[00:00:00] Charlie Ocean: Well, hello there. I'm Charlie Ocean, and my pronouns are they/them. Welcome to Allyship is a Verb, a podcast for people practicing allyship, for the LGBTQ+ community, and beyond!

To celebrate my 36th birthday and recent name change, I've asked some folks near and dear to my heart to call in with questions. Some folks have known me through all of my names, and some are newer connections, though all of them mean a great deal to me. I have no idea (laughs) what they're going to ask me, and I fully expect this to be a wild ride, so it should be fun.

Let's dive in.

[00:00:56] Havilah: Hi Charlie, it's Havilah, and I would like to know: you have your new first name of Charlie; awesome. You have your new last name of Ocean; also awesome. But I noticed no middle name. Is that going to be added or are we going completely away from that?

And, if you have a middle name, think about the fact that if you choose one with "E", your initials are C. E. O. and if you choose one that starts with "O", your initials are C. O. O.

Don't you think that'd be pretty cool?

[00:01:27] Charlie Ocean: It was really easy to pick Charlie. It was a little bit harder to pick Ocean. And then, once I was very decided on those... And I was exploring middle names, and one of them that I had in my phone was Arden, which I believe means gray forest. I just felt that any time I tried to add a middle name even meaningfully...

It just didn't flow. The name became kinda clunky, so I decided that Charlie Ocean was just fine. And that, that was more than enough. I was wondering how you went about the process of choosing your new name. Now why Charlie? Why Ocean? And what path did you take to get there? Did you consider anything else along the 2023.

I had so many events, and so many people were messing up my name. People would call me Chris instead of Chris Angel, people were using he him instead of they them. It wasn't all the time, but it was enough that by the end of the month I'd Honestly, I had a breakdown, and late one night, and as I was trying to go to bed, I just audibly said to no one in particular that I have to change my name.

It has to happen now. And I've always known that this was going to be the case when I chopped my name in half to Chris Angel Murphy. I always knew it was the fix, but not the fit, and that someday I would revisit it and have more time to be thoughtful in selecting a new name. It was to stop dealing with the awkwardness of having the name Christina on everything, which has never felt aligned.

And then I would have to go up to professors and teachers at the beginning of every semester and say, I know it says this, but can you say this instead? So to save myself all of that extra work, I just chopped my name in half, and Charlie mostly comes from the main character in The Perks of Being a Wallflower because it's one of the books that's incredibly important to me and my story and part of how I've come to learn about myself.

When I moved to Denver from Los Angeles, and thinking about all the times I had the ocean easily accessible to me, I realized very quickly once I got to Denver, I hate being landlocked. So every time I get a chance to go back to L. A. I try to go to some of my favorite beaches, and just spend time watching the sunset, walking along the waves, and also doing one of my spiritual practices that helps me to release things no longer serving me.

I very quickly decided on Charlie first, and then I came up with Ocean as the last name. When I attempted to insert another nature based name as a middle name, I considered Arden. Which, I believe, stands for Great Forest, but anything I tried to fit in the middle just didn't have the same flow to it like Chris Angel Murphy did.

So I opted not to have a middle name because Charlie Ocean felt enough on its own.

[00:04:31] Havilah: So I looked up the name Charlie, and according to the internet, it means free man. And so I want to know, what makes you feel free?

[00:04:42] Charlie Ocean: I totally expected her to say man in there at the end, but maybe she skipped it so that she didn't like, misgender me or something. Or maybe I shouldn't even think about it. I don't know, but that's where my brain went. So I'd say there's two things that make me feel the freest or the most liberated. The first is a very common theme, especially in the most recent episodes of allyship is a verb. So I've talked about this with MJ and Zoa as well, of not being put in a box, not having someone try to figure out who I am so that they can easily categorize me in their brain or anything like that.

Like, I just want them to experience the wholeness of me as a person. And just get to know me as Charlie, outside of, are you a man, or a woman, and how much of that you are, and how much you play into those roles, and those expectations, and, okay, because I think you're a man, I'm gonna interact with you this way, because I'm a woman, or anything like that, I hate this.

When people do that, it feels so gross. I just, I don't feel seen. So, liberating me and not trying to place any labels on me, or only come to understand me because of labels, I think that's a horrible way to get to know me as a person. Because they're always gonna come with preconceived notions of what that means.

And also, everyone's individual interpretations or definitions of different terms change and shift over time, even. The other thing that makes me feel free and liberated, and this is also coming from a place of privilege, is being able to have a car. It provides me security and safety in a way that I don't think I can quite articulate very well.

But I appreciate the fact that I can just get in my car and go into the mountains, or to an appointment, or even just wander around aimlessly at night to clear my head and play some good music.

[00:06:35] Havilah: I wanted to know if there were any nicknames for Charlie that you were particularly cool with, or any nicknames for Charlie that you were like, do not call me that, that is not my name.

[00:06:46] Charlie Ocean: That's not my name. That's not my name. I don't think I've discovered any yet. I know what does not feel okay is when people ask me if Charlie is a nickname for Charles. Like, Charles does not align with me at all. But Charlie does. Can I articulate why? Absolutely not. I just know that Charles does not feel good.

I don't hate that name. I just, it Outside of that, my friends have been starting to explore with different nicknames, and I think it's really cool, and I give folks permission to explore that, and what I can do is just say, If something doesn't feel good or feel aligned, but so far I have a friend who calls me my Charlie in a very affectionate way that feels really good and I feel like also helps to demonstrate our intimacy and our friendship and how deep it is and yeah, how much I feel connected to this person.

I have another friend, same situation, but I get called Charlie Bean or Sweet Charlie Bean and that feels really great. If it's authentic, and loving, and supportive, and kind, and all of those things, then I'll probably like it. So, I imagine I'll also be called Char at some point, and that would probably be cool too.

I think for most people, I'd want them to call me Charlie, but if we are intimate in some way, like best friends, or chosen family, things like that, then... Even more so, I absolutely and wholeheartedly welcome testing out different nicknames.

[00:08:21] Kaitlyn: Hey, Charlie! Hey, Charlie! Got a question for ya. Being millennials of a certain age, we've seen a lot. And by a lot, I mean a lot of memes. We were around for the dancing babies. The geocities, geocities, anime music videos, listicles, saying the word hashtag before word, being hashtag relatable, you cringe for it, we consumed it, we made it.

I know nowadays, with us being so busy, sometimes our only communications are sending memes back and forth. So my question for you, what meme has made the biggest impact on your life? This could be from sharing a meme with someone that became a good friend, or maybe it's just an affirmation that you now live by.

Memes, man.

[00:09:20] Charlie Ocean: By high school, flash animations were really popular, and they could include music and sound effects, and basically a lot of them ended up being, like, animated cartoons or something. Some of the ones that I quote the most, and I used to know a lot better than I do currently, are, like, the Homestar Runner series, which makes me think of Havilah, because she had included at least one or two of the songs that one of the characters, Strong Bad, sings.

One time I was at this party in my early 20s, and I made the mistake, apparently, of talking about the End of the World flash one, and one of the quotable lines is, (in accent) “fire ze missiles,” “but I'm le tired.” “So then take a nap, and then fire ze missiles.” And in reality, it's not that funny, but in the context of this Flash movie, it really was.

But I made the mistake of talking about it at a party, and everyone groaned and rolled their eyes because there was someone who perked up and he was so fucking happy to deliver it verbatim, like, the whole thing, and it went on for probably, like, at least a few minutes. So, I had opened up a Pandora's box without knowing it, and I don't know that folks were very happy.

But how the hell was I supposed to know? I didn't know these people.

There was Foamy, the squirrel. Which was pretty popular, and actually still exists apparently. What you heard, if you don't recognize it, at the top was Kaitlyn played Charlie the Unicorn goes to Candy Mountain. It's actually got a few more episodes to it, but I feel like most people know that one, if they know about it at all.

