[00:00:00] Chris Angel Murphy: Well, hello there. I'm Chris Angel, and my pronouns are they/them. Welcome to Allyship as a Verb, the LGBTQ+ podcast for people practicing allyship for the LGBTQ+ community and beyond!

All right, cool. Go ahead. I won't look.

[00:00:27] Ed Carratalà: Hey there, Chris Angel. No, I'm sorry, maybe that one… [both laugh]

[00:00:34] Chris Angel Murphy: You're so cute.

Ed Carratalà: Okay. I'm so sorry.

Chris Angel Murphy: Oh my gosh, so cute.

[00:00:38] Ed Carratalà: Okay, just, just hey and name and things. Okay. Hey, I'm Ed Carratalà. My pronouns are he/him.

[00:00:49] Chris Angel Murphy: October 3rd, 2021, I got a clapping emoji from Ed to a story I had posted on Instagram. We'd start to do this for each other's stories. By February 1st, 2022, I would get my first message from Ed that wasn't just an emoji reaction to a story. He took the time to say a lot of beautiful things that had me ugly crying for sure, including about the impact of my podcast and the effect that it was having on him. It's interesting hearing Ed's allyship tip because it mimics exactly what we first started talking about in our Instagram thread.

We'd also talk about his kid or themes coming up with his students and clients. By June 3rd, 2022, he wanted me to know that he'd been thinking about me and extended an invitation for friendship. He saw that I was really struggling and having incredibly negative experiences with therapists, and so he decided to reach out. It was so, so kind and sincere. He also shared about how excited he was for his first Pride, which warmed my heart.

July 16th, 2022 we had our first video chat and we spoke for over two hours [laughs]. And honestly, it's hard for us to have a call to this day that isn't at least two to three hours, or more. I can easily say I love Ed so fucking much and he's become an incredibly important person in my life. I hope to fly out to Barcelona someday from Denver to give him a bajillion hugs and hang out for as long as we can.

That said, Ed is a therapist and professor. He's spent some time living around various parts of the states, but these days he lives in Barcelona with his partner and their itty-bitty child. There's so much more to him, but I'm incredibly biased at this point now that he's close to my heart. So I will let the conversation speak for itself.

But first, here's three self-reflection questions to ponder during our convo. And be sure to stay after for three more.

1. How do I know if I belong in a space? What lets me know that? How does it feel in my body?

2. Have I ever been to Pride? Why or why not?

3. Have I ever been under the influence of alcohol or drugs in attempt to bring out a vulnerable part of myself?

And now, our conversation.

You are bisexual, queer, and a systemic therapist. What do those intersections mean to you?

[00:03:52] Ed Carratalà: Starting with bisexual; it means, for me that I get to show up as my most authentic self, cause it's something that I did hide for a while, 33 years and some change. And continuing with queer, it's an expansive idea to what bisexual means to me. It's also including the way I show up in the world, not just, my attractions, and also includes my gender and how I present gender-wise.

And systemic therapist is, I feel, the way I show up and the way I offer myself as a resource. And to me being a systemic therapist is the way I look at the world and the way I relate with the world, and it's very focused on relationships and the relationship dynamics. All of those come together, for me, because it's the way it can be most affirmative for queer clients specifically, but all clients in general.

[00:04:53] Chris Angel Murphy: Some folks might use bisexual or queer to describe their experience, but you're using both intentionally, so how do they honor you differently?

[00:05:03] Ed Carratalà: Bisexual for me is the one that I came to terms with first, and it's sort of like a- my gateway to my queer identity. Even though I use it as an umbrella term, not in a binary kind of a way, so I sometimes also refer as a “bi” without including the “sexual”, because it's like a more complex identity. But I feel it's the one that's more specific about how I relate to queerness for myself.

Queer, for me it's different because it also includes like more expansive opportunity.

The other “q” in a way, the questioning aspect of how I try to keep myself in a constant state of questioning, both for myself and for others, the liberty of playing with different parts and different identities that we may all explore.

[00:05:54] Chris Angel Murphy: I don't think I've ever heard anyone describe like, let's say capital B “Bi”, versus bisexual, as like two different things.

Ed Carratalà: Hmm.

Chris Angel Murphy: I know that you know, as a community we love shorthand because , it just makes it easier cause there can be so many terms and experiences that can feel a little bit more clunky for a lack of a better term. Sometimes we're trying to give someone just like a quick idea of who we are, but it's really interesting that you described it in that way, and that, by removing the sexual part, you're not denying sexuality-

Ed Carratalà: Mm-hmm.

Chris Angel Murphy: But you just don't want that to be the main focus, I guess is how I'm- I'm processing in real time here is what's happening [laughs]. So, that's really cool. How did you come to that decision? Or how did you come to using “bi” in that way?

[00:06:44] Ed Carratalà: I think it was something that's diluted over time and experiences, but throughout multiple conversations and, and this idea of that usually the bisexual - since other queer identities have ways of expressing without using the “sexual” - so for example, “homosexual” has “gay” or “lesbian” in that idea.

So the word sexual that becomes very distracting for a lot of people, is already out. And I feel the “bi” for me does something like that as well. It's not just talking about who I may be sexually attracted to, or who I may want to get in bed or wherever, and the way it relates with people and the way I present and show up with different people of all genders. I'm very touchy-feely and so in that way, maybe also I'm like generally “bi,” without the sexual, because I really appreciate contact, physical contact, with anyone.

