[00:00:00] Charlie Ocean: Well, hello there. I'm Charlie Ocean, and my pronouns are they/them. Welcome to Allyship is a Verb, a podcast for people practicing allyship, for the LGBTQ+ community, and beyond!

[00:00:25] Patrick Ladonis: Hi everyone, I'm Patrick Ladonis and my pronouns are he and him.

[00:00:32] Charlie Ocean: Shout out to PFLAG Los Angeles! (voice echos) I'd like to formally invite you all to PFLAG LA Presents Trans and Nonbinary Joy. It will be on the evening of November 16th via Zoom. It's free, so I hope you'll join us. And no worries if you can't attend live, it will be recorded so you can watch it later.

I'm so excited to release this episode with Patrick because I had been pursuing him for like a year (laughs) and we had to keep delaying for different reasons. We had met through Out in Tech, and we had great conversations, but life was getting in the way, and as you'll hear, he's an incredibly busy man, so I'm glad that we were able to make it work out.

Here are three self-reflection questions for you to consider during the episode, and be sure to stick around after the conversation for three more.

1. How is my self confidence?

2. How do I want people to perceive me?

3. What do I think contributes to the safety and well being of LGBTQ+ employees at work?

And now the conversation.

You are Black, gay, and a filmmaker, among many other things, but what do those intersections mean to you?

[00:02:01] Patrick Ladonis: Wow, those intersections. Man, it means that I am beautifully complicated while yet fascinated by the fact that I'm still discovering more about myself and others. And that I think I see life through a visionary lens for not just myself, but for the people that come in and out of my life.

[00:02:28] Charlie Ocean: I wrote down that you love being gay because that was one of the things that came up in our conversation. And I'm wondering if you can share more about that.

[00:02:37] Patrick Ladonis: Ooh, let's see. I love being gay because it's, it's who I am. It's, it's part of the story. It's, it's a chapter in the book of life called Patrick Ladonis. It's because I see things where there's something unique about being a part of this special community. You know, LGBTQIA+ I don't care how many alphabets we are because we make our own rules and I love it. We're fashion forward. We are very, I mean, we are the head of so many movements, even some that we don't even get the full credit for.

A lot of times we actually live in our truths more so than people who are not rocking our representation. You know, we, we have to go on this journey while others don't. So it's like, I love being gay. I mean, it took me a while to get here, even though I was always here, whether it was the fact that, you know, my parents saw it, my mom knew automatically, but, it's embracing that.

It's almost like we've become superheroes. Like, once you finally get your power, you're like, "Wow! You know, this is my power." So, when I look at being gay, it's like, I've always been a hero. It just took a while for me to fully embrace it and, like, activate them, per se.

And so, that, to me, is when I think about, you know, the struggle of coming out. that fear, what that was gonna look like, and feeling ashamed, but then finally moving past all of that stuff, which was in the early chapters, to finally being like, I have fully accept myself. I love who I love. I love being me. I love my friends. I'm a good, decent human being. So, I mean, yeah, like being gay fucking rocks.

Like, (Charlie laughs) period. That's like the end of the story.

[00:04:34] Charlie Ocean: We all deserve to be seen for who we are. How do you want to be seen in the LGBTQ+ community and the world at large?

[00:04:42] Patrick Ladonis: I believe that I should be seen as an individual who lives in their truth, respects others. I want to be seen among - literally, when I think of my community, it's like those are my peers. That's why we're the rainbow. There's so many beautiful and fascinating concepts to who we are and how we exist in this world. I want people outside of the LGBTQ+ community to recognize me as an individual who fully has self-awareness. And of course, the visionary, the creative, the HR leader, or the person who champions for diversity, equity, inclusion, and belonging across many spectrums, the mentor.

I want people to see all of that. But when you see me, I need you to truly see me and not just you know - don't see me through a blurred lens. Like, if you're going to see me, you're seeing all of me, the gay in me, all of it. Like, there's no blinders whatsoever.

[00:05:48] Charlie Ocean: Going back to the thread of being a hero and that self awareness, what is something you've learned about yourself since learning that you're gay and then embracing that part of yourself?

[00:06:01] Patrick Ladonis: I lacked confidence because I think for a long time - and this is even as an adult - I lacked confidence because I wasn't fully living my truth. I hadn't fully been, I guess, "out," per se, to the masses. So there was always a portion of me that felt hidden and ashamed. And because of that, there was a lack thereof of confidence, at times, to so many things. And that was such a heavy weight on me, per se.

But once that weight came off it was like, holy shit, like, not in a vain way, by any means, it was just a confidence in, you know, how I approach people, how I recognize me, how if a company that I'm interviewing with, if they don't recognize or acknowledge or celebrates the authenticity of who I am, then that's not a good fit for me.

I no longer feel like I need to go in hiding and wear a mask of who I am and how I should show up in the world. So I think that to me has been the biggest outbreak for me. It's just, I came out of, like, I'm fully confident - and because I'm confident in my truth and in myself. And I think when we get, when all of us get there, again, we all have our - it's a journey to get there - but once we get there and tap into that superpower, it's like, (laughs) it's like, fuck everything else. I mean, pardon the listeners (Charlie laughs) out there, I like to curse a little bit. But it's like, fuck everybody else, because I know who I am and I, I stand in that and no one can take that away from me.

[00:07:42] Charlie Ocean: That sounds like a huge shift, energetically. Which, so then going back to HR, and I think you call it "D-E-I-B." diversity, equity, inclusion, belonging. Something I've noticed, being someone who's an LGBTQ+ speaker, trainer, consultant, and all of that, I think there was a lot of energy around 2020 with a lot of companies committing to doing this type of work. I've noticed since then, it's kind of dropped off.

I've been seeing a lot of DEI professionals be laid off, including like directors of DEI at an organization, budget cuts have been made to like employee resource groups or affinity groups. There's been a deprioritization of professional development as it relates to learning about different communities. I mean, is that what you've been seeing? And - yeah, I guess I, I wanna leave that open-ended just for anything you might wanna share around that.

