[00:00:00] Chris Angel Murphy: Well, hello there. I'm Chris Angel, and my pronouns are they/them. Welcome to Allyship is a Verb, the LGBTQ+ podcast for people practicing allyship for the LGBTQ+ community and beyond!

[00:00:25] Kieran Mcmonagle: Hey, my name's Kieran Mcmonagle and I use he/him pronouns.

[00:00:28] Chris Angel Murphy: He's a therapist, parent, coach, consultant, public speaker, and trainer, among many other skills.

We were introduced by one of my inner circle people, Sarah. Thank you, Sarah. We both had to reschedule the conversation a few times, so I'm grateful we were able to make it happen. Life, right? And chatting felt like talking with an old friend.

While editing this episode, I was reminded of previous guests like Ra Ra, Charlie, and Petey. If you've listened to those conversations, I wonder if you'll hear the same threads I did.

Here are three self-reflection questions to mull over during our chat.

1. What do I need from a space to make it safer for me?

2. What's the most recent thing I learned from someone 24 or under?

3. Have I experienced ageism? How did I take it? How did it make me feel?

Remember to stick around after our conversation for three more self-reflection questions to take with you. And now, our conversation.

You are trans, a therapist, polyamorous, into leather and kink, and gay. What do all of those intersections mean to you?

[00:02:01] Kieran Mcmonagle: It was really hard for me to try and figure out, like, what it meant to be a gay man as someone that was assigned female at birth and was predominantly raised in like a hetero, cos-normative way. It was a really long process for me to figure out that I, that I could be into men, and masculinity, and be a guy.

And when I found that out, it kind of like blew up my world a little bit where I was like, like, “Wow, I'm a dude that's into dudes.” That makes way more sense than me trying to fit myself into a queer woman's box that just wasn't fitting for me.

And so having that as kind of a base, I was able to really take a deeper dive on, on what my values were in relationship. I'm like Scorpio sun, Scorpio rising, Scorpio mercury and venus; so I'm, I'm jealous by nature. And so I have a lot of values in polyamory, and there's this piece of jealousness that comes up that I'm always working with and learning more about and finding like the duality that exists in that jealousy; between like the things that are really great about it and the things that keep me away from the things that I love.

And so having that, that poly lifestyle while also being a gay man, while also being trans and all of that can be complicated, overwhelming, and exciting, and wonderful. And then when you add leather and kink onto it, leather really gave me this opportunity to step into this like, like this masculine, fun, hot, way that I finally, for one, started to feel like good and excited in my body.

I got to like be celebrated in a sexual way that I hadn't really ever experienced before, and I also got to watch other people. Like, it helped me access this piece of vulnerability that I didn't really know how to access; it was always like I put up a front, I wanted to like be cool, and you know, like stand in the back. And like it gave me this opportunity to like be more of who I am and be seen in that, from a super affirming place.

And I think leather also really helped with some of my jealousy and some of my like desire for polyamory; cause it was so normal in that community, so often. And I think sometimes we just need to know that like the ways that we want to be are like, like normal and good and valid, and it helped break down just like so much shame that I had around, “How can I be a guy?” “How can I be into leather?” “How can I be gay?” Like, “What does all this mean?”

And those intersections really helped me step into this like fuller, more grounded sense of who I am.

[00:04:29] Chris Angel Murphy: Yeah. And even just your journey of understanding yourself to be a gay man - you initially had been non-binary and genderqueer. What helped you to realize like, “Actually no, I'm a trans guy.”

[00:04:47] Kieran Mcmonagle: So I've done- so I worked at this like queer-trans youth summer camp, um, back when I was like, barely knew trans people existed, barely knew what it meant to be queer. Um, I'd been in a couple queer relationships, but was really not sure of what that meant for me. And people kept asking a lot of what that meant and I just didn't know what possibilities were out there.

Like I didn't learn about this stuff growing up; I grew up super Catholic. I got confirmed when I was 21. I like, just didn't know kind of what the expansiveness of gender, sexuality, and relationships could look like.

And I was a therapist intern and I started working at this summer camp and I just met these young people who were like, picking stuff apart, and blowing my mind, and like engaging in these relationships. And honestly, I learned so much from young people. There was this one kid that said a poem that was like, “I met this guy and I wasn't sure if I wanted to be him or fuck him.” And I was just like, “Yes, me too.”[laughs]

Chris Angel Murphy: Yes. [laughs]

Kieran Mcmonagle: It was the first time anyone ever asked me like, “What are your pronouns?”

And I was like - deer in headlights - I didn't even know in general how to say what I wanted and needed, in general, like outside of like saying who I am. And so I, I started off with just like she and they pronouns because that felt like a place I could like step into.

And for the first time in my life, people were like - kind of made an assumption I was trans without me knowing what that even meant. And that - it felt validating in a way, cause I'm someone that always felt like I needed someone to say like, Yes, you are welcome. Yes, you can come here. Yes, we want you as part of the queer community.”

Whereas, like, I always stayed really far away because like, queers are hella cute and made me feel vulnerable and made funny things happen in my stomach [laughs]. And I just was like, “Ah! That's too much vulnerability and too much fear for me.” And so it was the first place where like I felt welcome, I felt wanted, I felt like I had something to offer and I was also learning so much.

So through really connecting with people at camp and like meeting just like a ton of different, like queer, trans and being non-binary people, I was able to be like, “Oh, like I see myself here.” Right?

