[00:17] Chris Angel Murphy
Well, hello there. My name is Chris Angel and my pronouns are they/them. Welcome to Allyship is a Verb, the LGBTQ+ podcast that explores and humanizes practicing allyship for the LGBTQ+ community and beyond!

[00:37] Josée Sovinsky
Hello, hello! I am Josée and my pronouns are she/they.

[00:43] Chris Angel Murphy
How freaking cute is it that her name and pronouns rhyme?! Also, I just think they're a super freaking cute human [laughs]. So there's that. If you've been with me since the first season, you may remember that we met Josée before on the fourth guest interview and now they're here again, for this season's fourth episode [laughs]. It just felt right to do it that way, so glad that all worked out.

[01:11] Chris Angel Murphy
That said, this is an update episode. So it will be missing self reflection questions and an allyship tip. Instead, we're going to focus on any changes since the last time. So if you want to go listen to that episode first, please do. And if you like this format, and you would like to hear from anyone else who has already been on just to see what they're up to now, if there's been any changes, anything else you'd like them to dive into- assuming that they're also okay with it- please reach out and let me know.

[01:37] Chris Angel Murphy
I want to make sure that we have a balance of amplifying new voices and experiences, especially [ones] that we haven't heard from yet on the podcast. However, it's also good to remind folks that being a human is a very fluid process. We're encouraged to continuously question who we are especially related to identity and values.

[01:55] Chris Angel Murphy
For those of you not familiar with Josée, she is a registered psychotherapist, no longer qualifying, and registered dietitian based in Canada. They co-founded Blossom Counselling Centre, which provides psychotherapy, nutrition counseling, workshops and presentations. I actually just went to one and it's now available on YouTube. They were brilliant and I learned a great deal. It's called, "Neurodiversity and Eating Disorders: Considerations for Affirming Care." So if that piques your interest, I'll be sure to leave a link on the episode page, like I usually do.

[02:34] Chris Angel Murphy
And the only other thing I wanted to acknowledge is that we've become quite close friends since that last episode. I think you're going to hear a bit of that in our conversation- and just what a lovely human- so I'm really glad that we get to see what she's been up to since the last time she was here. And now here's my conversation with Josée.

[02:57] Josée Sovinsky
There might be some weirdness happening, but that's okay.

[03:00] Chris Angel Murphy
That's how we like it.

[03:01] Josée Sovinsky
[Laughs] Correct!

[03:03] Chris Angel Murphy
We're gonna introduce everyone to our weirdness.

[03:06] Josée Sovinsky
Yes. We're gonna what? Unmask? Beautiful! I'm into it. [both laugh]

[03:12] Chris Angel Murphy
Yes, last time you were a guest you shared that you're French Canadian and a bisexual queer with she/her pronouns. Today, you are bi, genderqueer, an ADHDer, and neurodivergent, with she/they pronouns. You're still French Canadian [laughs], obviously, but a lot has changed in the past year. I would love to explore what led to these updates, starting with the genderqueer situation. How and when did you start questioning your gender and how did you land on genderqueer?

[03:50] Josée Sovinsky
As soon as I [sighs] I feel like as soon as I landed on bisexual and queer and like, felt really comfy in that identity, or those identities, I started immersing myself a lot more in- in queer and trans community. I think one thing kind of led to another, connecting with a lot of folks who were- you know- who had like gender expansive identities and who were perhaps questioning their own genders. I think that really gave me permission to do the same with myself and I just allowed myself to get curious, right? I didn't really know where my line of questioning was going to bring me and I was okay with that. There was no distress around that or anything, it was really more- something that felt pretty exciting- you know. Being able to stop and actually question like, "Am I a cis woman?" Right, like, does that actually feel correct and accurate to my experience? So yeah, it's hard to pinpoint the exact moment but it's been a really lovely journey, and it has felt very validating. So, I'm glad I allowed myself to go there.

[05:01] Chris Angel Murphy
Bisexuality and queerness was like the gateway to you just getting even more immersed in the community. [both laugh]

[05:07] Josée Sovinsky
Yes.

[05:08] Chris Angel Murphy
Yeah. So that's not actually how it works. It's not like a gateway drug or something [Josée laughs]. So, I really love how you described your gender to people.

[05:18] Josée Sovinsky
Yeah, this is still something that I am figuring out. It's really difficult to explain an internal experience. The best way that I can describe it is that, you know, it's not that the idea of being a woman felt completely distressing, or that it felt like completely off from who I am- it's just that it felt incomplete. So it felt like it didn't really capture the richness of my gender experience, if that makes sense, or the layers in terms of my gender experience. In a way, right, genderqueer to me means that I am really queering my gender, right, I'm expanding my idea of what my gender is or what it can be.

[06:03] Josée Sovinsky
And so there's still aspects of being a woman or womanhood that do resonate with me, and I certainly don't feel a need to completely reject that identity. You know, if people refer to me, as a woman, I don't cringe, I don't feel discomfort, I don't feel distress around that. It just feels, yeah, incomplete. And then it's a little bit of also wanting to push back on the idea of what it means to be a woman in the first place. I think that's why I kind of sit between these two worlds, right, of of wanting to expand the definition of what it means to be a woman and wanting to push back on that- but also acknowledging that that's not where we're at. And so the genderqueer piece feels like it captures that nuance in terms of my own gender experience.

[06:50] Chris Angel Murphy
Because we've become pretty close friends, we've had a lot of interesting conversations, and part of when you disclosed to me about being genderqueer, something I'd asked you was: do you want womanhood to expand its definition or is there a part of you that you're happy to push back and adopt genderqueer as an expansion? Because like, for me, I love the idea of queering something. And that's also a lot of work. Sometimes I would like to just exist without it having to be like, an extra performance, etc. So yeah, I guess I'm curious how that feels for you.