[00:08:47] Patrick Ladonis: I have seen a lot of that. I have friends and colleagues who specifically are DEI practitioners be impacted heavily. And it's extremely disappointing.

What's so interesting is I just had a conversation. I was in a, I was part of a panel today; we were talking about the disappearance of DEI and companies. Like it was "Woo, 2020." You know, George Floyd murders, and so many companies were taking a stance here. But I think where the misalignment came from - because DEI is not just a buzzword - is, I think people were looking for a quick fix or "let's throw all this money to it and I'm sure we'll be able to fix it."

Well, the failure of DEI and its being woven into the blueprint and infrastructure of organizations is that it's a forever commitment. It's not just (laughs) a, "Oh -" it's not like a product you create and you can have it on the shelves in six months. It's something that you have to, once you start to implement it, it is something that you have to practice and continue. For the longevity of the company, as well as in your own day to day life, we always should be walking in a practitioner mindset of: how can I increase my awareness? How can I create inclusion? And how can I make sure that whatever is happening like in my neighborhood or within my friendship group that things are equitable and that we're having these conversations of bridging the gap where I see misalignments.

I believe organizations miss the mark because you can throw a lot of money to something, but it's sort of like just putting a Band Aid on a gunshot wound. It's not going to change.

And I get really passionate about this too, so forgive me, it's just that I see that even though your question and the question I was asked in that panel I spoke on, they asked me if I saw things getting, different, or if they're going to get better - and I said I don't mean to sound like a pessimist, because I am an optimist I do feel like things will get better - but I unfortunately feel like by the time they get better, I would likely be retired in my villa in Barcelona, reading a newspaper with my cat because I always forget. (both laugh) It's like we only improve 1 percent towards, you know, awareness every five or seven years. It's not happening like it should happen.

I strongly believe that Generation Z, the generation that's coming after me, will be those change agents. Because a lot of the things that were really taboo or fearful - I think they have more of the confidence than I had to say, "This is who I am. These are the decisions I'm going to make, and I'm not going to take this anymore." Kind of thing. But unfortunately, again, by the time they do start to really get there and make their marks - like I said, I will still be doing the work, it's just that I won't be in a place of work because I do feel that it's going to take some years before we are there to the utopian like DEI culture that I feel like we all deserve to work in.

[00:11:55] Charlie Ocean: I'm wondering, like, as an employee, what is something a company can do where you feel like you're being included? And then what would be the difference of you feeling like you belong?

[00:12:09] Patrick Ladonis: That's a (Charlie laughs) million dollar question. That's a really good question. It starts with, and I guess the textbook part is the employee engagement survey. At least you're asking me my opinion; that's the operational, textbook way. Then you're going to present to me what the mass has stated, but if your questions aren't inclusive or open that up, then you're missing the mark. But I'm going to assume - and then just operate off the lens of, "Yes, we do engage our employees, we do a survey."

Within a company to make me feel seen, I feel like the ERGs, the employee resource groups helps, but, you know, fireside chats aren't just for us to talk to CEOs. You know, one thing I'm doing really different at my company now is we're going to highlight our founders, but we're also going to start to do fireside chats with the everyday employee, because we all have a story to tell. We all - every single person on this earth, we have a story.

And I think for me, being able to recognize, or if people start to say, "Hey, let's, let's turn the camera off of our, you know, successful CEOs and leaders that got there. Let's look at the person who that, you know, individual contributor or that manager who's striving somewhere or who may have grown up in an area that was typically a marginalized community or someone that did struggle with their sexuality or that's sort of developing and understanding it now. Let's highlight that. Let's give them space and let's rally around that person."

To me, that's when you're sort of transitioning from the textbook, employee engagement survey, let me show you the data, let me give you the themes, let me talk to you about what we are going to do, versus, you know what, we're going to put the camera on you and allow you to tell your story to the masses at the company. And this is how we're going to show up and support you.

[00:14:08] Charlie Ocean: What would a company have to start to do to create, I want to say like the psychological safety around that for an employee to share so vulnerably?

[00:14:19] Patrick Ladonis: I've always said, and I think you've heard this before too, it starts at the top. It really starts at the top, and I think it is with your C-suite, it is with your CEOs, but it also, it's the work of - if it's your chief diversity officer, or if it's your director in that diverse space, even if it's an HR leader - to really be intentional about how they show up for the C-suite and not just have a focal lens on, you know - companies that are diverse actually prove to be more successful.

So if we want to put a metric and money to it or business, let's look at that lens and really push senior leadership, the C-suite, to show up for things. And don't show up for them for performative, but be open, you know, in your town halls and your all-hands meetings, however you call them, let's talk about the things that are taboo. Let's talk about things that are impacting - if I'm making 900, 000 a year, I'd maybe so removed from what's it like to make 50, 000. Let's talk about that.

We get so caught up in a bubble and I think being in that bubble, it creates the division and it creates the misalignment and it further pushes us away from being able to get to that utopic or that utopian inclusive culture that we so deserve and could really thrive in.

The solution here is, I don't want to say forcing, but really holding accountability for the leaders of an organization to look at those values that they create for the company and then say, how do these values not just speak to you, how do these values speak to our customer support team or our recruiter, like to our, you know, executive assistants or someone else in a lesser position? How do these show up to them? How can we meet them in the middle to create that kind of partnership?

Cause it really should be a partnership, because there's an investment that the company does in its employee when they hire you, but there's also an investment that I'm giving my time to contribute to the company's bottom dollar and to that success; so meet me halfway. And that really needs to happen with leaders being taken to task on being able to connect with their employees.

[00:16:39] Charlie Ocean: Sometimes, and having been an employee at different 9-to-5 situations, both in tech, in nonprofit world - just, you know, corporate America - sometimes when I get really passionate about something, it can feel like change isn't happening soon enough. And I, I don't have a lot of great patience that I'm able to exercise (laughs) waiting for this change to come, regardless of whatever I'm trying to do. And sometimes it's because the organization is fearful of getting into this work because they're afraid about maybe, I don't know, what they might uncover about their practices, or I think they're also afraid of backlash.

