[00:00:17] Chris Angel Murphy

Well, hello there. My name is Chris Angel and my pronouns are they/them. Welcome to Allyship is a Verb, the LGBTQ+ podcast that explores and humanizes practicing allyship for the LGBTQ+ community and beyond.

[00:00:38] Dr. Leah Tidey

Hello, hello, my name is Dr. Leah Tidey, and my pronouns are she, her, and hers.

[00:00:44] Chris Angel Murphy

It's the most wonderful time of the year to date. No, seriously, January sees the biggest dating boom each year, which means it's a great time to create a profile to meet others, you know, even though there's a pandemic going on. But that's why I'm thrilled to have my next guest be Leah as we talk about how some relationships can look. Maybe you've been taking some time to self-reflect on your dating style, who you look for in a partner, and maybe if you'd like to have multiple partners.

[00:01:19] Chris Angel Murphy

Quick side note to say that we recorded this episode back in late August of 2021. I got so excited about having the podcast, the Virgo in me wanted to be super duper prepared, and thus I have many unreleased episodes because I was worried about not having enough guests. Spoiler alert, that has not been a problem.

[00:01:37] Chris Angel Murphy

Leah is a sexual health educator, arts-based researcher, and podcaster in Canada. Her podcast, The Love Doctor, has over 50 four and five star ratings on Apple podcasts. I listen and what I love is that she makes research accessible. More often than not, research is hidden behind paywalls or uses language we may not be familiar with or typically use. Leah busts through all of that to make it digestible. I've learned so much and truly appreciate the topics she covers.

[00:02:09] Chris Angel Murphy

She's also a YouTuber with her partner Levi Hildebrand. That's actually how I found out about her work. We have an interesting story of how we met. I was watching Levi's channel because he talks about how you don't need to be a hero to save the planet and he breaks it down into simple ways, including what he does. Over time, Leah became more and more present in the videos. And so actually, pretty recently, the channel has turned into the Levi and Leah channel about how they try to lead a sustainable lifestyle as much as possible. They really let us into their lives, they're quite vulnerable on there and I really appreciate them for that. He also now has a second channel, Future Proof, which does a deeper dive into companies and their practices and if they do stuff like greenwashing.

[00:02:52] Chris Angel Murphy

All of that to say when they announced on the original channel that Leah has a podcast, I started listening. And then I decided, why not? I'm just going to reach out to her and see if maybe we can do some sort of collab and now we're friends working on projects together, which has been such a treat. She's a lovely human through and through and I'm going to be linking to some other episodes on her podcast where she goes further into depth about the topics we touch on today with other folks. I highly recommend them as a way to add to your learning, especially if the topics covered today are newer to you or are of interest. Here we go.

[00:03:28] Chris Angel Murphy
You identify as bisexual and practice consensual non-monogamy/polyamory. Can you share what those mean to you?

[00:03:39] Dr. Leah Tidey
Absolutely. So, I'll start with bisexual. I first started using that term for myself when I was 12. That has evolved, understandably, in the, you know, preceding 17 years as I- as I hope it would for many of us, that would change and evolve over time. So for me, it just means that in terms of my sexual orientation, people that I'm attracted to romantically, sexually, it's not just men and women on that binary, which I think a lot of people assume when it comes to bisexuality. But for me, it's more attracted to people themselves and not so much gender. I think a lot of folks will say that's, that's pansexuality. But there is a lot of overlap, I think in between, kind of the language that works for us. And I think to be fair for myself, again, when I was 12, I don't think I'd ever heard of being "pansexual." And I also think my understanding of gender was not very broad. I think I was like, "men or women and that's all I really know." But it has evolved, the more that I've evolved in the world in terms of my understanding of like gender and femininity and masculinity and sexuality. But bisexuality still feels right for me. So that's that's the main part.

[00:04:49] Dr. Leah Tidey
But I think what's interesting is, you know, being married to a man, a lot of people assume that that is no longer valid. They're like, "Well, aren't you formerly bisexual, but actually now you're heterosexual?" Like, um, it's not actually how that works. So yes, still very proudly bisexual. And I think what's been really fun for me, especially over the last few years, is just be really open and aware to how that evolves and fluctuates. And not saying that, like, "Ooh I'm really attracted to femme presenting folks right now. Or maybe I'm more into, like masc presenting, or what is that looking like?" And so, being really fluid in that own identity and not feeling like I need to, you know, I think "bi" connotates, like one or the other, you have to have like a 50/50, you know, interest in folks. And so just really enjoying the fluidity, I would say.

[00:05:43] Dr. Leah Tidey
And the next part of that was practicing consensual non-monogamy. And it's so funny because there's so there's, so much language when it comes to that, right? Like there's polyamory, there's ethical non-monogamy. So really, for me, it's just looking at our relational orientations as something that is separate but also intertwined with our sexual orientation. So for me, I've been primarily in monogamous relationships. But over the last few years, have explored with my partner, what that has looked like to have other people as a part of that, like, are we dating other people? Is it primarily sexual? Or is it romantic, or, you know, intimate companionate kind of love and relationships? And it has just opened my mind and my heart up in ways that I was not expecting. Like, I didn't know that I could feel so many emotions at once, in terms of, you know, dealing with your own insecurities, or jealousies, but also this incredible capacity to care for multiple people. And I think that's been a real gift. Obviously, it's not for everyone. And I think a lot of folks don't talk about it, even if they are, you know, practice non-monogamy. I think for a lot of professional reasons, people won't talk about it openly. So it's still a new space for me to be, like, taking up. And I would say like, yeah, in my role as an academic, it's not something I really talk about. But I'm slowly getting more and more into it, which is, I think, why I love talking to you and having like the podcast where I can be a bit more open about who I am in these conversations.