But that series is delightfully bizarre, and so I've been having people call me Charlie in that voice a lot, which has been really fun. I mean, speaking of Charlie memes, there's so many. I've already had someone say sorry Charlie to me. Uh, I mean there's the classic Charlie bit my finger, which now we're going into early YouTube days.

But yeah, all of these Flash movies exist on YouTube now, so I will be sure to link them if you want to watch. I would say present day, one of my favorite memes are the medieval ones. Like, there's this one that there's this person sitting, it's a portrait of them, and they have this like large head, but the smallest face.

It's like someone sized it down, but not like the rest of the head, and it just says “Y tho.” And I don't know why it brings me joy, but it does. So I love those kinds of memes, but yeah.

[00:11:43] Kaitlyn: You and I met in the bowels of the corporate world, working together for a tech company. Yikes. One of the most clear memories of you that I have is of you standing up in front of the entire company and introducing yourself with your name and pronouns.

As a nonbinary person, I had never imagined that I could be out at work, and you showed me that I could. It has profoundly changed the way that I live my life now. What other stories of your impact have people shared with you?

[00:12:26] Charlie Ocean: Shit, I'm crying. Yeah, gosh, in some ways that feels like such a long time ago.

Even though it wasn't that long ago, but we were at a summit for the company, and I had decided, and I didn't even know Kaitlyn yet, but I had decided that it was really important for me to come out, because I wanted the entire company to know, and I didn't want there to be any confusion or anything, and pronouns were not something that was normalized before I was there.

So, I raised my hand to make a comment in front of everyone, and I said, Hey, my name is Charlie, and And my pronouns are they, them. And then I made my epic monologue that day, um, touching on some things that were coming up for me at the summit. And I wanted to see if anyone else. resonated with what I was sharing.

Kaitlyn was sitting a few seats to the left of me, and there was someone after me who gave a comment, and then Kaitlyn raised their hand, and then they said, Charlie, you just said something I've been trying to figure out how to say for years. My pronouns are also they them. And I get chills every time I think about it because, I mean, that sparked...

A few other people in the company also sharing that they use they them pronouns. And suddenly, we just like, were able to find each other, we created a group, and it became this whole thing. I ended up doing training for the company, we started normalizing pronouns, we started doing all of these things, and it was just because I shared my pronouns.

That one time. And to this day, we still meet! Our group still tries to hang out at least like once a month or so on Zoom, and I love it, and I'm so grateful for them, because... It fostered a real strong sense of community at the company and that felt so important to me. So, thank you for going down memory lane with me, Kaitlyn.

I have been incredibly fortunate over the years to be able to share my story, and because of that, and also just existing I was a possibility model for others. But that's not how I saw myself. I wasn't setting out to be a role model, I just thought that I didn't want to hide, and even though I had to do a lot of fighting to be able to be visible, it felt really important, and I knew that I wanted it to be easier for people after me, wherever I was, including in high school, To have much better experiences than I did.

It felt very important and I felt very protective of those people that I knew were like right after me. And it was really fucking isolating. I didn't really see anyone else like me. I mean, I saw gay and lesbian people. Some people were out as bisexual, but some weren't because it was still really stigmatized, and still is to this day.

I didn't really see trans people. I didn't start making those kinds of connections until I was in my early 20s and going to community college. And those were mostly binary identities, so it takes some even more time to find people who are also either genderqueer or nonbinary or something like that. So, when someone, like a parent or caregiver, comes up to me and says, thank you so much for being a role model for my trans daughter, or things like that, I mean, that's, that's a quick way to get me to, to cry, and cry hard.

Honestly, because, and I'm tearing up thinking about it, I just, it means a lot. And again, I'm so fortunate that I've been able to have those kinds of connections with people. I mean, hell, one time I was doing a speaking engagement, and those days I was just sharing my story. There were some elements of education too, but it was mostly storytelling.

And one time during Q& A, someone raised their hand and was just like, you know, you looked familiar and then you said your name. And then I realized you helped my friend realize that they're trans. They said the first name and I knew exactly who they were talking about. And I was like, Oh, wow. It was someone I went to high school with.

We also ran into each other in community college, which was hilarious because. Both of us had started taking testosterone, and we gave each other, like, a knowing laugh, like, I see you. But we never really talked in a meaningful way, we didn't really, like, hang out a lot or anything like that, so to know that I was a part in them coming out, I mean, I was completely floored.

I had no idea. Every time someone reaches out to let me know something like this, it helps to heal baby Charlie. Because, it felt like hell, at the time. And it still does in some ways. But now, I don't feel the isolation I did before, when it felt like I wasn't seeing anyone else. who was like me, or that had some of my same experiences.

The person who was that for me was Leslie Feinberg. I came across Stone Butch Blues, and reading that book helped me define the term genderqueer, which was one of the labels I first adopted, and it really helped me to, just like the Perks of Being a Wallflower did, but in a different way, helped me to really do a deep dive and learn so much more about myself.

A book gave that to me, and to know that I can be that person for others? Shit, that's... that's an incredible gift and one of the highest honors I could ever receive. And it feels important to note that one time someone specifically said... You know, Charlie, you inspired me to come out, because even though you've been dealing with bullying, discrimination, all sorts of things, you've always pulled through. And it made me see that I could be okay too, even if things like that happened. And fuck, I wouldn't want that for anyone, but what a beautiful thing to say, because it helps to heal baby Charlie, who went through all of that pain. To make it feel like it was for a greater good. And that makes it a lot easier to live with.

[00:18:44] Dulseigh: Hello, Sweet Bean Charlie. In our friendship separated by many time zones, I love to wake up to your wonder filled voice notes that may contain the highlights of your day or the marvelous musings that filled your head and heart. Some gentle and kind words of support or thought provoking questions that can be deep and meaningful or just pure joy and ridiculousness.

Thank you. I'd like to ask you two questions. From all the stories you have read in books or watched on telly or in films, which characters or storylines have helped you to find you? And to share the joy of Taskmaster, I'd love to know how you would win this silly prize task. Which does mean competing with the great Mae Martin. Most fun thing to wear on your head that you aren't supposed

[00:19:33] Charlie Ocean: Thank you, Dulseigh. I've talked a bit about The Perks of Being a Wallflower, which I ended up doing a whole podcast episode with, of the host of Best Book Ever, and I can link to that if folks want to dive more into that. I've also talked a bit about Leslie Feinberg, so I would actually like to sort of sidestep and cheat a little bit.

And say that, of everyone I've grown up with over the years on television, I'm thinking of, like, Power Rangers, Barney, Lamb Chops Play Along, Robin Williams, far and away, had the most impact on me as a person. In my mind, he was my TV dad. I loved watching things like Mork and Mindy. Aladdin and Mrs. Doubtfire, although they have not aged as well as I would have loved. But I like to think that I get a lot of my silliness, improvising, singing, different characters, different voices, like, I feel like I get all of that from him. Sometimes my friends talk about me having a light, and I don't see myself as that.

I've even had someone call me a lighthouse before, which is really beautiful and fits in nicely with the Charlie Ocean theme. But if there's any light in me, honestly, I think it's because of Robin Williams and how bright he was. I'm really serious. I fucking loved him so much that I remember the day and the moment that I learned that he was no longer here.

And I was fucking devastated, absolutely devastated. I was in even such a state of shock. I just, I couldn't even believe it or process the news. Robin Williams as a person and the characters that he played have had a significant impact on how I show up in the world, for sure. And I gotta say, Mae Martin is awesome.

If you don't know who they are, they are a... Comedian, actor, writer, producer. They wrote and starred in Feel Good, which is incredible. They were just on Series 15 of Taskmaster, which is what Dulce is referring to, and it's a really funny show. I think y'all should give it a chance if you haven't seen it before.

