[00:17] Chris Angel Murphy

Well, hello there. My name is Chris Angel and my pronouns are they/them. Welcome to Allyship is a Verb, the LGBTQ+ podcast that explores and humanizes practicing allyship for the LGBTQ+ community and beyond!

[00:38] Petey Gibson

Hello, this is Petey Gibson, my pronouns are he/him.

[00:41] Chris Angel Murphy

Whew! I am currently in Boise, Idaho for a bit. It's fairly similar to Colorado, where I currently live, especially in terms of scenery and weather—trying to keep it to the little blue bubble [laughs]—where I've now seen a few rainbow stickers on cars, which is very nice. Anyway, on the 16th, I was preparing a training session for therapists, and all of a sudden, I had an epiphany about my gender. I feel comfortable sharing about half of what I came up with right now, because the other half requires more time for me to sit with it. But I am now adopting neuroqueer as part of my identities. This is big because, in short, some of you know I was late-diagnosed with both ADHD and autism.

[00:41] Chris Angel Murphy

Now that I know this about myself, it's easier for me to recognize that pretty much every decision I make about my gender and gender expression is through my sensory lens. Meaning my hair is short because it's a wash-and-go style. I don't wear makeup because I hate the way it feels on my face. I prefer clothing that's more comfortable and less likely to make me itchy. Even gender-affirming surgeries and hormones are to help with sensory experiences I had previously that felt awful. Anyway, that's just a little bit of it. But I wanted to share that with all of you for now because I think a very specific chain of events has occurred to lead me to this moment. And it's really exciting because I couldn't explain my motivations for gender and gender expression previously.

[02:08] Chris Angel Murphy

Anyway, on to my guest. Petey Gibson is an LA-based, Boston-bred, trans comedian, actor, producer, and writer. You may have seen him on TV on such shows as "Broad City," "Grace and Frankie," and "Transparent." He was also in the Emmy-nominated doc-miniseries "This is Me" and Mastercard’s True Name® commercial, the first all-trans commercial of its kind. We’ll talk a bit about how he co-produced and starred in the award-winning indie feature “The Sympathy Card.” And there’s a few reasons why it’s special.

[02:27] Chris Angel Murphy

If you're a regular listener, you know that I've geeked out over Camp Brave Trails before, of which he spearheaded their theater program, which is pretty rad. Petey and I were introduced by Jaffe, who was on season one, and Petey, Jaffe, and Provvidenza all work on Them Fatale, a drag show in LA that fundraises for local LGBTQ+ causes. And now they all have their own episodes, which is pretty rad. Thank you, Jaffe, for the introduction.

[03:27] Chris Angel Murphy

A quick content warning. This episode talks a bit about LGBTQ+ youth suicide statistics, as well as being kicked out by family.

[03:48] Chris Angel Murphy

And now three self-reflections before we dive into the conversation and be sure to stick around after the conversation for three more.

1. What are my views on masculinity? What do I think healthy masculinity looks like?
2. Do I think soft skills are only for girls and women?
3. What do I do to make safer spaces for people in my life who are sober?

[04:23] Chris Angel Murphy

And now our conversation.

[04:26] Chris Angel Murphy

You are a transmasc creator who is an actor, writer, and producer. What do those intersections mean to you?

[04:34] Petey Gibson

Those intersections come both out of necessity and also out of my interest in having my hands in a lot of things. So it's—I've sort of always made my own work. Part of that is because a lot of rules haven't existed for me; but also, I come from a live theater, underground, variety drag king background in Boston, which has a really vibrant underground art scene. And so I, rather than like having gone to college for acting, I came up in a place where it was like—I was, you know, co-creating and building stuff from scratch and sort of, there were no rules, we could sort of make whatever we could think up. So I feel really excited that that was my college, basically, so that I don't feel pigeonholed into one thing.

[05:26] Chris Angel Murphy

That sounds like a dream.

[05:28] Petey Gibson

It's delightful and exhausting. And I would love more money, but I do love my life. [both laugh]

[05:33] Chris Angel Murphy

Yes, yes to all of that.

[05:38] Petey Gibson

Yeah.

[05:39] Chris Angel Murphy

We see a lot of examples of toxic masculinity, but masculinity in itself isn't toxic. So what or who inspires you to tap into the masculinity that you embody, and how would you describe yours?

[05:55] Petey Gibson

Ooo, good question. Um, yeah, I agree that masculinity is not inherently toxic, and I really fuck with gentle masculinity. I really enjoy it. I would say, you know, Mr. Rogers is an enormous inspiration for me in the way that I talk to children and in the way that I conduct myself as a man. I think that he was somebody that was like, "Hey, not only do we have feelings, and should we have feelings, but if we don't find a way to express our feelings, we're going to be sick." And so, for me, Mr. Rogers is a great example of masculinity. Karamo Brown is a really great example of masculinity for me—big fan of Karamo.

[06:45] Petey Gibson

I'm also working recently on trying to get a project out with Justin Baldoni, who does "The Man Enough Podcast," and that has been an incredible example of like, cis men doing the work for themselves by themselves. Or not necessarily, because he really invites in all these other voices, but it is nice to feel cis, straight, people saying like, "Hey, something has to change." So, Justin's a really good example for me as well.

[07:13] Chris Angel Murphy

Last season, we talked about the Alok episode, because it's just like one of those must-listen-to episodes for anyone.

[07:20] Petey Gibson

Everyone.

[07:21] Chris Angel Murphy

Yeah.

[07:21] Petey Gibson

For everyone, it's incredible. What a dialogue.

[07:24] Chris Angel Murphy

Wow. Well, I'm not gonna ask you, "Can you tell us anything about the project?" Because I know [both laugh] sometimes those things are like under wraps. So I'll just skip that. But—

[07:32] Petey Gibson

It is under wraps, but I hope I can talk about it soon because that means I've sold it!

[07:37] Chris Angel Murphy

Yes, fingers crossed. You get offered roles that are for cisgender men, as well as trans men or maybe transmasc folks. Are there any differences between when you play a transman or masc character versus a cisgender one?