Like, and I, I wasn't somebody like - I don't feel like I'm somebody that was like, I don't really believe I was born in the wrong body, I believe I was born in the right queer, trans, body; and this is what a trans guy's body looks like. And so I was in a lot of like, space around just like learning what that meant.

And like there was also this piece where I felt like I needed to know something, because I was a therapist, I had a master's in psychology. Like I was - but I didn't - and so there was this piece about admitting that like, I have so much to learn that gave me this humility to be like, “You know, what does it mean to be in my body and my experience?”

So, I mean, for me it was a really long process. It wasn't like this [laughs] like, light bulb went off. I, you know, I was gender queer and non-binary and very, very strong in that identity for a few years. And so I stopped using she/her pronouns, I used they/them pronouns for a few years and I was just kind of in the, like, complexity of what it meant to be me.

I was also a brand new therapist at this point, so I did a lot of coming out around therapists, which has [laughs] launched into part of my career around teaching therapists how to not be assholes to trans people. Cause I did experience a lot of that.

I changed my name multiple times; I changed it from my birth name. Then I went by Sawyer, which is still currently my middle name for a bunch of years. And then finally was able to find my name, Kieran, which is another story. But, I think a lot of it was like, not knowing what was possible and not having a lot of examples of people around me. Like, I didn't really know any gay, trans, guys, men, dudes - whatever language feels good.

I kind of hate the word “man”, but that's a different story, so I like to say trans guy. And I didn't know anybody in the leather kink community that was existing in a space. I had like one or two people I would see here and there. Part of really being able to step into this more like binary guy identity was when I learned there was space for me.

And the, the biggest, like, mind-blowing thing was that like - and it seems so rooted in like heteronormativity - but I could be a guy that is into guys, whatever that means. Like I'm very open to what masculinity looks like, but I- it was like blowing my mind. I always thought that I would have to date women if I wanted to look or be a certain way, which is so rooted in heteronormativity and just my own internalized homophobia.

I mean, in general, I ended up getting connected with some people from the Bay Area and learning that there was just like a huge group of like trans guys out there that were like gay and into leather and I was like, “What?! [laughs] This exists?”

So the Bay Area is in California, Northern California. It's the intersection of San Francisco, Oakland, and all of the other places around. I mean, it is so rich with gay culture - beautiful place too - it just blew my mind to be honest. And I ended up moving down to Oakland, um, and setting aside being a therapist for a while.

Because I really wanted to get in connection with myself and my body and like, be like: what do I want? How do I want to need when I don't feel like I need to be performing or I don't feel like I need to know or I don't feel like I need to be an expert on something and I get to just be in connection with like- how do I want to be? What do I want my relationships to look like?

And I set aside dating. If I'm on my own, like, how do I want to be in relationships? What do I want this to look like?

[00:10:00] Chris Angel Murphy: What are some ways the leather, kink, and polyamorous communities have been affirming of you as a trans guy? And what are some ways they could be better?

[00:10:10] Kieran Mcmonagle: I think about this like time that I went to this like bear event in California. So, we were out like camping and having fun and like I was meeting people. And like I, I walk a line sometimes where I'm assumed cis, and sometimes I'm not; and sometimes I get misgendered, and sometimes I'm not. So I'm always like, I don’t know what the fuck people see sometimes.

So I was at this event and I was like, my partner was with me, I was talking to this guy who's totally flirting with me, totally checking me out. Then, like I walk into a circle within like five minutes and he's like talking shit about some genitalia that I may or may not have. And my, my partner stepped in and was like, “You were just hitting on my boy, dude. You can't be doing that and talking shit about this at the same time.”

And I think it, it really comes down to like, like judging your assumptions of what people's bodies look like, what you're into, what you're not into when it comes to like, the kink space. Like if you're attracted to somebody, like let that attraction exist. And instead of focusing on what someone may or may not have focusing on, like, what can we do with what this person has?

I always say that people don't need to know what people's genitalia looks like unless they're trying to make it have fun, and then you just need to know what it - what you need to do to make it feel good. It also comes back to like one of my other things that I was thinking about, where like when you're like dating or sleeping with or doing whatever with trans people, you don't have to like inherently question your sexuality.

Like, my partner's a cis, gay, man, he came out when he was 14 and often people ask him like, “Oh, you must be pansexual cause your partner's trans.” And he's like, “Nope, gay dude. Partner’s, a gay dude. Still a gay dude.” He doesn't have to question his sexuality; just be with a trans person.

Polyamorous community - I think. I think there's so many different ways that it can and cannot be supportive of me as a trans person. You know, like I've been in different dynamics with people where [laughs] I used to joke that my gender was perceived as whoever I was with.

So, like I didn't know what people are seeing, but if I was with a certain group of people of a certain gender, then they would just group me in with that. There's - there was something affirming about just like being in a group of guys that would go out. There were also times where I was assumed to not be in a poly- because they were all cis men, and I, uh, was not assumed cis at that time.

It's, it's interesting. I think in some ways it is really supportive; in some ways. Like, I've definitely run up against some barriers and had some hard stuff come up around it.

But the biggest piece is just being in connection and vulnerability around people and talking about shit when it's hard and like doing the work myself to do better; because like I am not perfect by any means. And then also asking other people to do work to do better in order to be supportive of each other.

[00:12:40] Chris Angel Murphy: Ageism is something that can impact trans people.

Kieran Mcmonagle: Oh yeah.