[00:07:45] Chris Angel Murphy: One of my longtime friends, Shane Whalley, was featured on the very first episode of the very first season of Allyship is a Verb, and ze recently posted on LinkedIn about being a fan of “belonging” over “inclusion.” Shane said that “I can be included and still not feel like I belong.” Ze said the following questions, there's three, are now gonna be in hir workshop moving forward, of which I'd like to ask you now.

Number one, how do you know if you belong in a space?

Number two, what lets you know that?

And number three, how does it feel in your body?

[00:08:29] Ed Carratalà: I feel like the answers are related to the questions, because how do you know and how do you feel like you belong is you feel like you belong or you feel like you don't belong, and that's valid no matter what is happening, no matter what you can potentially describe that is happening.

For me, there is a - I feel like more, like in here, in like the lower chest area, sort of like a high butterfly, high stomach, butterflies flap around one way or another, depending if you're feeling affirmed; the whole you is present. They flap around differently if you're feeling like you're putting away some parts of yourself. And I think that's maybe a significant part also, in the more descriptive what-it-is that you're feeling.

And what people can do: give mindful and deliberate space to newcomers. Because being a newcomer can be very difficult because it can be overwhelming, it can be very challenging to participate, which, once you participate, it becomes easier, or more available, that you feel like you belong. And I think that's something important.

[00:09:45] Chris Angel Murphy: You and I in our friendship, we've talked about our own internalized homophobia. When you went to Pride for the first time, you were scared to go in - spoiler alert - you finally did. But I'm wondering if you can tell us about that experience and if you felt the good or the not so good butterflies that you were just describing when you were going through that whole process.

[00:10:11] Ed Carratalà: I think I felt both butterflies.

At first I felt a shock because I went by public transport and I got off the train, in my head, I expected that I had this 20 minute walk before I reached where I was going, and it turned out that there was another pride event like, 30 seconds away from the train exit. So I got that shock and all of a sudden I felt this sort of rush of imposter syndrome, like, “I'm not allowed here. I'm not queer enough, I'm just pretending and I don't really belong. Everyone here has been in so many queer spaces and this is my first one, my first explicit one, showing up as queer or owning my queer identity.”

But then what I did was sort of walk quickly away, didn't fully run, but it was close to that [both laugh], to give myself some space, to give myself that time that I needed. And I reached the place that I was actually meeting more people, and it was a lot more empty and it gave me time to just walk around in circles, slowly dive in, allow myself that process; cause it did feel overwhelming at first.

And then I got to the positive butterflies, the ones that I was celebrating and sharing my story and sharing myself and showing up as myself and dancing and all of that.

[00:11:33] Chris Angel Murphy: This is a quick note to say that this conversation was recorded in December of 2022, so keep that in mind as you listen to this next part.

[00:11:43] Ed Carratalà: I came out to myself a couple years ago, two years ago. So the first pride month my kid was born, so my focus was completely with my kid. This year, I allowed myself and sort of also pushed myself, forced a little bit myself, to show up, to connect with community; which is very important to affirm oneself.

I came out to myself when I was already 33, so I had 33 years of experience of hiding parts of myself; even parts that I hid so well that I didn't know I was hiding. And at first I felt I had to hide my queer aspects. Not just identity, but like my queerer aspects or of movement sort of, where do I look? How do I interact with different genders?

At that moment, there was this sort of muscle memory kicking in, that I was doing something that I wasn't supposed to be doing - that mixed up with the imposter syndrome. Luckily, what I did was walk away and call one of my best friends, Christina. So just shared those thoughts and allowed to speak up about them.

[00:12:57] Chris Angel Murphy: Was that in Barcelona?

Ed Carratalà: Yes.

Chris Angel Murphy: Is it a big celebration there?

[00:13:01] Ed Carratalà: Barcelona has a big queer community. There's a whole neighborhood, uh, called the Gayshamble, which is very queer and very affirming and has a lot of queer spaces. But I wouldn't say like the Pride celebration, like June Pride celebration, in Barcelona is the biggest.

In Madrid, it's probably bigger; Madrid, the capital of Spain, it's probably bigger. But it was more, rather than a full pride event, it was more like a pride party. So it's a lot of fun and a parade also.

[00:13:37] Chris Angel Murphy: That's cool. Yeah, there's different kinds of pride, so that makes sense. Do you see yourself going to Pride again or trying to go to any Prides in particular?

[00:13:47] Ed Carratalà: Yes, I would love to go around the world to all the Prides [Chris Angel laughs].

[00:13:52] Chris Angel Murphy: You're gonna be very busy.

[00:13:54] Ed Carratalà: I know [laughs].

Chris Angel Murphy: There's a lot of them.

Ed Carratalà: I know. But yeah, definitely going again, uh, in Barcelona, since it's the closest to where I live. If I could, I would love to go to the, the next Sydney Pride, World Pride, which sounds really exciting.

I'd love to go to a Pride event in San Francisco, because I also feel very attached to the city. I used to live near there for a little bit, and yeah, just out of curiosity and excitement, I'd love to like feel present in as many Prides as possible.

[00:14:24] Chris Angel Murphy: I did that in my early twenties. It felt really important, cause I remember going to LA Pride, which is in West Hollywood. I went to Long Beach. I went to San Francisco. I think my favorite part about the San Francisco one was I had some cool friends I was very close to at that time, and we were all some sort of version of queer.