[07:52] Petey Gibson

Yeah, the cis dudes get to be like dudes in a boardroom, doctors, or they're like defined by what they have to say in a room. And usually the trans roles are talking about being trans, which is kind of a bummer. I guess that's where society is, I forget that so many people still don't know a trans person because I am surrounded [laughs] by them. And so I sometimes feel like I'm in the Twilight Zone when I'm like, the only trans person in the room or when people like haven't heard of it, or need a one-on-one, which is why I'm committed to doing these podcasts also to sort of, you know—I like to encourage curiosity. And so if folks are curious, like, I'm happy to be the first trans person that you know, so that's fine. But yes, the role—the content of the roles, are very different. So—

[08:43] Chris Angel Murphy

You did an interview with ExBulletin and talked about how you're a trans man promoting a film, "The Sympathy Card," in which you played a lesbian. How does that conversation typically go during like promos and interviews? And what support do you have in place to help with any potential awkward or uncomfortable conversations?

[09:04] Petey Gibson

Yeah, so the last big project I did before transitioning was a film that I starred in and produced, called "The Sympathy Card." It's a feature-length, lesbian romcom, about cancer and other things, and shot at my hometown, and that was—what a way to go out! [laughs] Couldn't ask—because I came of age as a lesbian in Boston—and so being able to make just a love letter to that time in my life was really beautiful. And then, I started transitioning, and then a pandemic hit and cut short our festival run—we were slated for international festivals—and we got six months into it and everything shut down.

[09:40] Petey Gibson

And so I am now a, you know, quote, unquote, like "passing," bearded, [laughs] dude promoting my lesbian film. And so me and my co-producer realized really quickly that we needed to just incorporate it as part of like, almost like a human interest story in our promotions. Which, I'm really fine with and really, really open talking about this. So, for me, our plan was always to lead with it and that was almost like a point of interest, like, "Hey, here's a bunch of things that haven't been done before." We haven't seen this type of film. We haven't seen this behind-the-scenes story. You know, we had 75% Women/queer/BIPOC crew. So like, it's simply part of our storytelling. And in terms of if I have something in place, like emotionally, no, because it's my life [laughs]. I'm used to it.

[10:31] Chris Angel Murphy

Well, I wish that weren't the case [Petey laughs]. But yeah, so like, I hear what you're saying. And I'm hearing that, like, you have to come with disclaimers or frontloading.

[10:40] Petey Gibson

In terms of PR, it's simply just messy and confusing. If I don't, it's—

[10:46] Petey Gibson

You know, when I do talkbacks at screenings, and people watch the film, and then I come up there, I immediately say, like, "Hey, by the way, I have a beard now," you know, we just have a laugh and—but I think otherwise, then your audience is going, "Wait, what? What's happening?" And it's not transphobic, it's simply confusing.

[11:04] Chris Angel Murphy

Yeah.

[11:04] Petey Gibson

So it is a little tough for me, you know—apart from like, my pride in the film, my pride in everyone that worked on it, you know, the great credits and the great all of that—it is a little tough, just as a trans person to do a lot of screenings and talkbacks and promotions where my pre-transition face and body is like all over the poster and, you know, all over the trailer. So that's like, it's that's a little bit of a reckoning for me. But I, I guess I do have in place like, other transmasc creatives that I've talked to, because it's just sort of part of it, you know? My acting reel has 10 years of work. So what are you going to do? It's a little tough to [laughs] have a career that is so front-facing.

[11:52] Chris Angel Murphy

Yeah. Because in some ways, I can imagine it may feel awkward to take up space as a white man, right?

[11:58] Petey Gibson

And so for me, I think, life is complicated. And queer identities are complicated. I, I was a lesbian. I don't—I was a little girl, I'm so excited I was raised a little girl, because I've got a lot of soft skills [laugh] that I think men, cis men my age do not. So I'm grateful for that. And, also, sometimes it would really be nice to just exist as I am now. That's not usually a luxury that I have, but I'm also really proud to be out and model, not only what it can look like for younger trans people, but what it can look like for people my age, who are not trans, who simply want to grab their life and live it how they see they should.

[12:52] Petey Gibson

Yeah. Yeah, you know, life is complex, and life is long. And we've, you know, we've always had words to describe this outside of trans people, like we have midlife crisis. You know, like that—we acknowledge that, in general, people do not stay the same for 80 years. People, you know, go abroad, people are able to talk about, like, "Oh, that was the year that I hiked through the Andes." Or "This was—" you know, "Then I had children and my life really slowed down, but then they graduated. Now I have an empty nest." Like, we—we have all these things, that's, that's simply how it is.

[13:20] Petey Gibson

It's so hard to me that trans people are being just ravaged in the media and through laws and are just being targeted. Because I'm like, I think trans people got it figured out: to be a person who can look so deep inside yourself and know that what you have been told by everyone around you is not quite right and to be out loud and say, "Actually, I need to make a change. And I'm going to do it, because I know that it's the right thing." Like, literally, how beautiful would our world be if everyone would do that? It doesn't have to be about gender. If people could leave their hometowns or go for the job that they've always wanted or [sighs] whatever, just, it's a bummer. Because I think I think we're models and we're being held up as monsters. And I'm like, "But that's not quite true, is it?"

[13:20] Chris Angel Murphy

Exactly. So you came out as a lesbian at 17. And I'm wondering if there's anything you miss about being in the lesbian community?

[14:19] Petey Gibson

Oh my god. Yes. What a fucking nightmare to like, leave the warm bosom of like women's-only spaces [both laugh] to fucking hang out with like, domestic terrorists? Like what am I doing being a white man instead of being a woman? [emphatic sigh] This is how you know that trans is not a choice [Chris Angel laughs] because I—[both laugh]

[14:43] Petey Gibson

Yes, I really love women's-only spaces. I love the way that—I think it has to do a lot with how we raise girls versus how we raise boys. There is so much emotional understanding amongst women that is, you know, a really beautiful silver lining to the patriarchy: we do such disservice to young girls and young women and women. But in those spaces, there's so much, I have found, you know, empathy, understanding; things that just don't need to be said, a sense of safety. I get really nervous when I'm around too many men, I always will. Men are inherently scary to me: and I think the patriarchy has allowed that to run rampant so that even if there's a nice guy, you're still like, "But what happens if someone says 'no' in the wrong way?"