And I hate to I can't think of anything. I mean, number one, I don't like a lot of things being on my head. Although I can wear hats, it's mostly just to cover how messy my head is because I also don't have quite the shape of head for various hats. There's like only certain ones I can wear. And, yeah. So I'm so sorry to disappoint.

However, what I can offer you is that I have always, like, I don't know if this is just like a US based thing, but... We have these inflatable tubes called Air Dancers and it gets blown up with air and they just sort of flop around and sometimes they like bow and things like that and they usually have arms, but I've always wanted to be a flailing arm tube person because they have the costumes and just go somewhere utterly ridiculous that's like serious, but not super serious, but to like offer some people comedic relief by just like running around and just being like urururururur Something it's just flailing wildly except that it's not gonna happen because number one I probably wouldn't find a costume that I'm happy with and number two Now that I'm 36, honestly, I don't think my body could handle that.

I think I'd break myself so fast, especially as a neurodivergent person. So I don't think it would work out, but I would aspire to do that, for sure. And certainly, I would love to do that for you, Dulce. Thank you for your questions and your kind words.

[00:23:37] Maze: Hi Charlie, this is Maze. I just want to say I love you so much, friend, and I'm so, so grateful to have you in my circle of community and chosen family and friends. I'm just, I'm very, very lucky to have you exist in my life, so thank you. I would love to hear you talk about how The relationships that you have had in your life with friends or family, any sort of relationships that you would like to touch on, how those have evolved and changed as you have become more aligned to who you are and your journey with gender and your name and your beautiful self.

[00:24:30] Charlie Ocean: Oh gosh, thank you so much, sweet friend. I love you too! It's really hard not to gush about all of my friends as I'm answering these, it would just become like the longest episode ever, so. That is why I am refraining, however, my relationships have changed a great deal. I honestly think one of the first people to see me for me were my bullies, because they saw me in a way that I didn't realize was really important to me, and although they were incredibly mean about it, I think now, as an adult, I appreciate knowing that someone saw me for me.

Even if they didn't take it in a good way. My dad and my grandma were mostly okay with me being a tomboy growing up, but it became a source of contention within the family. And historically, my dad would have my back, but there became a point at which he started giving in to his mom and then teamed up against me.

Constant fights over what gender clothing I'm wearing. I even missed out on some really important opportunities because we were fighting about me not wanting to wear a dress. There were a lot of awards I got for doing things within the LGBTQ plus community. And I didn't get to see them out in the audience, and that was always really hard, and isolating, and hurt, frankly.

It was always something that they feared, that they didn't want to talk about, that they were scared of, and it hurt. By the time I started, Transitioning, medically, once my beard started coming in, it wasn't safe for me to live at home anymore, and I wasn't welcome there. That was the final straw. And my dad kept trying to say, well, why can't you just shave the beard?

And I kept trying to explain that I was the happiest I'd ever been. Because I was getting so close to, or closer, to aligning with who I saw myself to be. It took getting kicked out, and time and space to be able to come back and try to salvage a relationship with the two of them. And actually, I gave them an opportunity to come to one more awards ceremony that was really important to me.

And to my surprise, and maybe theirs as well, they said yes. So, it was for me at that time, claiming the identity of trans and doing work within the trans community. And I got my family back. And not only did I get my family back, I got them in a way where they finally saw me for me. Oh god, I'm crying. They finally saw me for me, and it just changed our whole dynamic.

Like, I mean, that night I was going and getting games for us, my grandma cooked us dinner, and I was so grateful. It made up for all of the times that they weren't there, all of the abuse, and I don't say that lightly, but it just made up for all of the ways in which they had failed me, because it just, it gave me some closure.

And it felt like they were finally learning how to love me unconditionally, and to love me for me. Now, they didn't understand everything, but when I talked to them about wanting to get top surgery, they even donated toward helping me to cover the funds for that, which was a huge fucking deal, especially again after all of the years and years, the decades of fighting over me.

I mean, I would even come home after having horrible bouts of being bullied, and no empathy, nothing, just my grandma would say things like, Well, you dress that way, so what do you expect, kind of thing, and I would just, like, shut down. Now, they didn't fully see me for me, but they tried really hard, they were never able to use my they them pronouns, but they did start calling me Chris at that time, which was what I was going by.

And my grandma really fucking tried. She would even send me cards saying, you know, I love my grandson and things like that. And so, I had to have like, that piece with them. And I was so grateful to have that come full circle with both of them before they both respectively died from different health issues.

However, it's also created a really fucking bumpy... grieving process. There have been friends over the years who have gotten me, and I'm so grateful for them. There have been lots of folks who have come and gone. There were times I stayed in abusive relationships that I just didn't think I deserved better, and I thought that's as good as it was going to get, because who could possibly love me?

And I can confidently say now that I fucking love who I have in my life. And they are my favorite people in the world. Full stop. Even when I started sharing the update with folks that I was going by Charlie, and I didn't have the last name yet or anything like that, but I was sharing this life update with them, every single person I've shared it with so far has been fucking amazing.

I'm talking, sending me screenshots of updating my name in their phones, they asked me if, like, I'm doing another Chris Angel, or if it's just Charlie, they asked me how to spell Charlie. I mean, just, like, fucking phenomenal, and I was just so blown away because it hasn't always been that way. And I owe most of my success to the kindness of strangers who didn't owe me shit, who didn't know me, and have come into my life at different points, and have helped me to get where I needed to go next.

I am so fucking lucky and grateful to those people. There were teachers, like Miss Johnson, that I had for first and third grade, who was fucking incredible and like, one of the very first adults to stick up for me, and make me feel like I was worthy and deserving of love when my family couldn't do that for me.

People like Richard, who kicked off my second season, who's become a grandfather to me. People like Havilah, who have seen me in some of my darkest hours, and just sat with me in that, even though that wasn't easy. I am definitely not rich financially, quite the opposite. However, I am wealthy as fuck when it comes to outstanding humans, and I'm serious, like, top fucking notch humans in my life, who I am so lucky to know and connect with.

Including people like Maze.

[00:31:16] Jacob: Hey Charlie, I want to know what your favorite story is. Whether it's a book, novella, television series, movie, you get the gist. It can even be a limited series. And I want to know why does it matter so much to you? What do you think people can learn about you from it? And, uh, what do you think people can learn in general?

From your favorite story. All right. Thanks. It's your friend, Jacob. Okay. Goodbye.

[00:31:55] Charlie Ocean: Delightfully awkward. Thank you, Jacob. Oh gosh. The good place. That is my favorite show ever currently and has been since it first came out. I fully intend on revisiting it every now and then to see things I didn't catch the first time, and see how things land depending on where I'm at in my life when I'm watching it.

I think it made things like philosophy really accessible to people, in a way. It got really fucking deep, and I'm a deep person, I'm a big thinker too, I will go on a spiral, I will go down a rabbit hole, I mean I have been known to overthink, and I've had people give me that feedback as much, but I think it's great, and I think it's also part of my neurodivergence, but I just get really fucking curious about stuff.

Like, not all of us want to be treated the same, and so I don't think they talked about this at all in The Good Place, but that show reminds me of the Platinum Rule. It was coined in the 1970s, and basically it says, treat others the way they want to be treated. Not the Golden Rule, which has said, treat others the way you want to be treated, because that, that doesn't make any sense to me anymore.

Not all of us want to be treated the same. Not all of us are honored by the same actions. Not all of us want the same kinds of supports. The writing was fucking excellent, the acting, it was perfectly cast. I find all of the characters to be relatable in some way. And the whole premise of it blew my fucking mind.

Because I remember watching the series finale of season one and I was like, Wait, but the show's over. How, what? Like, how is there gonna be a season two? I don't understand. What are they gonna talk about? I just like, I lost it. I lost it. There were such great timely jokes for things that were going on in the world.