So I guess I'm wondering, like, if there's like an employee listening right now who feels very passionately about getting something changed within their organization, what are some of the ways that the organization may best receive that feedback? And like, how could they present something so change can happen for the better?

[00:17:45] Patrick Ladonis: I believe that what a person would have to do, it's one of those things where you have to be very strategic. Who do I form my allyship with?

[00:17:56] Charlie Ocean: Yeah.

[00:17:57] Patrick Ladonis: Where are my allies? Is that in my HR business partner? Is that with my manager? Where does that exist? And once I find that, the psychological safety, can I be transparent? If that space is there, I believe, or I see that there's a huge opportunity here at this company, I sometimes don't feel seen. However, because again, thinking about too, that this is a place of business, people like solutions.

So if I'm coming to this HR business partner, if I'm coming to my manager and saying I'm not being seen, more than likely they're going to say, "Well, how would you like to be seen or help me understand?" "Well, you know what? This is what I'd like to see. This is how I would feel like I'm being seen. This is how I would feel included." And I'm providing you with some suggestions. I'm providing you with some plans.

But also in, in knowing that as a employee, I say this as a identifiable HR executive leader myself, I coined it as "leadership activism," where this can be for the employee, there's a form of being an activist that you have to bring into the workplace. You know, the workplace has evolved so much over the past 10 years, basically. I hate to say this, but it's the truth: things are political. Politics is a part of the world now and into the workplace.

There's a different dynamic because now a lot of people do work from home; so in that working from home, it revealed a lot. Especially from like neurodiverse, you know, people that don't want to be on camera. I don't want you to see me on the camera or I get anxiety if I feel like I have to be on camera. I may be ashamed. I don't want you to see the house that I live in, or maybe you can hear the noise.

There's so many things that evolve around that. And so because of that, there's that thing where in the workplace experience, it's been redefined. And so I have to go into it knowing as an employee, if I want to change it, I've got to be a change agent and that change agent, you may not want to call it activism, but I'm going to call it activism. (laughs) I've got to be willing to be that activist and go be that one person that's saying, "Hey, I don't feel seen. This is what I would like to do."

And I'm sure that by being that first person, you might be the first, but you won't be the last. It'll inspire some other employees to have your back and to help champion the things that you're trying to push forward in that organization.

[00:20:24] Charlie Ocean: I feel like there's so many other rabbit holes I could go down there, but I have so many other things I want to ask you, so switching gears, like really, really hard pivot (both laugh) - you've been with your husband for over 20 years now. I'm curious about how that relationship so far has impacted and changed your life. It's a long time to spend with somebody.

[00:20:47] Patrick Ladonis: It is, man. When I hear those 20 years, I'm just thinking, gosh, I don't even look a day over 25, (both laugh) but no, I'm kidding. I think, it's one of those things that I, this may sound really cheesy, but it's a love story, and it's still not over yet. Like, there's so many new chapters to be written.

I am lucky. I don't ever miscount the fact of how lucky that I am. that I did find a partner who we have a true friendship, like my best friend. We support each other. We go to bat for each other. And I think, you know, the true testament was during the pandemic when we, the first year of the pandemic, when we were stuck at home not knowing what was about to go on in the world. And It was just the two of us, it was kind of like being on one of those apocalyptic movies, but we were like, "Wow, if we had to be stuck with anyone, we'd love to be stuck with -" like, there were so many things we would create.

We created fake people in the kitchen, if a dish was left in the, (Charlie laughs) in the, sink, we're like, "Oh, that damn Carol, she left that thing." Like we were creating, (laughs) you know, workplace situations. Or we may, Chase each other through the house, like playing, like, it's just having that friend and that lover, that partnership, that confidant, someone who you can be vulnerable with and who will sort of be your live journal, who will hear your fears and also be there to hold you and support you.

I recognize how lucky and fortunate I am. I think we both see that in each other. And I think because that too is part of what makes me feel like a hero is because I know how lucky it is to not only being able to find someone to love, but someone who loves me back. Just loves me, my flaws and all, whether I wake up in the morning - because I'm a Gemini so, (Charlie laughs) it's true, there's a twin - whether I wake up in a really great mood, or if I wake up like, "Ugh, what's going on?" But having that person there who just loves me, I believe that is the secret sauce. And just the fact that we talk, and we have this rule, we never go to bed angry. And we never walk around the house without speaking.

We really come to the table and address problems and situations head-on. But now, here we are at 20 plus years, the problems we have now is most less like, what are we getting for dinner? Are we gonna watch "Succession"? Or are we gonna watch "Insecure"? It's stuff that can be easily resolved over a, you know, what's the game? (laughs)

[00:23:29] Charlie Ocean: Oh, Rock, Paper, Scissors?

[00:23:31] Patrick Ladonis: Rock, Paper, Scissors type of thing. It's definitely evolved from all of the other stuff.

[00:23:35] Charlie Ocean: I love that. But are there times where you're like, "I wanna rematch?" Has that ever come up?

[00:23:40] Patrick Ladonis: Continuously. (both laugh) Daily. Daily. Daily.

[00:23:44] Charlie Ocean: Like, that wasn't a rock at first, honey.

[00:23:46] Patrick Ladonis: That wasn't.

[00:23:46] Charlie Ocean: Yeah, I saw that. You changed that in the last second.

[00:23:49] Patrick Ladonis: Yeah, you changed your rules. (Charlie laughs)

[00:23:52] Charlie Ocean: Heteronormativity is such an overarching force in our society. So I'm curious about how y'all make decisions about your relationship in terms of, like, any next steps that you've taken or any milestones that you're looking forward to, because I don't think things we've been taught, perhaps, to like and want and strive for are inherently bad, but shoving that on people and saying this is how you have to live your life, is not the vibe.

Yeah, I guess, are there any parts of it that have been affirming and is there anything that you two have come up with that's been different that you, like, we may not usually see in a relationship?

[00:24:25] Patrick Ladonis: Oh, gosh. Let's see.

[00:24:27] Charlie Ocean: I mean, Rock, Paper, Scissors is a good start.

[00:24:29] Patrick Ladonis: Rock Paper Scissors is one. (both laugh) I think, two, we made a decision many years ago, probably about 15 years ago, that we weren't the parenting type.