[00:07:22] Chris Angel Murphy
It kind of sounds like you've held on to the term bisexual because of your history with it, just because you've identified as bisexual for so long and you've reclaimed it in a way where that's your definition. You know, because like you said, I was thinking in my head, "oh, that sounds a little bit more like pansexual." Because my understanding of pansexual is it is, it's more just about the person versus the gender. Like, that's like one of the biggest differences. I'm like, "Cool, you've just reclaimed bisexuality for yourself in that way." And that's, that's totally fine.

[00:07:54] Chris Angel Murphy
It reminded me also of someone named Robyn, who's pretty big in the bisexuality community. And she has this really great definition and I'm just going to read it right now for folks, is "I call myself bisexual, because I acknowledge that I have in myself the potential to be attracted romantically and/or sexually to people of more than one gender. Not necessarily at the same time, not necessarily in the same way, and not necessarily to the same degree." And I know that resonates with a lot of folks and reminds me to of how you talked about, like, not needing to be this like 50/50 split, or that it's changed just because you're married to a man. So I guess I just wanted to leave that for a second and see if.. how that was landing with you.

[00:08:43] Dr. Leah Tidey
Mhm, no, I love Robyn's definition and I've read it before. And like you said and has really resonated with that. And I, I think there's a lot of misconceptions and prejudices around being bisexual. And so for me, it's a part of, you know, as Robyn defines it, right? It's the capacity to love, care for be sexually attracted to more than one gender. And for me, and there's a lot of, what would you say, kind of conflation of bisexual identity with non-monogamous identities, because people assume that if you have that capacity, then potentially you will need to be with more than one partner at a time. That's not necessarily true, for myself it is, so it's interesting when I'm always trying to address these kind of like myths and misconceptions, while also living some of them and doing that in a way that feels honest to myself.

[00:09:38] Dr. Leah Tidey
So, I think maybe a part of that for me, in terms of bisexuality, is how it's it's grown to be more encompassing and it's kind of a larger definition than how was it originally used. But same time, I think because I'm an educator and really aware of biphobia and bierasure, it's something that I have maybe not like held on to more firmly but really tried to raise awareness around it, because I find it hard in terms of being in different spaces. Because I mean, I hold so much privilege by being in a straight-passing relationship. And I can move through the world with all of that unfair privilege. And people won't question that about me. But I also don't feel super comfortable sometimes in queer spaces, because it's assumed that I'm straight, or when I've been straight spaces, people assume that I'm if I'm like, "too queer," so I'm always kind of in that world. I think it's definitely gotten better, but it's just an interesting space where I feel like I'm constantly needing to hold that ground and speak to who I am, but in a way that is informative, and open, and not trying to, like, shut people down if they have questions about it. But I've done a lot of my own embedded work about my own assumptions and things as an educator to make sure that I can do that in a safe way, so that, you know, I'm not always being the one is coming to bat for bisexual folks. There's lots of different people in that. Yeah, that's kind of what sparked for me and you reading that.

[00:11:09] Chris Angel Murphy
What helps you feel connected to your bisexuality?

[00:11:13] Dr. Leah Tidey
More and more, it's not necessarily a specific act that I do, you know? It's not like if I'm walking down the street, you know, holding hands with two different people to be like, "Whohoo, look at this!" like, this is, this is who I am...

[00:11:30] Chris Angel Murphy
Yay, gay Agenda!

[00:11:31] Dr. Leah Tidey
Yay! Absolutely. You know, or it's not like cuffing my jeans twice. And I'm like, "Definitely, that's, that's, that's what we do as bi's." But it's more so just like an internal sense of knowing that that is... is who I am. Or not to say that I like move through the world and like, constantly like, checking people out. But as you know, our bodies are always scanning the environment for what is sexually relevant. That's happening no matter who we are. That's what our brains are doing.

[00:12:01] Chris Angel Murphy
It's time for another Chris Angel voiceover. I'm really ridiculous this episode. Yeah. Anyway, so! As we've learned in previous episodes, if you've been listening for a while, there are people who are asexual or perhaps demisexual, and don't experience sexual attraction right away or they may never do that at all. So I just wanted to leave space for that here, because I don't want people to feel like they aren't being seen or heard or valued. It's natural, it's okay. And it's only a problem if it's a problem for that person.

[00:12:36] Dr. Leah Tidey
But for myself, and I'm moving through the world, and I'm just noticing, and it's not necessarily a sexual thing, but just noticing people for where they're at. And I feel like for me, it's how I've kind of started describing it, is I can see the romantic and sexual potential in just about everyone, and that feels very affirming for me. So it's not, it's just like kind of a little internal thing that's happening as I move through my day. And I'm like, "Yeah, I recognize this other person as like, a sexual romantic being," I don't know what that means for them. But for me, it's just kind of reading those that makes me feel very tied to that. And yeah feels just affirming in who I am.

[00:13:14] Chris Angel Murphy
I'm picking up like a lot of confidence in that, which is really cool. Do you think that ties back to some of the privilege that you've had? Or do you think you just like, love yourself loudly? Like, what? Yeah, what helped you? And I don't know, maybe I'm totally wrong, but yeah.

[00:13:31] Dr. Leah Tidey
it's been a journey. I definitely, I hold an immense amount of privilege. Like, as a white woman in North America, university educated, you know, like, middle class, like, all of these other things that, that have built it up, like society has built it up for me to move through the world in a way that's pretty easy, right? It's designed for me to do well and to feel comfortable and feel safe. The work to get to my own self-confidence is not nearly as much as for a lot of other folks, I think, because the world has already set up for me to feel validated in who I am.

[00:14:06] Dr. Leah Tidey
However, as a woman, and as a bi woman, as a young woman, especially in an academic space, but also just in the world itself, it has taken I would say most of my 20s to get to the point where I feel very much like "oh, this is who I am and I'm very proud of all of the work that I've done to get here." So yeah, like I'm glad that that's reading in terms of like that confidence. I will also say like that definitely comes from within me, but I'm very fortunate that my partner has been a huge part of helping me set boundaries. And I think, you know, himself as a white cis man, holds even more privilege than I do in the world. And so, is used to taking up space and not necessarily as used to empathy. And so the two of us have kind of blended together. Where I'm like, "Well, we need to think about what are, you know, what space we taking up? How am I caring for other people?" And he has helped me say, "How are you setting your own boundaries? How are you valuing your own time and your own space? And being very clear on that." And so I think for the two of us, I feel very fortunate over the last seven years, we have just, I feel like our identities have like rounded out a little bit, right? You're, you're in a partnership where you're like, "Oh, I really don't have that within me. And I'm so glad that my partner can teach me and show me how to do that."