There's this one comment in particular that Michael makes about frozen yogurt that cracked me the fuck up. And it just highlights ethical dilemmas, right? I can go to a grocery store, and I can buy bananas, and I have the option to get bananas or organic bananas, but maybe the company that owns the organic bananas, even though supposedly that's supposed to be better in certain respects...

Maybe they're awful humans, and they don't treat their workers well at all, and have horrific working conditions. So like, sometimes we think we're making a good decision and doing the right thing, but there can be so many unintended consequences that we may never know about. So if there were this theoretical system that was calculating how good or bad we are, it would be super fucking nuanced.

Especially because of the access to technology that we have today. So I feel like people would see my quizzical nature, my quirks, my flaws, and my deep commitment to understanding the world and people around me and how I can show up and be better that much more every day and every moment.

[00:35:00] Christine: Hi Charlie, this is Christine, and I'm wondering, what is your favorite dessert and why?

[00:35:07] Charlie Ocean: This has come up in different ways in my life recently, and I'm fucking fascinated by this question, but a churro. And not just any churro. I love the churros the most. And it's because they are a very generous portion, they have the perfect ratio of sugar to cinnamon, they are perfectly crunchy on the outside yet soft inside, and I just fucking love those churros.

The place that comes in second is a chain called El Pollo Loco. That sells them, that are like, shorter stubs, but it's like, similar quality, so I love those. But I fucking hate when people are like, Let's infuse it with mint chocolate and dip it in this. Like, get the fuck away from my churro. Do not fuck with my churro.

The churro is already perfect on its own, and when you start adding toppings and shit, when you start stuffing it with stuff, no. You are, you are ruining my churro. Do not touch my churro. Sometimes there's just hills I die on, and I couldn't tell you how they come to be, but... That's, that is a thousand percent one of them.

And, uh, I hope someone else out there understands and is also a, I guess, a churro purist, cause yeah.

[00:36:33] Sam: Hey, Charlie, it's Sam. I'd like to ask you, how will Charlie show up in the world in ways that you never have before?

[00:36:40] Charlie Ocean: There's a lot of friends like Sam podcasts for me nearly daily. And this has been coming up a lot because. Since I decided to change my name to Charlie Ocean, it has created a rift in myself as a human, and now there's Chris Angel and Charlie duking it out for the driver's seat of my life, and it's exhausting.

And a lot to deal with, because Chris Angel, again, even though I've always known that I was going to change my name one final time in the future, it's just happened so fucking fast that I feel like there's a child wound of... Like, baby me feeling discarded or tossed away or something and that's not what I'm trying to do, but there definitely is a difference in who I am when I'm Charlie and Charlie is in the driver's seat.

So, Charlie, as I am slowly coming to find, is a fucking unhinged, loose cannon, I think mostly, in good ways, deeply unmasks, which scares the shit out of Chris Angel, and is confident in a way I've never been able to be as Chris Angel, especially authentically. Charlie just moves forward with confidence. So it's become incredibly important for me to figure out how to release my former names, especially Chris Angel, with love.

And I've figured that out, and it involves the ocean, and I will share more about that someday. But I'm excited to continue to learn who Charlie is, because I think this is the version of me going back to my younger self. I think this was who I was always meant to be, and it's taken me this long to get here.

A perfect example of Charlie's confidence is that I was supposed to come out as Charlie on September 17th for my birthday, but Charlie was like, I can't fucking wait, what are we waiting for? Let's go! And so instead came out on August 12th when I was celebrating my 15 year anniversary of taking testosterone.

And so, yeah, that threw a wrench in a bunch of my plans. And it's just sped up the timeline on a lot of things. There are also things that, as Charlie, I'm considering doing that I don't know that Chris Angel would have ever considered doing. But again, the underlying difference being just a confidence, a cool, calm confidence.

So it's gonna take some time for me to get used to Charlie, especially as I am slowly releasing Chris Angel with love. And I'm excited to see where this goes.

[00:39:26] Sam: What is Charlie Ocean's favorite movie?

[00:39:28] Charlie Ocean: I'm curious to discover this because historically I would say my top favorite movies are Her, Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind, The Truman Show, and maybe like the 90s series of The Addams Family, like those movies.

However, I'm curious to see if those are still the top for me, now that I am embracing becoming Charlie Ocean. Part of what I loved about Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind, and also the Truman show, is because I saw Jim Carrey in a way that I hadn't seen him before. Before he's been so like, over the top, with his movements and everything, and he was just these big loud characters, and he still is to a degree, especially in Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind, however...

It was just in a different way, and I thought that movie was so fucking beautiful, well cast, amazing soundtrack, visually stunning, a very interesting premise, and one of the things that impressed me too is that they did old school camera tricks instead of doing things like CGI, which, not, you know, knocking on that at all, but I just thought it was really fucking impressive because...

How they shot it, like, I would have never guessed. It was just incredible. True story, ever since I saw that movie, my iPods over the years, even if they weren't blue, were called Blue Ruin. Because there's this scene where one of the lead characters is talking about the names of different hair colors, and one of them was Blue Ruin, and she lists some other ones too, but...

Blue Ruin really stood out to me for some reason, so that's what I call my iPods.

[00:41:13] Sam: Do you have any other new identities that you'd like to share with us?

[00:41:16] Charlie Ocean: I've recently come to find that... More often than not, I'll say I'm non binary, and that's true, but more specifically, I'm agender, because that just feels more aligned.

I think it goes back to one of Havilah's questions of free. How do I feel free? Or what does that look like? And, yeah, it's just not having gender expectations imposed on me. When someone just treats me like a human being, aka, Charlie Ocean, that's what feels best, and I think agender helps explain that.

[00:41:48] Sam: Are there other ways that you would like the world to view you differently with your name change?

[00:41:53] Charlie Ocean: Like, to get the fuck over my beard. And more specifically what I mean by that is, I love my beard, and I appreciate the compliments that I get on it, but there are a lot of people who use it as a way to disconnect from me.

They cannot see past it, and in their mind, that is... equal to man, and therefore I am a man, and if I don't want people to think I'm a man, then I shouldn't have it, and all of that, and it's just like, just... Fuckin de gender beards, please, for the love of God and all that is holy, please. Un gender, de gender, whatever it is, just like, stop it, cause I feel like pushback I get from people in the general public is, but you have a beard.

I do not care. I do care because I love my beard, and like, I need people to see beyond that, so that feels really important to me.

[00:42:54] Sophie: Hi Charlie, it's Sophie. I'm just wondering, what was it like the first time that you heard someone call you by your name? I'd love to hear what that felt like. Thank you, I love you.

[00:43:06] Charlie Ocean: Oh my god, you are so fucking cute, I can't stand it. Thank you, and I love you, too. Just a few days after I had started slowly telling some of my friends that I was going to be going by Charlie moving forward, and I wanted to test it out with them, one of my best and favorite humans in the world, Tonya, came over just a few days later, and I got to tell them in person.

And not long after I shared that with her, she called me Charlie out loud, and it was the first time I heard someone else call me Charlie. And I didn't hear anything else that she said after that because all of a sudden I had a full body experience. Like, I started tearing up in the best way, and started crying a bit, and I felt like my heart was palpitating.

I don't know if when others may experience a crush for somebody, how that manifests in their body, but for me... I tend to get, like, heart flutters and warm and fuzzies, like, also, like, in my stomach and stuff, and it also simultaneously felt like I was at home and cozy. All of that happened at the same time.

It completely overwhelmed my system, and I was just like, whoa, what is happening? So I literally had to stop my friend Tonya and tell them, like, wait, wait, wait, hold on, I'm having, like, a full body reaction to hearing my name for the first time. I need to talk about this. And yeah, I was. So grateful that that was a moment that I could share with someone so close to me.