[07:30] Josée Sovinsky
I think I go back and forth on that. There's something to be said about, yeah, allowing women to really expand what they see as being their gender, or like, what kinds of experiences can fit into "what is womanhood?" right, or "what it is to be a woman?" And at the same time, I think it's also okay for folks to want to step outside of that a little bit and say, "Actually, that's not quite it for me." Ultimately, [laughs] I mean, there's a part of me that just wants to, like, throw out genders completely right [laughs], because I'm just like- can we let go of this, this binary and really, just allow ourselves to think way more creat-tively, like creatively? Yes [both laugh] when it comes to gender. And at the same time, you know, I find a lot of meaning and a lot of validation in labeling my gender. So I think, you know, in true therapist fashion [both laugh], I'm gonna say that a lot of things can be true at once, and I hold, you know, all of these thoughts. And while they may seem conflicting, I think there's room for all of them and I don't have all the answers, and I'm trying to be okay with that.

[08:47] Chris Angel Murphy
Something that's tricky for me is seeing our definitions change so much over all the years. I think that's great and welcome, to a degree, because there is nuance that we haven't captured previously in definitions. I'm thinking mostly of the term "lesbian" right now: it's been expanded to include non-men. You know, not everyone's going to adopt that definition, but that's something I've also thought is- do we keep expanding? Yeah, at what point do we expand or decide we just need a new term. Because having had a lesbian card [both laugh] for several years in my early 20s, I don't know if I agree with including that "its attraction also to non-men," like, I'm not sure. Like you said, multiple things can be true. So part of me is like, "We need more words!" and another part of me is like, "And we can add more nuance to definitions." And I can also be tired of both of those things [both laugh].

[09:46] Chris Angel Murphy
I wonder if this is gonna lead us to a new- I want to say almost like revolution or something? Where we just completely reject labels, because we recognize that it's not always going to capture the wholeness or richness of us as people and we're going to use it as excuses sometimes to divide ourselves from other sub-groupings, etc. Like, I just I wonder if that's the next thing for our community is just saying, you know, some sort of, I don't know, almost like "queer", you know, like, just some sort of umbrella term to say, we're part of this community and we don't need to get into the specifics of it. Yeah, I guess I don't [laughs] really have a question for you, other than how does that land for you?

[10:31] Josée Sovinsky
Yeah, no, I hear you. I also sometimes [laughs] wish there were terms we could use to describe the community as a whole. And I think there are, you know, there are some folks who do prefer landing on a term that can mean a lot of things like "queer"- like "queer" can be interpreted in many, many ways. For some folks that does feel more affirming and I love that. Whereas for other people, I think having the the more specific terminology feels more affirming, right, they feel more seen when they're able to signal to the world like, "This is more specifically what my queerness looks like." And I think both are valid. But it is tricky, because even within the more specific labels, there's nuance, right? [laughs] And so I'm bisexual, not everyone is going to experience bisexuality in the same way, right? Or is even going to describe it in the same way. Like we know there exists many, many definitions of what it means to be bisexual, it might give people an idea of what my experience is, but ultimately, I still need to tell them, if I want to be getting specific. Language is so interesting, right? I think language really does influence how we see the world and I think it can be very important. And it can also feel limiting at times because it can be hard to capture the fullness of an experience with- with language.

[12:00] Chris Angel Murphy
Yeah, sometimes I wish I had a cheat sheet for my identities and that it would have like, Venn diagrams and arrows and whatever the hell it needs to, like, [both laugh] describe the richness of my experience. So then I can just be like, "here you go, here's a copy; this is where I'm at." And it'll be like, "Sometimes I'm this." "Under these certain circumstances, I'm this, too." And, you know, just yeah, it just feels like a lot. And I find myself- the longer and longer I'm in this work, when I come back to seemingly simple terms like "sex" or "gender," I find myself stumbling on my words because, again, it's just expanded so much. That's I guess why, I'm the awkward or awk-weird, person I am today [both laugh] is because I see multiple sides of it. So I feel like sometimes we need the labels so that we can find community, but then I just don't always want to be measured by how much of that I am or not, and if I'm being a "good one" or not.

[13:01] Josée Sovinsky
Absolutely, I think those identities do come with a certain level of expectations or stereotypes. And that exists within the community and outside of the community. Yeah, you would think that within the community, there would be more understanding- and that is sometimes the case, but not always. You know, I see so many conversations going around around like, being "queer enough," being "trans enough" or being "nonbinary enough," or, you know, [insert identity] enough. Because I think, yeah, when we start attaching so many expectations and stereotypes to these labels, then it can also be hard for people to find a home in those identities.

[13:45] Chris Angel Murphy
Which brings me to: what do you think it means to be a woman?

[13:50] Josée Sovinsky
Oh, that is a question [both laugh] that I don't know that I have an answer to. I mean, I think someone is a woman if they are a woman, it's an internal experience. I get kind of stuck on that question, right, or stuck on the question of like, what does it mean even to be genderqueer? Because it's not a specific checklist that I'm going through, right? And saying like, "Oh, well, it's because I meet these boxes." Partially why I hold on to "woman" as well right, as being part of my gender, there's a certain level of comfort and familiarity with that concept.

[14:29] Josée Sovinsky
But I know for a fact, for example, that if someone describes me, as a "man," like that, immediately, like, elicits a reaction in my body that is unfamiliar and that feels wrong. Whereas, you know, when I think of being genderqueer, there's like a relaxing that happens, right? There's this comfort, that is really, really lovely. That was essentially my process [laughs], or even terms of figuring out what this means for me is kind of "trying on," right, these different identities and seeing, "okay, does this feel like it fits, you know, the puzzle of my life?" [both laugh] Does it does the piece fit? And in my case, I feel like both genderqueer and woman fit in different ways. And they feel like they complete each other in a lot of ways. That might change over time and I'm, I'm allowing myself that uncertainty, right? I am trying to get comfortable in the fact that, how I see myself might change as- again, maybe as we get more language, right, to describe experiences- as I continue to learn more about myself, as I continue to, yeah, explore what this means for me. Maybe those words will eventually not feel as right and that's okay. But for now, it's it's definitely what feels like most affirming.