[15:35] Chris Angel Murphy

Yeah, there's definitely pieces that I miss as well.

[15:39] Petey Gibson

You know, there were women-only spaces that I, I took myself out of, you know. I'm in a sobriety program and so I, you know—that was really hard to leave, like women's-only spaces. But it also was the thing to do, you know, I don't need my voice taking up space in that room, it's something I'm really happy to step aside for. It's just not for me anymore and that's okay. I have a lot of like, gratitude for listening to myself, and I've had a lot of support. Which goes to show like what my friend group is, I don't—with the exception of a sister—I don't really have a relationship with family. So I've really built a community. And so when I came out, it was really more of a like, "Finally!" [laughs] than a "What?!" you know. Because I've—anyone that, that sort of had an issue in my circle is no longer in my circle. So once I transitioned, that was—I set myself up right.

[16:32] Chris Angel Murphy

In that same interview I mentioned previously, you talked about how, and this is a direct, quote, "A third of The Sympathy Card, cast and crew were queer, and everyone was encouraged to speak up if they thought any details were wrong." And when I think of transmasculine representation, in particular, the person I immediately think of is Elliot Page. And it's hard to think of anyone else really. Why do you think we still have barriers for the LGBTQ+ community, being able to write and tell their own stories?

[17:03] Petey Gibson

I mean, Hollywood is a microcosm of America at large. So there are a lot of cis white, you know, het, old, male voices in the room. I think just like, you know, Black storytelling or disabled storytelling, it's always considered really niche. And because it's a business, they're constantly thinking, "Who is the audience for this?" And because our stories are considered "niche," they're considered a gamble. And because we're in a business, we're not doing a lot of gambling. We're starting to see trans stories a little bit, but they're almost exclusively geared towards Gen Z, because I think there's this idea in Hollywood that like, the only trans people are teenagers, and the only audience for trans stories are teenagers and people in their 20s. And I'm like, "Well, that's not true. We've been here a long time. There's a lot of people, you know, who are operating in front of and behind the camera."

[18:02] Petey Gibson

And it's really interesting to have, Elliott have come out because it's—all of a sudden, it feels like everybody is like, "Oh, Elliott Page is THE trans guy." And it's been really interesting for those of us that have been here. Elliott is still really new in his transition and has done an incredible job for our representation. I absolutely loved the way that "The Umbrella Academy" handled that storyline and they brought in Thomas Page McBee, who's a transmasc writer, to help with that storyline. But I think in general, people hold Elliott as like an anomaly, or they're able to get it because they've seen Elliott's whole career, so there's like a span. I'm in a community of a lot of transmasc creatives. So anybody out there needs a director, a producer, a writer, a second AD, an editor, great! Hire trans guys, we can only help your story.

[18:54] Chris Angel Murphy

You've played roles on shows like "Broad City" and "Grace and Frankie." What would a show need to look like, and do, for you to feel like your story is being told as a transmasc person?

[19:06] Petey Gibson

I would need Hollywood to buy my pilot that is fucking lit [both laugh]. You know, there's not a lot of storytelling for funny, almost 40-year-old trans men. There's just not. I think any trans stories that I'm seeing are geared really young, because Hollywood's always a little behind the curve and I think it's like, "Oh, young people are trans and trans people are young, and that's the math equation." So I would really love to be playing trans guys that are my age that are transitioned, which is not really a word, but for the sake of, you know, the visual, I guess of it.

[19:41] Petey Gibson

Like I said early on, I'm a writer and a producer and I, I write for myself. I've got a couple of pieces that—one is about to start going out and one is in—I just finished the deck for it. But I write really super fun comedy-focused, older, transmasc stories that aren't in any way focused on trauma, that aren't focused on coming out. Because me and my friends have a lot of fucking fun. And for me, I'm the happiest that I've ever been. I fucking love my life. And there's this idea that transness is always about grief, or maybe making yourself small and I feel like I've never been bigger. I've quieted so many screaming voices to just listen to the one voice inside me that knows who I am. And I've connected myself to that voice and said, "I'm going to listen to you, and I'm going to do everything I can to be who we know we are." So what a fucking gift, how, like, how delightful! I have the—I have the best time. Obviously, that's an enormous privilege, me saying that, you know, I've done a lot of work to cultivate this life. I am estranged from my parents, I—you know, it's like I, it is a blessing to say, as a trans person, that I feel safe and I love my life. But I feel really committed to leading with joy. I think that's part of the revolution.

[21:04] Chris Angel Murphy

When you were on the Unlearning Podcast, you talked about a perfect day and it including time spent sunbathing in your boxer briefs, [Petey laughs] with your I believe, post-op chest, is that correct?

[21:07] Petey Gibson

[laughs] Yeah.

[21:19] Chris Angel Murphy

Yeah. So there can be a lot of insecurity for folks because of being afraid of people asking about any scarring or finding out that they're trans. And you called it a pure, small pleasure to be able to sunbathe like that. Are there any other pure, small pleasures that you're looking forward to in your life related to your transmasc identity, or any other moments that have happened for you?

[21:46] Petey Gibson

I remember the first time that I—we never know if we're like, quote, unquote, "passing" or not. For me, that's not necessarily like the goal. A lot of my physical masculine traits came in during the pandemic. So once the world cracked open a little bit, I went to a Staples. And I walked in the door, and the male security guard was there and he gave me like, a slight nod and he was like, "How you doing today, sir?" And I just nodded back at him and I kept walking. And I felt this like, it was almost like a cold sheet went over me, it was so pleasurable. And I suddenly was like, "I don't think I knew how much space it took up to be misgendered in public." I hated it. It happened all the time. I was uncomfortable all the time.

[22:37] Petey Gibson

But the amount of space that I have now, when I just walk into a store, and someone says, "What's up, man?" And I keep going, someone hands me my change, they say, "Have a nice day, sir." It has radically changed my life. And it is deeply pleasurable every single time. To live your entire life and have every single person that you meet, not know who you are by looking at you, is a special kind of anxious hell. And to now suddenly have that barrier gone. It has like freed, I would say like 90% of my mind when I'm out in public.