And I just remember us all driving up together and driving up from LA was just kind of funny because there were so many Subarus and cars with like HRC stickers and stuff, and we're like, “Gay, gay, gay.” [Ed laughs] Like, we knew everyone was like also coming up with us.

This is one of those moments that I don't know if what's being said is US-centric or not, but Subaru has a long history of being known as a lesbian, or broadly LGBTQ+, affirming car brand. The HRC stickers I've referenced are from the Human Rights Campaign.

It features a square sticker with a dark blue background and yellow equal sign. It's been a more discreet way of showing one's pride or showing allyship for the LGBTQ+ community.

Cool. Like we're all. Going to this big celebration together, and I mean, San Francisco can really be in your face with like the queerness, unapologetically.

I'll just leave it at that [both laugh].

[00:15:50] Ed Carratalà: I love that. I think that's what I'm looking for.

[00:15:54] Chris Angel Murphy: Yeah, well, and it was my first time being in San Francisco and I honestly don't even think I've been since, and this was around like, I want to say 2009 or so, but it was a really neat experience. I think there's something to be said for going to like the smaller parties, like the one you went to and then going to these, like, you know, you know people are traveling from all over to go to XYZ celebration, like somewhere like San Francisco. So I definitely recommend it for folks to go.

I'm kind of prided out [laughs]; I think the older I get happier I am like being with smaller groupings of people and everything. But I'm really excited for you.

Ed Carratalà: Me too.

Chris Angel Murphy: There's been some time since you went to that pride event. Is there anything that, like you remember, almost like a snapshot in your mind of just what you think about when you think about that experience again?

[00:16:48] Ed Carratalà: Yes. My brain is very image oriented and very soundtrack oriented. In this case, it's more about the image. It's a photo that I shared on Instagram that to me, it represents the way I felt present. I was alone waiting to meet up with a, a group of my people that I was meeting for the first time, and just sitting there in the sun breathing, looking around and showing colors. I was wearing rainbows and butterflies and [laughs], and all the colors.

That breath, I would say, not just the image; that breath, that moment of breathing and feeling present and feeling connected and looking around and smiling - telling myself that I do belong. Sort of responding to the imposter syndrome that I was feeling a few minutes before, sort of allowing myself to actually belong.

[00:17:39] Chris Angel Murphy: I'm glad you mentioned about the rainbows and everything. Like, you crack me up because [Ed laughs] every time we talk it's very colorful. I'll sneak a peek at whatever bracelets you have on, things like that. I know there's certain, like different kinds of queer shirts [Ed laughs] and things that you'll wear.

One of the things that cracked me up is - so when I, before I have a guest on I Google them, usually, to just see what's out there and if there's anything else I can ask about and things like that. And you know, the internet's just freaking weird. I, I'm gonna preface this just so you don't worry: nothing bad came up [Ed laughs], okay. And I guess there is this Etsy order that you had from earlier this year. That was these- ????

[00:18:24] Ed Carratalà: It's available on Google [Chris Angel laughs]?!

[00:18:29] Chris Angel Murphy: Your face! [laughs] I dunno why it came up. It's cause you left a review. It was these bi shorts and I was laughing my ass off last night [both laugh] because it was just like the bi flag and a gradient of shorts. I was like, “Ed, oh my god.” You like just everything. Everything gay [both laugh], everything bi pride.

Ed Carratalà: Yes.

Chris Angel Murphy: Like, the shorts were a surprise[laughs].

[00:18:55] Ed Carratalà: Definitely a yes-and.

[00:18:55] Chris Angel Murphy: It was five stars, so I'm, I'm glad that number one, you were happy with the product [laughs].

Ed Carratalà: I was.

Chris Angel Murphy: But like, why is it important for you to be visible and do you ever have times where you maybe regret having something on or feel like you need to hide it or anything like that.

[00:19:16] Ed Carratalà: It's important for me because I hid it so much for so long, that I think I'm allowing myself a few years of overdue color-showing.

[00:19:34] Chris Angel Murphy: [laughs] You're showing your true colors.

Ed Carratalà: Exactly [laughs].

Chris Angel Murphy: Oh my God, that's so cheesy [both laugh]. Oh God.

[00:19:38] Ed Carratalà: Of course, one aspect is I'm, I'm a sucker for merch. I'm an absolute sucker for merch. I'm showing your merch, by the way, which is amazing.

[00:19:47] Chris Angel Murphy: I know, it's really cute. Before we hopped on - cause you know I only record the audio - but we can see each other as we're doing these conversations and Ed and I are both wearing merch from the podcast [laughs] and I'll make sure to include a, a photo of the two of us being ridiculous later on.

But, yes, Ed is very proudly rocking.

Ed Carratalà: Yes.

Chris Angel Murphy: One of the shirts right now

Ed Carratalà: And it's so good.

Chris Angel Murphy: So we're wearing the same design too, which is hysterical [Ed laughs], we didn't plan that. I'm just wearing it too cause like, I don't know, it's just comfortable.

Ed Carratalà: It is, it really is.

Chris Angel Murphy: It's always nice to have like a super comfy hoodie.

Ed Carratalà: Mm-hmm.