[15:54] Chris Angel Murphy
Would you still describe yourself as cisgender?

[15:54] Josée Sovinsky
This is a great question and one that I do not have an answer to [laughs]. Because in a lot of ways, I don't feel like I'm a cis woman, but I also don't feel like I'm trans, right? And so I feel like there's a limitation in terms of our language, right, when it comes to this piece, because it's very binary, right? It's like, "You are or you aren't." So that, that is something that I've been trying to like, wrap my head around and in the meantime, I'm just like not using either and that feels okay. I know that some people might actually feel pretty confused, with the idea that I am- those might feel like opposite things, right? And to me, they really don't feel like opposite things, like they make so much sense [laughs], but it's a hard thing to describe. And we live in a world of binaries and so I can understand how people might have questions around that, right, or feel confused about that. So I don't know, I'm still kind of figuring out where I land, where- when it comes to like cis versus trans because that, again, feels very binary.

[17:03] Josée Sovinsky
Yes. It's very interesting how playing around with these different pieces can feel very affirming from a gender perspective and at the same time, there's a part of me that questions, "Why is this affirming?" Right, in the sense that- is it because my mind is still attaching gender to certain gender expressions? Right, and I'm always trying to be mindful of breaking that down, right, and trying to push back on that. Yes, this is- this is me, always overthinking situations. [both laugh]

[17:37] Chris Angel Murphy
Me too. That should be my gender and sexuality; is just overthinking.

[17:42] Josée Sovinsky
Yeah. Yes, this I- yeah, I resonate. I think a way of putting it is that discovering, or coming to the understanding that I'm genderqueer, has then given me permission to explore my gender expression, right? So I still see those things as separate. Had I changed nothing in my gender expression, I would still be genderqueer. That feels very true. And at the same time, it did feel like an opportunity to push back on my gender expression, right, like what people expect me to look like based on my gender.

[18:23] Josée Sovinsky
I've definitely found that I'm more interested in, like, exploring clothing. For example, and fashion, I'm more curious, or I'm more aware of how wearing certain things makes me feel. I'm not someone who's ever been super interested in fashion as a whole. It's kind of, you know, I've enjoyed like shopping for clothes or things like that once in a while, but it's never been a passion of mine and in a lot of cases, it's felt like wearing clothes is more of a necessity than anything else, [laughs] right? Like, it's not something that I ever really use to express myself, if that makes sense. But I found a little bit more interest in doing that. So how do I feel in this, right? Like, how- does it feel like what I'm wearing is reflecting how I'm feeling internally, right, or how I see myself internally?

[19:16] Josée Sovinsky
And that's been really cool. It's been really cool to see that. I've actually noticed that my style and the things that I- I'm kind of leaning toward has shifted a little bit. That's been cool; I've been really enjoying that. My hair is another piece. So I- as you know [Chris Angel laughs]- about a month ago, maybe got a haircut and I was like, "Oh my goodness, this is so gender euphoric." And again, I couldn't necessarily put words on like why that is, it just like, felt- it felt really good, right? Like when I would look at myself in the mirror, it felt very aligned with how I see myself.

[19:49] Chris Angel Murphy
I met you because, again, you came out as bisexual on your professional Instagram page, and that was in late June 2021. So again, almost a year later, you came out again on the same Instagram page as genderqueer. Can you remind us of what happened last time and share what was different about this time, if anything? Both for how and what you shared as well as reactions.

[20:15] Josée Sovinsky
Yeah, so the first time around, I created a reel where I was essentially dancing to [sings] "I'm Coming Out" [Chris Angel laughs] and shared that I was bisexual. And I had kind of hesitated to share that because it is a professional Instagram page, but in the end, it felt like an important piece of myself to share with the world, to share with any like, future potential clients, right? Like, it felt like an important piece of who I am. And generally, the reactions were quite positive. I received a lot of messages from people and like a lot of private messages of people saying like, "Hey, I'm also bi, like, it was really validating to see this." A lot of folks shared that they're also bi, but for whatever reason, you know, aren't safe to come out. And so there were a lot of really, really lovely conversations that I had with people.

[21:13] Josée Sovinsky
However, in the process, I ended up losing quite a bit of followers, which I wasn't expecting to happen. Because I had felt, like, I had been quite clear around my allyship, you know, when it came to LGBTQ+ communities and so I wasn't really expecting folks to, yeah, to leave when they found out that I was part of the community. That piece felt a little weird to me. But generally, I would say like the- the actual messages and things that I received were overwhelmingly positive and I feel quite, quite, happy with how that went.

[21:52] Josée Sovinsky
And then this time around, [laughs] I'm sharing that I'm genderqueer, did another reel- I don't know what it is about coming out through reels that seems to be how I want to do it, I don't know [laughs]- shared that I'm genderqueer. And again, the responses were overwhelmingly positive. I don't actually think I lost any followers this time around. So maybe, again, I had kind of like, you know, filtered the audience to really capture the- the folks who were going to be supportive anyways. And so that was- that was quite good. But yeah, overall, it's, I think it's always a mixture of feeling nervous and feeling excited to share a new piece of myself with the world. I'm really glad that I did it. But yeah, it comes with a lot of vulnerabilities. So it can definitely be a tad terrifying, like the moment I press, you know, "share" or "post" or whatever it says, there's a little part of me that's like, "raaah", like anticipating the worst, you know? I'm very grateful that- that that didn't happen and I do, I do want to name the privilege that comes with having had that experience, because I know that for a lot of folks, that could have gone very differently, so.