[23:12] Petey Gibson

And I'm like, "Oh, my God, this is how fucking white men get so much done. They just get to exist as human beings." Women have to constantly be looking around, they have to constantly be policing their tone, they have to constantly be checking themselves and reading the room and doing all that stuff. People of Color constantly have to be like, looking around, you know, on guard waiting for someone to say that there's something that they're not—you know, then the list goes on and on and on and on and on. And I am in this fucking bizarro world where I'm being seen as a white man. And I have got so much energy, so much free time, it is disgusting and it's insulting. And it's pleasurable and it's awful to like, realize, like, "Oh, this is what it feels like to just be a man." I could get angry in public and people would just be like, "That guy's angry." It wouldn't be me being a woman or a queer person or whatever getting angry in public. It's—

[24:06] Petey Gibson

So it's like this blessing and curse [laughs] and I know what it's like, now, and I can't unknow it and it is fucking wild. I've committed my full standup set to talking about how easy men have it though, so that is my part of my work [laughs]. Because they don't even know. They don't know what they don't know. But I know, I'm a gender spy. I know what it's like on the other side. So I commit to letting men know as much as possible, how good they have it.

[24:34] Chris Angel Murphy

Yeah, and it's interesting too, because my height is working for me. Because I'm like, I don't know, 5' 11" or something.

[24:41] Petey Gibson

Shut the fuck up.

[24:43] Chris Angel Murphy

Yeah.

[24:43] Petey Gibson

Ahh.

[24:44] Chris Angel Murphy

But again—so not a trans guy—but trans guys get very jealous of that because I think you're what like 5' 4" or something?

[24:51] Petey Gibson

I am 5' 4".

[24:53] Chris Angel Murphy

But you, you said you feel like you're taking up all this new space now and everything, so—and I'm pretty sure in a podcast—you said that it's just not something that you're insecure about. So I guess, I'm wondering, how did you work through that? Because I just feel like I've heard from so many trans guys, it's, it's a pain point for them to be short, if they are.

[25:11] Petey Gibson

Well, luckily, I'm a comedian. Anything that irks me: I make a joke about it, say it on stage, and get an audience to laugh with me. So, my stand-up set kind of starts like, "I see you looking at me, you're wondering, 'Is he short? Or is he trans?' The answer is: I am both, baby." [both laugh] I also have a big personality, a big smile, I tend to read as big. And that's more important to me, personality-wise.

[25:39] Petey Gibson

I forget that I'm short, too. That's kind of a dysphoria thing that I immediately go, "This is toxic masculinity. It doesn't fucking matter. Your masculinity is not tied to your height." But I'll sometimes see myself in pictures. And I'm like, "Oh, my god, is that how people see me?" Like, cause I don't feel [laughs] short and then I see myself and I'm like, "Oh, I'm small. I totally forgot." So that's kind of like a dysphoria thing; only in the sense that, wow, the way that I see myself is not how people see me, I forgot and now I'm reminded. And that used to be in pictures, it would be my gender. So now it's simply my height, but that's, you know, I feel like maybe at a certain point, everybody has that. People think they look a certain way and then they see a picture of themselves, "No, like Jesus Christ. Is that—is that what we're all seeing?" But for the most part, I'm cute and happy. You know, what more could I want?

[26:30] Chris Angel Murphy

You've mentioned it a little bit—congrats on being eight years sober.

[26:34] Petey Gibson

Oh, my God, what a blessing. Thank you.

[26:36] Chris Angel Murphy

Yeah. A lot of the scenes you frequent tend to revolve around alcohol. I know, especially around comedy. I'm curious, what are some of the things you've seen communities and venues get right about making a safer space for you to not feel pressured to drink?

[26:57] Petey Gibson

Well, you know, part of that is on me; I didn't go to bars for years. I actually quit doing stand-up comedy for about two years, because I was being paid in drink tickets. I—they were always in bars, there was always alcohol and for me, I always had a couple shots before I got on stage. And I basically had to relearn that like, at the end of the day, I am the most responsible for myself. And I still, at eight years, if I know friends are all going to a bar, I'll ask myself, "Is this okay?" And I'll go, "Yep, it's okay." And I go, but there are times even now where I leave places early. So it's really being in control of myself and on top of my recovery and having like a good spiritual center.

[27:35] Petey Gibson

But yeah, I think the queer community can and does do a really good job about centering things not around alcohol. That being said, it's still really hard. You know, like brunch seems to mean mimosas. Dancing seems to be drink specials. Getting together for a Saturday afternoon seems like happy hour. So that's really difficult. I run along with two other amazing people Jaffe and Provvidenza Catalano—I think they've both been on your show.

[28:05] Chris Angel Murphy

They have. [laughs]

[28:06] Petey Gibson

Yeah, they have. So the three of us run a fundraiser drag king show called Them Fatal. And that's in an outdoor venue, there is a bar like attached to it, but it is not alcohol-heavy space. Half the time I get on the mic, I do mention that I'm sober. And so we've cultivated a space that's about community and connection. So it's not a pro-alcohol space. It's not an anti-alcohol space. But we threw a huge pride party this year was my first time throwing one and one of the things that we said is, this is not alcohol-heavy. We didn't bring any extra, you know, alcohol sponsors in; it wasn't about that. It was about like, having tacos and making out with a cutie, and having a [laughs] good dance party. And those are all more fun.

[28:47] Chris Angel Murphy

When I think about when I used to attend Pride celebrations, it felt like that's all it was: was alcohol, having a major alcohol sponsor, and then people sometimes out of control. But yeah, just like super alcohol-driven. I'm not someone who's sober—as a leader, though—I try to be attuned to the needs of different people and communities. Because for me, the queer community hasn't always been great about not centering things around alcohol. That's why I'm always like, curious about how other people are experiencing it, especially now, because I don't—I'm a little bit more of a homebody these days. And I'd rather like go to a park or something. I'm just always curious about how folks can make spaces more expansive in that way so we don't have to like, just feel like we need to default to that.

[29:41] Petey Gibson

Yeah, I mean, Dyke Day does a really good job of offering an alternate that—to pride and I think that's really beautiful. I went to Dyke Day this year and ate a ton of grapes and saw a ton of friends—[both] I wasn't missing alcohol at all! It wasn't.