Chris Angel Murphy: Early on in my medical transition, I had a baby face - and honestly still do under my beard. And while some people listening now may think, but isn't that a good thing? You know, especially in the States, we really prioritize youth; and beauty and youth, but I don't think it's always a good thing.

And, for me it's meant having a lot of trouble with having respect from people. Like, my age, being in question, “Oh, do you really belong here? You look like a baby. You look like you're 12 or something.” You know, when I'm trying to go to a sex shop and I'm 21, you know, like, that doesn't feel great. Again, in a space that's vulnerable, why are you coming at me like that?

So people have been like hostile to me, condescending. Even early in my social work career, I feared people taking me and my work seriously. As a result, I was absolutely expecting pushback, especially from anyone older I was going to be working with potentially. So I, I saw you nodding a lot. I guess, yeah. I, I'm just curious to know: is this something you've experienced at all, and how have you navigated it?

[00:13:49] Kieran Mcmonagle: Oh, absolutely. I don’t know if people ask me how old I am these days, but I used to get it a lot.

Chris Angel Murphy: Yeah.

Kieran Mcmonagle: Especially earlier in my transition. And my answer always is like, “I'm 36.” And they'll be like, “Oh wow, you look so young for 36.” And I go, “Actually, this is what a 36 year old looks like, because I'm 36.” Right?

Chris Angel Murphy: Yes.

Kieran Mcmonagle: And then sometimes I say things like, oh, I'm sorry you forgot to wear sunscreen growing up. Um -

Chris Angel Murphy: Oh my gosh. [laughs]

Kieran Mcmonagle: Or something like that.

[00:14:14] Chris Angel Murphy: There's the gay sass coming through. Thank you.

[00:14:16] Kieran Mcmonagle: Yeah. Gotta have it in there, right? [laughs] Because, like what I hear when someone says, “you look young” is “you're unprofessional, you're not qualified, you haven't been doing this long enough. You're not seasoned enough.”

And I'm like, don't worry, I'm salty as fuck [Chris Angel laughs]. So in general, like I, I feel like I often need to throw out things like - especially in the professional world - like I've been a therapist for over 10 years and people sometimes are like, “Oh, well I thought all this queer trans talk was new, from the new therapists.”

And it's like, “No, like I've been doing this for a long time. I've worked with queer and trans youth for a long time.” But I also see other trans therapists having to feel like we need to qualify or like send out our resume to be like, “Actually, this is not new. This is something that we've been doing for a long time. We have a ton of experience doing it.”

In general, I think people do see it as a compliment, but I always see it as some kind of like, kind of like some jab to say that like, “You don't know what you're talking about. How could, how could you - like I've been, you know, I've been doing this so much longer. “And I get it less and less.

Now I kind of make a joke out of it sometimes, because like I'll get carded for just about anything, everywhere and I'll be like, “Ooh, I look under 21 for something.” And I kind of try and be playful with it. My partner, who's a couple of years younger than me, I'll be like, “I'm older.” Just because I've had to reclaim the looking young and have to throw it back at people; because if not, it just kind of gets used as a, a weapon to say that I'm not good enough.

[00:15:42] Chris Angel Murphy: There's this narrative we have perpetuated here in the states of, and I'm sure it exists in other cultures, that elders deserve respect over young people.

Kieran Mcmonagle: Mm-hmm.

Chris Angel Murphy: Because, you know, young people can't possibly have anything to offer. Just because someone's earlier in their field doesn't mean that they don't have mentors or access to resources or support, or that they don't know anything. And so just, like, discounting younger people or seemingly younger people, for whatever idea you have in your head, it feels like shit.

[00:16:15] Kieran Mcmonagle: One thing that I was thinking about when you were talking was that like in the beginning of the, the podcast I was talking about how I learned so much about my gender from young people and watching young people explore their own sense of gender. And really a lot of my career has been listening to young people and elevating their voices up and being like, “This is something I learned from a young person. Let me use my power and privilege as somebody with this education to elevate their voice and make sure they get credit for it.”

So that's been really important to me. And, also, like I have always, like, looked for people that are older than me, but, as mentors - and there's not a lot of like trans therapists that are much older than me, who have been doing this work longer than I have.

So often I sometimes feel like even though I don't have all the answers, I'm placed in this like “elder” piece while also being in this “young” piece that feel like it's like at odds at the same time, because so many trans people just don't live to be much older because of all of the hate and discrimination that existed and still exists.

[00:17:14] Chris Angel Murphy: Yeah. That actually brings me to something really crunchy that I wanted to talk with you about, because it's something I've been mulling over in my head. So, you've also shared with me before you know that being a trans elder can feel sad and lonely, especially if it feels like you don't have older adults to look up to. Where I've been struggling, is maybe even some of the ones we do have, can have problematic views, beliefs, or actions.

And so if we go back to the whole age and respect thing, I get really torn, because I also do believe in things like accountability. I don't know what it should look like. I don't want to inherently believe that people are disposable and should be canceled; but like at what point do we decide like we collectively need to remove someone's platform?

So there's a few older trans people that are in my head right now that I'm thinking of as I'm asking you this, but what steps do you think we could potentially take to ensure that elder trans people are respected and honored for their contributions to the community? Especially thinking about people born long before you and I, while also having them be held accountable for any views or action that are harmful to the trans community at large.

And I guess just to give folks examples. There can be older trans folks who are just very into the binary and don't believe in non-binary identities. Or like just be hypocrites, you know; maybe they're in the, in a sports field, and yet think that younger trans kids shouldn't be able to have access to sports and being on affirming teams and things like that.