[00:24:43] Charlie Ocean: Hmm.

[00:24:43] Patrick Ladonis: And that was a really good because I thought, "Oh, yeah, I do want to adopt kids." Then I went to Barcelona for two weeks with my best friend. And I said, "Oh, wait, if I had kids. I don't know if I'd be able to do this." I was like, "I would, but it wouldn't be the same." Then your trips start to turn into Walt Disney World. (Charlie laughs) They start to turn into all these other things. And I fell in love with the Zara store over there; I love to shop.

And I said, you know what? I'm going to own my agency of there's parts of me that are selfish. And my husband too, also, we both realized we both love to shop. We love clothing. He loves interior design, decorating trips and all this stuff. And we realized our life, we don't need. That part as being parents, we are fortunate enough to have family members who we are uncles to kids. And I think that, to me, that was a great moment for us we both were on the same page.

We'll just take wonderful trips, hang out on the beach, go here, go there, send pictures, Christmas cards, get them nice gifts to nieces and nephews and see them and whatnot. And I think that was a really big decision.

I also say that as we do get older, we do have those conversations. And I'm not, I was almost about to plug the movie, but I can say - cause it's a movie called "Spoiler Alert" that we just watched on Sunday with Sally Fields and, I can't think of his name, but he's from Big Bang Theory - but watching that movie, it was Sunday morning. Now, Charlie, it's only two movies that I watched that have made me just bawl. This movie had me just a wreck. I was an emotional wreck. He was an emotional wreck. We're in the bed whole Sunday morning, gone to hell because we cried. (both laugh)

But we talked about being together now 20 years and you know, I'm a man in my 40s, we're - in my 40s. What does that "next" look like? So we started talking about, like, we live in Atlanta now, but do we want to retire here? And, like, we started to think about maybe moving somewhere like Tennessee, Chattanooga, or like, planning for the future now is something that we definitely do a lot more. Double checking insurance policies, just making sure wills are updated. And that too is like, I think as the "Spoiler Alert" movie is still on it, it's scary, but then it's beautiful at the same time, because I look at it as, you know, if - because again, the life cycle, you will die, eventually we all will.

We know that we've had an amazing sort of love story, but those are like the big buckets, the decision that we both had to not have children and the planning of the next phase of our life when it comes to the retirement. Do we want to continue to live in Atlanta? And what does those next, you know, life decisions that come with getting older look like?

[00:27:46] Charlie Ocean: One of your life decisions was that y'all were on "House Hunters." (both laugh) Now I couldn't track down the episode, but is there anything you can share about that experience?

[00:27:56] Patrick Ladonis: Well, I will tell you all, and it's coming on again next month, actually, you'll get to catch it.

[00:28:01] Charlie Ocean: Oh, okay.

[00:28:01] Patrick Ladonis: Yeah, "Hollywood Glam in Atlanta." It, it is the fact that that was something that my husband really wanted. I will definitely go on record and say I was not an HGTV viewer. (both laugh) I was not, but I knew that was something that was important to him. And because again, the whole film stuff that I love, I Googled to find out how we could get on the show.

Coincidentally, we were in the process of looking for a new home. It was almost like it was just meant to happen because it's - literally, I filled out the application, he didn't even know I did it, and I sent them some pictures they wanted to see us. And I wrote kind of our story, which again, the love story, and it was coming up on our 20 year anniversary or whatnot. And the producer sent an email and then I was like, "Okay, I can tell him."

So I says, all right, I said, "Babe, are you sitting down?" (Charlie laughs) I was, I was in California for work and he said, "Yeah, what's wrong?" I said, "We might be on House Hunters." He was like, "No way!" (both laugh) I was like, "Yeah, yeah, yeah." So I sent him the email and then we met with the producer a week later because she wanted us to be together in the same room because I wasn't, I was in California.

We met with the producer and the next day after we met the producer, she sends an email and she said, "I showed you all to our team and there were no notes. There were no production notes. They were like, Patrick and his husband are perfect." And then the process began for us to be on House Hunters.

And it was so exciting because I knew for me, I knew this was something that he was gonna just love because he loves the show and watches everything HGTV. It was an adventure. It was, again, another adventure for us because It was almost, you know, HGTV, that's a real show. So it's like doing reality show, (Charlie laughs) which I will selfishly say, I love reality TV.

But it made us just realize the dynamics of our partnership. And so many people saw that episode and also spoiler alert with the show - we filmed like my mom, we recorded some stuff with my mom and with one of my really good friends and they cut them out when they did the editing part and they cut them out. And they said, "Because you and Robert were so amazing-" or "you all had such a great energy, we didn't need the extra, like your mom's part or your best friend's part. None of that was necessary because you two just held the attention of everyone during the edits." It was like, "Just keep it on those two."

And there you have it.

[00:30:40] Charlie Ocean: Gosh. So when I think of HGTV and when I think of "House Hunters" and any iteration of it, I feel like there's this unofficial bingo card of the things that, like, people are always caught saying. I'm curious what yours was. Like, did you say "open concept" too many times? Or, like, was there something you kept finding yourself saying about the spaces that you were, like, checking out?

[00:31:01] Patrick Ladonis: My buzzword was "modern" (Charlie laughs) because it was called, it was called "Hollywood Glam in Atlanta." My husband grew up on a farm, I grew up in (laughs) Chicago, the city. So that was a great story dynamic.

Like he was fine with a, like a farmhouse, a bungalow. When I was 18, I got to go to LA for the first time and fell in love with LA. I wanted Malibu, like, palaces. I wanted a white house. I wanted a rooftop where I could host a party. I wanted all the glamorous stuff that comes with Hollywood. So to me, that was our story. You know, our realtor was trying to find a happy medium; a little bit of Hollywood glam, a little bit of traditional with the farmhouse.

My husband was like, "Oh, I want a yard." I was like, "For what? (Charlie laughs) I'm not buying a yard." You know, it was just one of those. And I was like, I don't do that. Like I wasn't going to do that. So.

[00:31:53] Charlie Ocean: Right.