[29:55] Chris Angel Murphy

Was someone like feeding them to you? I feel like anytime I hear about someone eating grapes, I imagine—

[30:00] Petey Gibson

Yeah, sounds really Dionysus. [Chris Angel laughs] I know I wish it was that erotic but I simply was just eating grapes. But also, you know with anything, find your people. The right wing does an amazing job at propaganda. One of the things that they've said is like, "Oh, you live in a bubble?" And I'm like, "Yeah, I do." Because outside that bubble wants to fucking kill me and as far as I know, I have one life to live.

[30:23] Petey Gibson

And so if I'm surrounded by trans people, by sober people, by joyful people, by people that work with children, by people that work in comedy; I am living my best, most amazing life. And everyone lives in a bubble. Everyone in a small town lives in a bubble, everyone in a city. Your bubble might be your workplace. Like the idea that it's shameful to not—you know, to be in a bubble—that's literally human nature. There's millions and millions and millions of people, we don't know all of them. So find your people. If you go to an event, and you're not drinking, and you see other people that aren't drinking, go make fucking friends with them. Go seek out these spaces, because it's only good for your psyche to surround yourself with people that there's circular mentorship.

[31:11] Chris Angel Murphy

So with everything that you just shared: what would it look like to get away from what pride has become with the corporations and to go back to something that's more honoring our roots as a community as far as where we are as people? What do you wish corporate pride would morph into?

[31:29] Petey Gibson

I mean, I definitely think it's already happening. Like Gen Z is just incredibly aware, I think, of all the cracks in the foundation. I think they're looking at everything and they just keep going, "Why? Why is this this way? Like, this seems very simple." I feel like Gen Z has shone the spotlight on everything that's not working and they're doing a great job at starting to hold people's feet to the fire for accountability.

[31:56] Petey Gibson

But anyway, I think those things are already happening. I think that people want, you know, to make the community they want. Again, you know, Them—our Them Fatal Drag King Show is really community based and mission based beyond anything else. Those are the two things that we hold nearest and dearest. Dyke Day LA is a huge, you know, huge event. And it is so joyful, because it's not based around alcohol sponsors. And it's not based around fucking Bank of America being like, "Hey, gay, [Chris Angel laughs] give us money." I think the jig is up. That seems like something that has really just, the past 10 years, corporate pride has become so massive, and the backlash now seems like that's unrecoverable.

[32:44] Chris Angel Murphy

So the "Hey, gay," is based on a video that exists and there's actually a follow up one that came out this year. So if I can find them again, I will put them in the show notes on the episode page.

[32:55] Petey Gibson

Yeah, Meg Stalter did a really—it kind of launched her virally. She's now on Hacks and she, I think she's getting her own show now, but she started this whole "Hey, gay" and it is a perfect pairing. [Chris Angel laughs]

[33:08] Chris Angel Murphy

It really is. Because I have listeners from all over. Can you describe what Dyke Day LA is, in your own words?

[33:15] Petey Gibson

Dyke Day LA—I'm not part of it in any way, I'm just a happy participant—though Them Fatale actually did raise money for Dyke Day this year, because it's all donation-based, community-based. It is a huge party in a large like public park, the location has changed over the years, where they say "Dykes of all genders are welcomed." So it's a really queer, women-focused, collection of just like—a huge party all day. People bring picnics, they bring food, there's booths for vendors, there's live music and performances happening all day. There's like a BDSM demonstration tent, [laughs] like a dog fashion show at some point, or like have like people just like show off their dogs. Babies are welcome.

[34:03] Petey Gibson

So you have just every type of person in community together. It's a place where you go and you—I went this year, and I ran into probably 25 people before I even got to where my friends were. It was the best. If you live in LA come and if you like to support those things, give them some money. It's exceptional what they've done.

[34:25] Chris Angel Murphy

I used to go in its earlier days, and it's become so much more. I mean, back then it was just like a bunch of us showing up at a park basically, and just kind of hanging out.

[34:36] Petey Gibson

Yeah, well, it's scheduled on Pride weekend in LA, so it was always meant as an alternative to corporate pride, which usually is also like gay, cis, male-centered.

[34:36] Chris Angel Murphy

Yeah.

[34:38] Petey Gibson

And it feels crappy to be in WeHo around—I experienced a lot of misogyny pre-transition at Pride. And so this was a great place to just like, feel good about yourself and be around people that you like that have that smile when they see you even if you've never met.

[35:04] Chris Angel Murphy

Yeah, when I was 20-something growing up in Los Angeles, you know, as a gay baby [both laugh] the only spaces we had were mostly dominated by gay men. And so I had to go because, I mean, they barely had like, ladies night or something existing. Yeah, I remember doing that. And I just never felt comfortable. But a lot of it was in West Hollywood and Jaffe and I talked about it on our episode a little bit too, but they all have different vibes because like Long Beach felt a lot better than West Hollywood Pride. And San Diego Pride was pretty cool. San Francisco Pride was cool. But yeah, they all have a different vibe and different people who show up that really make or break it, I think. And then, of course, like the organizers, you know, whoever's involved that year, but.

[35:54] Chris Angel Murphy

So speaking of the drag show that you produce, you've been in the drag scene for quite some time now, including as a performer, and I asked, drag queen Coco Peru, this on the first season of the podcast, and she wasn't really sure. She didn't have an answer for this. So I would like to ask you: why do you think we see far and away more drag queens, then we see drag kings and performers broadly?

[36:24] Petey Gibson

I think drag queens, I mean, obviously nowadays, it's because there is an enormously popular reality show led by one of the most well-known in the mainstream culture drag queens of our time, that has allowed so many people to access it in a way that has just like blown up extraordinarily. But I think—are all of my answers going to be the patriarchy? I do not know. [both laugh]

[36:47] Chris Angel Murphy

That's okay. [Petey laughs]

[36:49] Petey Gibson

But I, you know, it's like drag queens are led, primarily by cis men, performing femininity. And there's something that's really accessible to I think straight culture, within that, it's something that they can understand. I think the idea of a man dressed as a woman has been comedic fodder and entertainment since literally Shakespeare, it was—that was where the word "drag" came from, it's "dressed as a girl." Drag kinging is a historically, like, queer women performing masculinity. And that's not something that is as accessible to like, "Look at these gorgeous, sassy men, dressing as women and lip synching Donna Summer." Like, it's fun, it's great, it's a different art form. At least here, there's a lot of uptick in drag kinging. And it's something I'm really interested in exploring. I'm, I'm starting a project with this amazing filmmaker, and another producer, to really be exploring drag kinging more. So something that has been on my mind for years, and it seems like now's the time, so.