And since then, almost every time, especially in the first few weeks, almost every time someone calls me Charlie, it still gives me. These, like, warm and fuzzies, and heart flutters, and whatever that is, and it feels so good, in a way that I've never experienced before with any other name.

[00:44:59] Rex: Hey Charlie, it's Rex. You know, we have been friends for such a long time now, for what? I don't know, like eight years or so. And it's so funny because I don't think I actually know how you decided to get into social work or your MSW program. And so I'd love you to talk a little bit more and tell me about how did you decide to get into social work and what led you to doing your MSW?

[00:45:24] Charlie Ocean: You are so sweet and thank you so much. College wasn't always part of my plans. I guess I just never saw myself going for a bunch of reasons. I mean, money, I didn't know what the hell I wanted to do. Honestly, I didn't even think I was going to live that long. It's a very common thread amongst folks in the LGBTQ community.

So I just didn't really think far ahead much because I was so stuck in the present just trying to get through each moment and deal with every hurdle that was coming my way. I had teachers and later professors early on who encouraged me to go and to keep going and said that I had so much potential and that I should live up to it.

I decided to listen to those trusted adults and figure out what that was going to look like. I went to community college. I was there for quite a while because I didn't know what I was doing, and nothing was really like, calling to me in terms of subjects. I definitely had interest, it's just not enough that I wanted to pursue formal education around it.

But then I was in a sociology class and I was like, shit, yeah, I am fascinated by people. And I feel like it was probably one of the most neurodivergent reactions I've ever had to something, but yeah, so I really enjoyed that course. And then when I was finishing up my. A. A. it was in sociology. I got accepted to different bachelor's programs for sociology, but then at some point between being accepted and starting, I quickly pivoted to social work.

Part of that was because I was trying to understand what my trajectory would be if I went into sociology and what kind of jobs I could have, and I didn't really like those options. But social work provided a more generalist degree, and it borrowed from places like sociology and psychology, so I thought that was a better fit.

So I got my bachelor's, and I got my master's, because for whatever reason. As a social worker, you can't call yourself one unless you have your master's, which I've never heard that before for any other program, and I'm sure maybe it might exist, but it just felt really yuck. But also to make sure that I was gonna be able to have a living wage, I thought it might be important to go and get my master's, too.

And honestly, the school I went to for my bachelor's, I had such a bad experience, I almost quit entirely. But, yeah. I, Now, understand that my going into social work was trying to make sense of the world around me and thinking about all the injustice I faced and the injustices of the world. I wanted tools to be able to do something about that.

Early on in my life, I didn't realize it, but I was doing community organizing, and eventually by high school, I focused more exclusively on LGBTQ plus organizing because I was finally starting to get the language and learn about the community. It was also really weird getting into social work, because so many of the programs are clinical focused, but luckily I went to the University of Southern California, and they had a macro program that they called COPA at the time, and it's undergone many name changes.

Hashtag relatable. It was really interesting to me. However, my roots are in grassroots organizing and community organizing period, so I probably could have still made a good life for myself without going through all of that trouble. But there's also a lot of connections I probably wouldn't have made, and I learned a lot about myself.

But sometimes I jokingly say that going into social work was just a giant fucking trauma response. And yeah, there's some friends who also feel that same way.

[00:49:05] Rex: With everything that's going on in the world right now, what are some of the things that are actually bringing joy into your life right now?

[00:49:11] Charlie Ocean: The things bringing me the most joy these days are community and nature.

So specifically, I love spending time with people who are also neuroqueer, because when I hang out with folks who are at that intersection, which is like nearly all of my friends at this point, it just feels so much more natural and better. I don't feel like... People are judging me, I feel like they get me, we have these really interesting monologues and tangents and sidequests and all sorts of things happening in our conversation, and it just feels really good.

The nature, for sure, especially if I get to go somewhere with a friend. Like, go on a walk, go hiking, something like that, go for a bike ride. That feels really good. Nature is just super grounding, and because of the nature of my work, I don't always get to go outside, especially if I'm having really long days.

So, it becomes even more important for me to prioritize that time so I can get outside. There's definitely lots of other things to bring me joy, but those feel like the most grounding forces right now.

[00:50:21] Cody: Hey Charlie, it's Cody. If you could pick one interesting or inspiring queer figure who is no longer with us to interview on the podcast, who would you choose?

[00:50:31] Charlie Ocean: Ooh! I immediately think of Marsha P. Johnson, and here's why. Lately, I have gone down this deep fucking rabbit hole that is just making me more flustered and more confused than when I started it in the first place, because I am hearing conflicting things about Marsha, as far as which pronouns Marsha used, because some people are arguing that she used she her pronouns, some people are arguing that he used he him pronouns.

And I don't know the fucking answer, and there are people who I guess have, like, lied or something about Marsha actually being there and present and fighting during the Stonewall riots, or fighting over whether Marsha is trans or not, because apparently that wasn't language that Marsha had used at that time, and it was a newer term, so I think it came a little bit after marsha's time and that Marsha was actually a drag queen. And so my brain has glitched out and I don't know what to do because I don't know who the hell to listen to. And so I would love to talk to Marsha, thank Marsha for all of the wonderful work that Marsha has done to help move our cause forward and just get some fucking clarity on what pronouns, what identities.

How can we honor you? Like, yeah, I am desperate to have that conversation with Marsha. Now, if I weren't going down this massive fucking rabbit hole and hurting my brain, then the other thing that I would do is I would try to somehow be able to interview someone from my bloodline who has long come before me and is also part of the LGBTQ plus community, whether or not they had the language for it and like how they would describe their experience, compare notes about like how things were when they were around and where were they and all that.

Like, I think it would be just absolutely incredible to be able to reach back into my family's history. And find those people, if even just like, one person, because I know they have to exist. I know they do. Yeah, I just feel like having that conversation and like, telling them about what it's like present day would just be a really surreal experience for both of us.

It would be such an honor to meet them and to get to know them and their story.

[00:53:07] Leo Yockey: Hi Charlie, it's your friend Leo Yockey. How's it going? Congratulations on the new name and congratulations on going public about it. I saw the other day that you posted an Instagram thing inviting people to subscribe to your sub stack and you announced that your new name was Charlie. And I'm curious, what made you decide that that was the way that you wanted to announce it?

Okay, that is my question.

[00:53:38] Charlie Ocean: Hi friend. My intention was to tell people before I made the announcement, so like those closer to me, so that all of my friends heard it from me first, versus Seeing it on social media and it was quickly getting overwhelming because I was having a lot of one off conversations And they went so well, they went so well, but it was getting to be a lot and Charlie was getting more anxious and more pressing about moving up the timeline because September 17th didn't feel soon enough and it honestly was getting really weird being in this like in between of some people knowing some people not knowing And then figuring out how the fuck to navigate those situations, including like, my email signatures, and what names showed up when I was emailing people.

All of it. All of it was getting to be a lot, and then I just thought, you know what, this is not, this isn't working, and I'm gonna have to up my timeline. So it wasn't my intention, originally, to make the announcement coinciding with my... 15 year testosterone anniversary, or the substack, but because I knew I was going to be changing all of my handles to HiCharlieOcean, I thought, well, if I do, like, Chris Angel or something first and then I'm switching it, like, I'm just going to be confusing more and more people and getting deeper into this rabbit hole, so.

For a lot of reasons, it just felt better to move up the timeline, and also, like, not have to wait for some arbitrary date necessarily, but it felt like a good way to also announce the substack, and to honor these past 15 years of taking testosterone. And just, like, what's changed for me? So all of it just felt serendipitous, and that maybe it'd be best to sort of address everything all at once.