Yeah, I didn't even get the shirts yet. I just got like a hoodie and a sweatshirt, so I still need to buy the shirts. But -

[00:20:28] Ed Carratalà: And also, as a therapist also, I've had a lot of experiences with clients that have come after suffering what I would say would be like a therapeutic violence from some remote therapist that, for example, have said some things in the lines of, “You're still figuring yourself out,” “You're still sexually immature if you're bi,” “If you're bi, it's because when you were little this and this happened and, and so you have to work through it to make up your mind.”

And I feel like also wearing the colors and also wearing my colors on my nails in therapy is a way of choosing to actively be more protective of queer clients, because safe spaces are not really that abundant. Trying to show up as a safe space, myself, is something very important because I didn't feel like I had that either. Not as a human being and not as a client when I went to therapy either.

So I feel like that is something very important for myself. So both in celebration and also in this idea of, I really want to speak up about being queer, about my identity, and really share; I'm out to everyone in my life. Not everyone is supportive, but I choose to fight through in that way, because if one person benefits from knowing that I'm queer, that I'm Bi, then it's all worth it.

Because, in my head, in my upbringing, the way I grew up with myself, it was either/or. Whenever I tried to figure out my identity and had queer experiences, the day after, “What are you, gay or straight?” And those absolute and limited two options. As a man, I did feel attraction to women, I responded that question, “you are straight, but.” “You are straight, plus.” “You are straight, but open-minded.” “You are straight, but when you drink, you get a little more touchy-feely with other people.”

To me, wearing the, wearing the colors, I love them - that's also a very simple answer - but it's also a way to connect with that word that is very overused, but at the same time, very accurate: the pride. When I first came out, it was weird because whenever I was talking about it with someone important to me, I would always say to them, “It feels very cliche, but it's really like the perfect word.” What I feel is pride. I'm very proud of talking about this, of showing up, wearing this.

[00:23:08] Chris Angel Murphy: Yeah, I think, I don't necessarily want to make it a goal for everyone because some people may just not get there, and I don't want to rush people that you have to get to this place or you have to be and feel empowered or, or anything like that. But I think it can be nice when you can tap into that energy, just because of the messaging we can get from the rest of the world.

[00:23:30] Ed Carratalà: Mm-hmm. Whenever I'm trying to help someone, whether it be as a therapist or anyone comes to me for queer conversations, in the coming out idea I always say like, you don't owe information to anyone, but you don't owe silence to yourself either, cause you're not doing anything wrong. You're not broken, you're not wrong, you're not something to be hidden away in the darkness.

Chris Angel Murphy: Right.

Ed Carratalà: So you don't owe information to anyone and whatever that means for everyone, for each person - but at the same time, it's like really important to work with how you're hiding different parts of yourself and how that's affecting you, and how that's taking a toll, both in a physical and in a mental way.

[00:24:18] Chris Angel Murphy: You mentioned about how you would sometimes get touchy-feely when you were drinking. And I know that sometimes people intentionally get, let's say, drunk or maybe high under the influence of something - insert drug here - and use it as a way to mask their sexuality or how they really feel, or gender things or, or whatever. Right?

And the thought is it maybe is more socially acceptable to make out with someone of the same gender. For instance, if you can fall back on drugs as an excuse, like, “Oh, I got so wasted. I don't remember what I did last night.” Even though you may remember very well, but again, it's just that cover.

Ed Carratalà: Mm-hmm.

Chris Angel Murphy: But there was a time in your life that you would go out and do something similar.

Ed Carratalà: Yes.

Chris Angel Murphy: Can you share more about that?

[00:25:03] Ed Carratalà: Definitely. It was definitely something that I did do, like, explicitly. I remember this guy; there was a friend of a friend. Whenever I knew that he was coming over there, he was going to be there, the first thing I’d do was go to the bar and grab not one, but two drinks. But looking back, every single time I did that, I went to the bar and grabbed two drinks, and the first one I would down in less than five minutes and just hold on to the other one probably for like 15, 20 minutes the most; so I could get to the excuse faster.

I've had some supportive friends that the day after would ask me, “Hey, what happened last night? Is there anything you want to talk about?” It's - and stuff like that. And my answer would be, “Bro, I was so drunk. And when I get drunk, you know me”.[both laugh]

[00:25:59] Chris Angel Murphy: Bro? [laughs] Oh, the masculinity. Okay, yeah.

[00:26:03] Ed Carratalà: So that did happen. I definitely did do that. I would say explicitly for like four, five years of my life where I did get to experience, I did get to definitely hook up with a lot of guys, or not women, non-women people, and also explore more physical aspects.

But at some point I was at this one party that this guy was there, of course, and my head was hurting, so I asked around for a pill. I always thought that that pill was something else, was not ibuprofen or anything like that. But now, maybe it could be that it was a ibuprofen and I just used the excuse because it was an opportunity. And that night I hooked up with, I don't know, I lost count with how many people I hooked up with and went to bed with, also different people that night, which was not something that I usually did.

So yeah, using the excuse was definitely the way that I did explore. Although I didn't allow the word for myself, because again, it was either/or.

[00:27:04] Chris Angel Murphy: How did you feel afterward when you had processed it later?

[00:27:08] Ed Carratalà: Scared. It was very scary. Some feelings I didn't really understand because I didn't have the vocabulary for them, or didn't allow myself to explore the vocabulary for them, and also scared that I was gonna be put in a box that didn't feel right for me.

I would always sort of fall back to this thought that when in doubt, I do feel attraction to women, so therefore it's that I'm just open-minded. And whenever I would cross some lines beyond like pecking and on the lips with someone, or maybe even making out a little bit, I would cross some lines further than that - the next day would sometimes feel very overwhelming.