[37:57] Chris Angel Murphy

Well, looking forward to that [laughs]. On the internet, people have opinions, of course.

[38:04] Petey Gibson

What?! [laughs]

[38:04] Chris Angel Murphy

I, I know [laughs] it gets scary. An older trans man got into an argument with you, starting with the classic phrase, "I'm not transphobic, but ...." Can you share about what happened and what you said?

[38:22] Petey Gibson

Yeah. I get into, we'll say conversations, with a lot of older queer people, trans or cis, just queer-identified, that are—that start, "I'm not transphobic, but—" and it usually concerns trans people playing sports, or medical access for teenagers, or young people. And it's always that and it drives me fucking insane. Like, first of all, if we're saying "I'm not racist, but—" or "anything, but—" like, whatever is going to come out of your mouth next, we should know at this point, is going to demonstrate that exact thing.

[38:56] Petey Gibson

I get really upset at the misinformation that's out there. I'm shocked at how much people don't want to lead with curiosity that they don't question what that means. And they say, "Okay, well, when I say that, what do I think is happening?" Like, I always ask older people that I'm like, "What exactly do you think is happening when you say this?" Because it seems like, "Oh, nine-year-olds are chopping off their boobs." And it's like, well, that's not a thing. And then [laughs] like, there's this idea that like kids are willy nilly just transitioning all over the place.

[38:56] Chris Angel Murphy

Yes.

[39:10] Petey Gibson

And it's like, if they had any idea, a.) what it took to get to that point of getting your parents or your guardians involved in that, what it took emotionally and psychologically, to get to a point where you say, "Hey, I'm so—I'm so uncomfortable a change needs to happen and I'm sure about this." What it took for the medical access. Socially, what it meant to transition. Financially, what it took to transition. All of the gatekeeping and the hurdles that come with access to any of these things.

[40:00] Petey Gibson

And then we're also in a time where hormone blockers exist, which literally serve to stave things off. Hormone blockers are a temporary way to stop basically the wrong puberty for happening. So that like a trans man who is not ready for whatever reason, self-chosen or medically chosen or parentally chosen, is not ready for a larger transition—to just simply not have like, their breasts come in and their period come in.

[40:30] Petey Gibson

Because can you imagine—you are a 13 or 14-year-old, and suddenly what you feel like the wrong things are growing in and your body is surging with a chemical and you think, "I absolutely cannot live this way and there's nothing I can do about it. I don't have access to care, it's not safe to tell my parents." Whatever it is. If hormone blockers were able to just stave that off for a little bit, so that you could buy yourself time to talk to your parents about it. Buy yourself time for the doctors to take you seriously because they say, "You're 14 and you don't know any better. You're 17, you don't know any better."

[41:07] Petey Gibson

A lot of these kids have to wait till they're 18 so that they can make choices for their own bodies, something that they may have known their entire life, and it crushes me—the suicide attempt rate. It makes such a literal, tangible difference, to have even one adult in a child's life who fully understands them, who doesn't have a caveat to saying, "Well, you don't know." There's just so many false equivalencies, that just all they're doing is injuring children.

[41:07] Petey Gibson

Every argument that we have about a child wanting to play sports like that is the—that is the point. What is the point of team sports and school sports, if not to include children and get them active and get them learning the lessons that you learn when you're on a team and when you're working together? For us to say, "No, you don't belong" to a child that has a suicide attempt rate that is more than 50%. For us to additionally say, "You don't belong here. We don't want you, you can't participate in any of these things. You can't go to the bathroom here." Because the only thing that you are saying to that child is, "You don't even get to exist on the track team. Disappear yourself."

[42:16] Chris Angel Murphy

In a study of 104 trans and nonbinary youth aged 13 to 20 years, receipt of gender-affirming care, including puberty blockers and gender-affirming hormones, was associated with 60% lower odds of moderate or severe depression and 73% lower odds of suicidality over a 12-month follow up. Another study found that 50.8% of transmasculine adolescents between the ages of 11 and 19 have attempted suicide at least once. And 41.8% of nonbinary adolescents have attempted suicide.

[43:00] Chris Angel Murphy

And there's a lot going on there because like what you're mentioning with youth, usually transition may look like hormone blockers, but also can be more of a focus on social and legal, right? So socially, meaning maybe their name, maybe their pronouns, maybe who knows if they're trans or not, or legally if they're actually changing a name or a gender marker on documentation, things like that. Like, that may be more of the focus, more than any medical stuff. Because again, typically what happens for youth, like you said, is just the blockers. But just even thinking about like, what we consider to be gender-affirming surgery, one of the arguments too is: cisgender people get them all the time and they don't have all of the gatekeeping that we do as trans people.

[43:50] Petey Gibson

What it takes for a young person still living at home, to get to the realization and get those words out of their mouth: do you know how sure you have to be to trust your family with that information to say, "Hey, this thing that you've thought my whole life is not quite true. I'm so uncomfortable." How sure you have to be to get to that. Because there's this idea that like, kids are seeking that out and kids are, you know, they think it's really cool and it's really hip. And it's like, no, we just finally have enough representation so children have the words for it.

[44:25] Petey Gibson

Trans people have always existed, but they've moved and gone stealth, or they have forced themselves to live a life that hurts so badly. What a more beautiful place that we live in, that kids are comfortable saying like, "Oh, I now see that thing. I have the words for it. I have a vision of what it could look like to grow up and be you." That's incredible. And it hurts no one.

[44:52] Chris Angel Murphy

According to the Trevor Project, only one in three LGBTQ youth found their home to be LGBTQ affirming.