[00:15:27] Chris Angel Murphy
It's interesting to also hear you use the term "partner." Is that something that y'all both like talked about? Or is that, like, intentional on your part?

[00:15:36] Dr. Leah Tidey
It is. It's funny, I always, I always go back and forth, because he's my husband, like, legally, we are married. But-

[00:15:44] Chris Angel Murphy
Three times, by the way. They didn't get divorced or anything, okay? Like, there was no divorce, they just

[00:15:50] Dr. Leah Tidey
No

[00:15:51] Chris Angel Murphy
they just love each other so much. It's happened three, and they just, you know, just this year had an engagement shoot. They do things differently and I love this about them. So.

[00:16:03] Dr. Leah Tidey
Right, it's trying to celebrate the relationship in lots of different ways. Yeah, thank you for that. And I think it's true. Like we're, I feel very fortunate in that. But I think especially when I'm, when I'm talking in a professional context, I think I will say, "partner." You know, I'm thinking back to your previous question, because I think for me that feels more affirming in terms of my bisexual identity. I like saying "partner" if people don't know who my partner is, because I don't want people to make the assumption. And as soon as I say, "husband," then they know.

[00:16:35] Dr. Leah Tidey
And it's not to say that I'm like, deceiving people, but also as someone who is kind of tiptoeing more into the non-monogamous space, "partner" can mean lots of different things. But it also, you know, Levi's my husband, but he is he's like, my partner in my life and like, a business partner. And he's, I don't know, all of these different things. Like, we are like sous chefs with each other, like, we are partners in so many different ways that I feel is more encompassing than the kind of stereotypical tropes we have around, you know, "husband and wife," and those kind of traditional roles. And I feel like, the way that we operate our relationship is trying to deconstruct that in our own way. So he's my husband/partner/person/life person.

[00:17:24] Chris Angel Murphy
I'm so glad you mentioned about all of the levels of how you two are partners, because I was gonna ask you about that. You live together in the apartment that you own, you have all of this business work that overlaps, I mean, you certainly have your own projects and stuff, but like the YouTube channel, and all like you do as well. And plus, then you're- you're married. And, you know, sometimes folks can get sick of the word "partner," just because there can be this notion of, "well what does that even mean?" And so for y'all, it's like almost in every sense of the word you're partners. So I guess you've chosen this angle of being more empowered by it versus like, and loving the ambiguity of it, especially if people don't know.

[00:18:11] Dr. Leah Tidey
Mhm.

[00:18:12] Chris Angel Murphy
Levi, and all of that. So I don't know, I'm really just glad that you touched on that.

[00:18:17] Dr. Leah Tidey
One thing I want to- I want to add to that is just that I think there's also privilege in the fact that I feel like I can use "partner" and I feel safe using that in my in spaces. And definitely, depending on who I'm talking to, I would potentially say "husband." Yeah, it's it's kind of interesting how, you know, not everyone has the option to marry the person that they love. And I do. And for me, it's almost, yeah, partner feels like empowering. But it's also a privilege that I can use that. And I can still feel safe and comfortable in my world to do that and be comfortable in that ambiguity because I'm not worried about someone. I mean, they might treat me differently, but I feel relatively safe to do that.

[00:18:58] Chris Angel Murphy
I definitely want to come back to basically being double-stigmatized. Starting with bisexuality, what's one myth you feel passionate about busting? And you can either elaborate on kind of where you've been going with it already, or we can dive into a different one.

[00:19:13] Dr. Leah Tidey
The one that I get so often and it just infuriates me, is that the myth that if you're bisexual, you are not a trustworthy person. You're not a trustworthy partner to have, that you constantly have to be worried that this person is going to cheat on you. They're never going to be sexually satisfied with- with just one partner because they have this capacity to care for or sexually be with, you know, more than one gender.

[00:19:38] Dr. Leah Tidey
So, for me, I just feel like well, our sexual orientation doesn't tell us anything about who we are as human beings. Like this, okay, this tells me like one aspect of who I am, but this isn't telling me whether or not I'm a caring and compassionate person. Am I a trustworthy and reliable partner? Or maybe I'm a really shitty human being, like, it- who knows? But me being bisexual, that overlap has nothing to do with the bedrock values and ethics in the way that I live my life. So, that's the one that really bothers me.

[00:20:13] Dr. Leah Tidey
And I know it's a question that Levi gets asked a lot of like, "You married her and like, now how can you trust that she's going to maintain those marriage vows? You know, how can you trust that she's not going to leave you for another person?" And I will say it is predominantly straight men who asked Levi by being like, "Are you afraid that she's going to leave you for another woman?" He's like, "No, but if she were to fall in love with someone else, I hope that she would feel like that was something that maybe she needed to do, or that we would have that conversation and that might not be a deal breaker, because we have spent many years building that foundation of strong communication." So that is a myth that I'm super not into. And then I also like, get personally offended because I'm like, "I'm a very trustworthy person." Like, I like to think that I've done a lot of work to be a good human being. And that is an ongoing process that I'm constantly engaged in, it's something I'm very passionate about. So, not into that at all.

[00:21:14] Chris Angel Murphy
So, maybe I just need more sleep. As you were sharing that, in my head, it was like, "In a world where bisexuals rule the earth." And it's like this horror story of like, reerr, rerrr, rerr. Bisexuals everywhere, scaring the poor, you know, cisgender, straight men who are just so confused and insecure. And I just feel like that could be an interesting concept to explore.