“What does this mean? Why did he do this?” Since I also studied psychology, I would fall back to sort of traditional narratives that go to that therapeutic violence that I was referring to before. Sort of, “What didn't you resolve that you needed to do this last night?” Started thinking more in the lines of not something to embrace, but something to correct and yeah, it took a while.

[00:28:14] Chris Angel Murphy: For the masculinity piece, you've had quite a journey with that, because you've told me you've always been touchy feely with friends. You love bear hugs; you like to breathe in the middle of a hug.

I'm just excited for our first hug when we finally get to meet in person [laughs].

[00:28:31] Ed Carratalà: It'll be like a five or 10 minute hug, just so you know [laughs].

[00:28:35] Chris Angel Murphy: Oh my god. Yeah. We'll just, like, be walking five steps and then all of a sudden wait, we need another hug. We're just, we have a lot of catching up to do on the hugs department.

Ed Carratalà: Mm-hmm.

Chris Angel Murphy: But can you help explain like how your relationship to masculinity has evolved over the years and where you're at with it currently.

[00:28:56] Ed Carratalà: So I think that's also a journey for me because I think masculinity, not in the traditional way that for a lot of people is like, you have to like sports and stuff like that, and you have to be like a very macho, I didn't really align with that. I was comfortable with getting myself away from that image of masculinity. I've always been proud of how when I was little I would play with little kitchens and I had my kitchen toys and stuff like that; didn't really follow sports.

And I was comfortable with that, but there were some things that I had to like over present. For example, the colors that I wear, the sort of neutrality, the masculine neutrality of what I would wear. Like, there has to be some sort of blue mixed in between, dark blue to not be too bright; but that was present.

And also caring too much about the way that I looked was something that I couldn't do, I didn't allow myself to do. So I had to look a little, not taken care of, in a way; so more loose clothes or maybe not so well-matched, because if I match too much, something's going to be fishy.

[00:30:12] Chris Angel Murphy: You mean like someone might clock you as gay or something?

[00:30:14] Ed Carratalà: Yes. Actually, this one time I even used for a while - an example: I went out to a gay club with a gay friend and his friends, in Madrid cause I couldn't do that in Barcelona of course, it was too close to home. One of his friends looked at me and said, “With those shoes, you're clearly not gay.” Which was a joke, because I was wearing sneakers probably to go into a bar until I go into a club or something.

But I held on to that as in way, okay, whenever I question myself next time I can quote this person that sort of ticked me off, “No, no, you're not gay, so we're good.” And I would actually quote him whenever, cause a lot of people have asked me. My partner, actually when - before we started dating - with some friends that were in the area, so they told her, “You're gonna figure out if it's gay or not.” Because one night we, it was pretty obvious that we were gonna hook up and they told her, “Tomorrow you have to tell us if he's gay or not, because if he doesn't hook up with you, he's gay and we resolve the question.” So, yeah.

Chris Angel Murphy: Yikes. That's a lot.

Ed Carratalà: I was comfortable with that. Since I came to terms - and I'm saying I was comfortable with that in a negative way - since I came to terms with, I was straight – but, I was straight but open-minded, I was straight but curious, and stuff like that. I was comfortable with playing with, I don't know if that makes sense, pretending to be gay.

Because at the same time it gave me the opportunity: if I was pretending I could cross the line. Of course I needed to have a couple drinks to allow myself to pretend, but nevertheless, I was comfortable with the suspicion, because then I would answer. I don't know if that makes a lot of sense, but yeah.

[00:31:59] Chris Angel Murphy: What I'm processing too is that, sometimes we'll engage in certain behaviors, that doesn't necessarily mean someone's gay, right? Like I just, I think in, you know, in research we've said or came up with MSM or “men who have sex with men,” because sometimes there's certain populations we're trying to reach for, let's say, research on HIV, or prep, or something like that. And although the person doesn't claim to be gay or bisexual or queer, they're still like engaging in a certain behavior.

So anyway, I'm taking this all on this side journey just to say like, just because someone does something, it doesn't mean that's like who they are. And it's so interesting, like how binary that was, “If Ed sleeps with her, then it's clear, like - not gay.” It's just so interesting how we'll do that to people.

[00:32:53] Ed Carratalà: A lot of people did like have that very specific binary question. Like here in Spain, I still, to this day don't know which is the answer that would correspond for something, but there's the question: what do you like, Meat or fish? I don't know which one is supposed to be which. I had that question from a friend, back when I was 17, I think, something like that. And I remember that I panicked and I said, “I don't care about meat or fish; I like women.” [laughs] Just in case I gave the wrong answer.

Chris Angel Murphy: Right.

Ed Carratalà: I was very quick and nervous too - what are you talking about? And yeah, it was that very binary idea, which I feel like is like socially comfortable, because if you can binarize - I don't know if that's a word, we'll accept it if not [Chris Angel laughs]- but if you can sort of limit to those two options, you can, back to what you were saying before, you can then choose who is allowed to belong or not. Who is allowed into what spaces or not and who is, has to be otherized or who can be included, whatever that may be.

[00:34:00] Chris Angel Murphy: Yeah, and I think your experiences, you've shared, echo what I've heard from other people as well as far as like either you have to pick one or - just sort of watching you like a hawk to try to like build up this profile or case for whether or not you might be gay or what, and it's just a lot of effort. But I also hear that there were also friends who sounded like they were very supportive.