[45:01] Chris Angel Murphy

And it's a tough decision to because, and I had to pull this up on my Instagram because I posted it some time ago and I didn't want to get the ages wrong—but broadly, LGBTQ+ youth may be dependent financially and health-wise on their families until the age of 26. So that's putting a lot on the line. And so the reason why is because at 18 is when you're finally usually able to open a bank account, sometimes it's 17, but usually it's 18. So yeah, to even have things like a bank account, you have to wait till then. Or housing, even to like apply for housing, right? To get an apartment, things like that. Then you're looking at 24, if that youth requires Federal Student Aid, or FAFSA, if they're going to college, because they have to report the parent's income or the family's income. And then up to 26, if they have to be on the parent or caregiver's health insurance plan.

[45:59] Petey Gibson

I was kicked out of my house, when I was right around 17-18, my senior year, and the butterfly effect that that had on my life and of my growth was so substantial. I feel in some ways, like that's why my journey is—kind of took a little while. Because I was so imprinted with the scarring of like, "hey, when I tell you who I am, I lose everything." I was top of my class, I was a straight-A student in all AP and honors classes. And I started drinking and smoking and self-harming and got my first B and C and D, and went to college and ended up having to leave three months later because I had a mental breakdown.

[45:59] Chris Angel Murphy

Adding that as well, it is a huge gamble. And sometimes, youth may not be able to come out when they want to to their families and may have to wait if they have any reason to believe that they'll be kicked out, that they'll you know, just anything—anything that it doesn't go the way that they were hoping, as far as just being loved unconditionally for who they are.

[47:06] Petey Gibson

When you lose all of that it, it really is a shock to the system. And I've been very lucky to access therapy and I'm eight years sober and you know, but it's—it's brutal. You get to a point where you can't not say it, at least for me. That was how it felt. And I risked everything, and I'm happy about where my life is today, I've learned how to really take care of myself, you know, I've gone through the fire, but fuck. [sighs] And if a kid can weigh all of that and still say "I have to tell somebody," I think we can believe that kid. It's the least we can do is believe that they know what they're saying. Oh, it gets me fucking mad Chris Angel, I tell you what. [both laugh]

[47:49] Chris Angel Murphy

I feel your passion and I match it [Petey laughs]. I'm—

[47:53] Petey Gibson

Great! Yes.

[47:54] Chris Angel Murphy

I'm also trying not to sweat with you, because it's hot enough.

[47:57] Petey Gibson

I'm totally sweating, [Chris Angel laughs] I'm enraged [laughs].

[48:02] Chris Angel Murphy

We don't always get to see trans elders and that has at least a few definitions. Because when I think of trans elders, I'm thinking of people who are further along in life, age-wise, and I think of people who have been out for a period of time—and the time is relative, I can't say like five years or what—but like someone as young as Jazz Jennings, who we've seen grow up. I would also consider to be a trans elder.

[48:36] Chris Angel Murphy

So I think there's a lot of definitions there. However, specifically focused on age, we have some still with us today. I'm thinking Kate Bornstein, Dr. Jamison Green, Eddie Izzard, and I'm wondering: what do you think it means—you know, because there's just something about seeing older trans people too, I think, give us hope and that it's possible to live that long. But what does it mean to you, to see older trans folks out in the world and being vocal or just living their lives?

[49:09] Petey Gibson

It's gorgeous. It's absolutely gorgeous. My friend Jess Dugan is this incredible photographer and has a project that turned into a book called "To Survive on the Shore." Oh my god, you gotta check it out. Jess went across the entire country, photographing trans elders, people 65 and older, it's an entire book. I was visiting Jess when they were sort of starting to put the pages—like I walked into their studio—and it was like, all these things, that I was just shook. It was beyond my imagination that there were trans people older than 65 existing all over the country.

[49:09] Petey Gibson

You know, "representation matters" has become such a catchphrase, but genuinely, that's what it means to me is like, "Oh, I can actually see what it means to grow up. I can actually see that these people have done it." And you know, the younger generation gets a lot more of that now, they're able to see people in their 20s and 30s and 40s and all the way up, but I you know I didn't—we didn't have that. It's gorgeous. It makes me feel less alone. And it makes me feel really excited about being part of a legacy of ravin' hot people [both laugh].

[50:14] Chris Angel Murphy

A lot of us—and I'm just talking about trans people I've spoken to who are either part of the binary or outside of it—in private conversations, we'll talk about our suicide ideation that we've experienced, or maybe continue to experience. I don't know, like, I'm going to be 35 this year and something that I share with a lot of my friends is we just didn't think we'd live this long.

[50:38] Petey Gibson

I'm literally planning my 40th birthday party, and people are like, "What are you going to do?" And like, I've literally never thought about it.

[50:44] Chris Angel Murphy

Yeah.

[50:45] Petey Gibson

I have no idea.

[50:46] Chris Angel Murphy

Because I'm nonbinary, you know, so what is it "they-hood?" I don't know, I don't want to [both laugh], like feel like, I need to come up with a word for it. But I, it, you know, when I look at people who are older than me and share the same identity of nonbinary, or even if they're gender fluid, or anything else under that nonbinary umbrella; I just don't see myself in it. And then it gets really hard for me to think about, like, what do I see for my life? What milestones do I want?

[51:09] Chris Angel Murphy

I think I come back to something we talked about previously, where if, you know, queerness, is—part of that is just like embracing and saying, "Fuck these heterosexual norms, and beyond, like, we are free to decide how we want our relationships to look." I think of queer platonic relationships: we don't have to be necessarily in a romantic or sexual relationship with everyone and we can have these different gray areas, etc. But like, I feel the overwhelm of that and I come back to: I just never expected to live this long. So is there anything in particular you see for yourself? Or how do you? How do you deal with that thought that maybe in your head,

[51:48] Petey Gibson

I'm at a place in my healing, where the world is my oyster. I really can envision a very big life for myself, and I'm going after it, and I'm really excited by it. I, I used to despair so much. I just constantly kept trying to make myself small. I was trying to people-please, and I was trying to survive. And now I feel like enough tough things have happened that have, you know, put me through the fire that I truly feel free in a way that I, I've never felt and I am ready to kick some ass, baby [Chris Angel laughs]. I really am.