[00:55:29] Leo Yockey: I've thought about, like, what if I want to change my name again in the future? I've thought about changing my last name, but it's a lot of work. It's a lot of work. It's a lot of time. It's a lot of energy to change your name. And that's been a huge deterrent for me. Um, so I'm kind of curious for you, like, what happens, like, what kind of led you to that tipping point where you're like, I don't care how much energy it takes, like, I'm gonna move forward with this.

Assuming that you're doing a legal change, because, you know, you can change your name without legally changing it as well. So, I'm just making an assumption. But anyway, oh my gosh, the thing turned red. My minute is almost up. Okay, bye.

[00:56:14] Charlie Ocean: My friends are so fucking cute. Oh gosh. It's already been a nightmare, honestly.

Changing my name online, and I know there's places I still haven't changed it yet, and I'm sure people are fucking confused, because they're like, I thought you were Charlie Ocean, who the fuck is Chris Angel? And it's like, I know, hang tight, give me a minute. So, I've had to sort of like, mediate all of the confusion that I was alluding to earlier.

I've had to start putting in my email signatures, like, in parentheses, formally, Chris Angel Murphy, just because some things are still in transition, like domain names and stuff like that. And, yeah, it's a lot. And yes, because of my ADHD and how my executive functioning comes up. It is my hell doing admin stuff that's, like, super tedious and time sensitive and very detail oriented.

Like, that's not how my brain is wired. I can do it, but it's to my detriment, and it takes a lot to get into that mindset. So now that I've done it almost everywhere online... It feels important to line it up legally, too, and I was actually hoping to do that part first before I released it out into the wild online, but that's just not how it's happened.

So yeah, it's gonna be an absolute nightmare. I mean, when I changed my name in my 20s, I had way fewer accounts, both like financially, online, you name it, just across the board. But now, there's just so much, and I'm gonna have to decide what to prioritize. But because I'm an entrepreneur and I work with clients a lot individually, I don't want to have any payment issues because they're doing it in Charlie Ocean, but everything legally is still Chris Angel Murphy, or I don't want to get caught in any of those problems, so I'm trying to time it right now so it doesn't mess with any potential trips, it doesn't mess with my taxes.

Whatever, like, anything I may have to apply for, like, I don't want any problems. So, right now, it's more of a timing thing, as far as when I'm gonna be able to legally do it. But there's a few steps, and I'm gonna be getting started very soon, because it's gonna take some time anyway. But I'm gonna be really fucking excited to see it everywhere, because then things will be in alignment, there won't have to be the confusion, and I won't have to, like, sit and explain to everyone.

Like, yeah, I know it says this, but this is my name, and like, have a, you know, revisit the problem I had in the first place that started this whole, like, name change situation. So while it's gonna be a lot of work right now, it's gonna pay off well into the future because there's gonna be very few instances in which I have to explain why I have a few names attached to my social security and what all is going on there.

[00:59:01] Leo Yockey: What is the best way to approach like telling other people about your name change, or I guess name changes in general, like. Assuming that you know that the person has like gone public with their name change, but maybe someone doesn't know. So, if I were to talk to someone that doesn't know your new name, can I just be like, Hey, I was talking to Charlie, by the way, that's what Chris Angel goes by now.

Or is there a better way to do it? What, yeah, any advice there would be lovely. Well, I've never quite known how to navigate that, even being a trans person and having done name changes myself.

[00:59:48] Charlie Ocean: I'm so glad that you brought this up because it's come up a lot with my name change. I've had some other friends ask about this, and it's also come up in other kinds of conversations.

Typically, when I'm doing trans and non binary 101, I explain, and a lot of this is also going to be true for the broader community, that when someone shares who they are with you, to thank them, congratulate them, if that feels appropriate, and then you can ask follow up questions, potentially, that are support based, and you can always come back to them later, if that's not the time, to say, cool, what would you like for me to do in this situation?

Or do you need help telling anyone else? Do you want me to correct people on your behalf? And that would be more explicitly for name and pronouns. So, in this case, what feels good is exactly what you said. So I was hanging out with my friend Charlie, who was going by Chris Angel, but goes by Charlie now, and da da da da da da.

That's gonna feel best. And I know that we want to stray, typically, from using... Birth names, given names, former names, however, I feel that there are certain circumstances in which we have to. Very few, but this is one of them. And what's different is that it's not meant to be malicious or anything like that.

But sometimes people genuinely don't know who the hell Caitlyn Jenner is, for example, and honestly, that makes me happy. But, I, at times, because maybe I don't have a photo of her ready, or I can't look one up or something, I have to start hinting at her career, and sometimes I just have to use the former name.

Now, I don't always like doing this, and it's going to hit differently based on context and all of that, but typically when that happens, people start talking about her in the previous name and previous pronoun set, and I have to gently remind them, she goes by Caitlin now and uses she her pronouns. So that's why I don't like it, but we do want to be clear about who it was, so it can create this really tricky territory.

And because we know that some people want folks to approach this differently, potentially, I think it's, again, one of those things where it is completely acceptable and encouraged to ask someone for that clarification so that if you know you're going to be in that situation, you know how to handle it.

Another layer I want to add to this as an example of what would not be appropriate at all in any particular scenario, unless given explicit permission, of which would probably be incredibly rare, but we wouldn't want to say things like, Oh, you know, before Chris Angel was Charlie, or back when Charlie was Christina, Like, people don't need to know that, because, number one, typically, you are outing someone, and regardless of if they are publicly out or not, it may not be your story to share, and it really depends on what you would be sharing there.

So that would be a time where we wouldn't want to use a former name or anything like that, so you would want to usually, most of the time, let's say, as a guideline, talk in the affirming name and pronouns and adjectives, honorifics, all of that, regardless of the timeline. So, even though someone's a trans woman, and you knew them before they had either maybe discovered that, or started sharing it with people, again, sometimes people use it as a weird flex, and I've had that happen to me before, where people didn't realize the harm, because they will have said it to a table.

And it's people that I don't know, that I probably won't interact with, and honestly, they probably don't give a shit. So, it's happened to me before where people will do that, again, as just a way to show, like, I have known this person for a long time, but there's a lot of better ways to do that, that don't have to revolve around my being non binary or queer or anything like that.

Especially when it just wasn't relevant to the situation. At all. I just want to normalize that I really do love that Leo asked this question because sometimes we're afraid to ask someone about something in a way that's actually gonna help them or support them in a meaningful way. So just like we might see that someone uses two or more pronoun sets and we're not sure how to use them, or yeah, situations like this where someone's recently changed their name and you're not sure who all they're out to or who they've shared it with and things like that.

I think taking the time to connect with them and just let them know, like, Hey, like, this is a really exciting time and I just want to make sure I'm supporting you. When I'm talking to our mutual friends, like, what would you like me to say? I even had friends, like Sophie, when I was first, like, let's say doing a soft launch of Charlie, ask, like, Is it cool to practice with my husband so I can start getting it down and let him know?

And I was like, oh yeah, absolutely, that's amazing, I love it. So, things like that can go a long way.

[01:05:06] Shandel: Hi Charlie, it's Shandel. I hope you're having a wonderful birthday. My question for you is what have been the significant moments through your journey of self discovery and purpose that made you know that you were on the right path to finding your true self? I'd really love to know more about how you have become the amazing person that you are today.

[01:05:30] Charlie Ocean: Aww, thank you so much, sweet friend. I really appreciate that. I feel like the answer that's coming to me the quickest is there were very specific moments I questioned things. So in kindergarten, I could tell that, you know, I was supposedly a girl, and I found myself crushing on other girls, but I also found myself crushing on boys and probably people of other genders, although we didn't know it yet.

And, it felt like something shameful to hide, and so I didn't talk about it with anyone. But, I definitely had those feelings, and I didn't know what they were called. It did feel completely normal and natural, but it also again, just because I didn't see any examples of it, it didn't feel like it was something I could talk about.