[00:21:39] Dr. Leah Tidey
Absolutely. Right? It's either like, "You can never trust them," or it's like "Sick, now I get to have a threesome." You're like, "Oh, no, that's not. No, that's not what that means. either."

[00:21:50] Chris Angel Murphy
"It's unicorn time!" No.

[00:21:53] Dr. Leah Tidey
"And you're a unicorn and you're a unicorn." Yeah, no. That's not how it works.

[00:21:58] Chris Angel Murphy
Oh, my gosh, well, this is a first, me doing different voices on the podcast.

[00:22:03] Dr. Leah Tidey
I appreciate it.

[00:22:04] Chris Angel Murphy
Thank you. I mean, it's something I do in my personal life, so it was bound to like, flood out into here. So thank you for creating that safer space for me to do my fake, like, movie trailer voice.

[00:22:17] Chris Angel Murphy
Because of all of the things that you just shared, when you talked to Levi about ethical non-monogamy and everything, were you scared that would rock your relationship? I guess, if you feel comfortable answering, I'd love to know how that felt for you. Yeah. Was that hard for you at all or?

[00:22:34] Dr. Leah Tidey
No, that's a great question. And absolutely, yeah, I feel I feel comfortable answering it. It's interesting, when Levi and I first met, I was definitely a much more meek individual. But one thing that I really appreciated is that I was very forthcoming with two things about myself that I wanted Levi to know. We'd only been dating for like maybe a month or two. And the both of us, I think I was 22 and Levi was 21 and I'm like, "I want you to know that marriage, ig that happens, great. I want to have children. That's a non-negotiable for me. One day, I want to have kids, just so you know, if this gets serious, that's the deal. Second thing. I'm bisexual. So, I don't know what that's going to mean moving forward in my life. Definitely means..." I think at that point, when I was 22, I was like "romantically, I've experienced some relationships with women. And I know that's something that I want to pursue further. I don't know what that's gonna look like, two things you should know." And he was so cool about it. I mean, to be fair, he was also like, I don't know, like dating this girl for like six weeks. So like, sure, like whatever, hypothetical children and potentially my partner having other partners or what that could look like... that sounds great.

[00:23:45] Dr. Leah Tidey
And now, seven years later, it is interesting because, like, I feel so appreciated to have a partner who sees me so fully and has kind of held that space for me to explore what that means and what that looks like. Not to say that it has been easy at all, I think if anyone decides to- any relationship at all monogamous or non-monogamous, requires I think, an intense level of like intimacy and vulnerability and really strong communication. And not to say that you need to start that relationship with very strong communication. I mean, it would be great if we all did, but it takes time to learn how this person communicates, how you communicate, and to find a way of understanding each other.

[00:24:30] Dr. Leah Tidey
So we have had many hard conversations, and I'm a crier, for sure. Like when I need to like emote, and I'm feeling lots of strong things, tears. So it makes it difficult sometimes. But I feel very fortunate that we always come back to you know, "You're the person who I want to, like, do life with, like I want to do all of these day-to-day things where we go for a walk together in the morning, we cook meals together, and we go to bed together." But there's space within that, for other people to be a part of that. And it's, you know, we hold space for lots of people in our lives, you know? If we're fortunate enough to have good relationships with our families, and I'm very lucky that I do, then our families are important people that we hold space in our lives, and our friends are important people who hold space in our lives. And we never get mad at anyone, for having too many friends and being like," Oh my gosh, how dare she have so many friends? She's taking away all time, her husband must be so upset because he never gets to see her because she has so many friends." I'm like, maybe but like, that's, that's some real toxic stuff. I'm like, No, thank you.

[00:25:37] Dr. Leah Tidey
But we do have a similar mentality when it comes to multiple partners in our lives, where people are like, "Oh, like you are taking away time from this other person, or you are not honoring that relationship the way it should be honored." So, I don't know. I've totally kind of like gone on a tangent from your original question. But yeah, it was just to say that that initial conversation was quite open. And I felt very seen and heard. And that has continued throughout our relationship. Through definitely ups and downs and it being difficult to come to terms what that actually looks like when you move from the abstract to the concrete. That's hard because it brings up things you don't expect. But that bedrock of respect and love has always been at the bottom of it. So, that has felt very affirming for me.

[00:26:26] Chris Angel Murphy
What's interesting, too, is that you were willing to put the cards on the table, especially in your early 20s. Because now in my 30s I'm like, "I don't have time, I don't have patience. Like, I don't want kids. So if that's a deal breaker, that's cool - bye," you know, like, that's where I'm at currently. And so for you to just, you know, be so sure of yourself, there's potential that some folks listening are like," that's a lot to, you know, say in the early stages," it's like, well, I mean, that's the whole thing is, it's not like necessarily avoiding wasting time, but kind of, you know? Just, you want to be honest about wanting that same white picket fence and 2.5 kids or whatever the data says now. So, I love that. Because one thing that can be challenging and confusing, exploring polyamory, and all of its different iterations is, you know, do you have a primary partner? And then how do the other partners relate to that primary? And, you know, there's like constellation polyamory. And there's just so many iterations. Have you gotten- do you feel close to landing on one that you feel like works for you, or is that part of what you're still exploring?

[00:27:43] Dr. Leah Tidey
I think is definitely part of what we're still exploring. And it's interesting, because I think, like academically and how I teach, I'm not really into hierarchy. So I'm like, I'm not really into that kind of thing. But in my own life, and in my partnerships, it's very clear that if you know, we are opening ourselves up to like dating or seeing other people, Levi and I are primary partners. Sometimes people call them nesting partners, like this is the partner that you live with. And knowing that, just very honest with people, like you know, "we are married, we have a mortgage together, like our lives are very intertwined, like our families are intertwined. And that's the kind of relationship that I want, with Levi," and not to say that that's going to be totally mutually exclusive throughout our lives. So when we have other partners, I don't think I would ever call them a secondary partner, but we're very upfront of being like, "we want to see you and I care for you and when I'm when I'm with you, I'm fully present and there. But knowing that, coming back to the two of us is kind of how we live our daily lives."