[23:10] Chris Angel Murphy
I don't necessarily want to manifest this or hold you to this, but I'll be super curious to see if you drop another cute reel in a year, like [Josée laughs], "Now, I'm coming out as- [insert identity here.]"

[23:23] Josée Sovinsky
Yes, every June [Chris Angel laughs], you know, in honor of pride, I will come out with a new identity. [laughs]

[23:29] Chris Angel Murphy
Yeah, you're not dropping a new song, or an album, or a book, or anything; it's like "new identity, fresh off the press."

[23:35] Josée Sovinsky
Mm-hmm.

[23:36] Chris Angel Murphy
Love it. Something that you came to me with privately was wanting to explore she/they pronouns. And then after kind of releasing a small batch of that into the world [Josée laughs], with some people I imagine that you felt close to, you ultimately then decided, "Okay, this is how I'm moving forward, I want she/they pronouns." I'm curious about how both of those sets honor you and what went into- especially for folks who are maybe thinking about changing their pronouns- like how did you come to pick the people you did, to do like the beta testing, if you will?

[24:17] Josée Sovinsky
I wanted to try it on to see how it felt. And, I tried to think of, you know, who are the people in my life that- one, like I talked to pretty regularly, right? So they would have opportunities to, to use it- but also, who are the people that I feel safe with and that I can trust, right? Who will take it seriously and will put some effort into it, right? And so I would say those were kind of the big- the bigger components. And it was an experience that was filled with joy and you know, I think that made it very clear to me that, like, this felt very affirming and I felt very seen.

[25:00] Josée Sovinsky
But yeah, I was really impressed by how creative you were [both laugh] and how the other people in my life were, in terms of finding, like, every possible opportunity to especially use they/them pronouns, because of course, you know, the she/her pronouns were familiar to me. But yeah, finding those opportunities to use they/them pronouns, because it's hard, right? I think what folks don't always realize is that, you don't usually hear people use your pronouns when you're one-on-one with them, right? Because usually, it's just you and I, right, like you're using first and second person pronouns, I guess. So, it's very rare that you'll actually use someone's gender affirming pronouns in their presence, unless you're like recounting a story or sharing your thought process, or, you know, there's these unique experiences where it happens. But it's kind of rare, unless you're in a group setting, right? If you're in a group setting, then someone might refer to you within the group. So I did ask my work colleagues, for example, to use she/they pronouns because I thought, "Well, it's a group of us, [laughs] so they might have more opportunities to actually practice it, and I can then see how it feels." But yeah, that's kind of how I landed on that.

[26:16] Chris Angel Murphy
You want people to alternate between the two. I guess, how do you feel when someone uses she/her and then how do you feel when someone uses they/them? I don't want to make assumptions that she/her explicitly honors the womanness of you, you know, a percentage [laughs] roughly of you, that's, you know, [Josée laughs] claiming "woman," and then they/them inherently will, you know, fill in the genderqueer quota. But yeah, I guess how do those honor you?

[26:46] Josée Sovinsky
Like, both sets feel right and so when folks alternate using she/her and they/them pronouns, just feel really seen, right? I feel like that person really respects me and sees me for who I am from a gender perspective. And now this is an area where I think it's important to name that people, people's gender, and their pronouns, you know, like, can come in any set of combinations, right? And so I was no less genderqueer when I was still using she/her pronouns exclusively. But there is an element to me, of- of adding in the they/them pronouns that, I don't know, just felt like it captured more of my overall gender identity, and felt affirmed in that.

[27:38] Josée Sovinsky
I remember having moments and I still have moments of gender euphoria, when I read someone, you know, using they/them pronouns for me or hear them use, they/them pronouns for me, like, it's still, I still get those tingles. [both laugh] You know, of where I'm like, "Ah, I like this!" And that was really the, for me that like, okay, yes, this is something that I would like to request of people. Yeah, and I really had to sit with, with myself in terms of, you know, is there- is it really that I want to use she/they pronouns, or do I want they/them pronouns, and I'm, I'm- there's part of me that's, like, afraid of making that leap, because it feels a bit more risky, because people can, like, mess up a lot more, right?

[28:29] Josée Sovinsky
And I had to really sit with that, especially around the piece of like, I don't know, when I came out as bisexual, or even when I came out as genderqueer, like, I'm not really asking anything of people apart from just like seeing me for who I am. Right? But I'm not asking them to change anything in terms of their behaviors apart from like, yeah, being accepting and affirming, right? But when it comes to pronouns, like I'm actively asking that people do something differently. And that feels a lot scarier. Right, there's a lot more vulnerability with that- there's a lot more opportunities to be hurt. And yeah, so I had to sit with you know, am I using she/they pronouns because it gives people a pass, if they don't use they/them pronouns with me? Or is it actually because those are the pronouns that feel more affirming? And I think that's where I've landed- that it does actually feel quite affirming when people use both. But I did have that thought process [laughs] go through my mind and I'm sure it's something I'll keep questioning along the way as well.

[29:35] Chris Angel Murphy
You know, there's a lot of different pronouns out there. How did you land on they/them? There's, you know, like, what we would call neopronouns, and things like that: so why they/them?

[29:44] Josée Sovinsky
Oh, that's a good question. I don't know. I imagine a lot of it actually came from the people that I look up to: the nonbinary folks or like genderqueer folks that are either in my life or that I follow online, right? And seeing people use she/they pronouns and feeling like, "Ooh, maybe I want to try that on too." Right, like, I think it actually came through inspiration from other people that shared my identities and that, I felt inspired by. Yeah, I don't even think I really like question it, I was just like, "I want to try this, see how it goes." [laughs] And it worked out really well. So I don't know. Kind of it, it was really more so through observing other people and feeling seen through their experiences, right, and wondering if that was a clue for me.

[30:38] Chris Angel Murphy
Well, something else has changed about you- dun dun dunnn [Josée laughs] - you're no longer a qualifying psychotherapist; you're simply a psychotherapist now. So congrats, going to- [claps]

[30:50] Josée Sovinsky
Thank you, thank you.

