to consider?

[00:50:27] Coco Peru

What's important is the story. And so I would encourage that part of allyship be don't always judge a person on what they are presenting, but listen to their story. Because the story is where it's rich and the story is where you're going to connect with that person. The person that might appear so different from you, might actually be your greatest ally. So I think that for me, was the biggest lesson in creating Coco.

[00:50:59] Chris Angel Murphy

Visit AllyshipIsAVerb.com for any resources and a full transcript of the episode. Thank you for practicing allyship with me. Please follow and share this episode with someone else. And remember, sometimes allyship means listening to our stories.