[00:28:50] Dr. Leah Tidey
So, it definitely gets interesting. And I have some friends who have constellations where they- there isn't a hierarchy, and it's just trying to make sure that- I think the hard thing is just managing your time. How do you manage the time? And of course, everyone's emotions and how we're doing, but just logistically, like, you got to make sure you have time for everyone and for yourself in that. And so we've set some pretty firm boundaries about you know, if you are looking for a long term partner that you want to have children with, that you want to live with, you want to get married to one day, that's not something we can offer. And, you know, and and for some people, that's fantastic, because they're like, "Yeah, like, I absolutely enjoy living by myself, I don't want to have children, but maybe I want to have, you know, like children adjacent, like aunts and uncles to children, you know?" And that's been great so far. We haven't had like a more long-term partner where we've had to negotiate that.

[00:29:47] Dr. Leah Tidey
Our longest relationship with another person has been about six months so far. But I will say in terms of, you know, polyamory, non-monogamy, and that, that the ending of a relationship like that, I know some people that can- can be immensely difficult and in any relationship, but it was just so lovely and beautiful. And we still connect with her, you know, every now and then. And we both left that relationship better than when we went into it. And that's always what I hope in any kind of interaction that you have with someone. That has felt like such a gift to the two of us that, you know, the three of us throughout that relationship were like, "how do we make sure that we are looking after ourselves and each other so when we exit this, that we are still feeling respected and loved and seen?" And so I feel very lucky that we were able to navigate that

[00:30:35] Chris Angel Murphy
What I'm hearing is intentionality, and communication, and the vulnerability of being honest, and and also self-awareness. I think it's taking all of these things for you to decide, like, "is this feeling good for me? Having the conversations if there feels like there's some sort of imbalance. Being you know, honest with yourself, even if you feel like you're not getting enough time for you and like, what maybe needs to shift, so it can be a lot AND it can be really rewarding.

[00:31:05] Dr. Leah Tidey
Mhm. Absolutely. But you have to do a lot of hard work before it gets rewarding. Like, there's this- I can't remember exactly how it's said, but a very sit- like silly kind of saying about like, "if you, if you want to have sex with other people, like outside of your relationship, then you cheat. And if you want to have lots of conversations, you're into polyamory." Like, that just, you know, like, that's kind of the deal- I think there's a real thing of like, "Oh, they're all these sex-crazed individuals who are getting it on with each other all the time." Like, but if you are practicing that consensual and ethical part of it, then you are really cognizant of boundaries and you're having far more conversations about safe sex. And I think COVID has taught us a lot about who's in our bubble? And what does that mean? And how does that extend? And so people in you know, polyamorous communities relationship, they've been having these conversations for a long time. And now the rest of the world is like, "Oh, I have to talk about who am I seeing purely for contact tracing." So, as sexual health educator, I'm very into it in terms of like awareness of sexually transmitted infections and things like that. That's a little sidebar.

[00:32:14] Chris Angel Murphy
Absolutely. We are talking more about consent, and negotiating, and checking in with ourselves about what our values are, and having to make really tough decisions sometimes. So I guess, outside of what you've shared already, what's something else you'd like for people to know about consensual non-monogamy or ethical non-monogamy or any of the various names that it might have?

[00:32:43] Dr. Leah Tidey
It confronts our understanding of what a relationship "should look like." I'm doing bunny ears right now around should, for folks who are listening. And I think just because of what we see in in media, what we see in so many things that we consume is, you know, two people are mutually exclusive. They get married with each other, live happily ever after, you know, there's that whole story. And as soon as you kind of start to fracture that and open that up to the potential to have more people within that, it can scare a lot of people and understandably. Used to really scare me, because I felt like, how could my partner truly love me, if there's somebody else who's a part of this relationship? Or they have another relationship with someone else?

[00:33:31] Dr. Leah Tidey
And again, what I said before about friends and family, like, I don't think Levi loves me less because he also has a great relationship, like with his mother? Or, you know, with up- with his friends like that. We're not worried about his capacity to love when it comes to other important relationships in his life. And I would say, equally intimate relationships, intimate in very different ways. So, for me, I just think it does take a bit of a brain shift. And again, it's, it's it's not for everyone. But I would definitely, I think our understanding of monogamy is also quite fluid within that and our understanding of like cheating.

[00:34:11] Dr. Leah Tidey
Like Esther Perel's excellent book, State of Affairs, I recommend everyone reading it, because regardless of the relationship status that you hold, being able to be very clear about what your boundaries are, and what do you consider to be cheating? Is it watching porn? Is it having an intimate friendship with someone else? And we come in with these assumptions based on "Well, this is what monogamy means to me." And we project that onto our partner. And so if we push past those boundaries, and maybe we don't know, so I just think it opens up our terms of communication. So regardless if you are ever going to practice non-monogamy or not, it's important to think about what those boundaries are and our relationships.

[00:34:54] Dr. Leah Tidey
The other thing I want to say is I'm- I'm having a bit of a quandary lately about the term "consensual" and the term "ethical" in front of non-monogamy because it kind of assumes that it's non-consensual. And that is not the case. But if that if it's unethical and it's non-consensual, then I would say that would be cheating. That's, that's breaking the contracted boundaries of that relationship. As an academic, I understand why we still use those terms, because we need to make sure that people know what we're talking about when we're interviewing them or ask them questions about it.

[00:35:30] Dr. Leah Tidey
But I think for me, it just thinks about how can we be consensual and ethical in all of our relationships. And if you're in a non monogamous relationship, you are confronted with that very early on, because, sure, you could go off and have a ton of sex with lots of different people if that's what you want to do. However, if you are in multiple partnerships, there's a lot of groundwork that has to be laid to make sure that everyone is safe, that everyone's boundaries are being respected. So I think there's a lot that can be learned, regardless of relational orientation, based on how folks in the polyamorous community have navigated relationships, and boundaries, and consent for a very long time.