[30:51] Chris Angel Murphy
- awkwardly clap for you. You know, and you shared that you're an ADHDer and neurodivergent. What's the relationship between those? And what do they mean individually for anyone not familiar with these terms?

[31:05] Josée Sovinsky
ADHD is a specific type of neurodivergence. So "neurodivergence" is an umbrella term for anyone whose brain "diverges" from society's expectations of what a quote unquote, "normal brain" looks like. And I don't like the word "normal," this is very much, you know, society's words, not mine [Chris Angel laughs]. And so ADHD, right, is an example of a way that a brain can diverge, right? From what is expected. ADHDers are also neurodivergent, right? Neurodivergence being that bigger umbrella category. But a lot of other experiences fall under the neurodivergence umbrella, including things like autism, personality disorders, [and] mental illnesses. So there's a huge range of experiences that can be considered neurodivergent.

[32:00] Chris Angel Murphy
You have some interesting theories about the intersection of the LGBTQ+ community and neurodivergence in general. So, do tell.

[32:10] Josée Sovinsky
We see a huge overlap [laughs] between the communities. Between folks who are neurodivergent and folks who are in different LGBTQ+ communities. Yeah, I've been sitting with why that is; why that intersection seems to be so common. The piece that I keep coming back to, is the diverging piece. It's the part that is like, there is an aspect of my being that feels different from what the world expects. So that feels true, both in my, like, queerness, and genderqueerness, as well as my neurodivergence. Like, all of those parts of myself feel like a way that I am different from what is expected.

[32:59] Josée Sovinsky
A word that I've actually been trying to reclaim [laughs], right- and I know that we've been doing this together- is the "weirdness" piece, right? And so I say "weirdness", like with lots of love and tenderness and care. I think being weird is pretty frickin' awesome. There is an element to both my queerness, my genderqueerness, and my neurodivergence that is, is weird, right? In the sense that it's like, yeah, not the expectation, not what the majority of people experience. That is where I feel there is a big connection.

[33:33] Josée Sovinsky
And I don't know, maybe I'm wrong, but I suspect that neurodivergent people are a lot more likely to feel an urge to push back on societal standards, especially societal standards that feel really frickin' arbitrary. [laughs] Right? And when we think of gender experiences, or even sexuality, like a lot of the beliefs that we hold, and a lot of what we consider to be like, quote, unquote, "normal" is completely arbitrary, right? It's something that like, for some reason we've decided on as a society, but there isn't necessarily a logic to any of that.

Like, as a neurodivergent person, but also being in community with neurodivergent people, folks tend to be a lot more comfortable questioning the standards or expectations, and pushing back on them and creating their own definition of like, who they are and how they want the world to perceive them. I think that might be another area where these two experiences tend to overlap. There's just this willingness and this need to push back on these expectations and standards and harmful beliefs.

[34:44] Chris Angel Murphy
My pipeline to neurodivergence was I got diagnosed by way of TikTok. Thanks, TikTok. [sighs]

[34:51] Josée Sovinsky
You and many other people. [laughs]

[34:52] Chris Angel Murphy
It happened-

[34:53] Josée Sovinsky
I love it.

[34:54] Chris Angel Murphy
Yeah, it happened November of 2021. It first threw me into ADHD rabbit hole, and then it quickly spit me into combo ADHD-autism. I was just finding myself going, "Why am I relating to this content? Why is it funny to me? [Josée laughs] Hmm." And then I started putting everything together, you know, had a whole thing happen with that, a whole journey. And now I think I'm in a better place with it, but I agree with what you said, as far as had I come from the other side of things- and what I mean by that is had I discovered my neurodivergence first- I think I still would have found myself in both communities. Because, like you said, that piece of just being a lot more open to questioning who I am, because it's like, "Well, this turned out to not be true from what, like, people map for our lives. So what else about me is different?" And I don't know, it also makes me think of the term "neuroqueer," which I'm not super familiar with, but your eyes just lit up. [Josée laughs] Is there anything you could share around that term?

[35:58] Josée Sovinsky
Yeah, I mean, I immediately think of the work of Dr. Nick Walker, who is a really, really cool person to learn from when it comes to learning more about neurodivergence from a queer lens. I'm still like wrapping my head around, specifically the term "neuroqueer" and what it means. But right now it feels like a really cool opportunity to kind of merge two experiences, right? And so there's a lot of really beautiful overlap in the communities. And I'm really excited to see how that continues to evolve.

[36:35] Chris Angel Murphy
When thinking about discovering your bisexuality, being genderqueer, ADHD- have there been any parallels for you with those experiences?

[36:47] Josée Sovinsky
One of the things that sticks out to me, coming to understand myself through all of those lenses, is that it gave me a framework in which to better kind of analyze myself or understand myself. And that's been hugely liberating, right? To better understand why I am the way I am. [Chris Angel laughs] And I know we have a standing joke in our friendship, where we say, "Why am I like this?"

[37:14] Chris Angel Murphy
Yes.

[37:14] Josée Sovinsky
In a very, you know, joking way. But truly, right, it has helped me answer the question of, "Why am I like this?" And that has mostly happened through finding community, finding queer community, finding neurodivergent community, and even better, finding folks who exist at both of those intersections as well, right? I think has been hugely affirming for me, and has allowed me to embrace parts of myself that, in the past, I felt I needed to change or needed to reject or needed to push down, or ignore, or- it's really helped me come into who I am and feel more solid in my understanding of who I am; which is a really interesting process. I don't know if most people experienced this in their adulthood, right? But for me, it's been really interesting. So that's definitely where I feel those experiences have overlapped. It's, it's really helped me to come to better understand myself, but also to better embrace myself and accept myself for who I am. So that's been really lovely to witness.