[00:31:54] Patrick Ladonis: It was one of those fun moments.

[00:31:56] Charlie Ocean: You initially, cause you know, we're working up to your story of how you eventually came out on a larger scale, but you initially code switched about your husband for a long time. You would call him like your "partner" and things like that. Did you have conversations? Like, did he even know you were doing that? Or, like, how did that happen?

[00:32:16] Patrick Ladonis: He did. He did know. There's certain moments, real pertinent moments, I remember specifically. And I am now in a place where I definitely don't live in regret, but that was something that, I mean, I've had to move past it.

[00:32:30] Charlie Ocean: Yeah.

[00:32:30] Patrick Ladonis: But I remember at my job - and when I say at my job, not at where I'm at currently, this was years ago, so lemme put that context there - it was years ago where I remembered hearing someone on a leadership team make a statement about gay people. And I remembered, "Nope, not gonna, no, not doing it."

And that, to me, caused me to really step back and I would never call his (husband's) name. I would use other pronouns or be like, you know, like, I would really say like "them" or "they're coming." I never wanted to identify it because I was afraid of what could happen. So I kept it sheltered. And I remember telling him one day when I was talking to (laughs) my manager, I think his voice was in the background, and my manager said, "Oh, do you need to go?" And I remember I said, "Oh, well, that's my roommate."

And I remembered after that call, I'm sure it hurt him, but it hurt me so much that I actually did that. It's not my roommate; this is my lover. This is the man that I love and all this stuff, but he was okay that I did it.

His company was a little bit different. They're a little bit more relaxed. He was like, I get it, it's fine. Certain events, he knew that his job, I could go with him, but mine, I just wasn't comfortable, because back then I was really about trying to make it up the corporate ladder kind of thing. And I was like, and if they find out or see this, I don't want to get you know, labeled like - thank God I'm so different now - (laughs) didn't want to get labeled or caught up in that.

And it was really difficult because it almost became, almost like acting, you're playing this character. You're right, the code-switching part, being cognizant of making sure what names you say. I never would leave my phone just unattended. And this, of course, this is way before the pandemic, so, you know, at your desk, because you don't want anyone to see it. Like, it was just so much that I had to be aware of. I didn't really talk about what trips I may be taking because I didn't have to try to think, well, "Shit, how do I say -" like, I wouldn't show pictures from vacation. It was so much.

I can't believe for a couple of years that I actually, looking back now, I'm like, "How the fuck did I do this? This was some grown-ass man doing this stuff." But it was kind of like the circumstances and where I was at, at that point is kind of why that was happening. And I just, ugh, such a blemish, but it's a part of the book. It's a chapter, so -

[00:35:03] Charlie Ocean: Yeah, no, I've been in a relationship like that before and it's really tricky because like everyone's hurting in that scenario. So, like, as the person who was being hid, like, it hurt, and I also understood why my partner was doing that, and we had a lot of conversations about it, but she also was really good about never misgendering me, either. I don't think that was easy for her, so I will say that.

However, did anyone ever, like, try to pry, or did anyone even notice that you were code-switching?

[00:35:35] Patrick Ladonis: Oh my gosh, the prime, (both laugh) let me tell you.

[00:35:40] Charlie Ocean: Oh no!

[00:35:41] Patrick Ladonis: Let me tell you Charlie, the Wendy Williams around the corner. (both laugh)

[00:35:45] Charlie Ocean: Oh my gosh.

[00:35:46] Patrick Ladonis: How you doing in your business? Yes, yes, yes. (Charlie laughs) Like, I remember people asking why I didn't have a wedding band on or they'd want to see a picture of who I was dating. Again, times have evolved. People definitely aren't that comfortable - wouldn't dare do that now in the workplace. Again, this was years ago.

So it was definitely those kind of questions. When you go on a company trip, I remember going on a company trip and some of the men of the company was like, "Hey, you want to come to the strip club with us and get some women, find out, da da da-" and I'm just like, (laughs) "I have a headache. I'm going to stay in my room." (both laugh)

But yeah, it was definitely a lot of probing into that because that was the one thing I'm like - again, not to discredit people that I work with, so many of them were amazing people. It's just that they would show pictures of their kids and their weddings and life events; I did not. I chose not to do that because in my team, there was someone on my team that suspected and she told me, even when I did finally come out and tell them, she's like, "I love you so much Patrick." She's like, I would have never told, but she's like, "I knew that you were struggling with something because you just couldn't fully, there was something holding you back from fully connecting with us."

[00:37:03] Charlie Ocean: Yeah.

[00:37:03] Patrick Ladonis: But once, you know, once we got married, I, I was like, "Nope, I'm telling; I'm telling people."

[00:37:09] Charlie Ocean: Well, and it's, it's also perfectly valid if you wanted to keep your private life private. Cause for some people, they just want to clock in, clock out, leave work at work. They're not there to make friends, like, you know, whatever their motivations are. I mean, at the end of the day, we have to fight to have a roof over our heads. And so, yeah, but like, even if that were the reason, you know, like I would respect that cause those are your boundaries, but yeah, people get nosy. (laughs)

[00:37:34] Patrick Ladonis: That's it. (laughs) To Wendy Williams!

[00:37:38] Charlie Ocean: Yeah. Well, you produce and star in a web series on YouTube called "Scales," and it was a major turning point in your journey because your premiere was your public coming out. So Yeah, I guess, like, what do you want to share around that?

[00:37:54] Patrick Ladonis: To visually paint this for people listening, if you think of Diana Ross's song, "I'm Coming Out," that's what I think of every time I think about that premiere and the fact that so many people, there were probably over 400 people that came to that premiere.

[00:38:09] Charlie Ocean: Wow.

[00:38:09] Patrick Ladonis: And a lot of them (laughs) a lot of them did not know. And when the opening scene, I'm literally in the opening scene, I'm with a man. (laughs) And people were kind of like, "What? What's happening?" Because I remember looking at people across, I was like, what's happening here? And then as the show progressed, I kissed a man and they were just like, "Oh man." But at the end of the premiere, people stood up, they clapped.