So, I think it also just like poses: do we inherently need to respect people who have come before us? Is that something we should reevaluate? So yeah, I guess I'm asking you a lot, I'm throwing a lot at you, but where do you land with all of that?

[00:19:25] Kieran Mcmonagle: I mean, I think this in general is one of those conversations that just is the reason we need, like multi-generational spaces where we can all listen, learn and talk to each other and be in community with each other and learn from each other and like really get down to listening. Right?

Where people are at and how we can learn from each other. Cause I'm sure there's things that I can learn from someone's experience who's older and younger. And like, I mean, I, I learn so much from young people all the time - and I do feel sometimes that there's like a, a disconnect from people that are older than me and trans.

I don't, I honestly don't have a lot of people in my life that are not my peers. Like it's my peers and younger. I feel like, what are the steps we can take? First, I'd have to know like, who they are, if they want to be in connection with me, or if they want to have multi-generational spaces, or if they want to learn from all of us that are out there.

I don't know if I have a good answer for it, to be honest. Like I think that there. So much opportunity and like how do we create the spaces where we're not creating more space to harm each other?

[00:20:32] Chris Angel Murphy: Yeah, and I, I think the reason why this is more top of mind for me is because there are folks who are in positions of power, who have large platforms that are causing a great deal of harm.

And you know, maybe it's really easy for me to sit here chatting with you and feel that I'm on the right side of history, but they think they are too.

Kieran Mcmonagle: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Chris Angel Murphy: And so most of the time we're just fighting to be right and not to listen to each other. And I, I've previously been on a panel that was meant to connect the generations, except like the entire middle generation was completely absent from that conversation.

So it was mostly. folks in their early twenties and then folks, I want to say like 60 and up. I could be getting that wrong.

Kieran Mcmonagle: Mm-hmm.

Chris Angel Murphy: But I was like, yeah, “Where are the people in their thirties and forties?” For example, like, those people were just not in the room. And yeah, so like I am open to those conversations cause part of me doesn't want to lose our history and our stories.

Kieran Mcmonagle: Mm-hmm.

Chris Angel Murphy: And I also want us to be able to share ideas and just connect - and not everything has to be for the sake of like, activism or politics - but you know. We know that so many older folks, just broadly in the LGBTQ+ community, can be isolated. You know, there's not a lot of protections for them, especially if they didn't like end up getting married or things like that. A lot of them end up having to like go back into the closet, for example.

So like, I hate thinking that there's all these, you know, lovely humans that are isolated because here again in the states, we just like dispose of our elder. Yeah, so yeah, it's just like a mind fuck.

But here's the thing, like the older I get and the more I learn about myself, I'm kind of prided out. I don't really want to go to a pride event anymore. Yeah, you're, you're shaking your head [both laugh]. You know, and especially if they're like capitalist and everything.

Kieran Mcmonagle: Absolutely.

Chris Angel Murphy: But I do want to be in community with people and like you said, and you're not the first person to, to share this with me, but I love that you shared it.

Because I think there are a lot of folks who are a little bit older and are learning from younger people about the community and different identities and are getting empowered from their energy and fired up and yeah, getting to learn so much more about themselves and it - that's why I come back to God. I just, I love the queer lifestyle and I, I do want to intentionally call it a lifestyle cause I really think it is one -

Kieran Mcmonagle: Totally

Chris Angel Murphy: - by definition. But yeah, that like, we don't have to uphold hierarchies that can be harmful or unnecessary in that, yeah, we can absolutely learn from like young people as well.

[00:23:18] Kieran Mcmonagle: Mm-hmm. As I was brainstorming the tips, one of the ones that was coming up for me was like: how, when we have - so me and my partner are thinking and hoping to make a family and have kids and try and figure out that whole queer family lifestyle - and one of the things I think about is like when I, when I have a kid, like I want - like I don't know anything about them, they get to teach me so much about who they are growing up. And I get this opportunity to learn who this tiny young person is.

And like when I was thinking about some allyship, I was also thinking about like, you know, part of being an ally, like if you're a parent, starts when you have a baby. To not put all these assumptions of who they're going to be, how they're going to be, what they're going to be like on them, and just be like, “Wow, I can't wait for you to teach me all of this cool shit. You're going to teach me about who you are. And just like, not coming - even at that basic step of parenting -from any assumptions about who this young person, this gift, is to you, so.

[00:24:05] Chris Angel Murphy: For anyone who gets enraged looking at the gender reveals, especially the ones that end up causing harm, like polluting people's water sources for fuck's sake. Like, really? Or they die because they did something not very smart and like was it really worth your life to like – anyway.

But something that's been coming up for me that's even more enraging than that is gender disappointment videos; where like the dad, in particular, will just have toxic masculinity flowing through him and just be like so upset, for example, that maybe he's having a daughter or something. It's just gross, like to me, like, don't have a kid then if you can't love this tiny human unconditionally for the course of their life or for the course of your lifetime, rather.

Kieran Mcmonagle: Absolutely.

Chris Angel Murphy: It's just bonkers to me.

Kieran Mcmonagle: Mm-hmm.

Chris Angel Murphy: You've told me before that using someone's name and pronouns is how we can tell people we love them. And I loved that so much. I think it's one of the most beautiful ways I've heard of that particular messaging. What's the best way someone close to you can tell you that they love you if they wanted to take their allyship to the next level?

[00:25:20] Kieran Mcmonagle: I think a lot of it has to do with like, deconstructing their own idea of gender in themselves and how they see not just me as a trans, well, me and my history of gender as a person.