[00:36:10] Chris Angel Murphy
You're right, and I'm so glad that you pointed that out because I hadn't thought about it before. And I know that there can be, just like in the queer and trans worlds, different variations for why people use the language they do. And it's like, y'all, and I'm broadly gesturing to the, you know, polyamory and community and beyond alphabet soup of that. You know, y'all have to do extra work to get any respect, you know? There has to be these extra words, to just double down on that this is ethical and consensual, like you said. Why can't it be like the cheaters who have to do the extra work of, you know, having to say unethical non-monogamy and things like that? So it's, and that's a little judgy of me. A little judgy Virgo. The little I know of being a Virgo is coming out a bit. I'm one of those queer people who's just like, "I don't know what my moon or sun rising is? I like sunsets."

[00:37:12] Dr. Leah Tidey
Oh, I see you Chris Angel. I feel you. When we first entered into a constellation potentially with- with a group of other people, you know, they were like, "What's your sign?" I'm like, "I'm an Aquarius," or like, "Oh, that tells me so much. But what time of day, were you born?" We got into a whole conversation. I was like, "I-I'm sorry." I feel like it was one of those moments was like, I don't know if I'm queer enough, because I don't know enough about astrology. But it's a whole.

[00:37:40] Chris Angel Murphy
No.

[00:37:41] Dr. Leah Tidey
I know.

[00:37:42] Chris Angel Murphy
And it's, it's so wild. And I guess, because we've talked about it so much, can you help us to define what constellation polyamory looks like?

[00:37:52] Dr. Leah Tidey
Absolutely. Not as someone who is an expert, I will say, but from my own understanding a constellation, which I kind of love the idea of it of it, like being in the stars. So folks who are big astrology fans, this is- this is for you. It's the idea where one partner has you know, they're dating or in a relationship with someone else. And that partner may have another partner. So in polyamory it doesn't mean that everyone who's in this relationship is in a relationship with each other romantically, sexually. I mean, so some people would call it like an anchor partner. So two people share the same partner. And that would just be you know, if you were looking at Orion's Belt, let's say, in the-in the sky or something like that is, they're all connected, but they're not necessarily like, in a circle, or all, you know, connections aren't coming back to each other.

[00:38:44] Dr. Leah Tidey
So the constellation would just be a series of stars or people that are connected to each other, but aren't necessarily all in sexual, romantic relationships with each other. I think that's when people get confused. They're like, "So your, like, girlfriend's partner? Are you also seeing them?" I'm like "no, I like- I know who they are, they know who I am. But like, I'm not also dating them. That's not what that means."

[00:39:07] Chris Angel Murphy
Right.

[00:39:07] Dr. Leah Tidey
Sexual health-wise, I should know what's going on. Make sure we're all getting tested and stuff regularly. But it's just saying that they're- we are linked to each other through this constellation.

[00:39:19] Chris Angel Murphy
Yeah, as a queer person. You know, some of the early cinema and all that that we'd have were shows like L Word, depending what generation we're coming from. And, you know, I went over to my friend's house we had, like, taco night, I was in charge of the meat and we'd watch The L Word, but the reason I talk about The L Word, and we won't even get started with that show, I'll just get really mad what they did to Max and everything. I just can't but, but-but-but what I think of is the hilarity around the mapping and like who all Shane was linked to, and stuff, right? And that that was strictly, I would say more sexual than anything else. It wasn't necessarily like relationships, but like, yeah, showing how small the community can can be and everything. But the mapping's easier for me to understand because I, it just makes me think of The L Word, but I do love, like constellation polyamory. That just sounds really beautiful, too. So.

[00:40:15] Dr. Leah Tidey
Well and I know friends where it is, it has worked so beautifully for them, right? Because you're all aware of each other. Like the one that- that I know most intimately, like, knew there was one anchor partner, but the two other partners, they're called "metamours," as in the you have, like, you share the same lover, basically. "You're my lover's lover." So, but they were also best friends. So, they had a very intimate relationship with each other that was not sexual, but I would say, a still a very important relationship in their lives. And they're still- and they are still dating that same another person, right? So, I just think that was really beautiful the way that they went about that, but was definitely hard for them and and all of them identifies as queer women, and so, had a really hard time where their lesbian, bisexual, and queer identities were very- felt very validated in certain communities, but their constellation and their ethical, non-monogamous ones didn't. And so trying to balance the stereotypes and stigmas associated with different aspects of their identity was very interesting to kind of witness and consider in my own life.

[00:41:27] Chris Angel Murphy
You being a sexual health educator, so naturally with this, it's something that you'd study, there's various topics that get covered. I'm wondering, did you see misinformation that like harms our community broadly, like LGBTQ+? Or did you find that the topics and conversations were more inclusive?

[00:41:50] Dr. Leah Tidey
I think, in my own receiving of sexual education, as a student of that, there wasn't a lot reflected outside of that very heteronormative script. And so it was a big part of why I wanted to become a sexual educator. I'm also just a real sex nerd, like I am interested in relationships and how people sexually relate to each other. I'm also interested in, like, babies and how they're made, how they come into the world. I think it's all just fascinating to me. I'm super down, super into the human body, I think it's fascinating. But I was really fortunate in that the training that I did, is very queer-inclusive and run by, you know, a queer woman herself. And it's a really fantastic organization, its Options for Sexual Health. It's based in in British Columbia, where I live in Canada.

[00:42:39] Dr. Leah Tidey
And there was just a real emphasis on how do we work from, from a position of inclusion? And that means that we're using language that the people that we're working with, would know, would understand. So that comes from when you go into a community or classroom, and sometimes its hard, you know, as you know, in your own work. Sometimes you only have an hour with people, but you're trying to meet them where they're at. And then from there, expand their understanding. So I felt very fortunate that the education that I received felt quite inclusive.