Ed Carratalà: Mm-hmm.

Chris Angel Murphy: Thinking about the people you had hooked up with and slept with and, and all of that, have you connected with any of them again or run into any of them again since you've been sharing more about who you are outwardly?

[00:34:38] Ed Carratalà: Not really. There's this one that is, on my list that I do want to reconnect with, cause he was my best friend when we were 16 and the relationship already was like very intimate. With him, he, he didn't let me kiss him. One day we would go out to clubs and we would stay in the parking lot for like seven or eight hours just hanging out. Looking back, I know that that was a lot more than friendship or, or, a lot different - not just more or less. And I think it was for both of us, because one night I did ask him, so why won't you kiss me? Um, just the game. And I remember us talking like we had this very explicit conversation where, okay, there is definitely something other going on here.

Chris Angel Murphy: I hope you're able to find out.

Ed Carratalà: I know how to contact them. I just have to do it [laughs]. But yeah.

[00:35:34] Chris Angel Murphy: Thinking about how you said, earlier, that everyone in your life now knows how you identify. Like, let's say you were sharing with me right now like, “Hey, Chris Angel, I'm bisexual." What's your like ideal way that someone would respond to that?

[00:35:55] Ed Carratalà: Focused on me. When I shared with my brother, my older brother, he responded, “I never thought of you like that, but now that you'd say it, it makes all the sense in the world, because you have like a very open heart and you're very open, and I feel like you could potentially love anyone no matter who they are or what they look like.”

And in the more negative way - for a long, long time, since I'm in a relationship and the long term relationship, we've been almost together for nine years now - most, if not all, if not everyone that I came out to, very quickly asked, “How's your partner? How is she taking it?”

Chris Angel Murphy: Mm.

Ed Carratalà: As someone that focuses on taking care of people, both professionally and personally, I understand it makes all the sense in the world that people would ask that. But at the same time, it felt very triggering to think of my identity as a problem; who I am, is harming my partner. And it took me a while to formulate this idea of: whenever this happens, I feel terrible, I feel bad.

And it's biphobic. And because it's assuming that my identity is a problem. It's assuming that I'm bisexual and therefore I want to fuck everyone - I could [both laugh]- but doesn't necessarily mean that.

I think something very affirming would be like curious question. Not interrogations, but curious questions - and how can you continue the conversation? What does it mean for you? I want to learn what this means for you. How do you want to do something about it? And can I help you do something about it?

[00:37:34] Chris Angel Murphy: Do you wish that, like any of the people you had shared this with, did you tell them before or after Pride?

Ed Carratalà: Before.

Chris Angel Murphy: Did you wish that any of them had gone with you or was it important for you to go by yourself?

[00:37:45] Ed Carratalà: I think the first one, it was important for me to go by myself because I did want to give myself that space, but I didn't really meet it. Being available through a phone call was enough, but I definitely want to share it in the future.

[00:37:59] Chris Angel Murphy: The people that you met with, do you still talk to them today?

[00:38:02] Ed Carratalà: Yeah, it's a bisexual group and not very regularly, but we do meet up every now and then. And it's great because being affirmed, being in a context where you belong, and you don't really need to explain yourself; you can talk about yourself, but you don't need to explain yourself.

I say it in this way: that we talk about, I don't know, beers or dogs or weather being bi, and we all know we're bi or queer, and it's there. It's not necessarily about being bi, but we know it's there and yeah.

[00:38:40] Chris Angel Murphy: I'm not going to lie, I'm a little sad you're not wearing the bisexual shorts [both laugh].

[00:38:45] Ed Carratalà: I know [laughs]. I was gonna wear them, but they're in the, in the laundry basket.

[00:38:50] Chris Angel Murphy: I, I see you rocking it. I just wish you'd get some like sponsorships or something so you can get all this for free.

Ed Carratalà: That’d be cool.

Chris Angel Murphy: You're also a professor. And even more recently, you taught your own students about the LGBTQ+ community, but you had to do it in secret.

Ed Carratalà: [laughs]Yes.

Chris Angel Murphy: Because, I imagine, you know, part of it is the heavy influence of Catholicism in Spain and the institution that you work at and everything. So, I'm wondering if you could just share more about that experience, like why it was important for you to do that, and why you felt like you had to do it in secrecy.

[00:39:31] Ed Carratalà: I felt it was important to do that because there is nothing like that here. There are some affirmative trainings that could potentially be available, but there's no structure, there's really nothing that you can fall back to and feel comfortable that it's a good training. You're probably gonna do better by reading some good books, or listening to good podcasts and having good conversations with queer people, than actually going into one of those.

So I teach in a family therapy master's program and it started that I made an effort to fall back to more queer examples and talk about, like, the systemic issues and - or systemic theory, and how I linked that to queer experiences and queer families and queer relationships and so on - to at least activate the conversation. And there was a lot of interest and people asked me, “Oh, how do you know about this? And do you work with quick clients?”

What I did then was see if it would be interesting to a group of enough people, which automatically I saw that it was, and so then I did the regular process of talking to the people that I had to talk to, to make it something available, to show it, to let people know that that was going to happen.