[52:26] Chris Angel Murphy

I love it. We kind of already talked about this, but I wanted to give you another opportunity if you wanted to answer with anything else. What's an argument against trans people you would like to address right now?

[52:40] Petey Gibson

I mean, there's the fundamental argument that is happening in our country that trans people shouldn't exist. There's hundreds, literally hundreds—record-shattering bills and proposals locally, statewide, against trans people's very existence. And it's disgusting, and it's fascism. If you are somebody who is a "I'm not transphobic, but—" I would like you to examine why your body is taking in right-wing talking points and absorbing them and thinking that they're okay.

[53:16] Chris Angel Murphy

What's really been scary for me too, is it's just not getting a lot of coverage.

[53:16] Petey Gibson

Yeah, because it's exhausting.

[53:24] Chris Angel Murphy

Oh, yeah. I mean, it's, it's like Whack-a-Mole. And then people will be a lot more familiar with like Texas and Florida, but they don't realize what's happening in many other states as well.

[53:36] Petey Gibson

Well, this has always happened. I think that this is not just a trans issue. This is what happens to minorities in this country where it's like, "Okay, women want to get the vote, but Black women need to be quiet, or you're going to ruin it for the majority of the women." And like, "Feminists want this certain thing, but the lesbians really need to be quiet. Gay people want this thing, but we really just want marriage, so anybody that's like against that just be quiet." Like, this always happens. And it's usually super queer people or, you know, minorities within minorities who are helping the larger thing happen, and then they never get their "thanks" back. And I think there's this feeling of exhaustion amongst gay people, or non-trans, queer people that are like, "This is, this is really exhausting and it might, you know, wreck it for everybody."

[54:26] Petey Gibson

And it's like, all of our liberation rests on all of our liberation. Like there is no pulling that apart. There's no saying if trans people would just be quiet, then gay people wouldn't be as hated. We've all fought for the same liberation and it's all tied in: abortion rights are tied into that's a bodily autonomy issue. It's the same thing as what they're trying to do to trans people, they're trying to do people with uteruses: and it's all about the patriarchy. Please just call this the patriarchy episode [Chris Angel laughs], like I am livid at the patriarchy. The minute I turn added to a white man, I was like, "What, fresh hell is this?"

[55:03] Chris Angel Murphy

Oh, yeah, there's a lot of systems we can wag our fingers at.

[55:07] Petey Gibson

Je-sus.

[55:08] Chris Angel Murphy

So you're gonna be 40. What do you hope to see in your lifetime, which right now, we'll manifest will be long and fulfilling--

[55:16] Petey Gibson

Holy shit, what a question!? What do I like—personally, this is related to queer people, but I really, really hope that we see a toppling of our current political system. I hope that we get rid of the Electoral College, because I think it gives it really scary majority to a minority. I hope that we see a restructuring of our two-party system, because basically, Republicans are right-wing fascists and Democrats are Republicans. Like, I am excited about the progressive wing that's coming through I am—I got a picture of Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez on my phone as my screensaver—I look at her every day. That is somebody who is brave and who is doing the work.

[56:01] Petey Gibson

And so I deeply hope that something that is broken, finally crumbles and something better can come in its place to actually serve the majority of people who do want change, who do want safety, and who do want us to be ruled with love. I mean, like, "get the government out of our house" is a Republican ideal, like, the fact that Republicans are [laughs] constantly coming for people. I'm like, "Isn't it you who wants the government out of everything? Like why are you trying to legislate against every person that exists? Still sweating.

[56:33] Chris Angel Murphy

No [both laugh]- Yeah, patriarchy and sweating. That's I'Il—

[56:41] Petey Gibson

The Petey Gibson Story.

[56:42] Chris Angel Murphy

I'll play with that [both laugh]. There you go.

[56:46] Petey Gibson

Something that's really served me in my life is stopping before I speak and being curious. And I think that can serve a lot of people and that includes people who count themselves as allies, people who, you know, count themselves as queer, "Why are we doing it this way?" And I think I do that, "Why do I think that?" or "Why—" and then I can examine my, you know, internalized racism or internalized homophobia or transphobia. Or I think, "Oh, this is actually like, sort of a shadow thing in myself that has nothing to do you know, with this other person." So I think I just like to say that, like, get curious, babies. [both laugh]

[57:26] Chris Angel Murphy

What's one allyship tip you'd like for everyone listening to consider?

[57:31] Petey Gibson

It's a very specific allyship tip: If somebody tells you their new name, or their new pronouns, put them in your phone immediately. And, so that every time they call or text, you see it and it's a reminder to you before you interact with that person, that something has changed.

[57:49] Chris Angel Murphy

Our arms are in the air, we did it.

[57:53] Petey Gibson

Our arms are in the air. [both laugh]

[57:55] Chris Angel Murphy

To air out the pits because we're sweating. [laughs]

[57:57] Petey Gibson

Like we did sports.

[57:59] Chris Angel Murphy

Oh, my God.

[58:01] Chris Angel Murphy

Petey and I had to stretch out the interview across two days, because of internet connectivity issues—and anytime there's tech issues with an episode, I have extra gratitude. Not only for the guest's time, but also patience for us to work through it so we can have a good conversation. So Petey, thank you, and congrats on all of your success. If you haven't seen it yet, go check out "The Sympathy Card." You can rent it on a few places like YouTube, Google Play, and Amazon Prime Video.

[58:34] Chris Angel Murphy

The only other thing I'd love to sneak in before we get to the self-reflection questions, is that I am now 35. I celebrated my birthday on September 17. And if you would like to help me celebrate, I'd really, really appreciate it if you could either share this podcast with someone that you think would like it. Or if you can leave me a rating, or a review, on Spotify or Apple to help other people find the podcast, it would mean a great deal to me. So thank you so much.

[59:02] Chris Angel Murphy

And here's those final three self-reflection questions:

4. Is there a societal expectation of my gender that I don't live up to? How do I feel about that?
5. Do I believe that I can learn from people of all ages.
6. Do I try to lead with curiosity?

[59:26] Chris Angel Murphy

Visit AllyshipIsAVerb.com for any resources and a full transcript of the episode. And remember, sometimes allyship means updating people's name and pronouns in your phone.