I wasn't aware that I wasn't very comfortable in my body in some cases, until my grandma asked me why I was always hiding my chest. And that happened when I was early on in elementary school, and I went out of my way. I think I talked about this a little bit in my episode with MJ, but I would like tug on my shirt to help bring it out, to pull it away from hugging my chest, or I'd wear baggy clothing, or I'd cross my arms, I'd do almost anything.

I had horrible posture, so MJ and I joke about queer posture in two episodes ago. And fucking hurt, too. I have so much back pain to this day because of it, like, my back has never been the same. And I forget that I'm no longer binding, and I don't have to do that kind of stuff anymore. So I have to keep reminding myself to take deeper breaths, because I can breathe now, and push my shoulders back and down, and things like that.

And it's really hard because I was doing it for so fucking long. There was also this distinct moment, I was sitting at the foot of the bed one day, and I must have been either late in elementary school or early in middle school, and I remember thinking very innocently and sweetly, do I want a boy voice or a girl voice?

And I think I very quickly came to the conclusion that I wanted a boy voice, which was really interesting. And I didn't share that with anyone, but it was definitely a thought I had. I never really saw gender with clothing, and I still don't really to this day. So, that decision was never made because I wanted to be a boy, or more masculine, or anything like that.

It was just more sensory friendly, and comfortable, and appealing on the eyes. I had definitely crushed on people before of different genders and everything, but it wasn't until early high school that I started to actually get the language for the LGBTQ plus communities, and that was a game changer, but it was also really bad timing because I had other, like, major things happening, like, That led me to getting into foster care because of stuff that was going on with my family and everything.

So dealing with that on top of everything else, like didn't feel great, but I was very grateful to find the community. And I still am today. What lets me know I'm on the right track is that I am constantly questioning and allowing myself to be fluid with everything. So even though I have changed the language I use to describe my experience, I feel the closest yet to having the most complete picture of who I am.

And I think part of that I'm ADHD and autistic. And I know I'm talking about this a lot for folks who listen to all of the episodes or most of the episodes or however that goes, but it really is critical. It really is an important key in all of this that I was missing that helps me to better explain a lot of my experiences, like the whole sensory part of my.

Gender, or my gender expression. Having people to talk with about this kind of stuff, especially folks who may not exactly feel how I do, but maybe it's similar or related, just having those kinds of spaces where we can have those deep conversations feels really good. And we've come a really fucking long way.

So, in middle school and early high school, I would spend a lot of time going to, like, bookstores, hanging out at the mall with my friends, because we didn't have a lot else to do. And I remember seeing the gay and lesbian section, and that's exactly what it was called. And sometimes there were other kinds of books there, but far and away, it was mostly like, 365 yoga positions for sex, or just everything that people wanted you to believe of the misconceptions of the community.

And it was really disheartening. Fast forwarding to present day, it's absolutely fucking incredible. All of the different types of media we can consume, and while not everyone is being represented, I think we're seeing more and more of it, and we're seeing it more in ways that are intersectional and not just like white people, for example, speaking about their experiences or sharing their experiences.

There's so many books on asexuality now, including by people like Cody who we heard from earlier and who's also been on the podcast. That's fucking incredible because we were not talking about asexuality back when I was first learning about the community. That just wasn't really a thing that we talked about.

It was mostly GLBT or LGBT, and at that it was usually mostly a focus on GLB.

But now, like, just a week ago or so, I watched the film Everybody, and that just came out in late August of 2023, and it follows three intersex activists who had undergone surgery that they didn't consent to to supposedly fix a condition that they should have been able to make a decision about themselves that also had no.

medical urgency to do anything about. And while there are still so many people who don't understand people's trans or non binary experiences, the same is true for just continuing to go down the line of the initialisms or acronyms that we use. So I guess I'm saying it's been most helpful to have communities and tools that can help me to better explain my experiences and hold spaces for those.

[01:11:54] Jill: Hey, Charlie. It's Jill. And I would like to know if you remember when I was first getting to know you and we had made plans to meet for lunch. We went to get some sandwiches and David Bowie had just died. And I was just devastated. And you just took it all in stride. Like, how crushed I was that David Bowie had passed on, and I just thought that was really lovely of you that you thought that having an intense infatuation with a rock star was not weird.

And, um, and then I later learned that when you were young, Hanson was your band. And so, okay, so Charlie, this is the thing I want to know. Who's your favorite Hanson? And what's your favorite Hanson song? Because I recall you saying that you maybe had a Hanson poster on your wall when you were a kid. And so that's the thing that I want to know. Which Hanson? What song? Is it the same song now as back then? You got to tell me. Okay. Bye.

[01:13:11] Charlie Ocean: I feel like I've just been outed. Ah, shit. Ah, this is, there's so many stories I want to share now around Hanson. This is wild. I do remember us having that meal together, and that place was so yummy, and I remember being so grateful that you extended an invitation for us to hang out, and I'm so happy and honored to be a part of your life now, and all of the iterations that it's taken over the years.

I definitely had posters on my walls, I don't know if these still exist anymore, but we used to have magazines like Tiger Heat, and I don't know, basically for like, you know, the Teenie Boppers. It was a magazine so we could learn about like, all of the like, super cute ass boys and stuff, and so I leaned hard into that, and it was genuine, it wasn't like something to like, mask or have a beard, like I really was like, Genuinely invested in this, and so, I had people like JTT, Jonathan Taylor Thomas, Andrew Keegan, Backstreet Boys, Hanson, NSYNC, like, I had a lot of them on my walls, and it was a lot.

It was a lot, and usually in the magazines, you either got, like, you know, the magazine size page, or sometimes they'd have foldable ones that you could take out and then put up, and that was really neat. I did love Hanson for a really long time, and I genuinely do have a million stories around it, but so that this podcast episode ends at a relatively reasonable time, I'm gonna skip many of them today.

However, I was like deeply invested. I made a game in elementary school that was really popular so people could learn more about Hanson and all of the facts. I can't remember shit now. But, I know that Taylor was my favorite, but I liked all of them. And, I think I just felt a kinship with them, too, because they would get all this hate because people would be like, Oh, I thought there were girls, and da da da, and I mean, that was the kind of shit I was experiencing, but like, on the opposite end of, I thought you were a boy, blah blah blah, and whatever, and so I think I felt a connection to them there.

Middle of Nowhere was such a good album, and I really only didn't like maybe one or two of the songs on that album, but pretty much the rest of them I was listening to. And they were so fucking talented. The song I think I listened to the most originally was Weird. I just really love the instrumentals of it.

I don't know that I really cared for the video that much since it was one of the singles, but, I don't know, it just tugged at something in me. I'm not the biggest Christmas person, but every year I listen to their Christmas album, Snowed In, because I just thought it was perfect. I like, again, nearly all of the songs on there, and I can sing them, and it was just really cool, but that's not normally something I would listen to.

They did come up with a follow up one that I think they were nervous about releasing because they weren't sure it was going to receive the same kind of hype. And I think it was pretty good, but I definitely didn't like it as much as Snowdin. I have to be honest about that. One of the first communities I joined online was Hansonworld.

And it was this virtual place where you had like an avatar, you could meet all these other people who liked Hanson too, and it was really neat. I used to have a lot more of their music, including really rare demos and other albums, but now I really only have Middle of Nowhere, This Time Around, and Snowed In.

So, I would say, probably... This time around would be my favorite album to listen to at any point in the year. However, one of my favorite songs by them ever is called Never Let Go, and it took me four fucking ever to track down a full version of it. At this point, I just allow their music to hold a special place in my heart, and while I don't follow them around anymore, Currently, or actively, I appreciate a lot of the wonderful memories I have as a result of their music and being able to connect with other people.