And people ask questions, you know, you do Q& A after people screen a project. And I remember being on the stage and I said, "This was kind of my creative way of saying to those of you who did not know: yes, I am gay and here's my husband." And at the time, this was 2018, so I was like, "This is my husband of 16 years." Well, partners; we didn't get married until 2016. We've been together since 2002.

And I remember people were just like, they didn't say, "Oh my God," but you could see, you look and you see people saying it.

[00:39:14] Charlie Ocean: Right.

[00:39:14] Patrick Ladonis: But it was such a release though, after that moment. One, I was proud of the project I was proud of what story we had told, but then I was proud that I was finally, finally living my truth because I knew that after this premiere, it was going to be on YouTube for anyone to see. And I literally - and that's when I adapted the zero fucks given about anything. I says, "I'm here."

My mom loved it. My aunt - having the family support too was an extra, for me, even though they had, they knew years ago, but just having them to support the project and supporting where I was going to be at this journey, made it all. After that, I was, it was like Patrick 2. 0, Charlie. Like I became - that confidence. All the things was really fully, who I was supposed to be.

It was truly a memorable moment that I'll never, ever, ever forget. It's etched in my brain.

[00:40:12] Charlie Ocean: I'm curious how you would describe it to people. And if there were any shows or movies that inspired, especially the style of it. Yeah, if you could share that with us.

[00:40:25] Patrick Ladonis: Yes. I always say that "Scales" is the show if "Queer as Folk," not the reboot, the one from like 2000 that came on on Showtime, I believe. If "Queer as Folk," "Insecure," "Noah's Ark," had a threesome, (Charlie laughs) and it produced a baby, (laugsh) and it produced a baby, "Scales" would be the baby. "Scales" is the baby because it was birthed from the original, the "Queer as Folk" when - I guess I won't say "the original," cause the original "Queer as Folk" was the UK version, but the American version that came out.

"Insecure," because "Insecure" to me is there's the element of people of color, but then there's also the element of what Issa Rae does as a creator, is she introduced a lot of independent music. All of the music in "Scales" is from unknown artists. It's people that's independent artists and that beauty.

And then the "Queer as Folk" is it trying to be really, to me at that time, when I was watching "Queer as Folk" as a young person figuring things out, it was so ahead of its time. And it was unapologetically freedom in the sexuality and just all the things, the drama, there was lots of drama happening on that show too, outside of the clubbing and all that.

And I was like, putting that into this show, my little baby called "Scales," I hope that it would be this landmark that even when I'm not here on this planet anymore, that the next generation go on YouTube or discover it and be like, "Yes," at one point people were - we were creating spaces for you. And by then it probably - I'm hopeful that it won't matter, but then at least it'll be something that artifacts for people to see.

Season one, I was very insecure because I was nervous. I kept thinking about "What are people going to say?" So I think I was a little bit guarded and being able to truly let loose and play the character because I was so scared. I was like, "Oh, this thing is going to go out on YouTube. What are people going to think about me?" And I feel like that was such a disservice to the actors that I was playing against.

I also believe that for some of the actorsthat are in "scales," I believe that's the "aha" for me, is that some of them identified, I guess you could say identified as heterosexual, but they said that it was something in the script and meeting me in person that just made them want to go on this journey. And there was such awareness that some of them got by - the season one will always be, it created a family. Like we're still such a close knit family with them. And it was so many conversations we would have, not just talking from a script, but just as a individual about really understanding sexuality and just the LGBTQ+ lifestyle.

And the fact that I, I mean, again, I champion all types of content. But I have to be very honest, too, that sometimes if you were to google "LGBTQ web series," they were also sometimes very, very sexually explicit. You saw a lot of that stuff. I just kind of did my homework too before starting to get into this realm of content creation. And I was like, I don't want that to be all people see us as. And so I wanted to do a different approach with the storytelling and the space.

And I know that some of the actors who were, didn't even think they were going to get the part, it was like, "Oh, we thought you were going to go with someone else." They were so pleased that it was art that I was making. And when people see, plugging this, cause season four is done and season four will be coming out in a couple of weeks, some of our actors, because we're in such a, we know each other, we're familiar with each other - there's a lot that - you're going to be in for a surprise viewers. There's a lot that happens that I was I - there was an actor, I'll just say this, that I play with as an actor- oh wait, should I say "play with"? But yeah, as an actor that I'm playing in a scene with.

[00:44:18] Charlie Ocean: Mm-hmm.

[00:44:18] Patrick Ladonis: Where because the actor was willing to go there, artistically, for what the scene calls, we had to do this a couple of times because I was freaking out. I was like, "Are you sure you're okay? Are you sure?" Because this actor is actually, you know, identifies as, you know, heterosexual. And he was like, "Yes." He's like, "We've been on this journey. He's like, so it's the art." And he's like, "It's the beauty of what you're telling." He's like, "Let's, we're here." And, one that was like a rebirth in myself, but - Charlie, season four is fire. (laughs)

[00:44:58] Charlie Ocean: Well, hey, I mean even season one has its steamy moments, but I love that you also balanced it. Like y'all always got smoothies. I was like "Does Patrick really like his smoothie?" (laughs)

[00:45:11] Patrick Ladonis: That was me keeping it -

[00:45:11] Charlie Ocean: It was cute. It was cute.

[00:45:13] Patrick Ladonis: It's like a tongue in cheek cuteness. Even when people come into the door so much, it was a combination of a throwback to, like, "Seinfeld," the show about nothing, and just a little bit of me saying, before we had cell phones, that people could just show up at your place. Like, why didn't no one text? To be like, "Hey, it's 2018. No one should just drop by." I was like, let's just have a little fun. It's the day that everybody - it's the revolving door episode. I think people just kept coming by Remy's place and I was like, I wanted to do that, to kind of pay a little bit homage to the "Seinfeld" and to the days of when we didn't rely on technology so much to connect with people.

[00:45:53] Charlie Ocean: Yeah, because I don't want to like give a lot away either, but the last thing I'll say is, you know, there is this cute part where you meet someone and you're hitting it off and you explicitly say, like, "Call me, don't text me, call me."

[00:46:04] Patrick Ladonis: Don't text.