[38:29] Chris Angel Murphy
There is something about now, you know, being at this intersection of queer, trans, and neurodivergent, that when I'm with people who share as many of those identities as possible with me, I finally feel like I'm home. I'm just- yeah, I feel like I'm only now really finding my community. And even if someone's in at least one of those groups, it still feels, like pretty good, but yeah, there's something magical about sharing as many of those identities as possible.

[38:56] Chris Angel Murphy
Something interesting to me, that just popped up as I was listening to you, is thinking about, do- so I'm going to back up for a second and say- there's this concept of unmasking. I don't know that it's unique to the neurodivergent community, but basically that we're not trying to hide who we are, we're not trying to assimilate. If something comes naturally to us that, for example, to be present in this conversation, we're fidgeting with something- that we allow ourselves to do that. The question I'm trying to formulate here is, if we don't owe anyone our disclosure, do you think there's a difference when it comes to unmasking? Or what's- what do you think the relationship is there?

[39:39] Josée Sovinsky
I think both of those conversations to me come back to the idea of safety. I would never fault anyone for prioritizing their safety in any situation, right? Whether that's from a gender perspective, sexuality perspective, neurodivergent perspective, right? I think prioritizing safety makes a lot of sense. And so when it comes to neurodivergence, for example, unmasking, to me, requires a certain amount of safety. It's not with everyone that I'm going to, like, allow myself to be fully myself. And I do want to point out that in the situations where maybe I don't have that access to safety, it is exhausting, right? It is exhausting to push down the pieces of myself that really want to come out, or to pretend that I'm something that I'm not in, in those types of situations.

[40:33] Josée Sovinsky
And I spent years of my life trying to do that, especially in professional contexts, right? And so, I don't want to have to do that. And, you know, there are situations where I think I will have to continue doing that. I really dream of a world where that no longer is a thing that people have to consider, right? Like I really dream of a world where we've created safety and people can show up as their full selves. But for the time being, I think there are times where safety needs to to be the priority. And there's, again, grief that comes with that [laughs], right, of having to hide parts of who I am, depending on the context. And it- I think it's something that makes a lot of sense.

[41:22] Chris Angel Murphy
One of the first things that happened in our friendship was loving on "Heartstopper".

[41:22] Chris Angel Murphy
That feels like two years ago, at least, for me right now, even though it's not true at all [Josée laughs]. Yeah, however, we both watched the show individually and together. And for me, like, it unapologetically represents different experiences of young people, you know? We see things like queer joy, and that existence doesn't have to be defined by struggle, as some of the themes we might see in other shows. How did it feel for you to watch it? And what kind of things did you find yourself experiencing or thinking about as you watched it?

[41:58] Josée Sovinsky
[drawn out] Yes.

[42:03] Josée Sovinsky
It is such a wholesome show, in so many ways. And I mean, there's still painful parts to this story, but there's also, like you were saying, so much queer joy and that, yeah, made my queer heart very happy. It definitely brought up some grief around not having had that experience in high school. I came to these understandings of myself later in my life as a full-on adult. And so it's been very interesting to think back to my experience growing up and to think about what could have been different, you know? Had I had these understandings of myself and had I had community, right? Because I think if I had just had that understanding of myself, I still would have felt probably very different from my peers and you know, it was still the time, like, in terms of acceptance of queerness and all of that, there was still a ways to go, right? In terms of when I was in high school.

[42:03] Josée Sovinsky
Yeah, so there's definitely some grief around what sometimes feels like lost time. Especially because I see now all of the joy being in community has brought me. I have never in my life felt more seen and more affirmed and more accepted, right? Than I have, since I've discovered queer and neurodivergent communities and have found my people. And so in a way, it's not so much that I wish I had known those identities at the time, it's that I wish I had known those identities, so I could have found community, right? And been with my people a lot sooner in my life. I think from like a self-esteem perspective, right? From a mental health perspective, in general, I think I would have been much better off. But yeah, so there- it definitely stirred up those types of thought processes for me. It also gives me hope for future generations, their experiences might be different. Things are very slowly changing and people might be able to experience these things a lot sooner in their lives. And so yeah, so it was a mixture of like grief, and hope, and joy, and just overall, like, gushing, because like the adorableness in that show is just through the roof. And so, yes, all of those things- all of those emotions are happening all at once. [laughs]

[43:16] Chris Angel Murphy
Absolutely, yeah. No, we were- we were both experiencing those. Something that I talk about pretty frequently lately with other friends who are queer and trans: we experience time differently, for a lot of reasons. Like you said, some of those milestones that maybe you didn't get to have in your adolescence, or grief. I think grief I would also add to that. There's different things we grieve either because, maybe we don't have certain rights that other people do, or, or things like that. And so, you know, as a psychotherapist, if there's a client coming to you who's struggling with the time factor and grieving over things that, you know, they wish they could have had sooner, what do you think helps that process along? I mean, outside of just like the awareness of it, what are, like, things maybe you've seen that help people work through that?

[45:26] Josée Sovinsky
My first thing that I would do, right, is just provide a whole lot of validation, right? Sround how painful that is- how distressing it is right to exist in this world and to have these experiences that other people might not have or might not understand. And just make space for that- hold space for that with lots of tenderness and compassion.

[45:51] Josée Sovinsky
A big piece of the work that I try to do with people is situate the problem not in themselves, but in the world that we live in. For folks who are coming in, for example, who may be neurodivergent, right, and who have felt like they've been failing as adults for years, and years, and years- they've internalized that- "Like, I can't seem to adult. I can't seem to do the things that other people, like, are doing, right? And don't seem to be an issue." They are not broken, right, it's the world that we live in that is broken in so many ways and that needs to change. But there could also be relief, "Oh, okay, I am not the one who is deficient, right, or defective in any way. I was not set up to succeed." And the same is true for queerness and for transness: it is our world that makes it seem as though it's a failure, when in itself, it is absolutely not a failure. And in fact, I would argue that it's pretty beautiful.