[01:17:39] Ed: Hey Charlie, this is Ed and I would love to know if you would want to come to Candy Mountain with me. All jokes aside, love you so much and I love that lately I feel like you've been tapping into this wonderful and brilliant energy that you have and you've been showing up for yourself in new and amazing ways.

And I would love to know... what it is that makes you feel connected, makes you tap into that energy, and how do you embrace those moments? How do you breathe them in? Because you are a beacon of light and I love you so much. So I would love to know about that. Okay. Love you. Bye

[01:18:26] Charlie Ocean: My friends are just so fucking cute. I love them so much. Ah, all right And thank you so much for your incredibly kind words. I know I've been touching on this a little bit, but I feel like I'm definitely having an integration problem, where I'm having to learn to trust myself, because Charlie feels like a new person, and so there is some distrust, concern, etc.,

coming from Chris Angel, but Charlie is me. So to not trust myself is weird, right? And I'm kinda caught in this bizarre loop, so I think it's just taking time to be able to breathe Charlie in, and trust that things are gonna be okay. And so far it has been feeling really good, because there have been some friendships that have had to be sunset that it was time for, that Charlie was able to take care of, that Chris Angel was better than previous versions, but still it was hard.

I don't think it gives me a clean slate or anything to embrace being Charlie, and I don't know how to explain that. What I think I could best say about this, and to try to answer this question as best as possible, is that Charlie is at a different frequency than previous versions of myself. All previous versions of me are at different frequencies, and I say it that way intentionally because I don't think there's any good, I don't think there's any bad, I just think that there are different versions, and sometimes maybe those can be favorite versions of myself.

And so far, Charlie is my favorite version of myself, even though Chris Angel is still scared and freaking out and things like that. It's weird because no one's ever said this to me, but in this moment, I'm thinking, I feel like I'm really good at taking up space, but in ways where somehow I still make myself smaller, and it's the most bizarre thing, and I think that Charlie isn't doing that anymore, is just taking up space unapologetically.

Sometimes I joke about needing an adultier adult, sometimes when decisions feel hard and everything, and again, in this moment, I'm now realizing that's probably Charlie. Charlie is probably the adultier adult that I need, but also simultaneously the person I needed to get back to in my childhood that was taken from me.

I think the best way to take all of this in is for me to continue to breathe and just be open and curious about learning who Charlie is, including some of the things that are the same, like some of those same threads that I've carried throughout my life, and also being able to have an opportunity to explore things differently.

[01:21:10] Danielle: Hey Charlie, this is Danielle, and I want to talk about the epic mixed CDs you used to make back in the day, like 2017. I will have you know, they are the only CDs that still live in my car and get played at least occasionally in these days of digital media. What I would like to know is, do you still make them?

And if so, how do I get my hands on them? Thanks.

[01:21:34] Charlie Ocean: Again, my friends are fucking adorable, and it's hard to take sometimes. Thank you, that means a lot, I had no idea. I love that. When I was still on Facebook, like, a million years ago, aka around 2017, like, she said, I decided to do an experiment where I kind of like sending care packages, and I thought like I really love introducing people to music, especially artists and all that that they may not know.

So I decided that I was going to create different playlists, but then I was only going to burn the CDs, that was the only way folks could get it, and then there was also the pressure of timing and stuff because you can only put so many songs on a CD. And a lot of that has to do with the quality of it, how long it is, all of that kind of fun stuff.

So it becomes a challenge, because then you can only put, like, maybe 20 songs at most? Again, really depends. So, I created some different themes, I loaded a fuckton of songs on those different themes that I thought fit the theme really well. And then I agonized for a long time over which songs would make the cut or not.

And I also... Very intentionally chose the order in which the songs played like the songs that kick things off Needed to be more of like what felt like an intro song and then the ones that were ending the mix Needed to feel like it was kind of wrapping things up nicely in a bow or something. How do I explain that?

I don't fucking know. It's just a vibe. So I created quite a few of them There's Heartbreak, Chill AF, so chill as fuck, uh, there's Still Chill Volume 2, which felt like the natural progression, Happy, which honestly was not very happy, I was fucking terrible at that theme, I don't know why I did that, someone suggested it, and I tried it out, and it didn't work, but I pushed it anyway, and it was not a good idea, but there's still good songs on there, I just don't know that you would call those happy.

There's Indie Movie, Kinda Mix, and then... Late Night Drives, all the way from Volume 1 to 3, and Sounds of Summer. It was just a really fun project for me, and to have an anchor of a theme to stick to. I also had a lot of fun figuring out the album covers, and I literally designed them in Photoshop, printed them out, and everything.

Like, I had a whole fucking production line going on in my kitchen for this, and I had people sign up, and... Shit, I ended up spending like, probably over 100 shipping these things out, but it was really fun for me, and it was really nice to hear that people liked so many of the songs. For the past several weeks, I decided, okay.

I love the 90s, I also love the early aughts in terms of music, but 90s is definitely in first place and so I figured if I make a playlist of 36 of my favorite 90s songs for my birthday, then that could be kinda cute, right? Except it fuckin got out of hand, and very rapidly so, and now it has over 400 songs.

And you know what? Sam had actually suggested that I break them up, maybe, into different playlists for like different genres, and I've decided to choose Chaos because I'm Charlie. And Charlie Ocean has decided that we're just gonna release all fucking 400 plus of them and then people can just listen at random and then hopefully like the songs.

But it was hard to pick these because I genuinely like them, I know most of the lyrics. Some I know a little bit better than others, but I know most of the lyrics and I genuinely love these and like would sing these. Some of them I didn't hear until later, like sneaker pimps really didn't get on my radar until the early aughts, but the music was from the 90s, so there's situations like that.

There's also a lot of genres I listen to that I don't think can be fully represented in the 90s. It might stretch a little bit more if I also included the early aughts there, but this playlist is already over 400 fucking songs, so we're not gonna do that. And that also took a lot of time, so therefore, I will happily share that playlist, but yes.

I do sometimes still make playlists, usually it's on Spotify, usually it's cause like, alright, I'm gonna make this person a, like, workout playlist, or I wanna do another, like, late night drive style, like, playlist, because then I also use iTunes and Spotify. And so having my music split between the two is creating a lot of chaos.

So some of it I'm trying to move over into iTunes so that it can also be on my iPod. And I don't have to worry about Spotify, like making a song disappear because suddenly they lose the rights to it or whatever the fuck. So yeah, that said, Danielle, it would be happy to create some new ones for you. So thanks for being so kind and sweet.

Listen, it was so fucking hard to not gush about how much I love all of these humans. How I met them, why I love them, how our relationships have evolved over time, I mean there's just so much history there. And truly, these were people from different parts of my life, and different ways of connecting, which has felt amazing.

My hope was in doing this, for any of you who've been wondering more about me as the host, since usually I'm having chats with other folks, and Passing the mic to them. I've been trying to find the balance of inserting myself a little bit more. And it felt like because of these milestones that have been piling up as of late, that this would be a good time to do such a project like this.

So I just want to say thank you so fucking much to each of you who turned something in and yeah, allowed me the opportunity to better understand how you experience me, and revisit some memories, and also just answer your amazing questions. I had initially thought maybe I would do something where I'm Chris Angel, and then I'm interviewing Charlie and then I spiraled because I was like, well, wait, what would even be interesting to people that is a lot of my voice to listen to?

How would I differentiate between the two? Like, it just got out of control. And then I thought, you know, we have so many versions that exist of us, not even just because of our timelines and how we evolve. As humans during the course of our life, but also because every person who knows us has their own versions of us.

Like when we first met their current version of us, maybe what they see for us. And so it's just kind of wild and easy to spiral about that as well. But I feel like it's just, yeah, cool and interesting and fun to experience. Thank you for listening.

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