[00:46:05] Charlie Ocean: Yeah, so, but really cute. How has the web series impacted you now that it's in its final stages?

[00:46:15] Patrick Ladonis: Charlie, A.) (sighs) - Charlie it's really, it's made me a better person. And I say that because I always tell people "I'm a work in progress." Like I am a decent human being, but there's always room to grow. So creating the show made me eventually - further build that muscle of confidence. Being able to be passionate about my work, even my professional career, it made me show up even differently because I was like, I created an entire freaking web series.

Like, I had the production team, location scouting, producing, and fundraising, crowdfunding. I mean, season one, we filmed it for $5,000 bucks. Season two, three, we did it at $15,000, $20,000. Like, it just -

[00:47:02] Charlie Ocean: Wow.

[00:47:02] Patrick Ladonis: Kept changing to increase off of crowdfunding and donations from people. And I was like, "Oh, I kind of know my shit." so it's changed me in that regards.

And also the fact that I don't look at the show as like, "Oh, it's this low budget web series." Each season, the quality of it got better because we got better equipment. We had more dollars to use and we increased our platform. We're not just on YouTube, we're on Reverie TV, which is the second largest LGBTQ+ streaming platform.

So I'm proud of that and I'm glad - I'm not going to say I'm glad - but everything has an ending. I always knew it was going to end at five.

[00:47:40] Charlie Ocean: Yeah.

[00:47:40] Patrick Ladonis: The way it ends, I had already written how it was going to end in 2017. Six years ago, I had written how this end was going to happen and we're almost there. It's like training for the marathon. And so I will be glad to cross that threshold, because I hope that that final scene for people watching it, they'll be able to be like, "This is what the show has been about." Because it tells you kind of at the end what "Scales" and what the show really has been about, at the end.

[00:48:13] Charlie Ocean: Something you do is give back and as a result you've joined like a bajillion mentorship programs. (laughs) that's my language, not yours. Can you tell us more about your involvement with these and who the programs are for?

[00:48:27] Patrick Ladonis: Sure. So, gosh, I've done - you're right, I have done quite a few, but it's like organic for me. It's just natural, who I am. I've done volunteer work with Lost and Found, which is important. They really take in, - you know, which I didn't even have that kind of awareness or education - a lot of, kids, when they come out to their parents, 12 and 13 year olds, they're families that actually put their kids out of their homes. And Lost and Found helps create shelters and places for them to go and provides clothing and job training for them. Or they may run away because they're not accepted or their parents try to send them to a conversion camp.

So I volunteered with that program for years and given money and even the companies I've worked for ensure that they make donations because if they match you doing that for - that's been one, Big Brothers, Big Sisters. The City of Atlanta Mayor Andrew Dickinson - Dickens, has made a pledge for the City of Atlanta with LGBTQ mentoring other LGBTQ young adults.

Of course, my hand is up. Of course, I'm doing it because I think I know that it's important to be able to give them that space, give them that support, do the job, interviewing, training and coaching and being additional support system for them outside of their friends and family. And of course, being paired with someone who is a little bit seasoned like myself, there is wisdom that I can share that maybe their friends in their own group can't give them.

And I love being able to I don't even look at it as, like, giving back. I look at it as giving forward because I'm helping pour into this generation that is gonna help change the world. And if I can do that one queer at a time, as myself (laughs) as a gay person, that makes me feel good. Like, I never complain about the days I have to go volunteer or when a mentee reaches out to me because it's what we should do.

You know, I wish I would have had that when I was coming up, especially someone that identified as part of the LGBTQ+ community. I wish I would have had that. And what's a few hours a week that can change a person's life? So being active in that.

I also do, gosh, there's quite a few. I will just randomly sign up for stuff too. I'm sorry to go on. (laughs)

[00:50:43] Charlie Ocean: You do. No, I, this is the same. We are the same. My list is long. Yeah.

[00:50:49] Patrick Ladonis: Yeah, I just do, anytime there's volunteer work to give back to young people, those in need, specifically those in the LGBTQ+ community, I'm all for it. Also, I want to plug Atlanta Angels. I'm on the board of directors for Atlanta Angels that provides foster care for young people. And of the DEI board director member talking about, how are we pairing up our LGBTQ+ kids in this foster care system? How are we providing coaching and support for them?

Also, because we also know too, foster parents may not understand how to talk to someone who is trans or who's trying to understand, "This is who I am. Don't call me by my dead name." Like helping them understand that that's important. That's why we have, you know, the suicide rates. And I can talk about this so much because it really gets me going because I - there's so much work that, again, continues that needs the activism, the leadership activism, (laughs) that we all have to do. We have to play a part in that volunteering.

And so I love being able to give back and giving my time, providing that time. Again, it's paying it forward, not paying it back. It's paying it forward to the next generation so that they will hopefully model what I'm doing and do it too. So it continues and continues until we're at a point to where we're just who we are, which we are fabulous, all of us, you know, but the LGBTQ+ community, we're just like, you know, we're kind of a different layer. We're the bomb. That's it. (Charlie laughs)

[00:52:24] Charlie Ocean: Yeah, I'm thinking, so I used to be part of a program in my early 20s called LifeWorks, and then it joined the LA LGBT Center and it was Lifeworks Mentoring. So I've been both a mentee and a mentor. And it's a really interesting dynamic, because I think as an adult wanting, like you said, to pay it forward, you go in expecting, like, "I'm going to be giving to this young person" and then you don't realize how much you're going to get out of it.

So I'm curious, like, what's something that surprised you that you've gotten from these kinds of. Mentorship relationships.

[00:53:01] Patrick Ladonis: Oh, wow.

[00:53:02] Charlie Ocean: Other than probably new slang, that you're like, "What now? "

[00:53:05] Patrick Ladonis: That's what I was about to say. (both laugh) They keep me young and hip, and I will never apologize for that, because I'm like, what? What are you - I remember the first time someone, one of my mentees, was like, "Oh, you know that's Gucci, right?" And I was like, "The designer? I was like, I don't think so." They're just like, "Patrick, 'Gucci,' meaning it's Gucci, meaning it's good. It's the bomb." I was like, "Oh my god." And here I am being the older person, I was like, let me put this in my phone so I don't forget and I can use it.