What was curious is that individually speaking, one-to-one with the people that I had to talk to, it was very easy and they were trying their best to be affirming and open and willing to, but very quickly said things like, “But I hope you don't want to make a revolution here in the institution. This doesn't have to be a crusade. You can talk about this-”

For example, we distribute ourselves with research groups. Whenever we do something, and training-wise or research-wise, that is related to a particular subject, it has to make sense with the research group that specializes in that. So the research group in our university that focuses on identity, is very much explicitly told as religious identities and perceive general queerness or shifts from cis straight ideas and identities, perceives those, still, as mental health issues.

And if they talk about trans; they try and talk about trans identities in a respectful way. So they are allowed to be trans, but it's because this and this and this happened; they are allowed to be gay, but they shouldn't be allowed to get married, blah, blah, blah, because marriage is an institution, blah, blah, blah.

And so what I had to do in order to make it available was to offer it for free, offer it in silence. Only the director of the Master's program knew about it and so we had to sort of hide it away as if it were a, an extra class from the Masters in Family Therapy and I couldn't like show it off. I ended up having to do it on a Saturday in July when there's no one in the university. It was so much that there was no one in the university that the guard even closed the door and people got left out. So people that were coming got left out, so.

Luckily enough has moved, for now, that it is going further steps. We're looking into making it something more regular, within the program. Because there is a need for it, and I think it's also very difficult to not respect it, in a way that is not explicitly homophobic or transphobic or biphobic or queerphobic.

[00:43:12] Chris Angel Murphy: I remember when you were telling me about that day, you were just so happy. It sounded like it just went on forever and everyone was like, perfectly fine with that cause y'all just went down the rabbit hole.

[00:43:21] Ed Carratalà: Yeah. In my head I prepared for a two hour speech [Chris Angel laughs] and I think we were there for like six hours. And five hours in we said like, “Oh, like people are waiting for us for lunch.” [both laugh]

[00:43:35] Chris Angel Murphy: Yeah. What would you say to a therapist who thinks they may be part of the community.

[00:43:40] Ed Carratalà: In an ideal world, for me, we would all be under the Q, as in questioning, part of the queer community. That allows for a lot of freedom for oneself, but also as a therapist, I think in an ideal world, again, all therapists should be in that questioning state. Because it allows also for a very much more connected relationship with their clients.

Because it's that state of, I don't know everything, which therapists aren't really allowed to be, because they have to have answers for everything and they have to have read everything and know everything about everything.

But I, as a therapist, embrace a lot of what I don't know. And they talk- some clients talk about something and I'm like, “Oh, I have no idea what you're talking about. Can you tell me more about this?” For example, culturally speaking, I don't know all the cultures. I may have read something, I may have seen something, but I don't know the intricacies of a specific culture and therefore I am learning from you whenever you talk about your culture - and even if it's the same one that I was brought up in - because the way you relate to the culture is different than the way that I did relate to it.

What I would say to those classic examples of questioning or ally, too, queer therapists is that if -it can be scary to allow yourself to explore whatever you're feeling, and not to be too cliché, but it does get better once you allow yourself to explore. Once you allow your vocabulary, read about it, listen to podcasts, consume content, mindful content, look into what resonates with you. And at the same time, you don't have to be queer. And that's something that I, I think culturally is not too accepted either, but you don't have to be queer to be queer-supportive.

And so allowing yourself to explore that, does give that freedom that you can come out of exploring with, “Okay, I've explored what that means for me, and I'm still straight.” Work on yourself the same way you're trying to work with your clients. So allow yourself to explore, allow yourself to embrace whatever questions are coming up. And therefore you can also be a more full self, you can fully present as a therapist better with those queer clients.

[00:46:10] Chris Angel Murphy: I love what you said around that. I mean, very clearly you love podcasts, so like that definitely came through [laughs], but I love what you said about people doing the work of questioning their own identities, because I think there's been folks who want to practice allyship, or they wanna learn more about a community; be it the queer community or, and any of the subgroupings or any other community.

And yeah, for me, I think it comes back to being able to do that work yourself. Because even for like, let's say a parent or a family, a guardian, a caretaker, caregiver, et cetera, coming to terms with their young one being trans or, or again, insert identity here, like you don't have to understand them in order to love and support them.

And it can also be very helpful in your journey together to examine, like you said, like, “Why do I think I'm a woman? Well, what does a woman like? What does that mean to me?” And like, you know, just going down that rabbit hole and allowing yourself to have those thoughts. It doesn't mean that you have to come to the conclusion that you're a different gender or something;

I mean, maybe you might, or you know, may find an extension there.

And you'll also just be able to more clearly articulate your own thoughts around your own gender and, like, I think that's pretty cool. So I don't know. I'm also team questioning and like to think that I'm in a constant state of questioning who I am, because even in the course of doing this podcast, my identities have shifted and I've just - maybe not shifted, but like the language I choose - or I have learned new things about myself and I, I don't know, it doesn't make me a fraud or anything from before. It just - Yeah, we're, I don't know, I like being open to learning more about myself all the time, so I love that.

[00:48:10] Ed Carratalà: And we are constantly changing and they're - beyond the queer umbrella identities - there are things that we used to like that we don't like anymore, or things that we didn't used to like and we do like now. And our experiences transform and evolve in so many aspects, in so many ways, that it, it also makes sense that they do transform.

And also with our attractions, also what we do with our hair - like that's something that transforms and changes over the course of our lives in, in many ways. The way that we dress, the way that we talk, the way that - so many things, of course, sexuality and gender identity and all of it is also something that can potentially evolve throughout a lifetime.