[46:55] Josée Sovinsky
But yes, and then the piece that can be really challenging, but also really meaningful, is finding that community. That can start with online communities. Because it's easier to, like, filter for the types of identities, for example, you're looking for. That can be a bit harder for, like, in-person friendships, because you don't necessarily know those pieces of information when you're meeting people. And so it can be harder to know, kind of, where to spend your energy [laughs], if that makes sense in terms of building those connections. But yes, I think finding community allows people to build a bit of a circle of safety. So yeah, that's my long winded answer to your very big question [both laugh].

[47:38] Chris Angel Murphy
I've noticed with all of this, that it's a lot easier for me to forge relationships online, because when I think about meeting someone in person, I'm going to feel like I have to mask. I'm not sure if it's going to be safe to share my identities; there's just too many factors I can't control. But online, I for the most part, have a lot of control in the content I'm sharing, what I'm sharing about myself, etc. So like, I think our, I mean, our friendship, like, we just kind of stumbled into it very quickly at some point. But you know, I think it happened a lot more naturally, and felt a lot better for me than most of the time that I'm trying to become friends with someone because of those reasons. It just felt a lot safer.

[48:18] Josée Sovinsky
Well, in some ways you already knew parts of who I am. And I feel the same way about- about you, right? I already knew what type of, like, beliefs and values you were coming from, the identities that you held, right? Immediately made me feel like, "Okay, this is someone that I can probably have some trust in," right? And then see where it goes. But that's a lot harder to do in-person when you have no idea, right? If someone is actually like really ableist in their beliefs and you might only find that out, like, many, many hours [laughs] into, you know, connecting with someone. So it does feel like it comes with a lot more risk, sometimes.

[48:56] Chris Angel Murphy
A meme we can see online sometimes is: "[bi panic]"! That's how I'm choosing to read it today.

[49:04] Josée Sovinsky
Yeah.

[49:04] Chris Angel Murphy
It's usually in like, what are these brackets? Like, brackets, right?

[49:08] Josée Sovinsky
Yeah, like the-

[49:08] Chris Angel Murphy
Not parentheses.

[49:10] Josée Sovinsky
Square brackets?

[49:11] Chris Angel Murphy
Yeah.

[49:11] Josée Sovinsky
Yeah, those things. [laughs]

[49:13] Chris Angel Murphy
Or like sometimes you might see "[gay panic]."

[49:15] Josée Sovinsky
Yeah.

[49:15] Chris Angel Murphy
But like specifically, today, we're going to talk about "bi panic." It's a term you've used to describe your experience too, again, in our private conversations that I'm airing out with your permission [both laugh], but this is also relevant to "Heartstopper". I think a lot of those conversations were brought up because of when we watched that show together. So, I guess, how would you explain that to someone else? And what are some of the ways that it's shown up for you?

[49:44] Josée Sovinsky
The situations where I experienced that "bi panic" are situations where I am acutely reminded of my bisexuality [both laugh], if that makes any sense. So anytime I have these moments of, like, being very attracted to someone who is not a man, for example, I might have that moment of like, "Oh, yeah, right. I'm very bisexual." Right, [Chris Angel laughs] and like, having that moment and yeah, just like- it feels very comical in my mind because I know this about myself. Like, I've already settled on this being part of who I am. And yet I can like go through my life and, like, forget that sometimes just because, like, you know, it's not an active part of my day-to-day experience, necessarily. But then I'll have these moments where I'm like, "Oh, right, I am very bisexual. This is cool." [both laugh]

[50:43] Chris Angel Murphy
I love the scale you've created of, like, being very bisexual. What would it take for you to be like off-the-charts bisexual? What does that look like?

[50:52] Josée Sovinsky
Oh gosh, that is a good question.

[50:55] Chris Angel Murphy
I want to see that Josée.

[50:57] Josée Sovinsky
Yeah. [both laugh heartily]

[51:00] Chris Angel Murphy
I'm not trying to force you to, like, up your bisexuality, and yet-

[51:04] Josée Sovinsky
Yeah.

[51:05] Chris Angel Murphy
I think that's interesting.

[51:06] Josée Sovinsky
Yeah, it happens a lot. Like if I'm, if I am watching TV shows or movies or something, right? And I find myself like, very enamored with, like a character or an actor. And those are often the moments where I'm like, "Oh, right. This is very much part of who I am." And honestly, those moments are very affirming. They're very much moments that remind me that, like, I'm not making this up, [laughs] you know what I mean? Like, this is very true to my experience. It's not so much of a panic, to be honest, like I- I find it very funny that we describe it as a "panic," but it's a very positive panic. It's like, "Ahhhh! This is pretty awesome." [both laugh]

[51:56] Chris Angel Murphy
Was there ever a point at which it, like, didn't feel good? Especially before you claimed bisexuality?

[51:56] Josée Sovinsky
Definitely moments where it felt confusing. I wouldn't say it ever felt distressing. But there were certainly moments where I was like, "[drawn out] Ah, this is strange. [Chris Angel laughs] How do I make sense of this experience?" You know, in the context of like, my understanding of myself at the time still being that I- I was straight, right? And so there were certainly moments where I was like, "What does this mean about me?" Right? [Chris Angel laughs] And kind of led me down these big question mark moments. But yeah, it was never- it was never distressing, I don't think. I think because, thankfully, by the time I came to this understanding of myself, I think I was someone, like, who was quite affirming of various sexual orientations and so the thought of me being bisexual didn't bring up any sort of like- I don't think I had a ton of like internalized biphobia at that point, right? I was kind of like, "Oh, this is weird," you know? But, yeah, it's always been interesting- interesting experience of bi panic. [laughs]

[53:04] Chris Angel Murphy
Absolutely. Because I'm sure I've had nonbinary panic several times.