Like, I feel like I have always been in my gender in this way no matter how I've looked and it makes sense to me that I grew up from the person that I was into the person that I am. Like, that to me is like a fluid, like, “Oh, of course. Like look at him when he was that age and now he is, looks like this.” Even though I was pretty femme when I was younger.

So like deconstructing that idea of like, “Oh, Kiran has always been this way.” There's no, there's nothing really new. There's not really any new information. Like the way I act isn't like any gender, like a girl or a boy. I just am who I am and that is who I am. So kind of like doing that internal work to like see all people in that way, not just me.

Also things like, I guess this isn't really necessarily with someone who loves me, but like, in general, like not asking me my pronouns only when you clock me as trans. That's something that's been coming up a lot for me recently. It's like, ask everyone their pronouns all the time. Don't wait till you're like, “Oh, that's a trans person. I need to ask them.”

Cause that is really infuriating to me. Making sure that you're talking to other people about how to support and love trans people is a way that you can kind of take some of that labor off of my shoulders. And that way you're telling the world like “I'm seeing you.”

Like, I like to say that, like, I watch people and like people can say things over and over like, “I love you Kieren. I love you, Kieren,” But I'm going to keep watching what you're doing and that's how I'm going to really know that you love me. Right? So when I see you out in the world talking about how to support trans kids, like, to me, you're saying over and over again like, “I love you. I see you. I want you to have a really great life.”

Always. I really come back to like, how do we do the internal work around breaking down like gender and gender binaries and our assumptions of gender and our toxic masculinity and I'll throw in our toxic positivity, cause I'm always trying to break that shit down too.

Chris Angel Murphy: Hell yeah.

Kieran Mcmonagle: Yeah. Doing your own personal work really, like, just makes me feel loved and supported. But not doing it in a performative way. Like sometimes I will like see people say “Kieren” and then look at me like, “Are you going to tell me I did a good job?” No, I'm not going to tell you, uh, you did a good job. I'm just going to feel good and let it slide. Because even me praising you is an act of emotional labor that is exhausting.

Sometimes something that makes me feel loved is just to not talk about gender and to just see me. And recently I've been sitting in a lot of like, what else do I like to do? What else do I like to talk about? Cause I feel like people just want to talk to me about like gender sexuality all the time and I'm like, I do that all the time for work. Can we like, I dunno, go on a walk, look at the stars. [laughs] We're like -

[00:28:03] Chris Angel Murphy: Is that a hint? Are you like trying to end the interview? I'm [laughs]

[00:28:08] Kieran Mcmonagle: No, not at all. Not at all [both laugh]. I've just been thinking a lot about like, you know, who else am I outside of just being trans? Because I think because of the work that I do and how I exist in the world, people put that on me a lot. And I'm like, I do other things and like other things. Um, that's not the biggest part of who I am either.

[00:28:28] Chris Angel Murphy: Yeah. I definitely have a friend that's in my mind that is the friend who sends me the videos, the articles, et cetera. And I’m like “Okay.” [laughs] Like -

[00:28:40] Kieran Mcmonagle: Or even like when people meet me, like getting introduced to like people's families and X, Y, or Z, it's like, oh, they just want to tell me about all the trans people they know. And I'm like, “Why don't we talk about this witchy tarot deck over here? That's really cool.”

[00:28:56] Chris Angel Murphy: [laughs] What challenges have you faced as a therapist, especially as a trans therapist, and how have you adapted your approach to better serve your clients, while also taking good care of yourself?

[00:29:11] Kieran Mcmonagle: That's a great question. So I stepped away from being a therapist for a couple of years while I really stepped into my own medical transition, because of all of the energy that was coming at me. It was just really hard to be like, how can I be in myself and knowing who I am and also being asked all these questions all the time, and also processing other people's experience of gender, all the time.

But you know, people have challenged my, whether or not I'm a capable therapist. I - people often will call me like the quote unquote” gender therapist” and I always say I'm just a mental health therapist. I know a lot about supporting people through transitions. I know a lot about my own experience of gender. But in general, the interventions I'm using are - I'm just supporting people through their own experience of anxiety and depression as it's related to their experience of gender.

So I think that there's like some microaggressions that will come up, “Well, this is the gender therapist” or “This is what this- ” and I'm capable of so many other things. I have a huge resume. I have all of these different populations that I've worked with. Um, and although I love, love, love working with queer, trans folks, I also really love working with folks on all different kinds of relationship dynamics and of different genders.

There's also a piece around just being challenged on like, “How do you know this?” Like “What education, what certification do you have in order to be a queer, trans, therapist?” And I always come back to: I think lived experience is people's niche. I think lived experience is the most valuable education you can have. Cause I mean, I lived my whole life as a queer trans person, even though if I didn't even necessarily know what that meant for a while. And all of the labor I did to learn about what that meant for myself is decades longer than any one- or two-hour training or certification program. I could sit through.

I also come up against some barriers, or some like - my own, like, sometimes people will want me to create like a certification program for working with queer and trans folks. And I always get a, like - I never want to certify someone in, like, the lived experience of someone else.

I, I have to do a lot of educating around my own politics, around what I will and will not do and why I will and will not do things. I think the ageism piece is huge. I feel like I'm perceived much younger than I am, and when I say how old I am, people are like, “Really?!” Which is interesting; these days I own it. When I was earlier in my career, that was much, much harder for me.