[00:49:01] Chris Angel Murphy: Yeah, and I wonder if some people are afraid of asking those questions, because like maybe the work that might be ahead of them in that process. And that's also fair and valid; because you and I, we're similar in age and we've had some of the same resources to help us out, you know, if even they came in later.

But, I think about, you know, my, my dad and my grandma are no longer here, but my dad's generation, like you didn't want to be called queer.

Ed Carratalà: Mm-hmm.

Chris Angel Murphy: That's just not something you wanted to be called. Or if I think about my grandma's generation, I mean, god, the kind of sex-ed they even had then versus now- which even now, that's like still a hot button issue and not everyone's getting fact-based, inclusive, et cetera sex-ed.

Ed Carratalà: Mm-hmm.

Chris Angel Murphy: But yeah, they just didn't have the same tools as me, and I think- I wonder what kinds of questions they would've had for themselves if they could have had those safer spaces, if they could've had that language, you know, for all the things that my grandma used to yell at me about, like, that's not very ladylike, you know, how many things she actually even liked herself about being a quote unquote “lady.”

Ed Carratalà: Mm-hmm.

Chris Angel Murphy: And like what that entailed or if there's parts that she could have done without. Anyway, all that to say: what's your favorite part of being bi?

[00:50:24] Ed Carratalà: This breath [deep inhalation] just being. So before I came out to myself, a few years before coming out, I had this itch on my skin. Finally, I decided to consult a doctor and they said that I had a skin cold. Which was something that I hadn't heard before and haven't heard again after, but sort of a skin flu or something like that. And it would go away- they'd eventually go away, but the itch didn't .

When I came out as bi to myself, not more than two weeks after, my skin wasn't itching anymore. It today itches like a normal person. I'm not saying it's a very linear and if a then b sequence, because the world is not that simple. But it's definitely something that I wasn't comfortable in my own skin, literally apparently, that I wanted to scratch it off and I wasn't fully myself and I was hiding something.

The best thing of being bi, for me, is just being true to myself. It's, it's not that being bi is the best -which it is – but – [both laugh]

[00:51:37] Chris Angel Murphy: Okay. Alright. You're trying to get into a battle with me. No, that's cool.

[00:51:41] Ed Carratalà: But feels great to own what you are and what you align with. And, and that shows up in so many ways after that. Like I'm – there, I felt a shift in many areas of my life and the way I show up as a therapist, and the way I show up as a partner, as a friend.

My sex life has even changed after that with my partner. Not that it was bad before, but it, it's gotten so much better in so many ways, for both of us. We've talked about it, how it feels like a coincidence. But it, it's definitely not because it, it's not really related in any way because it's not - there's no bi thing going on there. But I guess I wasn't fully showing up as myself anywhere, so therefore, in my sex life was one of the “wheres.”

[00:52:31] Chris Angel Murphy: What's one allyship tip you'd like for everyone listening to consider?

[00:52:34] Ed Carratalà: Be proud of the mistakes because they can become teachable moments. Not be proud in the sense of embrace them and become more of that. Whenever someone tells you that something that you said, something that you did, was queer phobic in any way: it takes a lot of effort for that person to share that. And sometimes it may come out as aggressive, because the experience can be very aggressive to receive that queerphobia towards oneself.

It can be very scary and it can be very triggering. If there is a moment that you identify, or that someone shares with you that you are being homophobic, transphobic, biphobic, queerphobic; in any way, misogynist, racist, ableist, anything - it's a beautiful opportunity to work through that and not to confirm yourself as that part that is coming out, but to give yourself the chance to transform it. To interrupt that thought, interrupt that action, and allow for the alternative, and maybe have questions, how would that be different? This is what's going on for me, how can you help me transform that? If you want to help me beyond letting me know that it was this.

And I think that's something that, at least for me, working on myself, it was very important to look back and, and see those moments. And having conversations with significant people whenever we've been able to embrace how an interaction, or how a comment, how an action is feeling in whatever way queerphobic, it's been incredibly useful afterwards.

[00:54:19] Chris Angel Murphy: Cool. You took me on a journey there. I was like, “Where are you going with this, Ed?” [Ed laughs] Where are you going?

Ed Carratalà: Danger. Danger!

Chris Angel Murphy: How- How am I gonna write that one? Yeah.

Ed! What can I say? I adore you. Thank you for becoming someone so important in my life and for reaching out on Instagram with all of your kind words. Additionally, thank you for all of your vulnerability and for paving the way for your students in Spain.

I'd like to take a moment to thank all of you who have been buying Allyship is a Verb merch. Quick shout out to folks like Ed, Pam, Meredith, Rebecca, Sam, Ginia, Noel, Danielle, Bridget, Vanessa, Kaitlyn, and everyone else who's also helped to narrow down to the final two designs. If you haven't grabbed the merch yet, it'll be linked in the show notes and on the website. You can either get the physical merch or there's also stickers.

And now, the last three self-reflection questions.

4. What messages have I received about the bisexual community? Where did those messages come from?

5. When's the last time I checked in on someone I know who was hurting?

6. Has anyone recently given me feedback about how I show up? Are there any mistakes I could work on?

Visit AllyshipIsAVerb.com for any resources and a full transcript of the episode. And remember, sometimes allyship means being proud of your mistakes because they can become teachable moments.