[00:43:11] Dr. Leah Tidey
I don't know if it was the same in terms of my academic experience, but definitely in terms of my sexual health educator training. Really beautiful work around that- around inclusion, around working from harm reduction, and a trauma-informed approach, like really trying to be aware in multiple ways. And being aware of the space that you hold in the room and trying to acknowledge that, because as teachers, we're not just teaching from our knowledge, we're teaching from our gaps. And people are reading that constantly. So you need to recognize those and own those and say, "There's going to be things that I'm going to miss out," but so when I teach a class, depending on the age group, and how much the teachers or school district are observing me, I try and really, I say quite clearly that I'm bisexual at the beginning and just say, "This is who I am. And this is not like, you know, being bi isn't like the essence of who I am as human being, but it does change how I teach and how I perceive the information that I'm going to share with you today, so I want you to know that."

[00:44:13] Chris Angel Murphy
More and more, especially as we've been seeing more influencers on places like Instagram and all that, there's just call for transparency, and who are you? Who is the person running this account? What are your privileges? And things like that, and like you said, it can absolutely shape the experience, for better or worse, you know, to some people, that would be their opinion. So when you are facilitating workshops for these various groups, how does it feel for you to get questions like, "How do I know I'm gay?"

[00:44:46] Dr. Leah Tidey
It's always so hard because I just want so much more time with them, right? Because, you know, a one or two-hour session and knowing that potentially I can be one of the only safe people that they could ask that with. I'm not saying that I'm a safe person for everyone, that's not- totally not true. But I when- when people feel vulnerable enough to ask those questions of me, I feel very honored first, I feel honored. And then I start to sweat because I'm like, "How can I answer this concisely? How can I like to load you up with resources?"

[00:45:20] Dr. Leah Tidey
And what I find, especially as a sexual health educator, is that I'm always trying to find what's underneath the question that you're asking me. And 99% of the time, it's, "Am I normal? And am I going to be okay?" Right? And so I mean, that's something that Dr. Emily Nagurski talks about in Come As You Are, and so many good sexual educators, that's what it comes down to- the "Am I normal" piece. So if someone asked me, you know, "Am I gay? How do I know if I'm gay? How do- how does that work?" What I really tried to assure them is that this part of who they are is something to be celebrated. And that it's something where there is community and resource and information for you. And you are not abnormal for thinking this, you are not abnormal for having these feelings. You are absolutely valid. "Normal." It's funny how it's like, we just ascribe so much meaning to normal, like, "Ohhh, I just want to be normal and more"

[00:46:21] Chris Angel Murphy
And more bunny ears happened. Just so y'all know.

[00:46:22] Dr. Leah Tidey
Oh, so many bunny ears. Yeah, so I don't know. It's I don't think I would be able to give a specific response of what I would say, because really depends on the age group as well. And thinking about, you know, what's going on for them? And what have they seen? What are they consuming in the media? So I can address like, "Oooh, where is this question coming from? Or coming from your own experience, or?" A lot of the time, I'll center it around, "for myself, you know, I kind of figured out or learnt that I was bisexual, just the way that I was observing multiple different people in my life and feeling like, 'Oh, my body is feeling lots of things when I'm looking at this girl in my class. And I'm also feeling all these things when I'm looking at this, like, young boy in my class, and like, why might that be?'" And my apologies, very gendered language. But again, I'm a kid of the '90s, early 2000s, I was definitely- there were boys and girls in my class, not to say there weren't other kids, but definitely not openly about their gender identities.

[00:47:26] Dr. Leah Tidey
But I try and share my own experience, because that's the only one I can really speak to knowledgeably and to just say, "You are valid, and I see you, and how amazing that how whatever age you're at, that you are asking yourself and learning this about yourself now, like what a gift." So, really just trying to celebrate that and lead them down a path of more information.

[00:47:48] Chris Angel Murphy
Can you share about one time you felt truly supported by someone and what they did to show up for you?

[00:47:56] Dr. Leah Tidey
You know, as I reflect on that, I think of how lucky I am that there are multiple things that come to my mind. Some of the conversations that I've had with my mom have felt just so affirming. The fact that I've become much more vocal, and you see like online and through the podcast, much more vocal about being bisexual, that's been a big part of, it sounds really terrible to say, like, "my brand." That's not what I mean. But it has become a big part of "this is the topic that I really want to talk about. And I'm going to leverage this privilege that I have to talk about this topic that means a lot to me and that people have a lot of questions about." And also about non-monogamy, as I'm I'm like- I feel like like a baby polyamorous as I'm, you know, I'm learning, as it's a constant thing.

[00:48:44] Dr. Leah Tidey
But I think what's been really affirming is, I get to be in that process of learning and I can talk about that with my mother. And I can talk about it, as she is someone who loves me so immensely and brought me into this world. But she's also an academic. She's also an educator, she got her PhD from the same university that I got my PhD from. And so I feel so immensely grateful that we can talk about the work that we do at a quite a high intellectual, like, "How do we educate people? How do we hold accessible places? How do we decolonize our teaching?" And so I just feel so seen from her. I don't know if there's necessarily a moment, but just as our relationship has evolved, and I become more open about who I am, we can talk about that in ways that are intimate and also abstract and larger. And I just feel so fortunate to have that relationship in my life.

[00:49:36] Chris Angel Murphy
So, at times when people come out as LGBTQ+, they can field a lot of invasive questions from well-intentioned people or maybe sometimes NOT well-intentioned people. What's one question you wish people would stop asking?

[00:49:54] Dr. Leah Tidey
"Have you had a threesome?" I know, I think it's "Have you had a threesome?" I think that's the- the question that people get asked so often because there's an instant sexualization of your identity, and I think I'm also hyperaware of that, like as a woman of, of being constantly positioned as a sexual object, and not as a subject of my own desire and pleasure.