The biggest challenge that I've experienced, especially earlier in my career, but still happens now, is that I'm working and sitting with the same oppression that I experience all day, every day, with my clients. So I'm, I'm sitting in the microaggressions of my client's experience and hearing about it; and that is traumatizing.

I love it. I wouldn’t change it for the world, but it is hard, at times, to sit and listen and then the listening isn't nearly as hard as the leaving and then experiencing those same microaggressions again towards myself. So it feels like no matter, like, you're in the world experiencing the microaggressions and you're sitting with people supporting them through the microaggressions.

One of the biggest things that's helped me as a provider that has like, like almost done a 180 in this is I became a telehealth provider and now I feel like there's this like just I have a much better ability to separate my own body and energetic self from my clients - so that they can - I can just like, walk away and it's easier for me to wipe, kind of, that off.

That also being said, I think that there is a piece that makes my life easier in a way because I'm ci s-assumed and I am okay with he/him pronouns so that I don't have to experience that same level of microaggression that I was experiencing when I identified as non-binary.

[00:32:38] Chris Angel Murphy: When you see symbolism such as a safe space sticker or a trans flag in the window of a business - and you're already shaking your head no - what goes through your head?

[00:32:49] Kieran Mcmonagle: That's kind of what goes through my head at first [both laugh]. You know, because I always say that people can put up all kinds of signage - like, I mean, you can see my office right now, I don't have any signage that says like “safe space” like trans flag, queer stuff.

One, because I feel like flags are a sign of colonialism and are rooted in like this whiteness. So I already get a little bit like when I see flags in general. And so I'm, I'm not somebody that loves. Pride flags. Like people can put a flag on anything and I don't know if their behavior's going to match this flag. Like what have they done to earn this? Like, are they a queer, trans provider?

I - like if queer, trans, providers want to have - or especially trans providers – want to have like a trans flag, I'm like, “Yes, get it. That's yours. You're owning that. That's part of who you are.” And like, I really want behavior to match signage. Right? So like, I have so often gone into spaces that have clear, really like LGBTQ+ safe space signage, and I want to know like, what have you done?

I don't believe that safe space exists because of cultural homophobia, transphobia, racism, all of the intersections of oppression that like - we cannot, I, I cannot make a space safe. Especially just like as a white, masculine, dude, cis-assumed person, like I may cause harm just by existing in a space. So there's no way to have a totally safe space for everybody involved. So to me it feels a little bit like a cop out. Like you're like, “It's safe.” But I'm like, “What does safety mean? What does safety look like? What's your definition of safety and how could you even do it?”

Because I just don't think it exists. So people will ask me sometimes, like, “What's the perfect signage to have in my therapy office?” I kind of go on that rant and let people choose what feels good to them.

There's also a piece where I have, um, someone, some people that I work with, like do consulting with, that it's really important for them to have some kind of flag, for lack of a better word, not actually a flag, but like some kind of like hint that they're LGBTQ+ affirming. Because they, they live in such a conservative place, that like no one would bring it up unless there's like a hint or a- and they have to be like really secretive about their hints.

Like they don't get to just put flags up, like that's like a rainbow this or a rainbow that. And it's just like, people be like, “Is that, like, a rainbow?” Which to me has also been a learning lesson, that; there is an importance to it. But there's also a question I have: that what are you doing to actually like make this space inclusive of all queer and trans folks?

[00:35:02] Chris Angel Murphy: For me, I just find that I tend to get disappointed when I go into a physical location that has, let's say, a rainbow sticker, for example, because it's usually, it's just like how you talked about the actions and the behaviors that you're, you're looking for.

If I don't then see you asking for pronouns on the intake paperwork, or if people are, you know, assuming I'm a guy right off the bat and using he/him pronouns for me and everything, like you've just proven that this is all performative and maybe you're friendly, but that they're also missing different letters under the initialism of LGBTQ+.

So, it's just really disappointing. So sometimes maybe, yeah they’re gay-friendly. Maybe if, like, a gay couple, like that looks like a gay couple, whatever the hell that means, enters like, “Oh yeah, that we're not going to make you feel bad or ask you to leave or something” - that's great, but maybe that's all your flag is actually saying, or whatever symbolism you're using.

So yeah, I find more often than not, I just get really disappointed..

Kieran Mcmonagle: Mm-hmm. .

Chris Angel Murphy: And yeah. Like you said, there's just no way to know, unless maybe it's on their website or something, that, you know, staff are trained and this is how you will be treated. This is how you can expect to be treated when you enter our establishment or use our services, et cetera, and here's what you can do. Here's who you can contact and report it to, et cetera.

It's mixed cause I do like to see it. I just know that it's not going to be the standards I'm expecting.

Kieran Mcmonagle: Right.

Chris Angel Murphy: In your work with coaching parents, how do you help guide parents to support their trans children while also managing their own feelings of uncertainty or fear?

[00:36:48] Kieran Mcmonagle: Yeah, this - that what you just said - is the thing that almost all parents come to me with, right? Because it's okay for parents to have their process and be scared. Like, that's probably one of the first things I tell parents, like, “I'm so glad you're here and it's okay to have your own process and your own, just like [exasperated expression] overwhelmed about what's, what's new information to you.”

You know, the first thing I tend to tell parents is like, like, “Wow, your kid told you. That means they trust you. That means that they want you to know who they are, and they want to share this like, really amazing, important, awesome thing about who they are. How did you do that? How did you build that trust with your kid? Because that in and of itself is a huge strength.