[53:09] Josée Sovinsky
Mm-hmm.

[53:09] Chris Angel Murphy
I can't think of a good example of that off the top of my head, but yes. Our last conversation, we talked a lot about how you disclosed your bisexuality to people. And you put a lot of work into it, because you anticipated people's questions and just front loaded your disclosure with a lot of information to avoid said questions, especially about your relationship with your partner, which is still going strong. Congrats. [Josée laughs]

[53:38] Josée Sovinsky
Thank you. Thank you.

[53:39] Chris Angel Murphy
Ahaa, oh wait, we're clapping [claps]- congrats [both laugh]. Just to keep up with the last time I was congratulating you.

[53:45] Josée Sovinsky
And I'm just bowing. [both laugh].

[53:46] Chris Angel Murphy
Yes, bows in genderqueer [Josée laughs]. Or I guess bows in genderqueer woman? Yes. Maybe I should have a video version of this podcast [Josée laughs]? Anyway, something to think about later. So, so thinking about all of the work that went into you disclosing about your bisexuality: what did you do differently, if anything, this time around with your disclosure?

[54:10] Josée Sovinsky
Yeah, the biggest difference this time around is that I didn't feel pressure to tell everyone individually. So when I came out as bisexual, I had a lot of individual conversations with people; so I had texted a lot of friends, you know, conversations in-person with some people. I don't know, at the time, that felt very important to me, I wanted the opportunity to share that maybe in a more vulnerable way with people. Whereas this time around, you know, I wanted to share this piece of myself with people but I didn't feel that I necessarily wanted to have that conversation over and over. So I felt that sharing it through my Instagram page, right, where I could specifically explaine, like, what this means for me, my definition of being genderqueer. Kind of gave people the information that I felt they needed [laughs]. And if they wanted to learn more, they could always ask me questions.

[55:06] Josée Sovinsky
But that felt good for me this time around. Yeah, generally, I would say it, it has been received really well, too. I had a few people see that post and then write to me and say like, "This is awesome, congrats!" Right, or some people that just like, liked the post, and then moved on and that feels okay, too [Chris Angel laughs]. So, I was a little bit less loud about it in some ways this time around, but that felt pretty good.

[55:33] Chris Angel Murphy
Based on what you shared with me last time, it sounded like it was utterly exhausting; you're nodding your head at me. I imagine some of it was like, "I'm not putting myself through that, again."

[55:41] Josée Sovinsky
Genderqueer is an identity that might be less familiar to people- I knew there would have to be explaining. Whereas, you know, with bisexuality, I think, at this point, most people have an idea of what that means. And yes, the thought of doing that over, and over, and over ,and over again, felt quite exhausting. And I was like, "I don't think I need to do that." And to be honest, I don't know that I wanted to see people's reactions, either. Sharing on Instagram, more publicly, people could take time to process that, then come to me if they wanted to. Not that I didn't trust that they would be supportive or affirming. But because I knew it would probably come with some confusion. It's a choice that I think I made in a lot of ways for my own safety and mental health and I- I'm, yeah, quite pleased with how things played out.

[56:30] Chris Angel Murphy
Yeah, I'd say you did pretty good.

[56:32] Josée Sovinsky
Thanks, friend. [both laugh]

[56:34] Chris Angel Murphy
It felt true to the spirit of the last reel. And just because someone might be practicing allyship and do a great job with it and everything, again, we don't owe people our disclosure. And it doesn't necessarily mean we don't feel safer with you- just- it's possible, someone could have been asshurt that you didn't tell them directly. But again, it's your decision. It's your comfort level. It allowed you a lot less emotional labor.

[57:01] Josée Sovinsky
That's exactly it. In a lot of ways, you know, how I decided who I was going to talk to about it wasn't a very, like, I didn't go through a list, you know, of the people in my life going like, "Yes, no, yes, no." Right? [Chris Angel laughs]. It kind of just happened, organically just through conversations with people, you know, if we were talking about gender, I might bring it up. Or it's not something that actually I put a lot of forethought into it, it was- it happened quite organically.

[57:39] Chris Angel Murphy
What have been some of your favorite or most affirming reactions of support?

[57:44] Josée Sovinsky
I really, really loved any reaction that was very celebratory. Because to me, it did feel I had gained this new understanding of myself. When people have responded with like, "Congratulations!" Right? Like that actually felt really, really lovely. I had one friend in particular just have this like, very big, joyful reaction to my disclosure. It was like, a "What?! Oh, my goodness, this is amazing! Congratulations!" [Chris Angel laughs] And I was just like, "Okay, this is the best." [laughs] You know what I mean? Like, it just felt very lovely, just to see the level of joy. There was also a lot of like, gratitude reactions of people, you know, sharing, like, "Thank you so much for sharing this part of you with me." Or, you know, that type of thing, which also felt really lovely. I think, I like that acknowledgement, because it's an acknowledgement that it's not always an easy thing to share. There were a lot of really lovely reactions, I feel quite lucky.

[58:49] Chris Angel Murphy
Heck yeah. You know, especially when I'm doing training when I'm going into companies and all that, when I'm sharing about someone disclosing, part of it is, like, mirroring them. Like, if someone's nervous, for example, I might choose to be more celebratory, because I want them to know, like, "Yeah, I'm going to celebrate this with you right now." And for some people, maybe it doesn't feel that way. Like, depending where that person's at, like, what's going on- I mean, there's so much context that would have to be given- but usually I try to mirror people's energy, or lean toward, again, just ,like, a positive, affirming- like thanking them, and yeah, celebratory. Especially if I know someone has been sitting with this for like, the past year or so, you know, and then they're finally like, claiming this identity, I feel like yeah, that is celebratory. I want to be like, "Fuck yeah, that's amazing!" [both laugh]

[59:41] Josée Sovinsky
Exactly, exactly.

[59:43] Chris Angel Murphy
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