[00:53:33] Charlie Ocean: Urban Dictionary. I swear to god, when I graduated from my bachelor's and my master's in social work and I started working with youth, and I worked with him for a while, because then I also worked at like the Trevor Project, I just had to go to Urban Dictionary. I didn't even like consult all of my grad school books that cost me hundreds and hundreds of dollars. I just was spending all this time in Urban Dictionary going, "Alright, what is this now?"

Because you know, when I'm going into a classroom of high schoolers, and I have someone shouting at me like, "Your shoes are on fleek." I have to act very appropriately in that situation and not let them know, like, (laughs) I don't know what's going on here. I'm glad I knew what that meant. But I was like, I thought that was for eyebrows. It's for shoes now? What's that? I'm so confused. This is evolving too quickly for me.

[00:54:13] Patrick Ladonis: Same. Same. It's really getting the unexpected thank you or the texts that say, "Hey, school today was kind of hard, but then I thought about something you said. And I was like, Oh, Patrick said it's going to be all right." Like it's so small gems of moments like that. And I mean, I keep some saved from people I've mentored years ago that I'm still in touch with. It was like, "Hey, I thought about you the other day, or your name came up. And I said, someone that made a difference. It was just the time that you gave for me to talk about some struggles I was having." I am a mushy person (laughs) as opposed to - as I said, I was crying watching "Spoiler Alert" - but it warmed my heart just to know that these individuals are going to be okay and that I had little to do with it, I just was able to be there to listen and to support and to show up.

And people don't realize how important it is: just show up for - people just want someone to show up for them and know that you have their back. And that to me, it's moments like those moments why I keep certain messages saved and I even transfer them to my computer because I never want to lose them because it keeps me just humbled and just knowing that this is why I don't mind - it's part of who I am. I love helping.

[00:55:31] Charlie Ocean: Before you started, was there ever a moment of, "Wait, oh shit, this is real. I'm being matched with someone. Am I gonna fuck this up?" Or did you have any, like, doubt, or, yeah?

[00:55:41] Patrick Ladonis: Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. (Charlie laughs) 100%. And it was one of those things, too, I compare it to how when first-time parents bring home the baby, like, "Oh god, I don't wanna drop the baby, I don't wanna mess up." I was like, "I don't wanna say the wrong thing. I don't want to give misguided advice." It's creating a list of don't-s, like "Patrick, don't curse, even though you curse a lot. Don't say that this is gonna happen."

But then I, again, probably about four months in, I did realize I have to be authentic and be real. And I have to talk about - life is real, you can't have it in a bubble. There are some really effed up people that may try to see you differently or may try to attack you. But be comfortable in your own skin and know who you are and what you are not. You know, so it's that kind of thing.

But yes, for sure. The very first time I signed up to mentor, I did have my own perception. I was like, "Oh, this will probably be 3 hours a week. I probably just -" I thought I was going to get like a guide, like a handbook that would be to tell me, "Well, this is what I was supposed to do." But that wasn't the case, so I had to be just me and just go with it.

And my first mentee and I, and this was back in 20 - oh, this was 2009. (both laugh) So I was just like 20-something. So it was like 2009 and just the evolution, because again, he's, gosh, how old is he now? He's 28 because I think he was 13.

[00:57:14] Charlie Ocean: Wow.

[00:57:15] Patrick Ladonis: That makes me feel even older. But yes, who has gone on to go to college and is in grad school now. And it's just like, Charlie, it's really those moments, but yeah, I was scared to death that I was going to screw it up and probably not get invited to be a part of the mentor program again. Or not want to do any type of mentoring with my community because I was like, "Oh, I'm messing it up. I'm not getting it right. I'm not connecting the right way." And totally complete opposite.

And now it's like, there's a trade off. They keep me young, keep me on trend to know what's the right, what music is out. You know, and it's also a historical lesson for them because they were like, "Oh, well, you were born in the 1900s, something new -

[00:57:56] Charlie Ocean: Oh my god.

[00:57:56] Patrick Ladonis: That they love to do. It's like, "Oh, Patrick, you were born in the 1900s." They love that, which I know, it's like, it's cool. But I always have to know our music was better. And I tell them, "you're welcome." And they're like, "What do you mean, you're welcome?" I was like, "My generation gave you Beyonce. We gave you Beyonce. (Charlie laughs) Don't ever forget that. We gave you Beyonce." And then it's like, mic drop. (Charlie laughs)

[00:58:21] Charlie Ocean: What's one allyship tip you'd like everyone listening to consider?

[00:58:25] Patrick Ladonis: This is a tip, and it's a mantra of mine: let your authenticity be the fabric of your life. Be you, uniquely you, and always you. I've started saying that about four years ago to some of my mentees, just talking about the beauty of you. Be your authentic self. Don't change you or just you for anyone else.

[00:58:55] Charlie Ocean: Patrick, thank you so much for coming on and sharing so much about you and your story and the work that you do. I really appreciate it. And I know that I learned a lot. I will say Patrick, you did break my heart. (laughs) I mean, I've already told him this, but I'd watched all three seasons of "Scales" that are currently out and we had our conversation a few months ago, in like September.

And I was like, okay, to wait for season four, like to wait until November, I can do that, but then when I reached out to him before publishing this episode, he let me know that seasons four and five are not going to come out now until next year, and I was devastated. (laughs) So Patrick, the audacity, how dare you? You, you pull me into this show and now I have to wait another year to get the final two seasons.

But I will be sure to link to "Scales" if you want to check it out and I encourage you to do so. And don't forget to register for the PFLAG Los Angeles Trans and Nonbinary Joy Panel.

All right, here are the final three self-reflection questions:

4. What values do I want my workplace to have?

5. Does my workplace have DEI initiatives in place or any planned for the future?

6. Has my workplace reduced any DEI efforts they may have committed to back in 2020? If so, what can I do about it?

Visit AllyshipIsAVerb.Com for any resources and a transcript of the episode.

And remember, sometimes allyship means to be authentically you.