I tend to come at parents when they're coming to me for coaching from a place of like, they chose me to be their coach, which means that they really, really want to be affirming and they're trying to figure out how. Whether or not they're,- it feels affirming in the beginning or not - they're coming to me and I'm a trans person, a gender-affirming therapist. So the fact that a parent chose me is a huge strength in and of itself.

I mean, I kind of sit with parents in the process, like, they know their kid better than I do, and I'm just here to help guide them. Their kid is saying, “This is a way that you can love me, and let me tell you how.”

So I almost frame it kind of as a love language. Like, we're practicing identity, right? So adolescents are absolutely in a place of like trying stuff on, and I think parents can like, like that a little bit. Like, “Okay, let's practice this; let's try this on, and we're learning and trying on different names and pronouns that's a great place to start.”

I also named it like, kids have been thinking about this for a really, really, really, really, really, really, really long time before they tell parents. So it often makes sense that the kid is like further along than the parents are. Okay, that makes sense, like they've done a lot of thinking on this before they tell us; cause it's a big thing to tell your parents.

I do a lot of like, how do we create your home as a place that is quote unquote “The safest place for the queer trans kids to come to.” Because it's - we want it to be the place where they can practice names, they can practice identities, and they know that they will be affirmed in your house no matter what. Because kids are going to find those places that they feel affirmed and if it's not what their parents, they’re going to find at somewhere else.

And so I kind of just start there. And with the parents in their process, I listen a lot, I validate a lot, I focus on the parent's strengths a lot. Usually when I'm doing parent coaching, I do meet the kid at some time. Sometimes I'm working with the kid and then doing parent coaching on the side without the kid present. Because one of the biggest things is parents are allowed to have their process. What they're not allowed to do is have that process on top of their kid.

They should not be processing their feelings about their kid's transition with them. They should love, support the kid and have your process of being scared and unsure with me. Have your process being scared and unsure with someone else that's going to really hold and validate you. Cause it's okay to be scared, but it's not okay to tell the kid that they're not good enough as they are.

[00:39:47] Chris Angel Murphy: There's different kinds of families, there's different arrangements. There can be multiple co-parents involved, be it because of like stepparents, et cetera. A parent comes to you because the partner or a co-parent isn't on board and it's really hurting the family dynamic. How do you help the dynamics where not everyone in the family is on board with embracing their kid, for who they are?

[00:40:21] Kieran Mcmonagle: A lot of that work is ends up being individual with a supporting parent and like, them coming to me, getting space to feel held and supported so that they can kind of decrease some of their own anger, frustration, anxiety, all of that overwhelm that's coming up.

And then coaching them on ways to have some of those harder conversations with the people that are not being as affirming. And some people will be in the conversation and some people won't. And sometimes it is like, how - how do we protect the kid as the most important piece? How do we make sure the kid knows that they are affirmed as much as possible?

Sometimes the person that's not affirming will come in. I've had some amazing moments where I thought a parent that wasn't affirming all of a sudden came in and all of a sudden like was - like, was more affirming. And sometimes I think it feels like magic. There's other times where that's just never going to happen. And so then it really is more about like, okay, how do we make sure that this person is protected?

Sometimes the conversations can happen and growth can happen. A lot of it takes a lot of time and a lot of patience and a lot of grief. How do we process the grief if one parent's not supporting?

I like to think about like, relationships. This is how this kid is saying like, I want you to love me. And so how do we continue to highlight that piece? And hopefully, someone will turn around and, and maybe they won't. And then there's grief in: what if you never have the relationship with your parent that you want to have? Or what if you never have the relationship with another co-parent that you want to have? Or what is, what's it going to be like if they never are supporting of your young?

There's no one way that this is always going to be better or someone's going to be affirming, but like the best that we can do is like be in community connection and like be seen and validated and give some techniques and ways to have these conversations.

Like, I always come back to strength and love. I think that that's a message that parents can really hear .Because, really, like our job as parents is to, to love our kids and make sure we keep them safe and how can we do that while letting them know themselves the best.

[00:42:21] Chris Angel Murphy: Yeah, I think it just gets really tricky cause sometimes it can get pretty ugly, pretty quickly. I think of -

Kieran Mcmonagle: Absolutely.

Chris Angel Murphy: Yeah. I think of the, like, let's say the supportive parent, who is like questioning, “Am I doing the wrong thing by backing up my child? Am I harming them, et cetera.” And then - that, let's say co-parent or partner is saying, “You know, you're abusing our kid.”, or “I'm not going to stand for this, or I'm going to sue you for custody and make sure that they can't, you know, medically transition - if that's something they want to do - or transition in any way.”

And it's just awful. And then that supportive parent sometimes - and I'm not saying this always happens, you know, and I, I don't want to like, you know, lean into the fear of that - but it is sometimes a decision that needs to be made where if they are going to try to work out the marriage or if they're going to drop the marriage and just focus on taking care of their kid.

Because it can really shock people, like the ugliness that can come out of when a kid shares who they are, it's like you think you know your partner, and then all of a sudden you're just seeing this different side of them and just maybe feel so far away from them.

And I just imagine as a parent that's maybe in that position just how lonely and isolating that feels for everybody. And then meanwhile, the kid's like, “I caused this” maybe, or you know, has like whatever story's going on in their head. It's just like no one wins in these situations.

[00:43:46] Kieran Mcmonagle: Absolutely. And, like the kid will turn 18 eventually and be able to make all of these decisions on their own -and then where does that leave your relationship with your young person or your adult, at that point? Right? Like what kind of relationship do you want to have?