[00:50:18] Dr. Leah Tidey
Because in that moment, and again, I'm not like laying this at the feet of, you know, cisgender straight men, but that's primarily who I do get this question from, because it is playing into potential fantasies that they have. Having threesome fantasies A) is so normal. So normal, it's like the most common fantasy that we have. A lot of people don't actually act on it, but it's super common. Totally down for people have those fantasies. Absolutely. If you want to like masturbate thinking about that, that's great. Don't bring me into that by saying, "have you had a threesome?" Because I'm like, "Yeah, I'm not here for your fantasy. That's not what this is for." So I think that's the question that.. I'm down to talk about threesomes, totally. Totally fascinated, I told you. I'm a total sex nerd. Let's talk about it. But I'm not talking about in the sense of because I'm bisexual, because of all these other aspects of who I am, I'm not here to be your threesome guide.

[00:51:14] Chris Angel Murphy
Yeah. And to your point, it felt like it kind of started as Levi's channel. And now it's branching out as y'all, again, are just working together more closely and everything. And there was a moment where you started to be more and more present in the video. So not just part of like B roll footage. And so one of the things y'all have done is taken to places like Instagram and asked folks, "hey, what's something you want to ask us?" And something that I love that you did was someone did ask like, "have you had a threesome?" And y'all just simply said, "yes." And then you moved on. Do you regret even answering it? Or are you-- do you still feel really proud of how you tackled that? Like, can you share more about that?

[00:51:58] Dr. Leah Tidey
I'm quite happy. I think with how we respond to that, we definitely thought about it because that crossed a threshold. Because when Levi first started the channel, and to this day, a lot of people will use his resources in the classroom in like elementary and high school classrooms, which is great if people want to talk about the environment and things like that, absolutely. Like power to use this tool and whatever kind of works for you. But that was kind of crossing a threshold of now we're getting into intimate territory. And as the audience has kind of grown up with us, I think they're ready to know more about the intimate aspects of our life. And we feel more prepared to share that. So I'm super happy that we just said "yes," because I was also aware of- people do have access to our life, they see what we look like, they see our bodies on screen all the time.

[00:52:46] Dr. Leah Tidey
And once it's out in the world, it's-it's-it's no longer ours. Right? That's that's what happens. Like you make a post you share something and, yes, technically, it is your content that you've created. But now, it's just like when you're creating art, as soon as it's out in a world, it's the audience and how they're consuming it. It is- it is now their's. And that's a part of going public in it. So I yeah, I was happy to answer it and to kind of destigmatize, like, what a healthy relationship can look like. And people in healthy relationships can have threesomes, that's absolutely fine. But also, I was like, "You don't need to know all the details, because I know what is behind that question."

[00:53:27] Chris Angel Murphy 53:27
Absolutely. So, what's something you wish people asked more of instead?

[00:53:32] Dr. Leah Tidey
How do I better support people in my life to have these conversations? Or, you know, why I'm so happy that you're making this podcast, "How can I be a better ally?"And it's not necessarily you want to ask that to people who have had to deal with that, right? It's like, "How do I be a better ally to someone who's bisexual?" And always ask the bisexual people. Like, go do your own learning and stuff, but especially if I'm in educator mode, and especially if I'm working with youth, or people who just- who don't know, I want to be that safe space to be like, ask me that question to say, "how can I be a better ally? How can I how can I be a safer place?" I would love if people asked me that more, of just "How do I be a supportive friend? How do I listen really actively and deeply when people are trying to tell me about who they are?"

[00:54:22] Chris Angel Murphy
I concur. Which leads us nicely into, what's one allyship tip you'd like for everyone listening to consider?

[00:54:30] Dr. Leah Tidey
That active deep listening, I think is something that we forget to do. And it's such, like a, like, my grandfather said this to me years ago, but like, "Leah, you only have one mouth and two ears, like there's a reason, you know?" Like something like that. I think I was a little chatterbox little kid like, "Murh murh murh" and grandpa, really who was trying to have a moment of peace and quiet. However, I think that is a valuable thing to think about. If we are listening and considering twice as much as we are offering our own opinions on the world, think about how much more you are taking in that is beyond your own existence and perspective?

[00:55:08] Dr. Leah Tidey
If we're able to show up for people, and by showing up, that also means shutting up and just like, and just listening, because you don't know what you don't know. And I, even as, you know, like you and I've had this conversation before, like privately, like as friends, chatting about how there's so much of your own, like, bias that can like come up in those conversations. And just because you've talked to one person who is trans, one person who is bisexual, doesn't mean that now, you know, you know trans people. You know, the bi people. Like you, you are a queer ally, because you've met one queer friend. That's not really how it works. So, I think just being really okay with that active listening. I think we're so taught to center our own positionality and experiences in the world, and the more that we can decenter that and think about the space that we hold and the space that we take up, that we're just going to be better human beings.

[00:56:07] Chris Angel Murphy
Well, friends, thank you for listening. I'm also incredibly grateful to Leah for making the time to be on my podcast and share so much of her story. Leah, you rock and I appreciate you!

[00:56:22] Chris Angel Murphy
Before I jump into the self-reflection questions, I wanted to ask a quick favor. Spotify now offers podcast ratings. If you've been getting anything out of the podcast and listen on Spotify, will you please leave me one? I'd also appreciate any reviews on Apple podcasts if you listen there instead. It helps me to amplify my guest's stories and allyship tips, so thank you for considering. And if you already have, thank you so much.

[00:56:54] Chris Angel Murphy
Okay, it's that time where we dive into self-reflection questions.

[00:56:59] Chris Angel Murphy
Do you know anyone who practices ethical or consensual non-monogamy?
If you know about it, where did you get your information from?
Have you heard about it in any of your classes or throughout your education?
Do any shows, movies, or other media you consume accurately portray it? Is it made to be a joke?
Do you know of any love songs that aren’t strictly for monogamous couples?
If you know of anyone who practices it, do you make sure to invite all of their partners to outings or events?
If you don’t practice it yourself, have you examined your own beliefs around it and done your own research?

[00:58:07] Chris Angel Murphy
Visit AllyshipIsAVerb.com for any resources and a full transcript of the episode. And remember, sometimes allyship means actively listening.