And also, sometimes I'll, I'll talk to parents about how, like we want our kids to tell us who they are. We want them to stand up for themselves. We want them to be able to not be knocked down. Like, there's so many things that, there's so much strength in coming out that these kids like have to have, that the parents instilled at them at a young age.

And I'm like, “You did this, you gave them the skills to be able to be really grounded at who they are. Wow. How did you do that?”

[00:44:26] Chris Angel Murphy: For parents who are struggling to understand and support their trans child, what do you think is a good starting point for them in doing the work of loving their kid unconditionally?

[00:44:43] Kieran Mcmonagle: The biggest piece of advice, I think, is that your kid knows themselves better than anyone else. They know who they are, and they're letting you in, into a piece of information about who they are. And that just means that you've, that you've developed a trusting relationship with them.

And so to really be in that love and trust, let the young person lead and guide, while also offer, offering support and curiosity. The biggest piece, just like listen to young people and know that they have a shit ton of knowledge and that they're really smart and that they really do know who they are. And that like, part of adolescent development is learning about who you are.

This, this is all like, sometimes people will be like, “Well, it's too young for them to learn their gender.” And then I'll ask parents like, “Well, how old were you when you learned your gender? Who taught you your gender? What did your gender exploration look like?” And they might be like, well, that wasn't something we did.

And I'm like, yeah, me neither, so I learned later. But now young people are doing the age-appropriate, developmentally appropriate, like, exploration now. So how cool is this? This is going to help them step into more of who they are, younger.

[00:45:50] Chris Angel Murphy: I know that working directly with youth, I just feel like, especially when I first got out of my social work program, like out of grad school

Kieran Mcmonagle: Mm-hmm.

Chris Angel Murphy: I just felt like I was consulting Urban Dictionary more than any of the grad books I read or anything like that.

What's one allyship tip you'd like everyone listening to consider?

[00:46:11] Kieran Mcmonagle: The biggest allyship tip comes back down to, like, how we apologize to people. Like, apologizing isn't easy. For me, it's all about a report on a change of behavior and then to watch that behavior change.

I don't need to hear people over and over again saying, “Oh, I'm sorry I misgendered you.” I just don't want to be misgendered. I just want to watch people's behavior shift and change.

So when I think about apologies, I think about, like, saying sorry, report on the change of the behavior, and then I want to watch that behavior change. And I think that’s the biggest way that allyship can continue to make me feel good and also can help all trans folks out there.

[00:46:45] Chris Angel Murphy: Thank you so much for your vulnerability. Because you're a therapist, your willingness to share so much of your story and own your various intersections is helping to push back against archaic ideas of professionalism that can harm communities like ours.

So openly discussing your connection to kink and leather, as examples, helps to normalize it for other folks. And I'm sure there are people who would clutch their pearls at your tattoos being so visible too. But on behalf of little me, I also want to thank you for doing the work of coaching parents through loving their trans and non-binary children unconditionally.

It's something that I wish my own family would've sought out. The topic of symbols like flags have come up before on the podcast, and if you listened to Ed's episode, you would have heard how he has a completely different relationship to them. Spoiler alert, he's a huge fan.

And yet I'm reminded that visibility can be scary. I was recently driving on Interstate 70 and my car overheated and broke down. It was hard to get over safely, but then a second pang of fear sent a wave of panic all over my body. When I call for a tow, what if the person dispatched is homophobic? Would he leave me in the freezing cold to have to wait for another driver? Would something worse happen?

After getting it towed to my apartment a few days later, I had to tow it over to the amazing folks at Good Judy Garage here in the greater Denver, Colorado area. The person who helped me that time definitely saw my queer bumper sticker and magnet on my car and let out a laugh that made me uneasy.

Fuck, was it happening? Out of abundant caution, I emailed the shop to let them know it was on the way, and if they could email me back that it got there safely. It did, and I let out a sigh of relief, but I still didn't like that reaction. I translated it to” not this shit again,” but for all I know that's not what he was thinking at all.

Still, it didn't feel like a positive reaction, and some of you may be thinking, “Well, Chris Angel, if it's causing you so much grief why not just remove the bumper, sticker and magnet?” And the answer is: I can't. I don't want to continue to live my life in fear. And even if that means constantly having to work through that tension, it just feels better this way.

That said, be sure to check out the episode page for a list of LGBTQ+ camps. There are ones for youth, family, and adults only, and some of them are virtual only, too, to have some safer options. And if that's not your jam, similarly, I have a list of conferences across the United States. All of them are LGBTQ+ specific in some way and could be a really great opportunity for networking and learning something new.

And lastly, I will also link to Good Judy Garage. So if you're in the Denver area, or even a little bit further out, I think they're worth making the trek. I didn't realize how important it was for me to go to a car mechanic that I could feel like I could trust, not only with my money and my car, and to give me an honest and fair quote for work that needs to be done, but also that I don't have to worry about homophobia or transphobia.

And now that I've talked long enough, here are the last three self-reflection questions.

4. Have I ever entered a business that has displayed a rainbow flag, sticker, or maybe other LGBTQ+ symbol? Did it shift my opinion of them? If so, in what way?

5. Do I trust or believe that kids know who they are?

6. If I plan on having children with a partner, do I know how they would feel about having a kid that's part of the LGBTQ+ community?

Visit AllyshipIsAVerb.com for any resources in a full transcript of the episode. And remember, sometimes allyship means that the best apology is changed behavior.